KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: Nireen on May 07, 2019, 04:01:59 PM
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I notice I am due to have this adjusted. Way over due actually and someone on another post of mine said this maybe due to me losing some of my top speed. I am wondering when you all have got yours checked if they need alot of adjusting or is it often OK? I am asking cause the garage just told me if they are off alot this can take them up to two hours to adjust. This is gonna cost me a good $200 gosh!
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Karl, is this just nut and set-screw? Or are shims involved on the DT300?
If it's just nut and screw....
Once the valve cover is off - the feeler blade is used to determine the proper gap....only a moments more work to adjust if it is not up to specs.
The time & labor/$ is getting to the area to check. Once there - "Good" or "Way out of specs" adds only a few mins more labor time.
If your valve check is way overdue.....might be time to have it done. (though often hard starting is a symptom of valves needing adjustment - but not the only sign)
Karl - jump in here!
Stig
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Screw and lock-nut. I am slow like grass growing and it does not take me any two hours! Nice thing is once set they pretty well stay put. However, never hurts to check. I usually check it on delivery and they usually are either close to right or slightly tight. Check again at the 600 mile service, adjust if necessary. Again at 3000 change a check usually does NOT reveal adjustment required. Check again at 9000 or if any power loss noted.
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Screw and lock-nut. I am slow like grass growing and it does not take me any two hours! Nice thing is once set they pretty well stay put. However, never hurts to check. I usually check it on delivery and they usually are either close to right or slightly tight. Check again at the 600 mile service, adjust if necessary. Again at 3000 change a check usually does NOT reveal adjustment required. Check again at 9000 or if any power loss noted.
Hey guys thanks your both awesome. I had them done at 10,000km and I am now at 28000 km. I had lost my top speed and someone thought I might want to check the valves but boy if I can avoid this that would be great. So it shouldn't take them long even if they do check hey? More than what say half hour??
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Kat,
If your shop charges by the hour for labor...….I can't see them doing it in much less than an hour.
Put the scooter up on the lift.
Remove some panels.....and maybe the seat.
Move engine to top dead center.
Remove valve cover to access the valves for the check.
Check and adjust.
Valve cover back on.
Replace panels and seat.
Off the lift.
Might charge for a new valve cover gasket....to prevent future oil leaks.
Shop techs don't move as though they are doing factory piece-work.....but they're not goofing around either.
If it is a Kymco shop - they may very well have a set labor time (and price) for a valve check on your particular scooter.
One thing to ask about - most advise doing a valve check only on a cold engine. Some say that is not necessary.
They will not charge you for the time it takes for your engine to cool - if you ride it in. But you might be waiting awhile for it to cool before they begin.
The alternative is to learn to do the valve check yourself. It will take you much longer than and hour - since it is your first time - but the only part you'll want to spend $ on is the new valve cover gasket. A set of feeler blades is only a couple $, a cheap metric wrench or two from the dollar table at your hardware store. (you're not dealing with massive torque here)
Watch a boatload of videos....find some photos of that area of your scooter. Get a manual?
Stig
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The valve cover gasket is a moulded o-ring like part that fits PRECISELY in a groove. It is a very high-class part/design and works really well. Have not replaced a single one on two DT 300i scoots. Never had a leak. Replace is the best but I'm too cheap!
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Don't be too hard on the mechanic who told you it will take "much longer" to adjust valves which are "way off" from the correct settings. I think he was just trying to find the "easy way out" to explain costs to get valve clearing settings correctly by professionals.
Fact is - on average, a two Valve "nut and screw" set-up with "way off" clearances shouldn't take more than 20 seconds to be set up correctly from a "way off" position.
To be honest - in our part of the world the price quoted to you actually sounds like a real "bargain".
Like Stig suggested - rather try doing the valve clearances yourself.
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I had a hard time finding the feeler guage for my people s 250 even in Cleveland, so it might save you time and trouble buying the right one here on Amazon:
Cyful Stainless Steel Metric... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JBQPDSN?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JBQPDSN?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share)
Based on youtube videos I watched, it wasn't hard. I didn't replace the valve cover gasket but I applied high temperature RTV silicone over it as a YouTuber recommended. After about 800 miles it is running well.
I encourage you to DIY. My mechanic quoted 2000-3000$ for an engine rebuild which got me into this..
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Thanks so much to all of YOU!! :D I will let ya all know what goes. I am taking the bike in Monday morning.
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Just got the bike back and it basically didn't need any adjusting only charged me 50 bucks. :)
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Just got the bike back and it basically didn't need any adjusting only charged me 50 bucks. :)
Any explanation from the mechanic about your missing top speed?
Stig
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What Stig asked and YEAY! on the 50 bucks! I think your dealer may be honorable!
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Any explanation from the mechanic about your missing top speed?
Stig
Hmmm he hummed and hawed :) he mentioned a couple things but gosh you think I can remember nope. He asked me to check my rpm when I am riding this is something I know nothing about and never look but I am going to test this out now.
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Hmmm he hummed and hawed :) he mentioned a couple things but gosh you think I can remember nope. He asked me to check my rpm when I am riding this is something I know nothing about and never look but I am going to test this out now.
OK, Nireen…….ummmmm - no one wanted to be the one to ask. But Karl, you see, wondered, since it was such a l o n g hard winter.....if maybe we might have put on a pound or two while we were house-bound?
I told Karl, "No way!", I bet she just grew an inch or two taller and the wind is slowing her down.
Stig :)
Also, if the valves are good - just ride the snot out of it and enjoy!
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Thanks, Stig! THAT will put me in the barrel for sure! Har, har!
I do recall, years ago when I first started to ride, each motorcycle seemed to get kinda poor after a while. Then when the ship would deploy for 6 months or more, the bikes seemed to perk up when I returned. Could it be you got used to what it would do....not trying to brush you off, just looking at all possibilities. Especially sine Stig gave me up! Har, har!
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Thanks, Stig! THAT will put me in the barrel for sure! Har, har!
I do recall, years ago when I first started to ride, each motorcycle seemed to get kinda poor after a while. Then when the ship would deploy for 6 months or more, the bikes seemed to perk up when I returned. Could it be you got used to what it would do....not trying to brush you off, just looking at all possibilities. Especially sine Stig gave me up! Har, har!
Ha Ha Ha, a pound or two. I did actually; dang menopausal weight lol. I only weigh about 120 pounds. It is only important to me when I am on the highway which I do often; that I need that extra kick to get away from traffic. It makes for a big difference when passing. I am about to take my 7 hour ride to my Mom and Dad's again. I will just have to take an extra hour to get there. :) Maybe it is the fact it is a new belt and just needs to loosen up?
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Try to recall some speed vs. rpm points at common values and the wooly heads with DT300i scoots can tell you if it matches. Fer instance, 60 mph should be 6000 rpm. Oh! You are in kms! No matter, just post what you get and we will see. 120 huh. That's perfect!
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Try to recall some speed vs. rpm points at common values and the wooly heads with DT300i scoots can tell you if it matches. Fer instance, 60 mph should be 6000 rpm. Oh! You are in kms! No matter, just post what you get and we will see. 120 huh. That's perfect!
Oh Karl, I think my RPM often sits at 7000 or 8000 or even 9000 I don't recall seeing it ever sit at 6000 80km's will have to really look now I maybe wrong but???
;)
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Try to recall some speed vs. rpm points at common values and the wooly heads with DT300i scoots can tell you if it matches. Fer instance, 60 mph should be 6000 rpm. Oh! You are in kms! No matter, just post what you get and we will see. 120 huh. That's perfect!
I was just out around town and took notice of this. Even at 40 km it is sitting at about 6000rpm. Is this normal
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Not in my experience. The two I keep harping about were so alike it is scary. One idea is to get someone with the analyzer tool to see if it and the tach read the same. 40 mph may be 4500 to 5000 max.
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Not in my experience. The two I keep harping about were so alike it is scary. One idea is to get someone with the analyzer tool to see if it and the tach read the same. 40 mph may be 4500 to 5000 max.
Oh wow so what if it is not good what needs to be done to fix this?
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It seems from my limited experience with CVT's and Physics 101 that two things affect acceleration and top speed: roller weights and belt width. If the belt is worn too narrow it won't rise to the top of the variator, causing loss of top speed. If the roller weights are lighter than specs the engine will have to turn faster (higher RPM's) to make the belt rise up in the variator, which should give better acceleration at low speeds but possibly cost a loss of top speed. The shop manual gives the minimum width of the belt. You can check it to see if it's worn too narrow. You can also inspect the variator rollers for flat spots and the four plastic roller guides for wear and any dirt build up that could interfere with roller movement.
Just my two cents worth from a newbie with CVT's. I welcome correction from more knowledgeable forum members. I will soon change to lighter rollers on my DT300 and share the results.
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It seems from my limited experience with CVT's and Physics 101 that two things affect acceleration and top speed: roller weights and belt width. If the belt is worn too narrow it won't rise to the top of the variator, causing loss of top speed. If the roller weights are lighter than specs the engine will have to turn faster (higher RPM's) to make the belt rise up in the variator, which should give better acceleration at low speeds but possibly cost a loss of top speed. The shop manual gives the minimum width of the belt. You can check it to see if it's worn too narrow. You can also inspect the variator rollers for flat spots and the four plastic roller guides for wear and any dirt build up that could interfere with roller movement.
Just my two cents worth from a newbie with CVT's. I welcome correction from more knowledgeable forum members. I will soon change to lighter rollers on my DT300 and share the results.
Well I think your 2 cents makes alot of sense! :) I lost my top speed a bit before I replaced the new belt and put new rollers in but I still have not got my highspeed back yet. Someone mentioned my belt may need a few miles on it to get it back. I have amazing acceleration. I should check to see what width they did put on it I guess.
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Oh wow so what if it is not good what needs to be done to fix this?
I had a nice ride today about 140 miles. It occurred to me about 20 minutes in to the trip you have, based on your rpm post, one pulley in your CVT not moving or not moving much. That's why you can wind up the rpm's and not go fast. I suspect the front pulley is not moving.
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Not in my experience. The two I keep harping about were so alike it is scary. One idea is to get someone with the analyzer tool to see if it and the tach read the same. 40 mph may be 4500 to 5000 max.
Just to be clear Karl are you meaning 40 mph or km.
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MPH. You check your variator yet for limited or no movement?
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MPH. You check your variator yet for limited or no movement?
OK needed to be sure Mph or Km. So for sure at 40 km I am about 5000 to 5500 and at 60km I am 6000 to 6500
I went to the garage today to talk about what you said and suggested. He wants me to go on the highway and get it up to 100 or more and see what it reads than to. We have not checked anything yet Karl.
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I wonder now what kind of job this is gonna be to fix if it is a problem?
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Your RPM's are way too high for the speed. Even after I installed lighter rollers my DT300 is turning 6000 RPM's at 60 MPH (96 KPH). I'd remove the CVT cover and watch the belt action as someone twists the throttle (on center stand, of course. The variator should move the belt up to the top of the pulley as the engine gains speed. If not, the belt may be the wrong size, which is critical. Compare it to the old one for diameter (length) and width. Tip: You can leave the CVT uncovered while experimenting, just don't ride the scoot on dirty or wet roads until you re-install the cover. You might check to see if your clutch pads are worn out (maybe the clutch is slipping?)
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PS Another thought: Maybe your variator is not working properly. Maybe the rollers aren't rolling, are stuck or...? That could cause the lack of speed. It's easy to mess up when installing the variator because there are eight rollers that must be kept in position as the two halves of the variator pulley are slid on the shaft.
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Your RPM's are way too high for the speed. Even after I installed lighter rollers my DT300 is turning 6000 RPM's at 60 MPH (96 KPH). I'd remove the CVT cover and watch the belt action as someone twists the throttle (on center stand, of course. The variator should move the belt up to the top of the pulley as the engine gains speed. If not, the belt may be the wrong size, which is critical. Compare it to the old one for diameter (length) and width. Tip: You can leave the CVT uncovered while experimenting, just don't ride the scoot on dirty or wet roads until you re-install the cover. You might check to see if your clutch pads are worn out (maybe the clutch is slipping?)
I have shared what you have to say here with my garage :) Thanks.
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OK needed to be sure Mph or Km. So for sure at 40 km I am about 5000 to 5500 and at 60km I am 6000 to 6500
I went to the garage today to talk about what you said and suggested. He wants me to go on the highway and get it up to 100 or more and see what it reads than to. We have not checked anything yet Karl.
Going to 100 kph (62 mph) will probably show 9000. 40 kph is about 23 mph should show about 4000 rpm max, 60 kph is 37 mph, 4500 to 5000 rpm. Tell your garage you already know what the rpm points are and you suspect the variator is stuck. Is he the one who did any roller/slider work? You may have some big problems in your CVT that HE caused.
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Going to 100 kph (62 mph) will probably show 9000. 40 kph is about 23 mph should show about 4000 rpm max, 60 kph is 37 mph, 4500 to 5000 rpm. Tell your garage you already know what the rpm points are and you suspect the variator is stuck. Is he the one who did any roller/slider work? You may have some big problems in your CVT that HE caused.
Excellent I am going to take the bike out very early on Sunday morning when things are quite and do some testing at different points. Will attach my helmet camera and than post the link for you all to see. I think Karl it has been like this all along. Pretty sure it isn't a recent thing. The guys I do go to are pretty great at what they do.
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Going to 100 kph (62 mph) will probably show 9000. 40 kph is about 23 mph should show about 4000 rpm max, 60 kph is 37 mph, 4500 to 5000 rpm. Tell your garage you already know what the rpm points are and you suspect the variator is stuck. Is he the one who did any roller/slider work? You may have some big problems in your CVT that HE caused.
Good Morning :) Did a wee run this morning and made a video working on the editing now. But for now what I got was at say 40 kmh I get about 5000 and at 60kmh I get 6000 and at 100kmh I get 8000 and even at 110 I still get 8000. I never went higher the roads are a mess so didn't want to be foolish. It seems OK hey. It just seems to need more RPM the slower I am going and than once I am rolling along good it calms down.
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Those numbers sound right.
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Those numbers sound right.
Wonderful! that is a relief...
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I am sorry! I was wrong! You said kph! Not mph! Saw your video and your rpm's are too high relative to speed. Needles confirm what I could figure 100 kph = 62 mph and so on. Too high. Needs fixing!
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I am sorry! I was wrong! You said kph! Not mph! Saw your video and your rpm's are too high relative to speed. Needles confirm what I could figure 100 kph = 62 mph and so on. Too high. Needs fixing!
How high should they be in KM's. Did you see my video.
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How high should they be in KM's. Did you see my video.
Sorry I see you did see my video sorry :P Where should it be again? In KM's
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I am sorry! I was wrong! You said kph! Not mph! Saw your video and your rpm's are too high relative to speed. Needles confirm what I could figure 100 kph = 62 mph and so on. Too high. Needs fixing!
Yes, I saw your video. That is what prompted me to admit my error. OK, this is what I have observed in my two DT300i scoots:
Level ground, steady speed, no wind
45 mph 72 kph 4500 to 5000 rpm
50 mph 80 kph 5000 rpm
60 mph 96 kph 6000 rpm
70 mph 112 kph 6500 rpm
80 mph 128 kph 7800 rpm
Any speeds lower than about 70 kph you should see about 3500 to 4000 rpm more rpm on acceleration less on trail throttle. The way you are winding up rpm's suggests the variator is not changing much if at all.
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Yes, I saw your video. That is what prompted me to admit my error. OK, this is what I have observed in my two DT300i scoots:
Level ground, steady speed, no wind
45 mph 72 kph 4500 to 5000 rpm
50 mph 80 kph 5000 rpm
60 mph 96 kph 6000 rpm
70 mph 112 kph 6500 rpm
80 mph 128 kph 7800 rpm
Any speeds lower than about 70 kph you should see about 3500 to 4000 rpm more rpm on acceleration less on trail throttle. The way you are winding up rpm's suggests the variator is not changing much if at all.
Thank YOU Karl your so kind. :) OK that is great nice and clear. I shared this with my garage.
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Yes, I saw your video. That is what prompted me to admit my error. OK, this is what I have observed in my two DT300i scoots:
Level ground, steady speed, no wind
45 mph 72 kph 4500 to 5000 rpm
50 mph 80 kph 5000 rpm
60 mph 96 kph 6000 rpm
70 mph 112 kph 6500 rpm
80 mph 128 kph 7800 rpm
Any speeds lower than about 70 kph you should see about 3500 to 4000 rpm more rpm on acceleration less on trail throttle. The way you are winding up rpm's suggests the variator is not changing much if at all.
YOu know Karl it has been like this all along not recent! Why would that be than?
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Wrong belt.
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Wrong belt.
OK so now to check this belt thing out. What is the proper size one should have on this bike? So the dealer put the wrong belt from the start interesting.
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OK so now to check this belt thing out. What is the proper size one should have on this bike? So the dealer put the wrong belt from the start interesting.
It is either wrong belt, stuck pulley(s) or both.
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It is either wrong belt, stuck pulley(s) or both.
Thank you was just talking to another member from this group who has the downtown and he to said it is high and for him he noticed a low battery could do this???
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Injector cleaner works great if you have valve deposits, likely from high mileage.
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Injector cleaner works great if you have valve deposits, likely from high mileage.
Oh my what is that LOL? Can you direct me. What is this and where do I put it. All I know to do is put some seafoam in my gastank now and than. :)
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Not sure what you have in N America, but PEA-based cleaners work well. I think Lucas upper cylinder lubricant is ok, but there could be better ones on the market.
You just add it to the fuel tank and after a few hunderd kms you will notice a power difference.
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Not sure what you have in N America, but PEA-based cleaners work well. I think Lucas upper cylinder lubricant is ok, but there could be better ones on the market.
You just add it to the fuel tank and after a few hunderd kms you will notice a power difference.
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Fuel Injector cleaner - is that proper to ask for when I go to Canadian Tire or bike shop.
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Yes.
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Injector cleaner works great if you have valve deposits, likely from high mileage.
http://oilandwaterproject.org/best-fuel-injector-cleaners/ (http://oilandwaterproject.org/best-fuel-injector-cleaners/) yup looks good.
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http://oilandwaterproject.org/best-fuel-injector-cleaners/ (http://oilandwaterproject.org/best-fuel-injector-cleaners/) yup looks good.
SHELL and BP (and several others) gas companies in the USA sell Top Tier gas. Shell and BP are recommended by BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc. and come with plenty of "cleaners" in the mix.
When used regularly no additives are needed.
Stig
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Thank you was just talking to another member from this group who has the downtown and he to said it is high and for him he noticed a low battery could do this???
Have no idea how a low battery could have any effect on high rpm. Low battery will allow starter operation but will not fire the plug below 10.5 volts. Other electronics like speedo and tach are not as voltage fussy. Had you had actual sound on your video it would have confirmed the tach.
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Have no idea how a low battery could have any effect on high rpm. Low battery will allow starter operation but will not fire the plug below 10.5 volts. Other electronics like speedo and tach are not as voltage fussy. Had you had actual sound on your video it would have confirmed the tach.
I can easily upload a clip with the sound. I didn't know it matter. I am stupid with all this! :D
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Don't say stupid! Ignorant can be fixed but stupid is forever! Even when ignorant is fixed, retraining is periodically necessary, like keeping mph and kph straight (me!). Many on here have been listening to engines and drive units so long we are nearly deaf but sometimes can still hear things that tell volumes of info. There was a post on here years back that indicated by the sound the rider adjusted his valves with the cam in the wrong position: LOUD CLATTER!
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Don't say stupid! Ignorant can be fixed but stupid is forever! Even when ignorant is fixed, retraining is periodically necessary, like keeping mph and kph straight (me!). Many on here have been listening to engines and drive units so long we are nearly deaf but sometimes can still hear things that tell volumes of info. There was a post on here years back that indicated by the sound the rider adjusted his valves with the cam in the wrong position: LOUD CLATTER!
Here Karl you can listen to it. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZzzmrGP6j4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZzzmrGP6j4&feature=youtu.be)
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Sounds like 7 to 8000 rpm when the tach shows that. Looks like speed is pretty slow.
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Sounds like 7 to 8000 rpm when the tach shows that. Looks like speed is pretty slow.
I don't understand what that means? :) Can you explain?
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SHELL and BP (and several others) gas companies in the USA sell Top Tier gas. Shell and BP are recommended by BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc. and come with plenty of "cleaners" in the mix.
When used regularly no additives are needed.
Stig
Yes I think I use my bike pretty regular. I even get it out in the winter not often but do. Lets see I have had the bike 3 years now and I have 28000km's.
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I confirm Karl's diagnosis; his RPM's to speed are virtually the same as mine. Your belt is the first item to check, variator next. One can watch the belt and variator operate with the bike on the center stand, cover off and engine running at different speeds. The belt should rise up to the top of the variator at higher speeds, if not that is the problem: wrong (or worn belt), or stuck variator.
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I confirm Karl's diagnosis; his RPM's to speed are virtually the same as mine. Your belt is the first item to check, variator next. One can watch the belt and variator operate with the bike on the center stand, cover off and engine running at different speeds. The belt should rise up to the top of the variator at higher speeds, if not that is the problem: wrong (or worn belt), or stuck variator.
Thank you! I am so grateful for this forum I tell ya. it helps me to stay wise.
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I was just looking at my service manual and it says to NOT clean my air-filter with a compressor air. I been doing this all along and I now can't help but wonder if this filter maybe not in good shape and causing some issues? It is so hard for me to find a stock filter here in Canada. I can't seem to get any parts here. It is a real pain and I heard there were no more dealers in Canada. Not sure if this is true. I just sent of a message to the dealer I got the bike from here to see if he is still doing it. He is far from me so I never dealt with him.
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Nothing to worry about by using compressed air on your filter as long as the orange paper not blown loose.
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And you blow the air in the correct direction, backwards to blow the dust off the top surface.