KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => LIKE 200i => Topic started by: vespbretta on April 08, 2017, 09:31:26 PM
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Ok guys,
this afternoon I got cancelled a date and so I decided quickly to spend my time otherwise. :)
I thought I wanted to join the club of the DIY tire changers earlier this year. ;D
So I started with the front wheel. I expected it to be a very easy one, but surprisingly it wasn´t in parts.
The first step was to push back the brake caliper and the pads apart a bit. Easy.
Second step I opened the wheel nut, removed the axle and took out the wheel. Easy.
So I felt confident for the rest of it too. But....
... one shouldn´t praise the day before the evening. ;)
Being curious I took the whole old wheel (rim plus tire) on a wheel balancer stand, to find out, how much the Kendas were out of balance and out of round all the time and over the last 10.000km. I was surprised twice by two results I didn´t expect that way.
The Kenda tire and the rim weren´t out of round at all, perfect run. Neither radially nor laterally out of round. Wow!
But the hole package turned pretty quickly towards the heaviest spot near the valve stem. Well, the heaviest spot is at the valve stem most of the time, so I didn´t question it at first. But then I tried to balance it temporarily to get a weight number. I ended up sticking a 14mm socket of 2oz(!)/56grams(!) on the opposite side of the valve stem. :o
I was puzzled a bit, because that probably couldn´t result only from the tire...
So I released the air, cut the old valve off and put towels and some old papers on the floor and started to break the bead. At first I thought with a little windex and some thumb pressure I might get these tires easily off the rim. But no way! No chance with thumbs alone. So I used 2 medium c-clamps. But still no chance. Only with the additional help of the rubberized ends of a pipe wrench I got it plopped down. Same thing on the other side. At this time I already felt warm a bit. :)
Then I lubed the tire and bead a bit with tire mounting paste and tried to get that tire completely off the rim. But that was a real bitch and it made me sweat. While the first side was tolerable difficult, the other side was almost undoable. Not with the rim protectors I extra ordered. Because they were too thick. So I took something else (much thinner plastic) and worked my way along with the tire mounting irons and the pipe wrench. After a pretty long and tough fight I finally got that damn Nylon Kenda off the rim. Puhhh.
So I for sure woudn´t want to do that every day without a proper machine.
At this time I was a bit discouraged. because when the removal was that tough, how tough would an installation of a reinforced new tire be...
In my imaginations I already saw myself bringing the rim and the tire to the dealer for installation on Monday. :)
That all looked on youtube videos much easier.
Then I put the naked rim alone and without valve stem onto the balancer stand and let it turn. Almost same results as before with tire and valve stem!
Conclusion: This Kenda quality pass checked rim is out of balance by about 50grams or almost 2oz at the valve stem hole! Should I now stick wheel weights at first onto the inside of the rim where they can´t be seen? Or better not. No idea...maybe better not sticking things to the inside of the rim
that might come loose. At that time I felt unsure a bit. Installation of the new 90° valve stem then followed and some pliers were needed with some force again.
Anyway I didn´t give up, lubed the new tire and the rim bead with mounting paste and put on the first side on the rim. Also not totally easy, but achievable with acceptable effort. Same thing with second side of the tire. Kneeling on that sidewall with both knees and working my way around with the irons was pretty ok then. In fact I felt this installing process in the end much easier and less breathtaking than the removal of the old tire. Although it was a reinforced tire!
Lubed bothes sides of the tire and bead again with mounting paste, aligned the red dot to the valve stem and then filled it quickly with my new portable Stanley10bar/5Liter compressor. The sidewalls popped soon and I put 3 bar on it for propper first seat and reduced pressure soon after to 1,8 bar.
Then I put the new wheel/tire combination onto the balancer stand to see how much weight I must add. I ended up putting 35grams onto the rim, not really happy with that much weight (was hopeing to not exeed 20grams) and doesn´t look too good, but what else could I have done? 20-30grams inside the rim?
New tire turned totally round and evenly on the rim also, so job was almost done successfully. :)
Remounting the wheel back into the fork was a bit of a bitch again, because I could have had one or two hands more for help, but in the end after a while of trial and error, I got it installed. And before doing that, I of course regreased the axle, the collar and the speedometer drive unit with multipurpose grease. Wheel bearing are still good and they turn smoothly and easily.
I also add some pictures,so that you can see some of my tools and my new tire. It´s a Heidenau K58 mod. made in 3rd week of 2017.
Not sure, if I will be happy with that tire, because as a reinforced front tire it feels very stiff, even with lower tire pressure. Could be harsh rides in the future. But I will see soon. Otherwise I like the open thread design of the tire. Forest- and Gravelroads may now come. 8)
This story is to be continued with the hopefully also successful rear tire change report (maybe soon the next couple of days). But I need to get some high temperature black spray paint for the muffler first on Monday. So stay tuned patiently and have a beer or two in the meantime. ;) :D
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Kymco rims want manly 14mm sockets not tiny little girly 5g wheel weights... ;D
And I peeled off the quality pass check sticker inside the rim too. Must have been attached accidentally by the inspector.... :o
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Excellent write-up Robo! I thoroughly enjoyed reading of your tribulations installing the new tire. I was smiling the whole time, sounds exactly like most of my working on vehicle experiences. Your floor looks a lot like mine, I have Australian Cypress.
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Well done Robo,
Nice job and thanks for sharing this with us.
I am interested that even your front tire is reinforced. I did not know that they produced such a tire for the front of a scooter.
And it does seem like a lot of weight was required to achieve a balanced wheel and tire.
Perhaps I will add those special beads to achieve better balancing for both my scooters - however I have not noticed any issues with the ride quality of the last 3 scooters I've ridden - and do not recall ever seeing any weights present. (but, maybe they are there and I just haven't spotted them)
Look forward to your next posting!
Best regards, Stig
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Ok, here is the second part of my report. I call it the pre easter scooter nightmare. If you want to know why, read on.
My intention, aim , goal was to find the best, easiest and quickest way to do do a rear tire change on a Kymco Like.
And I found it - in parts. Unfortunately I failed twice, and at the very last step so terribly that I am in deep trouble now with the scooter.
Giving you this as a "teaser", let´s now put some detail on it.
1. Put the scooter on centerstand higher with a 2 inch piece of wood. Easy but not necessary.
1. Disconnected Oxygen sensor cable. Easy
2. Removed muffler. More or less easy with some patience to find the right angle to get it out.
3. Removed both damper bolts and lowered the gear down to maximum. You will get maybe 2 inches more clearance. Easy.
4. Loosened and removed wheel nut with large torque wrench. Easy after locking the brake levers with a large zip-tie. Easy. No flipover of scooter.
5. Removed rear brake caliper after loosening the rear brake lever. Easy.
6. Now here is one of the interesting parts of this report. I could easily remove the fork by hand, released the air out of the tire and just bent the fender hugger up and out of the way along with the damper backwards and pulled the wheel out pretty easily, squeezing the tire a little here and there. But the oil dipstick must be removed also for this step. So that was a very easy and quick one. And totally painfree.
7. Attempts to get the old Kenda tire off the rim (breaking the bead and taking it off afterwards) was the first part of the nightmare. Thought seriously about bringing it to the tire shop. But I wanted to get the job done, so I continued and lost pacience afte a while and used pretty much force with the mounting irons, neglected the rim protection and scratched my rim pretty severely just to get it off. So, if you dont have the propper tool, let the tire shop do it. Stig/Tom did the absolute right thing here. Next time I will have my tires changed or at least the old ones removed by a tire shop, for sure.
8. Mounting of new reinforced tire was also tough, tougher than the front tire, but with some fearless force and more scratches on the rim, I could get it on too.
9. Balanced the wheel with 40grams, 20 on each sie of the rim (4x5g pieces on each side).
10. Replaced the bearing in the fork with the new one. Wasn´t really necessary, old one was still good imho. Old one is a TPI bearing with some extra clearance (C3). Removing of old bearing was tough and could only be done at home by heating the fork up pretty heavily with a heat gun (switch position 2) and then pull out the bearing with a bearing puller tool with slide hammer - which I orderd from Amazon UK some weeks ago.
New bearing installed frozen into the newly heated fork with a 30mm socket and a hammer. That went pretty well and easily.
11. Reinstalling of tire was easy again, even with full infalted new tire. Similar to the removal. Quick and easy.
12. Same thing with the rest of the job until the muffler installation. My second and actual nightmare...
13. Before installing the muffler I repainted it with black heatresistant paint. Very beautiful, looks like a new muffler.
14. After the muffler has dried overnight, I installed the shiny "new" muffler to the scooter yesterday. Like Stig/Tom I used some ropes to hold the muffler approximately in place for fixing the headnuts. This method works great.
I felt a bit in a hurry for some unrational reasons and wanted to get it done quickly (lack of patience). Before doing that I extra looked up the torque specs for the exhaust bolts (head and fork). I do have several maintanace books for torque specs. Long story short, I must have had a total blackout, was confused yesterday and mixed up the torque values totally.
So I ended up - with my worst nightmare so far - overtightening the headbolts and stripped out at least one cylinderhead aluminium thread.....the other one holds so far, but probably also overtightend already.
This is of course now a complete gamechanger. Terrible. Failing so badly (shame on me) :-[ short before the finishing line is disapointing. But now it is what it is. I need to find a way to get it either repaired with helicoil, time sert or something similar or try it myself with the right tools. But there is only one try left. After that a new cylinder head would probably be needed. Problem is, that I don´t kow anyone who is specialized for that and has the propper tools to do the job correctly.
These two bolts and threads can be reached from underneath, but its not much space, centerstand is close.
Already talked to some mechanics. Might be a expensive job. Maybe pulling the whole engine out of the frame? Or pulling the cylinder head?
Without pulling the engine/head, the scooter must be lifted into the air somehow with ropes, to get the required free space to work from underneath the scooter.
At the moment the scooter is more or less "grounded" and I am quit a bit puzzled what to do next and best. Will think about it over the long weekend.
Any helpful ideas from your side?
Just as an advise and a reminder, manifold headbolt torque spec is 15NM. (M6).
I also add again some pictures to show parts of the work.
And never forget, DIY is not always the best and cheapest way of maintanance..... :-\
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More pics...
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Good morning dear Robo, (you are a special person to post your goof's - so we all can learn!)
I know you must be crestfallen - your situation will/has happened to all of us in our DIY life.
But, I think you might discover that, yes this area is hard to get to for the repairs and tools you will need - but not impossible.
Fortunately our scooter is not massively heavy. and on the center stand with front wheel on the ground - I measure that the those stud holes are @ 12" off the ground. Lifting the front wheel/ putting rear tire on the ground gets you a bit more. Some wood or bricks under the rear wheel & center stand, rear tire again grounded, front wheel supported securely up ....gets you quite a bit more room to work.
Remove studs, tap new threads, helicoil insert, etc. Seems possible since you use only a tap and a small hand tool to tap new thread.?? Not much room needed to work. Tap follows hole and aligns self.
A self tapping stud would be ideal - if found. They make them for old VWs. Has a space to cut and collect shavings with-in itself.
Many videos of this nature...
https://youtu.be/aqtdPznBLB0?t=71
A side, personal note Robo - Many good mechanics use only a torque wrench on all fasteners - but I simply do not trust torque wrenches for the alloys and small fasteners on our scooters (learned this working on VWs for years) I consider the bolt size, the metal, and what/why it is to fasten? Our muffler is mostly held by the bigger fasteners at the rear....these little studs don't have much to support at the engine.
Perhaps the answer is for me to spend a lot of $ to get a good, safe torque wrench?
In any event - take heart dear LIKE/scooter friend. Robo, I think you can do this with only a bit more work. I truly do. should not even cost very much $ for the items needed.
Please keep us in the loop.
This is a special week-end ....and for you & your scooter!
My regards, Stig
(https://s16.postimg.org/bpuczibpx/avatar11.jpg)
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Hey Tom,
thanks a trillion for your kind and understanding words and the hints. :)
I also already thought about getting this new job done and did some research.
My problem now is, getting the right tools for that job. I would certainly need a special blindhole taper, regular coned standard tapers for clearance holes are no good for this. Probably also a special drill for this. But which one? 8mm HSS? Which helicoil insert piece? Or better time sert or strong sert or... What method would be best? Glue it in also ? With what? Loctite red? Liquid metal?
Glue the bolt in too after screwing it in? Don´t want to take it out again anyways. And if fairly treated with copper paste/Never seeze it should never rust out and away. Soft aluminium is somewhat critical to work on...
THe other problem is to get the scooter lifted and fixated. I need to find an old garage or a carport where I can lift the scooter onto mineral water crates back and front and fix it with some tensioning straps to the ceiling beams. This way I might get enough clearance to wprk from underneath the scooter.
The other alternative is only to remove the cylinder head and get it repaired or replaced with a new one.
We will see.
Anyway, happy easter weekend! :D
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Interesting post. Do you have room to re-tap to next larger thread. If so I would tap with fine tread (nf) and maybe ever use an SAE bolt. The only things that I use a torque wrench on is head bolts, rod caps, crank and cam bearing caps. All others are not that critical. Hardened steel to aluminum is never a good combination, They don't play well together. Take your time and you will get her done. It takes a man to admit he messed up. Count it all as a learning experience. Good luck my friend and let us know the results.
Mac
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Robo I feel your pain. I did that many years ago on a Yamaha trials bike I had, but unlike you I had easy access to drill out and put a helicoil in place. All I can say is take your time as you really only want to go at it once. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but know I am cheering you on from the sideline. Keep us posted.
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I did the same thing on the spark plug threads on my People 150. Fortunately a helicoil fixed it. I am pulling for ya man.
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Short update and intermittent report:
Talked to several tech. people about solving my stud/bolt problem. They all strongly recommended to take out the cylinderhead to be able to do a good job on the thread repair.
So I did that today, took about 2 hours, and brought it afterwards to a special engine/cylinderhead overhaul repair service in town.
They have all the needed equipment to do it correctly. It´s their daily job. Mine isn´t and I would only have a good chance to fail once more...
Will take some days to get it done and until the ordered spareparts (new expensive!gaskets) will arrive also.
Maybe on weekend I will be able to continue with the reassembly.
Bye the way:
Did you know that the o-ring of the intake manifold is not available alone? Only the whole intake manifold with the o-ring (because it´s glued in lightly not to fall off on assembly)....
Well that´s of course laughable, so I will also have to look for an o-ring somewhere... hope I will find one somewhere.
Edit: Did some more research on this and found out that the o-ring for the Like 125 is available alone. It´s a 27mm x 2mm there. Maybe the Like 200 uses the same o-ring. Will buy some o-ring samples in an o-ring shop and do some testing.
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Thanks for the up-date Robo...have been nervous -- and curious for you.
Lots of work, but hopefully you can photo detail some of your efforts.
I, for one, would like to see how this looks as it is comes apart and goes together again?
Will look this side of Pond for the mentioned O-ring. I'm sure you'll find one with the old one in hand.
I bet a motorcycle shop will have them in a drawer for $1.00.
i bought several similar size O-rings for my Burgman's oil changes after careful measuring....from web site that specializes in such products. They fit perfectly. Made for heat, oil, gas exposure etc. NOT expensive.....Suzuki price was crazy - my impetus for the search!
Hang in there!
We're thinking of you!
Stig
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Next intermittent short report and pictures:
Cylinderhead is back home from repair. Clean and good work - I guess - with heli coil inserts on both bolts. €50,- (punishment deserved ;))
Still pretty clean combustion chamber after 11000km. New sparkplug at 10000km.
As you can see, the rubber gasket around the edge of the cylinderhead which seals the head to the "engine fan cowlings" - or whatever they are called - is already broken, worn, cracked and dried out. Of course has a heavy duty life there, dealing with a lot of heat all the time....
Because I was already in there, I decided to replace that gasket also and ordered a new one from the dealer.
But I would not recommend to do that as a regular service job alone! You would have to remove and take apart way too many things. Does not pay off. So Stig, leave yours in there. ;D
Still waiting for all the gaskets via snailmail from the dealer. Except the 27mm x 2mm o-rings which I got from an o-ring store today.
Maybe mid next week reassembly. Will keep you posted.
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Good on you Robo!
Thanks for the pictures....helps us follow along.
Plus it's cool to see the inside of our LIKE - which I hope never to do!
I think you are somewhat like me, in that we both kinda enjoy taking this scooter apart - but this fun has limits , yes?!
Hang in there - almost home Robo!
Looking forward to your assembly pictures - popcorn already in the microwave.
Regards to you.
Stig
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Allright folks, after an unplanned and unwanted delay of almost 2 weeks I now can post: It is finished. :) I´m back on the road again. 8)
Took almost 4hrs for reassembly. But I was very careful this time. No photos taken.
I´m too tired to do a full detailed report on this, so just a few important remarks:
It´s hard to get correct information about torque specs from Kymco. Kind of a mission impossible and a farce too.
I got several torque values for the M8 cylinderhead nuts. Ranging from 21NM to 26NM. I took the lowest. 21NM. Felt already pretty tight. I hope that will be enough. And 10NM for the long M6 bolts on the side.
Camshaft reinstall was easier than expectet. But I marked chain and sprocket before removal. ;)
27x2 gasket was easily glued in lightly on just some small spots in the groove. With Pattex Gel compact flexible. No problems then to install the intake manifold.
Kymco spare parts via dealer are very expensive. 65% more than a online internet order. :o Three gaskets only for €75,-. ::)
This time torqued muffler bolt nuts only to 12NM. ;D Greased with copper paste.
Scooter started instantly on the push of the button as always after reassembly. ;D 8)
Testride was good. Engine sounds and runs like always. No saliences.
New Heidenau tires are way better than the Kendas. Second to none. And balancing wheels seems to be a good thing too. Much smoother ride now. I now can ride freehands without any shimmy. 8)
The heat resistant paint for the exhaust chiped off again pretty soon in the upper aerea of the exhaust manifold between flange and Oxygen sensor. Obviously too hot for the paint there. No big deal. It´s not in the visual range for someone anyway.
Conclusio:
If you buy Kymco (chinese scooters), ride it as long as it lasts and then get rid of it the one way or the other pretty quickly.
Don´t try to do big (engine/gear)repairs on these vehicles yourself. Spare parts are very expensive and you won´t get propper torque specs or propper technical information to do the repair savely yourself. There is always a certain risk remaining due to these undocumented aluminium threads.
And one should have quiet a bit experience as a mechanic to repair chinese scooters.
After this challenge and adventure I do understand much better why many mechanics don´t want to service or repair chinese scooters... ;)
Thanks to all of you who tried to encourage me and who posted tips and tricks and hints.
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Thanks for the last chapter here Robo.
This mini-series had all the ingredients of a good story:
-mystery, anger, kindness, pathos, violence, joy, high finance, heartaches and then humor as the solo scooter rider rides over the horizon into the Austrian Alps.....still grumbling about, and to, his horse.
You faltered as a human.....then recovered and conquered as in a good western movie.
Well done, you!
Seriously.....you know quite well that this could have been, and has been, any one of us amateur scooter mechanics.
Ride safe....and aren't we due a couple more of your truly excellent scooter/Austrian scenery photos?
Your fellow LIKE200i rider...Stig
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Yes indeed, there were some good ingredients into that story provided. Just because of a single stripped thread at the right place. ;)
I´m truly happy that I could make it.
Photos:
At the moment it´s cold again and weather is not too good. But I am working on posting some photos of my aerea plus my "cured chinese horse" again.
But it´s not that easy to take a good scenery picture including the scooter here in and around a busy town. Without scooter it would be much easier, because I could take pictures from the sidewalk as a pedestrian. And on other scenic routes outside of town there is often lots of fast traffic too during the day. Difficult to park on the side of the road to take pictures. Maybe better and easier and safer for the early birds, but I am not that kind of a guy who flees bed at 4a.m. Not yet. ;D Maybe in a couple of years when my hair turned significantly more grey or white. ;D
So thanks again and always a good and safe ride to you too! :)
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Hat's off to you! You stuck with it and succeded! Learned valuable lessons! Same way Stig, I and others learned: by occasionally breaking stuff!
Karl
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Thanks Karl! :) Yes, I truely hope that I finally learned my lessons now. I thought that I already have learned my lessons about aluminium threads.
But as the saying goes: "Never say never again." ;D
I new quite a bit about it and it was not the first aluminium thread I had to get repaired on cars or bikes...but it was the first one I personally stripped. The others were stripped by service- and repair shop employees.
No wonder why they sell almost everywhere these heli coil repair sets... :D
And yesterday I found a pretty good and detailed gy6 cylinder head replacement manual with pictures as a pdf on the internet in german language. Too late for me this time, but at least it confirms the torque settings for the headnuts and sidebolts.
22NM - 25NM (M8 nuts)
9NM - 10NM (M6 bolts)
After a few rides and heat cycles I will open up the head cover again and re-torque my nuts to 22NM. And do the valve check and setting.
Headcover bolts 9NM.
Therefore I am quite positive now, that I will get away with a black eye this time. ;D 8)
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Today, after 3 riding and engine heat cycles I reopend the valvecover to retorque the 4 nuts. This time I put 24NM on the torque wrench, but only one nut very slighty turned a little bit further until the wrench clicked again. I think I´ll be fine now.
At this point I also checked the valve lash. But was still the same as before. 0.12mm IN/EX. Didn´t have to adjust.
But the exhaust bolts cap nuts were loose a bit - again...I retorqued them to 12NM. Maybe 15NM needed to remain torqued. I will observe this issue and will keep an eye on it during the next days/weeks.
Cheerio folks! Let´s head em out for the next 12.000 miles within the next couple of years. ;D
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Great thread !
Thanks to all participants !
redk