KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: acrab78 on July 31, 2012, 01:42:30 AM
-
Running the white malossi spring right now out thinking about going to the next stiffer one...
Was a post talking about the colors and ratings from malossi torque springs somewhere.
Not sure exactly how they rate their springs.
Also if you go to a stiffer spring do you loose any top end speed???
Thanks!
-
Contrast spring testing / Morini (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6FNA3avx1A#ws)
This vid shows some conflicting results but it is the method I intend to show. Not the results. Malossi is all over the place on colors. The white/Yellow are the weakest of the malossi's Then it is green/purple/blue/red. Red is strongest.
You will lose notiing in speed but you may have to go to heavier rollers to control the increased rpm's from stronger springs. I just yesterday installed a Malossi Purple, and white fly springs in a gy6, and it is now doing burn outs on any loose surface. Never did that before. My wot rpm's stayed the same using DR Pulley 7gr sliders. I may try 6-6.5 gr next, and blue fly springs to bring up the launch rpm.
-
Excellent video... Sounds like I need to try the green and/or purple....
Too many freaking hills where I ride........
-
Purple is what I just put in a GY6, and it has helped alot. I also installed Malossi white flys on a delta clutch but need maybe green/red. The contra is the best thing you can do on a 4t. A good clutch really helps too but is nowhere near as cheap.
-
Yeah need to try a new spring.... Did recently install the multivar and a new clutch.
Went with the naraku high speed one with a new clutch bell... Has the red springs in it...
So far pretty good but if I won't loose top end with a little stiffer spring I need to try it...
-
You MAY need heavier rollers to keep it balanced but it may work fine without. If you are screaming rpm's but getting nowhere 1gr heavier rollers. What weight do you have in it now? 6-8gr would work with any of the Malossi springs.
-
Using 6g rollers right now with the white spring...
I guess I will get 7g rollers when I order a new spring to try....
That way I have 5g, 6g, stock 6.5g and will get the 7g....
Should be able to tune her up then!
-
That sounds about right. You will be amazed at the difference a spring makes. It turns a mild lil scoot into a cool ass bike!
-
That sounds about right. You will be amazed at the difference a spring makes. It turns a mild lil scoot into a cool ass bike!
That's what I'm talking about!
Now looking for a place to order the green and purple contra spring.... One place has one and another has the other but not both.... Etc etc seems like the same old song and dance everytime.... Haha
Every time I want to order parts I can't seem to get em all from the same place! :P
-
Tell me about it. I have at least 8 vendors, from as many countries involved in this ZX build. When it's finished I may make up a parts/vendor list. I really gave up on trying to get thins quickly. I also order extra everything because of just that... Reminds me... I need to order a piston kit in case.
-
Yep I hear ya... My last order from racing planet took 2 weeks.
Been looking at provo scooters and scooter west.com for the spring(s)
-
Just an Fyi on Provoscooters, they don't seem to have much priority when it comes to sending out their orders. I ordered on a Thursday and didn't get shipping notice till next Tuesday but it wasn't actually shipped out till Wednesday! I was not very happy since I was in dire need of the Carb I'd ordered. Just my experience hopefully yours will be different but for the money we pay for these parts and the shipping costs you'd think they'd try alittle harder.
-
If you get pissed at shipping times you should see the profit margin on this stuff. It's as high as 75% on PREMIUM parts. The China sh** is close to 90% margin. Example... A china var that sells for 30.bucks on EBAY is sold for 2.bucks on AliBaba.
-
I hear ya... Unfortunately I have yet to find a good scooter store in middle Tennessee....
I ordered the green spring from scooterwest.com and should be here Tuesday....
Hopefully it will be what I'm after :P
-
Update....
Got the green mallosi spring and put it in today. #1 the spring is about 1/4" shorter than my white spring.... Hmmm????
Took it for a spin and so far can't really tell a difference. will be riding some more and see if it makes any difference.
Feel like maybe I should have gotten the purple one now haha.
-
Next time you have it apart take it and push it down on a set of bathroom scales and see what weight it reada when it is fully compressed. Do the same with the other one you have and you can then compare and see which needs most force/pressure on it to compress it. That will give you an idea which is the stiffest.
Cant be sure but i seem to remember my stock was just under 40kg, 1000rpm rated was maybe just over or around 40kg, and my 1500rpm was around 45/47kg, but i may be wrong, it was ages ago i did it. Sure it was around those figures tho, or at least the differences between them was round that.
-
That is why I have them all in Malossi. I kept getting another one. The heavier springs are shorter because the thicker wire used. For ten bucks you may want to get the Malossi Torsion controller. It sort of gives a 1/2 step up in size from the preload.
-
I bought the yellow torsion controler with the green spring and installed it at the same time doing away with that metal stock one.....
Have yet to take it for a decent ride with the now current setup but still gonna try my lighter rollers too as I feel my rpms could stand to be a touch higher....
Full derestrict
Malossi multavar
Naraku sport clutch and bell
Red clutch springs
Green torque spring
6 g rollers
-
I liked the 5.5g rollers myself, 5.1g's were good too but seemed to wear down very quickly for me. Im waiting for some new one arriving today, 5.3g and some new 5.5g's, and some new rollers shells so i can renew my 5.1's :)
Once you get a good setup cvt its amazing the difference 0.2g-0.5g can make to your rpm while running.
-
Cool yeah I have a set of 5gs and play on putting them in this afternoon.....
If it seems too light I will try mixing with my 6gs alternating of course for 5.5g.
She's getting there!!! Haha.
-
Cool yeah I have a set of 5gs and play on putting them in this afternoon.....
If it seems too light I will try mixing with my 6gs alternating of course for 5.5g.
She's getting there!!! Haha.
If do like it at the 5.5g then remember to order a full set of actual 5.5g ones cos if you leave it mixed weights then the heavier ones will wear out before the lighter ones. Mixing is ok for tuning or for a short period tho.
Mine arrived today, Malossi 5.1g's other SIP 5.3g's and new set of Stage6 roller shells to renew some of my older flat rollers with. Never tried that before so will see how the shells work out.
Im running some 5.5g's this week since my 5.1's were going flat and i had lost top end. Plan on putting in the Malossi 5.1's and a brand new 18mm wide belt at the weekend tho :)
Hoping the Malossi ones last longer without wearing down than my last set i got from SIP.
-
Cool did not know that about the different wearage if mixed....
-
5.5 Malossi rollers lasted almost 2 years in the ZX with a 72cc kit, and Tech pipe. I've bought cheap rollers for tuning, and replaced them in 2 weeks. As for the shells I swap cores all the time. I have a bag FULL of different cores, and shells. Dr. Pulley are the only ones that don't swap cores easily. I have to dremel the material out of the way to replace cores in them.
-
5.5 Malossi rollers lasted almost 2 years in the ZX with a 72cc kit, and Tech pipe. I've bought cheap rollers for tuning, and replaced them in 2 weeks. As for the shells I swap cores all the time. I have a bag FULL of different cores, and shells. Dr. Pulley are the only ones that don't swap cores easily. I have to dremel the material out of the way to replace cores in them.
Thats the thing, i have never bough no-name rollers but they dont seem to last morevthan a few months, 3-5 at most, then i get flat spots ???
Variator looks fine, very minimal wear but nothing really much at all. I may end up buying a new variator in a few months if these Malossi rollers go flat too quickly. Will keep an eye on it.
-
cheep ones dont last. bough a new veriator £17 of ebay the rolers already are flat after 2 month. new stage 6 ones on the way. hope these last longer and will get some of the shells too i thing if stredio has good results from them. will change the variator in a month or so
the naraku nk900.20 seems a good choice.
-
I have the malossi multavar and like it as do a lot of scooter people here...
An update on the spring still haven't changed rollers yet but took my scooter for
its normal run (5 miles each way) and cannot see any difference going from the white spring to the green spring.
Wishing I got the purple one now. Either that or it just doesn't make much difference on my scoot.....
Still slows to the same speeds on the same hills etc... No better but no worse either.
Might order the purple.
-
Told you Acrab, trial and error, normally lots of trials and lots of errors :D
At least you have a benchmark to work from and a test route now.
-
Yep! ;D
Still have the yellow hocca torque spring..... Might try it again now.
Always something :P
-
Well another update since the green spring didn't seem to change anything put the 5g rollers in
instead of the 6g rollers I have been using.... Honestly can't tell a difference. Gonna try the yellow torque spring next.
Honestly it's starting to seem like it's maxed out for the 50cc engine.
Already thinking about a bigger scooter. Have been looking at the piaggio fly 150 and buddy 170I.
Still love my little a50 just thinking aloud. :P
-
Hows your belt? If its worn then it would seriously affect performance.
I ran 1g heavier rollers last week and i can tell you my rpms shifted down around 600-700rpm at least which totally slowed sown my acceleration and made my scoot un-ridable.
Its all about getting that balance of everything just right and dialed in nice. If one little thing is out of sync then it can throw everything else out and mess up a perfectly good set-up. if 50mph is enough speed for you then you may consider buying a 72cc BBK to improve torque etc, if you need more then get a bigger scoot.
You must remember that its just a small 50cc 4 stroke so will never be a race bike so if you need much more speed etc it may be worth going up in size to 125cc. You just got to factor in all the extra expense and time to sit tests etc.s
For me its perfect for commuting to work and back since its all 30-40mph roads on my route so i have no need to go faster than 45-50mph. I got a Vespa 125cc to use for going longer distances and summer runs and tours etc but am def keeping the A50 for work and just tootling about town.
-
My belt is about brand new. I bought my scoot with 788 km on it than started playing with it.
Now have about 1300 km on it and the belt still looks about brand new.
Not getting bad performance at all its just pretty hilly around here.
Been looking to not drop to 30 mph and sometimes below on the hills.
Feels like other than the bbk etc I am about maxed out.
No worries still enjoy the scoot and am only out about a thousand dollars total so far.
-
Well another update since the green spring didn't seem to change anything put the 5g rollers in
instead of the 6g rollers I have been using.... Honestly can't tell a difference. Gonna try the yellow torque spring next.
Honestly it's starting to seem like it's maxed out for the 50cc engine.
Already thinking about a bigger scooter. Have been looking at the piaggio fly 150 and buddy 170I.
Still love my little a50 just thinking aloud. :P
I would go for the gusto, and add either the Malossi blue or (extreme) red. That is the same method I used in getting my collection of springs. Trial/error
-
Not sure of the Malossi colours but i do know the 2000rpm rated spring i tried in mine did not work well at all. I actually lost speed up hills with it on ANY roller weight i tried :-\
Our little 4t engines do not have enough power to run the 2000rpm spring imo.
-
You do need heavy rollers to open a red spring or more rpm. I don't think i is a good set up tho. Not on a stock engine.
-
Yeah I still have a hocca 1500 yellow spring that I will try even though last time I tried
it it sucked for me. But I didn't have my multavar or New clutch setup then either.....
-
On my bathroom scale, both the stock and the Malossi white that came with the multivar were 30kg to fully compress. :)
It was said that it were a 50cc 4-stroke and not a race bike, which is right, but it doesn't mean that it cant become a race bike.
If a 50cc race bike were wanted, you should change the clutch springs so it gets traction as close to the max torque as possible. Also, you would want to tune the exhaust and intake (info about that here (http://www.challengers101.com/IntakeTuning.html)) and you would like to get 4 valves instead of 2 and a CDI without restrictions.
But i sense that you just want to get it to ride good, and then these changes wouldn't be very economical or practical. ;)
Anyway, back to the vario tuning:
With 6,2g rollers and the stock spring, the accelleration happened at 7200 rpm for me, but with 7g dr. pulley sliders, the rpm were at 7450 during accelleration, which is a little high for my taste, as it is over the max torque according to the manual, and it lead to slower accelleration.
I will try 8g Dr. Pulley some time soon, to see if i can get the rpm closer to 7000 during accelleration. :D
The torque springs have 2 purposes:
1) To keep the belt tightened during accelleration.
2) To force the gearing down, when the throttle is closed and there are no longer enough torque to keep the gearing high.
For the tuning part of the torque spring, we mainly focus on the second purpose, as rpm can be kept high during decelleration, if the gearing is forced down very fast, but a stiffer torque spring also have disadvantages, when our engine are so weak from stock.
To accellerate, the engine will have to generate torque higher than what the air- and rolling resistance, the weight of the bike and driver and the torque spring does against the engine, and as you could imagine, a stiffer torque spring will remove more torque from the engine and therefore reduce the overall output of the torque on the rear wheel. Normally, we say that the vario transmission have a 10% torque loss, but with a stiffer spring, this might be alot higher and you will get slower accelleration and less top speed if you haven't increased the torque output at the crankshaft aswell. :p
It also hurts the fuel economy, as you will need to turn the throttle more to get the same amount of torque at the rear wheel and because it keeps the rpm high during decelleration.
The high rpm are what is wanted at race engines, as they almost never hit top speed because of the many turns on a closed track. :)
Where the effectband lies also depends on the exhaust and intake system, so with the different manifold and exhaust, the effectband might have been shifted a little for me, as it seems that it has faster accelleration at 7450 rpm with the carb and 16mm intake manifold than it has with the 24mm throttle body and manifold that came with the injection, but this might be partially caused by a wrong mixture with the injection at the moment. :)
-
Nice Baddi. I would tend to agree on your Rpm ratings, mine currently sits around 6700-7200 on acceleration and that gives the best acceleration for me straight thro from 0-40mph, slightly dies off once i hit 40 but i can live with that cos the 0-40mph acceleration more than makes it worth it for me since most of my riding is town and city riding.