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Messages - Yager200i

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361
Yager GT 200i / Handheld engine diagnostic tool
« on: February 26, 2011, 01:32:29 PM »
I found what appears to be a couple of options for doing diagnostics on the engine and fuel injection system of the Yager GT 200i scooter.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.jorsindo.com%2Fviewthread.php%3Ftid%3D2121833&act=url

First is a small monochrome-screen handheld diagnostic tool:
Handheld Diagnostic Tool: Part number 3620A-LEB2-900, 2019-0801331
3620A-LEB2-E00 (English version) or 3620A-LEB2-900 (what I'm assuming to be the Chinese version).

The alternative to the above tool is an RS-232 Linker and Power Supply, for linking to a PDA device:
Kymco RS-232 Linker and power supply: 36200-KKE2-900 PDA RS232 SJ25AB Ref Model G3 125

There's also software for Windows Mobile or Windows CE, called Kymco DTool, that you have to download and install on your PDA from the Kymco website, but I've yet to find a link.

It appears these devices are manufactured in Taiwan by:
http://www.autoland.com.tw

I'm trying to get in contact with AutoLand Taiwan and Kymco Taiwan to see if I can buy one of the diagnostic tools.

362
Yager GT 200i / Oil
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:41:27 PM »
Below is a link to a page talking about the Kymco scooter manual stating that a SG-rated 15W-40 oil must be used. Turns out, the SG rating for oil is OLD (I think it's now up to SM rating), and the Kymco rep states that a regular 10W-40 automobile oil should be just fine.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1692715

Now that we've established that we CAN use either 10W-40 or 15W-40 oil in our scooter engines, which is the best one? Well, that's a tough thing to figure out.

As for me, because it's a high-revving engine, I want to be sure that there's no foaming, and little viscosity breakdown over the life of the oil.

So, after engine break-in (in which I'll be using a conventional 15W-40 oil and changing the oil and filter very frequently (ie.: after ~25 miles, then ~50, then ~100, then ~200, then ~400, then ~800, then ~1600), I'll be using a diesel-rated synthetic 10W-40. Oil and filter change interval after break-in will be every 1000 miles.

The diesel-rated synthetic oils not only have more detergent in them to keep the engine clean, but they've got anti-foaming agents, and stand up to extreme use better, so there's less viscosity breakdown.

Keep in mind that motorcycle oils don't have the friction modifiers that automotive and diesel oils have, because those friction modifiers can cause the motorcycle clutch to slip. So they're less 'slippery' than other oils. If you have metal-to-metal contact (piston scuffing, etc.), you won't have as much protection as with an automotive or diesel oil.

363
Technical | How To / Re: Diesel oil for a scooter?
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:35:04 PM »
I decided to use motorcycle oil in my PS250 since motorcycle & scooters are similar but not the same, of course. Their motors are similar but most scooters have 'dry clutch' and do not share the same oil with the transmission. Scooters, like motorcycles have small high revving motors that work hard and are hard on the oil.

Keep in mind that motorcycle oil won't have the friction modifiers of automobile or diesel oil, because those friction modifiers can make a motorcycle clutch slip. So the motorcycle oil isn't as 'slippery' as other oils, and if you get metal-to-metal contact (piston scuffing, etc.), you won't have as much protection.

So, in my opinion, motorcycle oil would be good for breaking-in the scooter engine, but after it's fully broken-in, I'd use a synthetic diesel oil.

364
Kymco News / Re: Kymco -- One Million PTW in 2011?
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:26:33 PM »
Any stats on the number of air-cooled vs. the number of liquid-cooled PTW's Kymco sold last year?

365
Yager GT 200i / Oil Filter
« on: February 23, 2011, 07:06:38 AM »
The OEM oil filter for the Kymco Yager GT 200i is apparently Part# 1541A-KKC3-900 Model# SH30DB $19.00

There is an alternative, from Britain I believe, that KymcoForum member CROSSBOLT found. It's called the HiFlo Filtro HF562. It's an exact replacement for the OEM filter, except it's got more pleats (and hence more surface area, and hence more flow).

Now, if you do a Google search on that filter, you'll get a whole heap of websites overseas that are selling it, and if you do an advanced search to filter those out, for some reason you won't get many results of American companies selling this filter.

But, I found one:
DennisKirk.com
Part #: 304961
$3.90

I just ordered 10 of them. Shipping was around $8.00 for the cheapest shipping option, but they've got plenty of other shipping options if you need the filters fast.

366
Yager GT 200i / Maintenance Record - VIN RFBT 9H154AB210136 - FEB 2011
« on: February 23, 2011, 05:33:53 AM »
I'll be recording my maintenance and other events on my Kymco Yager GT 200i here. This will give me the incentive to ensure that all maintenance is done in a timely manner, and will allow others to glean ideas for maintenance on their own bikes.

====================

-----
14 Feb 2011:
New 2010 Kymco Yager GT 200i delivered from Rock Ridge Scooters. $400 off listed price for last year's model. Mileage: 1
-----
16 Feb 2011:
Geico insurance switched from old Tank scooter to new Kymco scooter, $97.00 / year
-----
20 Feb 2011:
I'll be compiling a toolkit that'll stay with the scooter, and a toolkit that'll stay in the garage. I've already got a large collection of SAE and metric wrenches and sockets, so I need scooter-specific incidentals.

Got the following from O'Reilly (Kragen) Auto Parts:
Feeler gauge
Oil drain pan
Small funnels
Non-permanent, medium strength thread lock
Fuses (20A {x2}, 15A {x4}, 10A {x2})
Tire valve core remover
Oil 15W-40 SM Rated conventional
Antifreeze (O'Reilly Antifreeze and Coolant, Black Bottle)
RedLine Water-Wetter
Tire pressure gauge
Slime tire sealant (12 oz. bottle)
DOT 4 brake fluid
Extra Iridium spark plugs (ordered them, not in stock)
Foot-operated air pump

Got the following from Home Depot:
Snap-lock pliers
Large toolbox
Work light with clamp
Duct tape (small roll)
Multi-screwdriver (long)

Added 5 capfuls (1.25 ounces) of RedLine Water Wetter to coolant system.

First ride. Doing a hard break-in procedure as described here:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm
-----
23 Feb 2011:
Ordered 10 oil filters. HighFlo HF562, part number 304961 ($3.90 each) at DennisKirk.com
-----
26 Feb 2011:
Got two NGK DPR7Eix-9 Iridium spark plugs from O'Reilly (Kragen) Auto Parts.
-----

367
Yager GT 200i / Spark Plug, conventional and Iridium
« on: February 23, 2011, 04:10:05 AM »
The Kymco Yager GT 200i manual states that the following spark plug is to be used:
NGK DPR6EA-9 (standard)

NGK makes an iridium plug that will work for our scooter, but it's one heat range cooler than our OEM plugs:
NGK DPR7Eix-9 (iridium)

You can get these plugs from Kragen/OReilly auto parts (although they're not usually in stock. I had to get two of them shipped to my nearest store from another store).

According to Denso (another spark plug manufacturer), a good cross-reference plug is:
X20EPR-U9 (standard)

Or, for an iridium plug from Denso, it is also one heat range cooler than our OEM plugs:
IX22B (iridium)

The heat range of a spark plug determines how well it will survive in the environment inside the cylinder. Too hot, and you get melting, blistering and breakage of the spark plug metal and ceramic.
Too cold, and you get fouling of the plug.

Personally, if I couldn't find the exact right heat range plug, I'd rather go with the next colder range than the next hotter range.

I believe the NGK iridium plug would be a good fit for our scooters, despite the fact that it's one heat range cooler. The iridium plugs are very resistant to fouling, and our fuel-injected Yagers simply don't foul plugs like a carbureted engine does, because the fuel metering is more precise (i.e.: when you crank open the throttle on a carbureted bike, the cylinder gets a dose of rich fuel/air mix from the accelerator pump or power jet (which is often poorly tuned on small carburetors and just dumps a lot of fuel into the intake during rapid throttle opening to prevent lean-out bogging) until the engine gets up to speed and the air intake velocity can draw fuel from the float bowl, which can lead to earlier plug fouling).

The thing that really causes the most plug fouling is running the engine at a low RPM for long periods of time. But because we're running a CVT, the engine speed is nearly always high (I was riding at 12 MPH today in a parking lot, and my RPM was 4000!), so that's another reason that a plug one heat range cooler than stock should be OK. If you need to clean the plug, it can usually be cleaned up pretty well by taking the scooter on a long, high-speed run to get the plug up to its self-cleaning temperature so that it can burn off the carbon deposits.

Again, having to ride fast for a while because you're using a plug that's one heat range cooler than stock is a lot better than finding chunks of melted spark plug metal or chunks of broken spark plug ceramic in your cylinder because you're running a spark plug that's too hot.

Another thing that tells me that running a spark plug that is one heat range cooler than the manual specifies is that the carbureted Dink 200 service manual specifies a NGK DP7EA9 spark plug, which is the same heat range of the Iridium plugs I've got.

368
Yager GT 200i / Re: Electrical trouble symptoms
« on: February 23, 2011, 03:24:26 AM »
I have sort of the same symptoms, but I've only seen it at idle.

It'll idle along at about 1600 RPM, and every once in a while, I'll see it jump up to 1900 RPM, but I don't hear the engine speed increasing.

I haven't noticed this on the road at higher RPM, because I don't look at the tach when I'm on the road, and I've only got about 18 miles on it so far.

I'll be sure to check the battery cables.

369
Yager GT 200i / Re: Gasoline octane requirements
« on: February 23, 2011, 02:19:36 AM »
Things about gasoline and octane you might not know:
1) The octane level of a fuel defines how hard it is to ignite, and how fast it will burn. Keep in mind that as the fuel is burning in the cylinder and increasing pressure, the piston is moving down and effectively lowering pressure. The amount of work done on the piston during the combustion stroke is a product of these differences. So, it stands to reason that for high-RPM engines with high piston speeds, using the fastest burning (lowest octane) fuel that you can (without getting knock detonation) will increase the amount of usable power the engine produces. If the fuel burns so slowly that the resultant pressure rise is negated by the piston moving downward, then no effective work can be done on the piston (and there have been engines developed that have experienced this problem).

2) If you live at a higher elevation, you can safely use lower octane fuel than if you were at a lower elevation. This is because the further you get from sea level, the less air your engine takes in, which lowers your effective compression ratio. A lower compression ratio means that you can use a lower octane fuel without risk of detonation knock.

3) Gasoline with a lower octane actually has a higher energy density than gasoline with a higher octane. However, if you have a more sophisticated engine and use a higher-octane fuel, the engine control unit can advance the timing such that efficiency will be greater than when using a lower-octane fuel. Most ECU's run the engine at a point that is right before the advent of detonation knock, so by running a higher-octane fuel, the ECU can advance the timing more and increase efficiency. That said, if your compression ratio isn't sufficient to take full advantage of the higher octane fuel, you'll see no benefit from running a higher octane fuel.

(Does anyone know if our scooters utilize a knock sensor to adjust timing?)

370
Yager GT 200i / Gasoline octane requirements
« on: February 22, 2011, 06:40:05 AM »
It seems the Kymco manual states, "Use unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 91 or higher."
 
The Research Octane Number (RON) is not what we use in the US, we use the Anti-Knock Index (AKI). There is also the Motor Octane Number (MON), further confusing the issue.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
 
In order to translate between RON (which the Kymco manual uses) and AKI (which US gas stations use), we have to do some math.
 
MON is a more stringent octane test than RON, so the MON will generally be 8-10 points lower than the MON.
 
So, we let this website do the calculations:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/calculators/anti-knock_index/ra/6k/ue/
 
We know Kymco wants a RON of 91 or higher, so we plug that into the RON input on that page. We'll assume MON is 10 points lower than RON for this first run, so MON is 81.

The result is an AKI of 86. So, Kymco says with a RON of 91 and a MON of 81, we can run 87 AKI octane gas just fine (in other words, the 87 octane number as it shows at US gas pumps).
 
Let's do another calculation with the MON set 8 points lower than the RON.
That gives an AKI of 87. So again, we should be just fine running 87 octane gas in the scooter, according to the Kymco manual.
 
So, it would appear that running 87 octane (AKI) gas should be just fine for these scooters.

371
Yager GT 200i / Re: Antifreeze recommendations?
« on: February 22, 2011, 05:27:29 AM »
It seems that we're backed into a corner, somewhat.

We can use silicates to protect the aluminum engine components from corrosion very effectively, but if we do so, we risk ruining our water pump mechanical seals. Or, we can run the new organic acid technology coolants, and risk getting into a 'DeathCool' situation (whereby the coolant turns to a rust-colored sludge that plugs coolant passages, when air is let into the radiator by opening the cap), and will still almost inevitably ruin our water pump impellar (since organic acid technology (OAT) coolants take a long time to lay down the protective passivation layer after it's been stripped off due to cavitation, too long of a time to provide protection to the pump impellar), or get pitting corrosion on our cylinder coolant passages (again, because OAT coolants take a long time to lay down a protective passivation layer, and that layer gets stripped off again quickly if localized boiling occurs at the cylinder head coolant passages).

Thanks, Kymco. What, the extra few dollars of a magnetic-drive water pump WITHOUT seals was too much? Sheesh.


So, what are the best pH conditions, chemical conditions and best chemicals (besides silicates) for aluminum corrosion prevention?

pH CONSIDERATIONS:
====================
It would appear that a more neutral / slightly alkaline pH (~8 - 9) is best for aluminum. This allows the protective passivation layer to form, and the passivation layer and base metal aren't attacked as much as in high-pH or low-pH environments. This pH is also high enough that if you're running silicate-based coolant or additives (including Water-Wetter), it will keep the silicate in solution and prevent it from forming globules that can clog coolant passages.

Next best would be a high-pH condition, in which the passivation layer is attacked more (leading to general corrosion, rather than pitting corrosion). In a high-pH environment, since it tends to attack the passivation layer, which is tougher than the base metal, corrosion damage is lower than in a low-pH environment. Although a high-pH environment prohibits passivation (i.e.: the formation of a protective layer) somewhat, the high-pH environment won't attack the base metal as much as a low-pH environment.

The worst would appear to be a low-pH environment, in which the base metal is attacked more (leading to pitting in areas where the passivation layer is removed, although the passivation layer can very quickly re-establish itself). In areas where the passivation layer is quickly scrubbed off (i.e.: the water pump during cavitation, cylinder coolant passages during boiling), a low-pH environment would be deadly to the metal. In addition to the metal being attacked, if you're running silicate-based coolant (or have any additives which contain even the smallest amounts of silicates, such as Water-Wetter), you'll find the silicates coming out of solution in a low-pH environment to form globules which can plug coolant passages.

European anti-freeze products generally have a neutral to slightly alkaline pH range (7 - 8.5), whereas American anti-freeze products generally have a more alkaline pH range (10 - 11) that drops over time as the alkalinity buffers are used up. If European anti-freeze products also experience a similar drop in pH over time (and why wouldn't they? Their alkalinity buffers are also used up for the same reason our coolant's alkalinity buffers are used up), that would put them in the worst pH condition over time.
====================


WATER CONSIDERATIONS:
====================
Since pH is so important, another consideration is the pH of the water you are using to dilute the antifreeze! If you're using low-pH water (i.e.: tap water which has a lower-than-neutral pH, or distilled water that has sat open for a long time), this will offset the higher-pH of the antifreeze, and cause a lower overall pH, which may cause problems down the road as the pH buffers in the coolant are used up. So don't use tap water! Use distilled, neutral-pH water (newly distilled water without anything added to it should be pH-neutral, since any pH-altering substances can't make it through the distillation process to end up in the condensate).

Now, you'll notice that I said "distilled water without anything added to it SHOULD be pH-neutral". This is because after the distillation process, distilled water will tend to absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), making it more acidic (lower pH). So, if you've got a new bottle of distilled water from the store, don't let it sit around open. Keep the lid on tight. Distilled water pH can go as low as 5.6 if it has absorbed enough carbon dioxide.
====================


CHEMICAL CONSIDERATIONS:
====================
Well, this is a more complicated subject than I can discuss here, so I'll provide a link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSHykGbjapMC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=Engine+Coolant+Testing,+2nd+Symposium&source=bl&ots=FvGvZbqFbT&sig=99fJ2TXKZccBNbv6wm7z3OaSnrk&hl=en&ei=jiljTc_KKY_2tgOrzoGuCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is a book called 'Engine Coolant Testing, 3rd Volume'. Look on pages 15-17, and you'll see various chemicals used for corrosion control during testing.

Monoacid-dibasic acid technology:
Sample A - Triazole, Monoacid, Dibasic Acid

Nitrite-free formulation:
Sample B - Borax, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3), Triazole, Sodium Silicate (NaSiO3), Monoacid

Conventional benzoate-nitrite-silicate technology, high silicate:
Sample C - Borax, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Nitrite (NaNO2), Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3), Sodium Silicate (NaSiO3)

Conventional benzoate-nitrite-silicate technology, low silicate:
Sample D - Borax, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Nitrite (NaNO2), Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3), Triazole, Sodium Silicate (NaSiO3)

Inorganic phosphate technology:
Sample E - Borax, Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3), Triazole, Sodium Silicate (NaSiO3), Phosphoric Acid

Triethanol Amine Phosphate technology:
Sample F - Borax, Triazole, Phosphoric Acid, Triethanol Amine

The two test metals were:
(1) Aluminum SAE 329 (cast aluminum)
(2) Aluminum Alloy 6082 (wrought aluminum)

And looking at the corrosion rate test results:
Sample A - (1) 0.30 (2) 0.09
Sample B - (1) 0.39 (2) 6.73
Sample C - (1) 0.21 (2) -0.05
Sample D - (1) 0.07 (2) -0.06
Sample E - (1) 0.00 (2) -0.05
Sample F - (1) 0.29 (2) 0.76

(Negative values indicate a weight gain.)

This was under static heat-transfer conditions.

Things look a bit different under dynamic heat-transfer conditions (we'll only look at the SAE 329 test, since we're dealing with cast aluminum engine blocks):
SAMPLE - TEST DURATION(hrs) : CORROSION RESULT
A - 48:10.7  69:26.0  116:21.6
B - 48:512  69:N/A  116:N/A
C - 48:-18.0  69:261  116:N/A
D - 48:N/A  69:1260  116:N/A
E - 48:607  69:1243  116:N/A
F - 48:N/A  69:1510  116:N/A

(Negative values indicate a weight gain.)

The book states:
"Low silicate conventional coolants and the phosphate coolants showed high corrosion rates, even after a test duration of only 48 hours."

The book goes on to state:
"The high silicate conventional coolant (Sample C) performed well, but high corrosion rates were found when the test duration was extended to 69 hours. The monoacid-diacid coolant (Sample A) showed consistently low corrosion, even when the test duration was extended to 116 hours and aged test solutions were used."

So, it would appear that the new organic acid technology coolants are the best for usage. The problem is, the anti-freeze product manufacturers still haven't perfected the technology, leading to 'DeathCool' situations that ruin engines.

As such, I'm going to run conventional low-silicate coolant with Water-Wetter (which will add some silicates), and flush/change annually. This WILL be harder on my water pump mechanical seal than running the new organic acid technology anti-freeze products, but at least I know I won't undergo 'DeathCool' (i.e.: the coolant turning to a rust-colored sludge that blocks the coolant passages, simply because I popped open the radiator cap to check the radiator condition and by so doing let in a bit of air). And replacing the pump mechanical seal isn't all that hard. I replace mechanical seals on (very large) pumps at work. The advantage to being a 'wrench'.

If I find that the mechanical seal tends to go out pretty quickly with this regimen, I'll convert the water pump to magnetic drive (hence, it'll have no seal to wear out). This is something Kymco should consider doing for all its scooters. Then we could run the best anti-freeze formulation (high silicate) for our aluminum blocks, with no worries that the water pump mechanical seals will fail.
====================


OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:
====================
As an aside, did you know that if you're doing any engine work on an aluminum block engine, you SHOULD NOT use a graphite pencil to make any marks on the aluminum? Apparently, the dissimilar metals (aluminum, graphite) set up a localized galvanic corrosion that can strip away aluminum's oxide layer and allow greater overall pitting corrosion in that area.

Another aside, if you're considering cleaning your scooter with carbon tetrachloride and methyl alcohol, don't do it. Apparently some aluminum alloys react violently with the combination of carbon tetrachloride and methyl alcohol, which is strange considering that aluminum is resistant to each of those chemicals alone.
====================

372
General Discussion / Re: Yager gt 200i
« on: February 21, 2011, 10:37:55 PM »
The 'final straw' in my case was when I was tooling along a 4-lane street (speed limit 45 mph, but everyone does 55-60), in the left hand lane. The ONLY good thing about that scooter is that it was only a 150cc, but it'd do 60 mph pretty easily.

The engine faltered, then picked back up again, then just died outright. Everything went dead, actually. No brake light, no emergency blinkers, no headlight, no nothing. (Strangely, after it'd cooled down a bit, it started right back up like nothing had happened.)

So, I'm stuck in the leftmost lane, next to the median, and have to figure out a way to get through all those lanes of fast traffic pushing a scooter, to get to the sidewalk. Great fun. Good thing I was only about a mile from home. I once had to push the damned thing 7 miles!

373
General Discussion / Re: Your Kymco Top Speed?
« on: February 21, 2011, 10:15:00 PM »
Year: 2010
Model: Kymco Yager GT 200i
Mileage: 10 (yup, only 10 so far, just got it)
Performance Upgrades: none
Location: Northern California
Climate: 60* F, cloudy, dry, no wind
Rider weight: 190
Acceleration: Slightly slow off the line, but once it gets to about 3000 RPM, it hustles.
Top speed: 65 MPH indicated on flat ground (Yager GT 200i speedos are pretty accurate)
MPG: unknown yet
Notes: Fuel injected, liquid-cooled. Tire pressure: F-25, R-32. Engine not broken in yet (doing the hard break-in procedure). Only took it up to 65 mph and kept it there for a few seconds, had a bit more throttle left, but since it's still being broken in, I don't want to actually break it, just break it in.

374
Yager GT 200i / Re: Antifreeze recommendations?
« on: February 21, 2011, 07:21:59 AM »
So I went to Kragen and did some perusing of their antifreeze offerings. If I didn't know better, I'd think the anti-freeze manufacturers were TRYING to make it as difficult as possible to choose the correct anti-freeze product for any particular application.

===============

COLOR NOTE:
The color of anti-freeze is no indication that it will work in your system! The color is only a dye, and gives no indication that it is the proper anti-freeze for your particular coolant system.

DEXCOOL NOTE:
DexCool is not a specific formula, it just denotes that the anti-freeze product passed GM's testing requirements. All three brands that have the label (Texaco Havoline, Prestone Extended Life and Zerex Extended Life) are somewhat similar. In particular, they’re OAT (Organic Acid Technology) coolants. All DexCool-approved coolants to date use two organic acid rust/corrosion inhibitors, one called sebacate, the other called 2-EHA (which stands for 2-ethylhexanoic acid).

INGREDIENT NOTES:
The ingredients listed below are found in various anti-freeze products. The notes on the ingredients are what I could glean from various internet resources.

===============

INGREDIENTS:

NJTSRN QT1:
The ingredient NJTSRN QT1 (New Jersey Trade Secret Registration Number QT1) is a trademark secret, owned by CCI Manufacturing (cci-il.com). Since it is a trademarked secret ingredient, no one except CCI knows the actual chemical makeup of this ingredient. Hence, it is unknown what effect this ingredient might have upon your system. As such, I can't recommend that anyone use any anti-freeze which lists NJTSRN QT1 as an ingredient. This was listed as an ingredient in Kragen's 'OReilly Extended Life Universal' and Peak 'Long Life 50/50'.

POTASSIUM 2-ETHYL HEXANOATE:
DO NOT USE THIS INGREDIENT! This is an OAT (Organic Acid Technology) ingredient. If the least bit of air gets into your system, it will turn into a rusty-colored sludge that will plug up coolant passages (i.e.: Dexcool used it, and has gained the nickname 'DeathCool'). Your coolant expansion tank will sludge up, since it is exposed to air. OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. This was not listed on any of the anti-freeze products I looked at, but is known to be used in some Dex-Cool anti-freeze products.

SODIUM 2-ETHYL HEXANOATE:
This is an OAT (Organic Acid Technology) ingredient. This carries a similar warning to Potassium 2-Ethyl Hexanoate above. In addition, it is a plasticizer (softens plastic) that degrades certain gasket materials. OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. This was listed as an ingredient in Prestone 'Extended Life 50/50'.

SODIUM NEODECANOATE:
This ingredient is an acidic buffer, what is known as OAT (Organic Acid Technology). Laboratory testing is impressive with this stuff, but real-world results are less impressive (i.e.: it's been found that once the OAT technology buffers are contaminated with rust, their buffering capacity falls off greatly, and corrosion rates increase). OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. This was listed on the Prestone Extended Life 50/50, and is known to be used in some Dex-Cool anti-freeze products.

DENATONIUM BENZOATE:
This is what is known as a 'bittering agent'. It is used to make the anti-freeze taste bitter to pets and children, and has been suggested by lawmakers as an additive for said purposes. It is unknown what effects this chemical has on engine components. This ingredient was not listed on any of the anti-freeze products I looked at.

BENZOATE:
A component of OAT (Organic Acid Technology), an acidic buffer. Using solely OAT coolant is something to avoid with our scooters. OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. None of the anti-freeze products I looked at listed this as an ingredient.

SEBACATE:
A component of OAT (Organic Acid Technology), an acidic buffer. Not as effective at corrosion protection at lower pH levels. Again, using solely OAT coolant is something to avoid with our scooters. OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. None of the anti-freeze products I looked at listed this as an ingredient.

BORATE:
A component of OAT (Organic Acid Technology), an acidic buffer. Can attack aluminum if silicate levels are low (and modern anti-freeze products mostly contain low silicate levels). Again, using solely OAT coolant is something to avoid with our scooters. OAT anti-freeze ingredients take a long time to lay down a protective layer of metal oxide (the passivation layer) to protect the metal. Hence, if your water pump is cavitating and exposing fresh metal (as I suspect ours do, with the high RPMs developed), OAT will not work quickly enough to protect it. The result will be a badly corroded and eroded pump impellar. None of the anti-freeze products I looked at listed this as an ingredient.

PHOSPHATE:
Particularly effective in protecting water pumps from corrosion after cavitation erosion. Phosphate is known to precipitate in hard water, so you MUST use distilled water for any phosphate-based anti-freeze products, or you'll get sludge. None of the anti-freeze products I looked at listed this as an ingredient.

===============

METALS:
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Aluminum corrosion is best inhibited by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and borate.

Cast aluminum corrosion is best inhibited by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and molybdate.

Copper corrosion is best inhibited by molybdate and most poorly by benzoate.

High-lead solder corrosion is best inhibited by molybdate and phosphate and most poorly by nitrate, silicate and benzoate.

Low-lead solder corrosion is best inhibited by tolytriazole and molybdate and most poorly by nitrate and silicate.

Mild steel corrosion is best inhibited by molybdate, phosphate and nitrite and most poorly by tolytriazole and benzoate.

Gray cast iron corrosion is best inhibited by nitrate and most poorly by benzoate, tolytriazole, and borate.
----------

CHEMICALS:
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Phosphate is the most ubiquitous and most controversial inhibitor. It is a well known inhibitor of ferrous metal corrosion. Europeans specify non-phosphate coolants because phosphates have a propensity to precipitate in hard water (and most European water is hard water). Also, phosphates can cause a negative corrosion rate of aluminum (i.e.: not only does the aluminum not corrode, but free aluminum molecules in the coolant will re-attach to the aluminum engine components). This beneficial effect peaks at concentrations of about 3 gm/liter and decreases at both lower and higher concentrations. Typical concentrations in coolants range from 0 to 8 g/l.

Nitrate is included in virtually all coolant formulations because of its efficacy in preventing aluminum radiator pitting, with presumably no negative side effects for other metals. A typical concentration is 2 g/l.

Tolytriazole is similarly included in virtually all formulations owing to its effectiveness in preventing cupreous (copper-based) metal corrosion. A typical concentration is 1 g/l.

Molybdate is a broadly beneficial additive. It prevents corrosion in many metals and acts synergistically with phosphates and silicates to prevent corrosion in others. Molybdate also seems to prevent cavitation damage; it is usually selected to perform this function in non-phosphate coolants. Typical molybdate concentrations are 2 to 3 g/l.

Borate is the most commonly used buffer for coolant systems. Off the shelf, American coolants tend to have a pH of 10 or higher (this is an alkaline pH), while European coolants tend to have a pH of 7 to 8.5 (which is near neutral to very slightly alkaline). In service, the pH of American coolants often drops to 8. Unfortunately, borate tends to have a direct and negative effect on aluminum corrosion. In spite of this, the importance of keeping coolants well buffered is great enough to keep borate in coolant formulations. A typical concentration is 4 g/l.

Benzoate (and Nitrite, which is not mentioned here) are part of the British Standards Institute's [BSI] Corrosion Inhibited Ethanediol Anti-freeze formulation. Benzoate is more common in European coolants than American coolants and is described as a ferrous metals corrosion inhibitor.

Silicates are necessary in the protection of aluminum. The problem is that silicates are not indefinitely stable in solution. Other additives can be used to stabilize silicates somewhat. The lifespan of coolants could be considered by the presence of an adequate silicate concentration. 2 g/l is an effective concentration of silicate.
----------

===============

Here are the anti-freeze products I looked at:
Oreilly Extended Life Universal -
Ingredients: Ethylene Glycol, Di-Ethylene Glycol, Water, NJTSRN QT1

Peak Long Life 50/50 -
Ingredients: Ethylene Glycol, Di-Ethylene Glycol, Water, NJTSRN QT1

Prestone Extended Life 50/50 -
Ingredients: Ethylene Glycol, Di-Ethylene Glycol, Sodium 2-Ethyl Hexanoate, Sodium Neodecanoate

OReilly Antifreeze and Coolant (Black Bottle) -
Ingredients: Ethylene Glycol, Di-Ethylene Glycol, Water

NOTE: Most ethylene glycol antifreeze contains a few percent diethylene glycol, present as an inadvertent byproduct of ethylene glycol production.
===============

I chose the OReilly Antifreeze and Coolant (Black Bottle), simply because it doesn't list any ingredients known to be harmful to our type of engine.

===============

I also bought some Water-Wetter. The basic marketing premise behind Water-Wetter is that it reduces the surface tension of water. It also contains anti-corrosion ingredients.

Should localized boiling occur in the cylinder head coolant passages, the steam bubbles would form, come into contact with cooler surrounding coolant and collapse, which creates shock waves that can strip the protective metal oxide layer from the coolant passage.

Should your water pump cavitate (i.e.: turn so fast that it literally lowers the suction pressure so much that the liquid flashes to steam), the same effect would take place, with the collapsing steam bubbles stripping off the pump impellar's protective passivation layer.

Water-Wetter claims to attack this problem in two ways:
1) It reduces the surface tension of these bubbles, allowing for smaller bubble formation and hence smaller shockwaves, and hence less metal oxide (passivation) layer erosion.

2) The anti-corrosion ingredients help to quickly form a new protective metal oxide layer in those instances where the old layer has been stripped off.

Here are the ingredients of Water-Wetter, according to its MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet):
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter%20MSDS.pdf

---------------
1) Di-isopropyl alcohol ether: 1-40%
(Note: They mis-spell this in the MSDS as 'Dilsopropyl alcohol ether'.)
(Note: The listed CAS #25265-71-8 is for dipropylene glycol.)

2) Tri-isopropyl alcohol diether: 1-40%
(Note: The listed CAS #24800-44-0 is for tripropylene glycol.)

3) Sodium molybdate: 2-10%
(Note: The listed CAS #10102-40-6 is for molybdic acid sodium salt dihydrate.)

4) Tolyltriazole: 1-3%
(Note: The listed CAS #29385-43-1 is for tolyltriazole.)

5) Polysiloxane polymer: n/a
---------------

NOTE: There is no such thing as Di-isopropyl alcohol ether (or Dilsopropyl alcohol ether). The CAS number on the Water-Wetter MSDS is actually dipropylene glycol.

NOTE: There is no such thing as Tri-isopropyl alcohol diether. The CAS number on the Water-Wetter MSDS is actually tripropylene glycol.

The anti-corrosion ingredients are Sodium Molybdate and Tolyltriazole.

The Polysiloxane polymer acts as a stabilizer for the silicates in the propylene glycol, preventing it from coming out of solution.

So, it would appear that Water-Wetter is nothing more than propylene glycol anti-freeze (silicate-based), with sodium molybdate and tolyltriazole anti-corrosion ingredients, with a silicate stabilizer.

Note that you can mix ethylene glycol and propylene glycol together, but doing so makes it impossible to check the coolant's strength using a hydrometer, owing to the differences in the specific gravities of the two coolants.


RedLine makes the following claims:
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CLAIM: Unique agent for cooling systems that doubles the wetting ability of water

Yes, of course it increases the 'wetting ability', if compared to straight water with no additives. So does regular old ethylene glycol and propylene glycol anti-freeze.
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CLAIM: Rust and corrosion protection allows for use of straight water in racing or reduced antifreeze levels in warm climates

Water-wetter does provide corrosion-protection chemicals that may not be in your existing anti-freeze. If those chemicals are already in your existing anti-freeze, then Water-Wetter provides no additional benefit in this regard.

As for the 'reduced antifreeze levels' (which should read 'reduced antifreeze concentration' to avoid confusion) claim, that's because Water-Wetter IS primarily anti-freeze. You're simply swapping ethylene glycol for propylene glycol.
-----
CLAIM: Improves heat transfer and reduces cylinder head temperature

Again, over straight water, this would be true. While straight water has greater heat transfer capabilities than either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol, that is only up to the boiling point of water. Once you exceed that point, the heat transfer capability of straight water declines precipitously, because the boiling leads to less metal being exposed to water and more being exposed to steam (note that if you had enough coolant flow to strip the bubbles from the metal surface, you would actually see an increased heat transfer capability when boiling occurred, but then you'd also have high enough flow to erode the aluminum oxide passivation layer, which would result in rapid corrosion).

So by adding Water-Wetter to straight water, you're increasing the 'wetting ability' of the water, allowing smaller steam bubbles to form during boiling, and as such, increasing the capability of the fluid to transfer heat. That said, regular old propylene glycol will do the same thing (as would regular old ethylene glycol).

In addition, in older engines which have only run water as their coolant, there may be scale lining the radiator tubes and cylinder coolant passages. The addition of Water-Wetter may help to loosen and remove that scale, thereby increasing the heat transfer capabilities. For new engines, Water-Wetter would provide no benefit in this regard.

Extensive dyno testing has proven that the heat transfer capabilities fall within the margins of testing error when comparing straight water to water + Water Wetter, and when comparing a 50:50 antifreeze:water mixture to that same mixture supplemented with Water Wetter.
-----
CLAIM: May allow more spark advance for increase power and efficiency

This would be true for straight water based coolant systems that are 'on the edge' in regards to being able to dump engine heat. For systems that are capable of dumping engine heat easily, or for ethylene glycol or propylene glycol based coolant systems, Water-Wetter would provide no benefit in this regard.
-----
CLAIM: Compatible with new or used antifreeze (including DEX-COOL and long-life versions) to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems

For ethylene glycol based coolant systems, I can see where this would be true. For propylene glycol based coolant systems, I can't see how adding more propylene glycol (which is the primary component of Water-Wetter) would make a difference.
-----
CLAIM: Satisfies ASTM D2570 and ASTM D1384 corrosion tests for glycol-based antifreezes

This much is true.
-----

Another aside... it has been said that some motorcycle tracks don't allow ethylene glycol or propylene glycol coolant when racing, because a crash leading to a coolant leak would leave a slick spot that could be dangerous to racers. Yet, they allow straight water and Water-Wetter. Considering that Water-Wetter is primarily propylene glycol, perhaps those race tracks should rethink this policy.
===============

375
Yager GT 200i / Antifreeze recommendations?
« on: February 20, 2011, 07:39:22 AM »
Still haven't had a chance to ride my Yager! Recovering from foot surgery, and it's been raining and cold here.

In reading through the user manual for the Kymco Yager GT 200i, I notice this blurb:
"Using coolant with silicate inhibitors may cause premature wear of water pump seals or blockage of radiator passages."

1) What names do the silicate inhibitors go by in name-brand antifreezes, so I know which antifreeze to avoid?

2) Can we use the new low-silicate ethylene glycol antifreezes that are available?

3) What does everyone else use? What's the best antifreeze to use for this scooter?

4) Does anyone use Water-Wetter? Do you recommend doing so?

5) What color is the antifreeze that comes with the bike from the dealer? I know there's a little view-port on the overflow tank that you're supposed to check, but I can't see anything there. You'd think it'd be the standard green or orange or red color, but I see nothing. I'll take the access cover for the overflow tank off tomorrow, and see what I can see.

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