KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stig / Major Tom on February 17, 2016, 11:01:30 PM
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In a lot of locales it is too cold to ride - so I post this open letter to those out there, with a scooter in the shed, sitting in front of their monitors holding a cup of coffee:
Come along folks....this is an real issue for too many of the Kymco Xciting 500 owners.
It is a great bike when running - but it has a record of being hard (or impossible) to start on even moderately cold days.
There are a lot of good minds who stop by here - can we toss some fresh ideas into the bowl and see if we can come up with a fix - or even a good work-around for this problem?
How about a simple dipstick heater?
Unplug it, put on your oil fill cap and go for a ride.
Seems if the engine oil is warmed - then over a few hours the entire engine will be warmed....and maybe that will fool the cold-hating EFI parts and let this scooter start. Solution must be more than just using Mobile1 type thin oil for easy cold cranking - surely 500 owners have tried that.
Something in that EFI/ECU set-up is not responding appropriately to the cooler temps. So, how to fool it?
Dumb question - but, does it seem to crank more slowly on cold days. Faster on warm days or with warm engine? Probably little difference.
I listened to the youtube video of a guy trying to start his 500 on three diff days. Sounds painful and frustrating.
Scooter community ...... remember, there are no dumb questions or dumb suggestions.
(Well, not many....)
What have you got?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgsMDoRj6FY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgsMDoRj6FY)
Stig
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Would be a cheap try. Sounds like a good, simple, sensible idea.
Karl
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I try to keep things as simple as I can. With my mind, I have too. It's one of 3 things. 1. Fuel 2. Fire 3. Air.
First I would try to partially block the air intake when cranking. If no improvement then would try a shot of starter. If no improvement would put a blow dryer on the computer and warm it up a little. No kidding. If the first two doesnt work, try it. Just a little country diagnostic.
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wrap the motor in heat tape. plug in when not rideing...............
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Put a rag in the airbox opening and see if it starts up faster or normally. That's like putting the choke on. If it helps it then it would seem the fuel circuits in the TB need to be cleaned thoroughly. With FI it should start right off the bat. Some techron might help too. You need to get the mix correct for such a small tank.
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Just beginning to diagnose mine but I got stalled when my lithium battery went dead. It's being replaced under warranty but alas, it is backordered. (Their way of making me pay, I'm guessing cause they are replacing for something not under their warranty). I have tried:
New Iridium spark plug
New Lithium battery with 21Ah and 315CCA's (14Ah is OEM)
New Air filter
Shell Rotel T6 synthetic 5W40 oil
Once I get my battery back I'm going to try these things from the Cyclepedia Service Manual.
Idle reset.
Throttle Position Sensor reset. Scoot needs to be warmed.
Also going to check the stator output by measuring battery voltage at idle and at 2000RPM. (Shorai has suggested voltages for their batteries.)
Thought about putting a car battery in and trying that cause once it wouldn't start at work and my wife came to pick me up and she brought the jumper cables. Hooked it up and it started like it was 70degrees outside (instantly).
My guess (and I'm grabbing at straws cause I just don't know) is that it is not getting enough fuel in the cold like the fuel map needs changed for cold weather. If you watch all of the guys videos on YT one shows it "try" to start with a quick sputter. Mine does exactly the same. If I crank, rest, crank, rest, repeat repeat repeat. It will finally start. Enough for me to worry about frying the starter though. Once warm, I can shut it off and restart it without issue. Come back the next cold day and crank, crank, crank . . . nothing.
The choke idea I will try because that may end up being an easy mod if it works (thanks for that idea). Although the air filter slides into a slot rather than into a box like smaller scoots. Not sure how I'll get that to work.
REST ASSURED, IF I GET THIS FIGURED OUT, I WILL SHARE IT EVERYWHERE I KNOW SO THAT NOBODY HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS. It's an aching feeling I get when the scoot is down.
Thanks to Stig for starting this up.
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Wayne,
Some say it is OK to jump your scoot with a car battery - some say not to.
BUT, those that say it is OK to use a car battery (out of the car or in the car) say this : do NOT have the car running when you do the jump!
We're all pulling for you & that pretty scooter!
Stig
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Remember stator output is in ac voltage till it gets to the rectifier.
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for the people who start there scooter with a car battery, how much easier does the scooter start, I was having trouble with my downtown ( it was below 0 F. ) and I put my 800 cca. car battery on it, and it started like it was summer, the scooter battery turned it over but it would not fire,
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I had a dual battery Setup at one time. This worked great, but I still had to trickle charge every night.
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Just beginning to diagnose mine but I got stalled when my lithium battery went dead......
Thought about putting a car battery in and trying that because once it wouldn't start at work and my wife came to pick me up and she brought the jumper cables. Hooked it up and it started like it was 70degrees outside (instantly)....
REST ASSURED, IF I GET THIS FIGURED OUT, I WILL SHARE IT EVERYWHERE I KNOW SO THAT NOBODY HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS. It's an aching feeling I get when the scoot is down.
Thanks to Stig for starting this up.
Wayne,
I believe you know the answer to your problem. Not enough power from your new battery in cold temps. If it in your words 'started like it was 70degrees outside' while hooked up to jumper cables and the wife's car. It looks like you have discovered it takes more power to start your 500 in cold weather than what your battery is able to putout.
First, I ruled out any thing that has to be plugged in dipstick warmer, any type of warming tape or blanket as not practical.
I have some ideas and they do hit the pocketbook.
You could buy the largest, most powerful Yuasa Battery that will fit. At this point I would only buy from Yuasa themselves. Not Amazon or E-bay just to avoid and chance of knockoffs from china. OR
Buy a Micro-Start small portable jump starter from Antigravity Batteries. Because I have read about these being counterfeited in china and sold on both Amazon and e-bay, I would only buy directly from Antigravity Batteries own website.
On my 500 I had connection for a float charger, I don't remember if you have one too. I would make the same style of connection for the Micro-Start, so that when the need happens you just plug in and start her up.
Yes it is a pain, but then you have the Micro-Start for your cars too.
Either way you're going to spend over $100.
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This may have already been addressed. ButI've noticed that the PREFERRED oil for the 500 is 5w-50 as opposed to 15w40 for the 250. The other viscosities are labeled as ACCEPTABLE. Is anyone using 5w-50 in their 500? Could that small change make the difference?
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I would still like to see what would happen if the computer was heated with a blow dryer then try to start it. I know it sounds crazy and it may be just that, but as in the Dirty Harry movies "I just gotta know." Whatll you say, feeling lucky Wayne?
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I received my replacement Lithium Iron battery and have had no trouble getting the scooter started. After doing some testing I believe that the Lithium battery I received from revzilla.com was bad. I know the original battery that came with the scooter was bad because it sprouted a gellatinous leak on the top which prompted the replacement. Thank you for the ideas and now that the harshness of winter is over I really don’t think I’ll know the final results till next winter but I feel fairly confident at this point. You heard of the song, “It’s all about that bassâ€? As mentioned, I think the Xciting 500Ri, “Is all about those voltsâ€. I don’t know about the rest of you but I get really depressed when the scooter is not running. It has me questioning whether I should even own them cause I’m used to the reliability of a car. When you need it, it is there and just works. I need that with my scooters.
Here’s the troubleshooting path I took once I got my battery. Not too enlightening because it worked right away but it may help someone learn to document what you are doing and so that down the road, you can exactly remember what was done.
Day 1
Install battery with an outside temp of 33F
Measure battery at 13.47v
Turn key 5 times and let fuel pump finish each time and after the 5th try and start. It started right up.
Let idle at 1200rpm for 5 minutes revving several times to 5000rpm.
Shut off and measured battery at 13.86v. (the stator is charging, YEAH)
Manual reset procedure for TPS/ISC (results are same idle at 1200rpm)
TPS= Throttle Position Sensor, ISC= Idle Speed Control
Took for a 5 minute ride.
Measured battery with scooter off at 13.86v.
Day 2
Measured voltage after 24 hours of sitting and 40F outside temp. 13.30v.
Started fine with 1 cycle of fuel pump.
Idled and cycled to 5000rpm several times and shut off.
Battery measures 13.89v.
Day 5
Waited 3 days
Ouside temp 63F
Battery with scooter off measured 13.28v.
Started fine with 1 cycle of fuel pump.
Battery 13.95v at 2000rpm
Battery 13.95v at 5000rpm
Ordered voltmeter to install on the scoot so I don't have to get under the seat to read the voltage.
Day 6
RIDE TO WORK!!! YEAH!
Thanks again for all of the ideas. You never know, I may need to refer to this thread next winter to do some additional troubleshooting. If so, I'll know exactly where I left off.
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Great news!
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I'm the last technical and mechanical person to offer advice, but since any questions and solutions are okay, it seems the heart of the problem is the cold. Is there away to insulate the 500 with covers and tarps so that it isn't effected by the cold? If you can prevent the battery or other systems from getting exposed to colder temperatures it may help it start better in colder weather.
Just a thought.
- Wolf
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Good for you Wayne!
Totally agree - got really bummed when I could not solve the poor low speed cruising of my LIKE200i.
When I take good care of my vehicle - I expect it to be reliable. NEED it to be when using it as work commuter. (Still wonder if maybe I caused the TPS to fail at low speeds by riding 4000 miles at 25mph in State parks. There is a motorcyclist who reported developing the same issue for similar reasons.)
Glad you're both happy now.
Stig
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Way to go! Glad you got it sorted out.
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I'm the last technical and mechanical person to offer advice, but since any questions and solutions are okay, it seems the heart of the problem is the cold. Is there away to insulate the 500 with covers and tarps so that it isn't effected by the cold? If you can prevent the battery or other systems from getting exposed to colder temperatures it may help it start better in colder weather.
Just a thought.
- Wolf
I kept it garaged and it seems as though the cranking was enough to get it going. Very strange for sure. I'll be at ease if/when I get through next winter without issue. The thing I can't get over is, why would it start (if it was the battery) after cranking and cranking on it? Puck it! Let's enjoy riding season.
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Glad to hear you got a replacement battery and you are back on the road.
Like I said before, you knew the answer to your problem the minute you started the bike off your wifes car ''started like it was 70degrees outside. Logistical conclusion there must not have been enough power from just the bike's battery.
This may have already been addressed. ButI've noticed that the PREFERRED oil for the 500 is 5w-50 as opposed to 15w40 for the 250. The other viscosities are labeled as ACCEPTABLE. Is anyone using 5w-50 in their 500? Could that small change make the difference?
Oil weight can make a BIG difference when cold cranking an engine.
Living in the far western suburbs of Chicago, I know the difference synthetic oil versus mineral oil made when I would leave for work at 3 AM in January and February after the car sat outside all night. So cold the plastic holding up the seat belt inside the car shattered when I slid across the seat from the passenger side because the drivers door lock was frozen.
At O'Hare we would leave equipment running during the shift so it would work when we needed it.
On the days I handled GSE (ground service equipment=anything not flying) fueling my guys would keep the 5 gallon container of oil in the cab of the truck, so that the oil would pour when they needed to use it, otherwise it was like molasses. I did a Temp Duty Assignment IN Jackson Hole WY for two winters. I know cold weather and the effect it has on equipment, worked in it for 22 years.
Even the hydraulics had to be warmed by cycling the equipment. Most of the equipment that had to sit outside because it was too big to be parked inside, had recirculation block heaters.
I never consider blankets, heat guns/hair dryers, dipstick heaters as viable or practical options for cars or bikes.
I bet, the backorder was caused by a bad batch of batteries being shipped and now being returned.
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35F when I left for work this am and it started right up. Feeling much better. ;D
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last of the ice melted on the garage floor, so I vacumed the water up, ( should install heater )dreaming in floor heating,. all-so installed a power plug on my tractor ,. battery not handy to access,. so I can plug in the battery maintainer charger,. rigged a plug in from charger to power plug, quick and easy!, I like to run the motors through the winter, every 3 or 4 weeks to move the gas in the carbs, and the charger keeps the battery healthy when it gos to 40 below,
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So guess what, it started fine for a week and then Saturday, sputter just like before. Checked battery voltage: 13.03v. Should have been plenty. It wasn't really "cold" outside. Around 40F i think, and rising. Didn't check other than it was supposed to be a high of 57F (got to 62F). Turned key 3 times and it still didn't start. Turned key 5 times and it started right up. Also started just fine throughout the day during 2 decent rides. The scoot had set for 3 days of not riding. This takes me back to what I thought it was early on, a fuel issue or a fuel pump issue. The fuel pump must be working cause it runs fine once started but I'm wondering if there is some sort of vacuum leak that may be letting the fuel line to the injectors (assuming cause I really don't know how it works) slowly drain back to the tank leaving no fuel being pumped into the injectors. Like turning the key 5 times and letting the fuel pump run it's cycle each time sort of primes the line. This make any sense?
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That really sucks, Wayne! I gotta throw in here it was something you touched when replacing the battery that is the real culprit. Like a bad connection on the terminal. Where it is crimped or soldered on to the fat cable. This could be the starting defect that seems to bother that model.
Karl
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A guy told me Saturday that he worked on one that wouldn't start (don't know if it was the same issue) and he replaced a solenoid and it was fine. Any ideas on what solenoid they would be talking about? Could a solenoid cause an intermittent issue?
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Wayne,
I'm going to place anything I can find on this subject here....
First find: http://maxi-scoots.com/scoot/index.php?topic=708.0 (http://maxi-scoots.com/scoot/index.php?topic=708.0)
And : http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=4486.0 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=4486.0)
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Man I am sorry it is still a problem. My gut says it is a problem with the temperature sensor/ecu interface. It sounds as if the computer does not know when the engine is cold starting. When it is cold the air is denser so the computer should enrich the mixture. If that is not happening then the engine is trying to crank lean.
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Thinking the same.
Scoot needs more fuel at start when cold.
Can ECU be remapped to richen mix only at start?.
Never gets cold in Taiwan so they missed this on this big thumper.???
BUT all of these scooters not having this issue. ..maybe change out temp sensor?
Maybe this part failed.
IDK
Stig
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34F this morning and I went to the garage and it fired right up. No extra turns of the key for the fuel pump cycling. So my theory on the fuel and sitting for a few days is holding true at this point. I need to start a logbook.
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Great! Its an intermittent problem!!! :o Still thinking the temp sensor/comp. Kymco would not have the resources to reflash the ecu and would not want to spend the money for new ones. Did you try to restrict the air flow one of the times it would not crank?
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34F this morning and I went to the garage and it fired right up. No extra turns of the key for the fuel pump cycling. So my theory on the fuel and sitting for a few days is holding true at this point. I need to start a logbook.
Between being sick and the weather, I had not started the Xciting 500 for about 10 days and there were some really cold overnights in there (30'sF and windy). Checked the battery and it was sitting at 13.25v so that was good. Put the key in and Mike the Tiger fired right up. I don't know what to think except I'm feeling a little more confident each time as it seems to have become more reliable at starts. Confidence is high for the riding season. We'll see how it goes this fall. Mr Paul, I didn't try any blocking of the air filter but I will keep it in mind. Thanks everyone for your sympathy and ideas.
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Hi guys,id like to chime in. I have an 09 xciting i bought new in 2010. If it is under 50 degrees,it just wont start. It drives me nuts. Id like to ask if u would give me the part number and model of the battery u put in. Sounds like it helped. Mine wont do anything under 50. Just crank crank crank pop and repeat.
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Oh boy.......
Hope we can help.
Great scooter when it starts.
Help is on the way.....
Stig
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Hi guys,id like to chime in. I have an 09 xciting i bought new in 2010. If it is under 50 degrees,it just wont start. It drives me nuts. Id like to ask if u would give me the part number and model of the battery u put in. Sounds like it helped. Mine wont do anything under 50. Just crank crank crank pop and repeat.
Got my lithium battery from http://shoraipower.com (http://shoraipower.com). They have a battery lookup and for my Xciting500 it took me to the LFX21A6-BS12. I am not convinced though for the price that a Lithium battery is the right choice. I need a full year under my belt before I make that decision. For the record, it has been starting fine the last few weeks.
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My 500 is starting well, since the stator was replaced. I also have a high end battery with more CCA from Motobatt.
It is getting colder and I am not trickle charging anymore since the stator was replaced, yet that first cold start is no longer an issue, and does not look like it is coming back.
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OK, you 500 guys are now the experts on this problem! Boil it down to what you think is the main issue(s) with this problem.
Karl
PS:I think I get it -- just want to hear what you think.
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I came across this German kymco forum, and Google translate helped immensely, but not enough, but I got the gist of it.
This guy fitted a dc/DC converter to give more voltage to the ecu, during the cold starts.
He claimed that while using the device cold starting even at 0 degrees c was no problem. As soon as he disabled the unit, then starting issues returned.
So, the conclusion is that the ecu does not get enough power when cold cranking.
He even fitted an led so he would know if he left it on by mistake.
He later made some change where it would switch automatically back to normal voltage (a bypass if you will).
I have been pricing such converters and it is feasible cost wise.
I just don't know if i must get a 12 to 13.5 v converter, or a 12 to 1.5 - 2.5 volt converter.
You see, I don't know what will happen by adding this extra power to the ecu(what changes, volts or amps or both? ) , or even how to add it, as the guy did not supply pictures,even though he was asked .
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zzip.de
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It still seems elusive to me. I got a new Lithium Iron battery. Somebody had posted about turning the key multiple times before cranking over the engine. Right now beings it's warmed up, I haven't had any issues but earlier in the year I had a few. My solution is turn the key and let the fuel pump run until it stops. Try and start. If it does great. If it doesn't, turn off and on 3-4 more times and then try to start. This has worked so far. I fully expect the issue to come back in the fall. My battery is holding the correct charge so I don't believe it is the stator.
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Here's a direct link, run it through Google Translate.
http://zzip.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=f111586bee8fd7a37f3c80593f66892a (http://zzip.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=f111586bee8fd7a37f3c80593f66892a)
Hello community,
the starting problems have me so far also massively annoyed: Meanwhile, I have installed the third battery and it did not help at temperatures around 2 to 4 ° C - or only conditionally: Fresh from the charger - Roller of jumps, a day later: starter rotates, but no ignition. My dealer was the problem not known, according to the 5000 customer service last fall he jumped on properly, the scooter was also in the hall. The EXIDE battery with 14 Ah I verbaut- no real effect.
After I have no garage for the scooter and want to go even below just above zero degrees in the morning to work, I have tried something: After the ECU relay I have switched voltage by means of a DC / DC converter to 13.8 V constant increases, almost no matter how the battery voltage sags - and lo and behold, last Friday we had just above zero: Roller has started - the weekend he was - and this morning, measured temperature 0.9 ° C - Roller has started. Of course this is an intrusion into the vehicle electronics, but it has worked and I'm pretty sure it would have without the intervention is not working. Will it continue testing
As promised, I report on my retrofitting: Every day, the temperatures were when the bike below 5 ° C: I could start without problems. Before retrofitting this would only be successful if I would support the battery during the starting operation with an external power supply. The only experimentally relocated wiring I have now secured and installed the Converter into the small storage compartment under the handlebar. As ground line for Converter I have the two ground lines of hitherto freely terminating turn signal connectors used. What these lines were intended, I do not know, maybe there are versions with two indicators on the front of each side.
Now I am happy every morning on riding, which was previously always associated with uncertainty. The cause of the startup problems described versatile I suspect that the assessment of the ignition electronics borderline low in occurring during startup in cold tension - and is not changeable. The success of the measure carried out these excursions for.
As I have now covered against 06:45 the scooter, the dew had frozen on the tarpaulin - the scooter is indeed outdoors at night and is only covered with a tarpaulin: And - the first attempt to start after the last drive on the previous Friday: The Roller jumps to problems.
The DC / DC converter is warm after about 5 km by road - in the small storage compartment it is not cooled by the wind. So I will install for all cases a switch, with which I can switch between voltage boost converter means and normal operation. When switched off, the series quasi state is restored. After the converter is powered by the ECU relay with voltage, it is only active when the ignition is turned on, it consumes the ignition switched off and thus no quiescent current.
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late to this thread, but ...
lithium batteries do not like cold weather, they need to be warmed up before they put out full power, an AGM battery is a better choice for cold weather starting
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YEA to above post! Plus cost.............................Check out this link and the reviews on batts fitting my bike. Most batts where reviews are similar are on yausa mentioned sites or other quality batt sites. $50 bucks more.
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Here's a direct link, run it through Google Translate.
http://zzip.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=f111586bee8fd7a37f3c80593f66892a (http://zzip.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=f111586bee8fd7a37f3c80593f66892a)
I don't have a 500. But this thread is interesting nonetheless. And this translation is actually BETTER than some officially translated materials such as repair manuals, and assembly instructions. 😂😂
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I don't have a 500. But this thread is interesting nonetheless. And this translation is actually BETTER than some officially translated materials such as repair manuals, and assembly instructions. 😂😂
I am also quite interested as the MyRoad seems to take longer to start cold than I think it should.
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Add my 2009 XC500Ri to the list of scooters that won't start when it's cold. For now, my solution is to warm the engine compartment with a blow dryer inserted from the back right of the scooter. After a couple of minutes, it starts right up.
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Add my 2009 XC500Ri to the list of scooters that won't start when it's cold. For now, my solution is to warm the engine compartment with a blow dryer inserted from the back right of the scooter. After a couple of minutes, it starts right up.
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Thanks for you input clbolt,
I take it that once it has been started and run each day - it will fire for the remainder of the day?
Stig
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I know the UXV500i is similar to the scooter engine in that it is a PAIN to start with the OEM battery and nearly impossible in cold weather. I have fitted my side-by-side with a crude, cheap lawn equipment battery of 330 cca and it is a different machine! Starts like Stig's Like! 30 dollars US for that battery. Been working for a year now...
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Thanks for you input clbolt,
I take it that once it has been started and run each day - it will fire for the remainder of the day?
Stig
Yep. Once I've actually ridden it, I don't have a problem restarting it.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191119/f32869478bbf21a3e2cd4627bbf4a5b7.jpg)
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