Beyond ABS is MSC

[Stig / Major Tom]

Still lots of discussion and disagreement about the use of ABS on motorcycles and scooters....
So, what are the thoughts about the Bosch Motorcycle Stability Control system that is being installed on some KTM bikes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlsC6P9Ogfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CDN6el4zM

When I was looking to buy a new scooter I considered only those scooters which had ABS. If MSC had been available for scooters - I would have shopped only those scooters.
 
ABS helps when braking in a straight line in the wet - while MSC adds the same ability to braking in a curve, wet OR dry! Amazing.

I am not clear why - but from what I've read the only scooters or motorcycles which could even remotely tolerate heavy braking while in a corner were ones with "hub-center" front suspensions - as used on Vespas (and some bikes in years past)

Since most of the fatal and non-fatal, single vehicle, Harley wrecks around here are happening when the biker runs off the road in a curve - H.D. would have more repeat customers if they secretly installed MSC on their bikes. More guys would still be around to come back and buy another one.

I'm sure some will feel this is unwarranted interferance with their sport - but, like helmet laws, it will save lives if ever implemented on all bikes (in Europe ABS is mandated on even small scooters).

Without MSC, if you discover you're going too fast (say after entering an unfamiliar decreasing-radius corner) and apply the brakes in a corner the bike will want to pitch upright and cause you to run wide in the corner....heading for the guard rail - or tree, or an oncoming Buick. Or the rear will let go, and either lay you down or pitch you over the bars.

A coworker told me that helmets are dangerous - his cousin "was killed because he was wearing a helmet".
The Good Lord gave us free will.....and I suspect He tries not to watch what some of us do with it.
Stig
 

[2wheelfun]

The solution for the HD crowd is to brake BEFORE going into the turn.

[BettinANDlosing]

What happens if I want to go full top gear and turn the traction control off?!?!?! My world would end!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Obama!

[ScooterWolf]

I think it's a great idea as long as it does stay in the background and doesn't interfere, or distract from the freedom of the ride. How much more expensive is it than ABS? Is it cheaper, or the same?

-Wolf

[AMAC1680]

The solution for the HD crowd is to brake BEFORE going into the turn.

That would help.
ABS and MSC all good but I'll never be a fan of the "it saves lives" line for mandates. It will save some lives.
There are folks that admittedly have a large number of panic stops WITH ABS.

The day will come when the ABS doesn't save them. Could it be they put too much stock in the technology saving them ? Who knows.


AMAC

[NeoGenesisMax]

Piaggio BV 350 has both everywhere but the states.

[klaviator]

Still lots of discussion and disagreement about the use of ABS on motorcycles and scooters....
So, what are the thoughts about the Bosch Motorcycle Stability Control system that is being installed on some KTM bikes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlsC6P9Ogfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CDN6el4zM

When I was looking to buy a new scooter I considered only those scooters which had ABS. If MSC had been available for scooters - I would have shopped only those scooters.
 
ABS helps when braking in a straight line in the wet - while MSC adds the same ability to braking in a curve, wet OR dry! Amazing.

I am not clear why - but from what I've read the only scooters or motorcycles which could even remotely tolerate heavy braking while in a corner were ones with "hub-center" front suspensions - as used on Vespas (and some bikes in years past)

Since most of the fatal and non-fatal, single vehicle, Harley wrecks around here are happening when the biker runs off the road in a curve - H.D. would have more repeat customers if they secretly installed MSC on their bikes. More guys would still be around to come back and buy another one.

I'm sure some will feel this is unwarranted interferance with their sport - but, like helmet laws, it will save lives if ever implemented on all bikes (in Europe ABS is mandated on even small scooters).

Without MSC, if you discover you're going too fast (say after entering an unfamiliar decreasing-radius corner) and apply the brakes in a corner the bike will want to pitch upright and cause you to run wide in the corner....heading for the guard rail - or tree, or an oncoming Buick. Or the rear will let go, and either lay you down or pitch you over the bars.

A coworker told me that helmets are dangerous - his cousin "was killed because he was wearing a helmet".
The Good Lord gave us free will.....and I suspect He tries not to watch what some of us do with it.
Stig

Most of what is in this post is incorrect.  Here are some facts on braking:

The first and most important fact is that for any given tire and road surface, a given amount of traction is available.  If your bike is upright, then all of that traction is available for braking.  If you are in a curve then cornering forces are using some of that traction.  The remainder is available for braking.  If you are only leaned a little on a clean dry road you can still apply the brakes pretty hard.  If you are leaned to the max, there may not be any traction available for braking and no type of abs, MSC or any other electronic aid can change that.  However, few scooters can lean far enough to use up all of their tires traction on a good road surface.  Most run out of clearance before they run out of traction.  Of course a slippery surface can change that.

The statement that applying brakes in mid corner will pitch upright is not really correct and also has nothing to do with ABS and MSC.  Some bikes tend to stand up when the brakes are applied and some do not.  This is a result of tire profile, steering geometry and other factors, not ABS or MSC.

Also, regular ABS does not stop working in a curve.  However, regular ABS is calibrated to work when upright.  It will still work in a slight curve but the further you are leaned over, the more likely that your tires might slide before ABS Kicks in.  What the new systems do is recalibrate the ABS to account for the reduced traction due to being leaned over.  No doubt it is a great upgrade to standard ABS but you bike might still try to stand upright and run wide when the brakes are applied.  Applying a little more countersteering force will solve that issue. 

I have owned numerous bikes over the years.  Only a few would try to stand up under braking and in most cases changing to a different front tire would mostly get rid of that.  I also regularly practice braking in curves.  It's not a big deal if you understand what is involved and practice.  If you know that your bike will try to stand up on the brakes, you can be prepared for it.  If you never tried braking in a curve before it will catch you by surprise.  My Super 8 does not try to stand up under braking, my Aprilia only a little.

The biggest advantage of ABS and related systems is that they allow riders to brake close to the threshold of their tires traction limit without going over it and therefore crashing.  However, they cannot change the laws of physics and it is still dependent on the rider to not put him/herself in a situation that no amount of electronic aids can save him/her from.

[klaviator]

I think it's a great idea as long as it does stay in the background and doesn't interfere, or distract from the freedom of the ride. How much more expensive is it than ABS? Is it cheaper, or the same?

-Wolf

It's doesn't replace ABS, it's an addition to it so it adds to the prices.  At this point it is normally an expensive option available only on high end, expensive bikes.  That was the case with ABS as well when it was introduced.  I'm pretty sure it will soon be more widely available and the price will come down considerably as well.  I won't be surprised if it becomes standard on most bikes in the not to distant future.

I don't see this as subtracting from the ride but like any system it is not foolproof.  My concern is that many riders will use this as a crutch and never learn how to use their brakes properly.  Of course, even before ABS and MSC most riders never really learned how to use their brakes anyway.  How many out there still don't use their front brakes because it will "pitch you over the handlebars"

[Stig / Major Tom]

Most of what is in this post is incorrect.  Here are some facts on braking:

The first and most important fact is that for any given tire and road surface, a given amount of traction is available.  If your bike is upright, then all of that traction is available for braking.  If you are in a curve then cornering forces are using some of that traction.  The remainder is available for braking.  If you are only leaned a little on a clean dry road you can still apply the brakes pretty hard.  If you are leaned to the max, there may not be any traction available for braking and no type of abs, MSC or any other electronic aid can change that.  However, few scooters can lean far enough to use up all of their tires traction on a good road surface.  Most run out of clearance before they run out of traction.  Of course a slippery surface can change that.

The statement that applying brakes in mid corner will pitch upright is not really correct and also has nothing to do with ABS and MSC.  Some bikes tend to stand up when the brakes are applied and some do not.  This is a result of tire profile, steering geometry and other factors, not ABS or MSC.

Also, regular ABS does not stop working in a curve.  However, regular ABS is calibrated to work when upright.  It will still work in a slight curve but the further you are leaned over, the more likely that your tires might slide before ABS Kicks in.  What the new systems do is recalibrate the ABS to account for the reduced traction due to being leaned over.  No doubt it is a great upgrade to standard ABS but you bike might still try to stand upright and run wide when the brakes are applied.  Applying a little more countersteering force will solve that issue. 

I have owned numerous bikes over the years.  Only a few would try to stand up under braking and in most cases changing to a different front tire would mostly get rid of that.  I also regularly practice braking in curves.  It's not a big deal if you understand what is involved and practice.  If you know that your bike will try to stand up on the brakes, you can be prepared for it.  If you never tried braking in a curve before it will catch you by surprise.  My Super 8 does not try to stand up under braking, my Aprilia only a little.

The biggest advantage of ABS and related systems is that they allow riders to brake close to the threshold of their tires traction limit without going over it and therefore crashing.  However, they cannot change the laws of physics and it is still dependent on the rider to not put him/herself in a situation that no amount of electronic aids can save him/her from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CDN6el4zM

[klaviator]

I watched the video.  I still stand by everything I posted. 

Based on the video, MSC is more than just a supplement to the ABS.  It is part of a larger system that includes traction control and probably wheelie control.  However, MSC does use the ABS.  One example of what it does is prevent wheelspin under power when leaned over which could result in a highside.  A highside is when the wheel spins, the bike starts to slide out and then the wheel regains traction and then the bike pitches over.  This has nothing to do with the a bike standing up under braking although a highside can also occur when a wheel slides then regains traction under braking and the MSC will help prevent that.  Maybe I didn't explain that very well?  A bike standing up under braking has NOTHING to do with wheel spin.  A high side does.

[ScooterCommuter]

I wouldn't be without the ABS on my x500 but at the same time I try to ride like it wasn't there. One of my parking lot exercises at the start of each season is to practice braking by first deliberately overbraking, riding the abs to a stop and marking where I ended up.  My subsequent runs I try and match or beat that stopping distance without the abs triggering.  (Feel it go even once on either lever and that run is disqualified)

Is surprisingly hard at first and surprisingly easy after a bit of practice

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