KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => People 50 => Topic started by: chaz35 on October 13, 2015, 03:02:21 AM
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I've had the kit for awhile (Malossi 319987 bought on sale), finally getting around to installing it. I have been stalling because of concerns about several issues like getting the wrist pin circlip off the piston, chamfering the ports in the cylinder, and working on the engine while still in the scooter. I now have another scooter running I can ride, so can take my time installing the kit, if I run into trouble.
Ideally, would remove the whole engine to work on, but appears a lot of work, so my plan is to just take off enough plastic to get to the engine. Plastic came off easy. This is 2nd time I have taken plastic off this scooter, so I am getting better at it. I took off the seat and bucket, then the 2 side panels came off together. Just 2 screws on the front, 2 nuts on the back, disconnect the wiring for the lights, and it all comes off. Looks like enough room to access the engine OK now. Then, I removed the pipe (already have Tecnigas Next-R pipe) and blower housing, all that came off easy. Next, pull the head bolts, remove the head and cylinder. The cylinder was stuck, so I used a rubber mallet to knock it loose, and slipped it off, exposing the piston/ rod.
Now the hard part, as I suspected the pesky little circlips are difficult to get off and you don't have the room to get at them easily. I tried needle nose pliers 1st, but my pair wasn't up to the job. So, then I popped it out with a small flat screwdriver. I did everything wrong: no safety glasses and didn't use anything to cover the open crankcase, so of course the circlip went flying. I was lucky didn't hit my eye, and haven't found it yet. I am hoping it's not in the crankcase, could be there, but probably not. Just have to remove circlip on one side, then push out the wrist pin and remove the piston. I worked on the scooter on the driveway, not smart, so I covered up the engine best I could and went inside to look at the new kit.
I will stop now for a break, will post more later. Cheers
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OK, have engine installed complete on scooter, but going to take back apart to check it over some. I want to take some measurements, like ring gap, and piston to cylinder clearance and compare with the OEM parts. Want to look for missing circlip in crankcase, chamfer the ports, and look at bottom of the piston where rod connects to wrist pin (just curious, seems like too much slop side to side, but I am sure OK?).
I searched the web for "dropped circlip into crankcase" and got a few threads on what to do. Was interesting reading, seems like common misstake, got some good ideas, how to avoid this problem next time. Also, searched for magnets to retrieve the circlip if it's in the crankcase. There are some really nice magnets out there for not much $'s, may buy one. Also, order a nice pair of needle nose pliers.
I did some research on chamfering the ports and decided to get a flex-hone. I saw several posts where people used them with good results. I am familiar with flex-hone, have used them many times to crosshatch cylinders for 4 cycle kart engines. Basically, takes approx 30 seconds to do the job, and don't have to worry about messing up your cylinder. I ordered 1 7/8" 240 grit alum oxide flex-hone, costs approx $30 shipped.
All for now, working on 05 Super 9, installed Tecnigas Next-R pipe, runs nice, but now need to tune CVT. Cheers
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YKNOLQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2F4U9IFCVIJRU&coliid=I3G4XTL020VASF (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YKNOLQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2F4U9IFCVIJRU&coliid=I3G4XTL020VASF)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X4MOZM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X4MOZM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00455PJ7K?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00455PJ7K?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00)
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Disaster strikes! Got it all back together, started up, and could tell was going to be awesome. Took it for some slow riding, remember recommended 500 mile easy break-end. Was running fine, then started acting up, like carb problem, was hearing some noises I never heard before, was getting hot, so I headed for the house, only rode it less than 10 miles.
I pulled the pipe and piston didn't look good, looked dry, so I pulled the cylinder. Actually, didn't look as bad as I thought it would, but a lot of grime everywhere. No real scoring, rings were loose, everything looked OK, but dirty and worn. Nice tight rod is not nice and tight anymore. Ring gape went from .008" to 1/16". Basically, most likely I was an idiot and didn't clean cylinder enough after honing it with the flex-hone. I think in less than 10 miles I put 25,000 miles on my engine. I don't know what else it could have been unless the Malossi kit was defective, not likely?
Engine probably needs total rebuild at this point, which I don't think I am capable of, especially after this experience. Only idea I have is to pull the engine off the scooter, flush out the case, put it all back together, and see if it will run.
Will be looking for another People 50 2T to try again, think could probably be successful with BBK 2nd time, I learned a lot. I am OK, have messed up stuff in the past and survived, so I am not too worried about it. Sure was a nice running scooter even as 49cc, but that's gone now. :-(
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Did a little more research on cleaning cylinder after using Flex-Hone. I read instructions, but didn't follow them. Supposed to use 10w30 oil. Flex-Hone makes honing oil they recommend, but don't have to use it. Specifically, do not use solvents, like diesel oil, Of course, I used diesel oil.
Apparently, solvents make it harder to remove all the grit after honing, and you don't want to use solvents to clean with either. Hot water and detergent is the recommended way to clean. Actually, I used hot soapy water to clean, which I never used to do, so I had false sense of security I guess. However, hot soapy water apparently works well for oil, but not solvents, like diesel oil. The purpose of the oil is to suspend the grit in the oil, so it comes out when you wash with hot soapy water. Apparently, the solvents are bad about burying the grit in the metal, making it harder to remove.
I always used diesel to hone with and clean up 4 strokes with good results. Usually would blow off with compressed air, wipe down with clean cloth to get most of the diesel off, and then hose it off with the water under pressure. These were racing engines, and would run a little faster if loose anyway, so a little grit after rebuilding was OK. I would change oil after every run, so any impurities got flushed out. 2 cycles are definitely different in that regard, I know that now.
Found another People 50 2T already, but 500 miles round trip to get it, probably too far for now. I am beginning to warm up to rebuilding the engine. Cheers
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Found cycle shop that can split case, so decided to pull engine, clean it up, and possibly have them evaluate it. Actually, looking better to me now, have better attitude about it. Latest issue, wrist pin is stuck in the piston, oh well. Cheers
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pic of engine
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I am thinking about buying the stator puller, appears can get for less than $20 shipped. The tool to split the case and pull the crankshaft are pretty expensive, probably another $200 for both tools, so cheaper to take to shop that already has the proper tools.
I need to verify the stator puller is 24mmx1mm external right hand threads. Anyone know?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CWA07O/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2F4U9IFCVIJRU&coliid=I1B0PH8CYWWP88 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CWA07O/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2F4U9IFCVIJRU&coliid=I1B0PH8CYWWP88)
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My thinking now is, if can pull the crankshaft seals, can probably clean out the crankcase fairly well without splitting the case. Then, assemble with new piston rings, and see how it runs? So, need a stator puller to get to that side crank seal. I think I can pull the seal out with a dry wall screw, anyway had this same idea, then 1st youtube vid I watched used same method to pull seals on old Yamaha 2 cycle engine, that was cool.
If it has problems and needs new crankshaft, not really any worse off than before, except a lot of hours working on it. Cheers
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Be careful to hold handle bar with one hand and back of scooter with the other, when you pickup the scooter to remove the engine. I made the mistake of holding with both hands on the back, the handle bars turned, and the scooter dropped on it's side. With both hands on the back, you don't have any leverage to keep it upright, I quickly found out, so now have bent left brake lever. With one hand on the handle bars to control and one hand on the back to lift, it's easy to move scooter around. Cheers
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I ordered stator puller, 24mm x 1mm external right hand threads. I was able to verify 24mm and right hand threads. When it comes in, I plan to pull the stator, pull the crankshaft seals on both sides, and try to clean out the crankcase best I can. Then, put it all back together and see how it runs. Worst case, I have to disassemble it all over again the rebuild with new parts.
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Got piston pulled. My new needle nose pliers work great, pulled out cir-clips on both sides no problem, very nice to have right tool for the job. Wrist pin stuck, but I made a nifty wrist pin puller out of a block of wood, long bolt, and couple of other items I had laying around, cost $0, worked great. Rod small end needle bearings looked bad until I cleaned them up a little, then looked acceptable, most of the slop went away from rod big end to piston.
I remeasured piston to cylinder clearance and about the same as before running engine. Appears bottom of piston has a little larger OD than top of piston, approx .006" on bottom compared to .008 to .009" on the top. I measured to OEM piston/ cylinder clearance after approx 7500k's and it was approx .003" on the bottom compared to approx .006" on the top. The OEM piston/ clylinder was amazing, had very little wear on the cylinder and probably no wear on the piston. Only issue was some carbon, probably from previous owner running cheap oil. Things are looking up, maybe not so bad after all.
Still waiting on stator puller I ordered. Probably will start cleaning crankcase inside, maybe won't have to pull crank seals. When you rotate the crankshaft, feels gritty now, so know is dirty with flex-hone grit. Next, I am going to flush it out with water from the hose and diesel fuel. Cheers
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Cleaned out the crankcase with diesel, dish detergent and water, compressed air, and light coat of diesel over everything. Seemed clean, but will still probably pull crank seals and clean again, just to be sure. I don't think need to split the case unless something is worn out and needs to be replaced, and so far all is looking OK.
I have old Dremel and tested it some to see if would work to chamfer the ports. I don't have the proper carbide burrs, so did a lot of looking on web for what to get. There are some really cool air micro die grinders I considered. For around $50 could get micro die grinder and set of carbide burrs that would probably work great. Only problem, my air compressor is rated 2.7 cfm at 90psi and the micro grinders use 4 cfm. Probably would work OK, my compressor has 2.5 gallon tank and 150psi max, so would probably run for awhile before running low on air pressure? These micro grinders take 1/8" bits and turn 56000 revs, so if you did a lot of work, would be better than Dremel.
With the Dremel, I probably need Carbide Burrs with 3" shaft, which are hard to find, and expensive. I maybe got lucky and found a really good brand on ebay with 3" shaft, double cut, 9 degree angle, that may work really well for $6.35 shipped. We will see.
Next, I need to order some gaskets, seals, piston rings, prepare the piston/ cylinder, and put it all back together. I will be lucky if I get it running before it gets cold. It's already getting cold for night riding. Cheers
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Got my 3" shaft carbide burr in and used it with Dremel to chamfer the ports a little. I practiced on the OEM 49cc cylinder removing some carbon and chamfering the ports too. Works pretty well, but can't run max revs or wobbles too much. I think burr is straight, think my Dremel is worn.
Waiting for some parts, then can finish it up. Unfortunately, based upon past experience, will probably be another month before I get everything in. Fortunately, my two Super 9's are running like champs, went on long ride on 05 Super 9 today, it was flying. Cheers
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Hopefully have all parts to finish putting back together. Weather is wet and cold here, but supposed to get nice in a couple of days, so looking forward to working on it. 1st up, pull the crank seals and make sure the crank bearings are clean.
I noticed Malossi has final drive kit for People 50 2T part number 6711055, anybody install?
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Finally looked up your thread. Glad you got it straight. When I did my bbk, I just used a cheap precision file set to knock the edge off the ports. I know easy more now about porting, gotta be careful not to change too much or you'll end up with possibly bad results. I'm about to port my tgb cylinder. If that turns out well I will try my luck on my other malossi cylinder for my super 9. I've been learning a lot at the other forum.
Best of luck.
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Yes, I am glad I tried my 1st BBK on the People 50 rather than Super 9. When I do Super 9, will have some experience, should get better results. Cheers
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I pulled the crank seals and that was a job, stressed me out, looked like I was going to ruin something for sure. I didn't know what I was doing, but had idea to drill small hole in seal, screw in a wood screw, and pull it out with screw anchored into the seal. Execution was sloppy, but was good idea and worked very well after some miss-steps.
I had trouble drilling the hole, drill bit wasn't long enough to clear the crank, and then the screws I used weren't long enough to get leverage on the head to lift them. I used some safety wire to wrap around the screw head, the anchored the other end of the safety wire to a lever and the seal pooped out easy, it was great. Next time, I will use a micro drill mandrel to extend the drill bit, should go better next time.
I messed up the seal pocket and crank journal just a little and need to dress it with some wet/ dry sand paper. I plan to wrap the sand paper around end of electrical conduit to get into the pocket so I can dress up the scratched areas. Would be easier if case was split, but too much trouble to split case just to clean up the scratched areas a little.
Bearings were probably OK, but there was some bad stuff in there. I will do one more cleaning with the water hose and compressed air, then start putting it all back together. Fortunately, having some nice weather, so if I can get some time could have it running soon. Cheers
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Cylinder very difficult to get clean, I realized now what a bad job of cleaning I did the 1st time, my bad. I think bore is pretty easy to clean, but the ports which have a rough casting surface still have some bad stuff in there. I ordered nice spirel wire brush to clean out ports before I put it back together. Looking good, I think it's going to run well. Cheers
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FTPR32?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FTPR32?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00)
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I got in spiral wire brush and worked very well, cleaned out a lot of grime. I wore out the 1/4" brush and ordered 2 more 1/4" and 1/2" to clean out exhaust port. This engine is getting really clean, should not have any issues with it being dirty this time. Maybe bore a little loose now, but looks fantastic, ports appear to be properly chamfered, and nice cross hatching. I measured new rings, piston in bore right side up and upside down like I read to do somewhere and still pretty close to specs I originally measured when I 1st got the kit. It seemed a little loose then, so is even more loose now.
Hold up now is 7mm-1.0 tap to chase the cylinder bolts holes. They are a little messed up, and just wanted to clean them up a little before putting it back together. I didn't measure and assumed they were 8mm, was surprised 7mm, so had to order again, so waiting now.
Also ordered Malossi final gear kit and got it in. I have kit for Super 9 too (Malossi 6711802) and received the Malossi 6711055 for the People 50 2T. The round gear appears to be the same for both kits, but the shafts are different. I hope they fit. I plan to install after I get the BBK running right, think it will add approx 5mph top end, I am thinking this puppy may cruise at over 60mph, we will see. Will be hassle to find shop to press the gears. Cheers
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Another catastrophic failure, discouraging, but oh well.
I got it all back together well enough, actually I am getting good at taking Kymco People 50 scooters apart. Was a little hard to start, so I put some oil/ gas mix down the spark plug hole and it started right up. Made some ugly sounds for just a second, then settled down, maybe rings a little loud, I don't know. Hindsight, I should have pulled the cylinder to see if OK. I let it idle for awhile a couple of times, seemed OK, so I took it for an easy test run. Was running well, and then something let go, I thought it was the rod, the way it sounded. It coasted for a ways making a clanking sound until the clutch disengaged. Engine turned over easy, no compression. I was 3 miles from home and walked it back, a pain.
Best I can tell, piston failed at exhaust port side. I guess too much trauma from the 1st mess-up, plus I was maybe too rough on the ring lands cleaning off the carbon? At 1st when I saw the piston, I thought was lean condition, but I couldn't find any air leaks, carb was jetted rich at 45 slow, 108 main jets, and appeared to be working OK. Just shortly before failing, I could tell the idle was stepping up, and bogged a little before it failed, but I don't think it was lean. After 1st failure, I thought piston was OK, cleaned it up, and installed new rings. I could tell it had good compression from kick starting, it ran crisp, felt great, was going to be really good, but not to be.
Here's a pic of Malossi BBK piston, after it failed.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/img_0374_24008658525_o_zpsxcgairzn.jpg) (http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/img_0374_24008658525_o_zpsxcgairzn.jpg.html)
My plan is to put it back the way it originally was, and see how it runs. I am afraid to try another BBK with this engine without a fresh crankshaft and rod assembly. Cheers
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Interesting, a blown piston like that usually comes from wayyyyyyyy too advanced ignition timing. Did you get the key in where the flywheel mates with the crank? Could have fell out and you had mystery timing.
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Thanks for reply. As I recall, woodruff key was stuck in keyway and I used pliers to remove it, so don't think timing was off. I used kick starter to start engine and was easy to start.
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Thanks for reply. As I recall, woodruff key was stuck in keyway and I used pliers to remove it, so don't think timing was off. I used kick starter to start engine and was easy to start.
Chaz, I know this is no help to your project - but wanted to give you a big thanks for sharing your experiences with us as you work through this hop-up kit.
Your descriptions of how you are going about things - including sharing the mistakes you made - is going to be really helpful to those following behind you.
FYI- this is fascinating stuff to read - though I'd never dare try anything like this due to my limited mechanical skills!
Good luck - hang in there - we're pulling for you!
Think I'll go change the oil in my Burgman....since it's blowing & practically snowing outside. When I can't ride - I want to wrench on a scooter - somewhere simple!
Stig
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Hello Stig, thanks for kind words. Happy New Year to all!
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I definitely agree with @bettinandlosing, looks a lot like some wicked predetonation. And really off timing would be a first guess.
I've been really reading up on how may variables affect our little engines, I think that too high of compression can also cause predetonation. Just a bit from Graham Bell 's book on 2 stroke tuning. A very good read, but beware, it could put you into areas of modifications that you never dreamed of!
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Only thing is, engine wasn't under load, was just loafing along. I think it was too much rod side play. I am afraid to assemble engine, think will get bad outcome again. So, I am going all out to fix this puppy, have ordered case splitting tool, new crank assembly, and new BBK.
I am going to fix it or bust trying. Cheers
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Can't give up on it! Keep trying!
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Got in cool crankcase splitter tool today and split the case. Wasn't too bad, had right tool for the job. Got crankshaft out without the bearings, the bearings stayed in the case halves. I think the bearing on one side was supposed to stay on the crankshaft, but didn't, shouldn't be an issue though. I think the new crankshaft is without bearings. The crankcase had no gasket which is what I expected. I plan to use Hondabond or Yamabond when I put it back together.
The bearing on one side is binding, apparently has some debris from the piston failure. The other bearing looks great, which is amazing after all the trauma. These bearings look huge, this engine is really built, but bearings are not the best quality. The other bearing I will work on a little and see if I can get it to loosen up, or will replace it. If I need to take it out, I will heat the case and the bearing should drop out. I have Ford mechanic friend and that's what he says to do. There are lots of youtube vids showing guys using barbecue grills, kitchen stoves, propane torches, hot plates, etc to remove bearings from cases, if you need instructions lols.
Waiting on crankshaft now. When that comes in will be time to start putting it back together, unless I have to order some more parts. The crankshaft has a tight interference fit into the bearings, and I plan to loosen it by sanding down the crank journals. It's a common technique to loosen up the crankshaft in the bearings in racing engines to lessen any binding, which reduces friction, and makes more HP. You just put the crankshaft in a vice to hold it, cut a strip of maybe 1500 grit sandpaper approx 1/2" x 11" and wrap it around the crank journal. Apply a little oil and work it back and forth to take off just enough OD so it slips into the bearing ID, not loose, but not tight either. No guarantees, but that's what I plan to do.
That's all for now. Cheers
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I've heard of the sanding too,more of a polishing , and a bit of a certain lock tight. Can't remember, 606 maybe?
If you can find the bearings easily you might sound just replace them so you know everything is brand spanking new, no room for failure. When I do mine I'm going to try the freezer and heat gun combo.
Would you mind taking some pictures of all of that, especially by the reed block hole? Maybe with the intake and reed block mocked up in there? I'm trying to decide if a small reed block spacer would be beneficial to reduce any air flow interference. Some bikes they produce deeper than necessary.
Also, what kind of crank did you get? Just a stock replacement, or something better?
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Tries is gonna scoot down to Charlotte and help me out when its time to do my Malossi BBK.........he doesn't know that yet though......
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Tries is gonna scoot down to Charlotte and help me out when its time to do my Malossi BBK.........he doesn't know that yet though......
LMAO, it better be when it's not cold as a well digger's ass. I'm already fed up with this ridiculously cold weather. And I may want to take care of several little things unless I plan on doing a nice big project on the side of a road.
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I can wait a couple months if needed.
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You seem mechanically inclined and smart enough, man! Just take your time, prep the cylinder, and piston if necessary (mine was fine), jeta little rich, and try to break it in easy. You might consider going back to the stock pipe and heavier rollers for a hundred plus miles to keep your rpms down while breaking it in.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to make the trip, it would just be a lot more fun to be able to rip up the streets when I get there instead of pussyfooting around!
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I'll take some pics, but no guarantees. I have a lot of trouble posting pics to this site, took all day to post the pics of the piston.
The crank is oem Kymco. Looks just like the other one, except the rod is tighter. Side play wasn't as tight as I expected, but a lot better than the old one. Probably won't replace the bearings at this point, I am just trying to get this thing to run. I had it completely apart, engine out of the scooter 2x's now and doesn't seem like that big of deal to do it again. Helps I have another scooter to ride.
The crank bearings are huge, and service manual shows can have a lot of radial and side to side play before need to be replaced. Another sign worn out, you notice they are noisey. If I was building a screamer I would install new, better bearings.
I am not doing any mods other than what comes in the Malossi bbk for Kymco AC. No port matching, same oem reeds, manifold, carb, etc.
I did convert my CVT back to 100% oem just to see how it would run with BBK. I ran the oem muffler and carb and plan to do that again for break-in. Also, this next time I plan to plug the wire back and restrict my CDI to limit revs.
pace, just follow my bbk build, and don't do any of the dumb stuff I did, should be OK lol's.
Cheers
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There is one thing about the BBK I don't understand. How does the wrist pin needle bearing stay centered on the small end of the rod? The oem piston is smaller, so the needle bearing is pretty much captured. The bbk piston is wide enough for the needle bearing to move side to side and move almost out of the small end of the rod. Is there something that keeps the needle bearing centered in the rod? Doesn't look right to me?
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Good question. I'm not entirely sure, unless we should be getting a wider bearing. If i remember correctly mine only had maybe 2.5mm on each side that it could move, but I do believe that the one I ordered when I thought my original was bad is just a little, maybe 1mm wider. It would seem more logical for it to have less play to avoid pressure being uneven and beating it up.
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Thanks for reply. I will have to measure, but think is over 1/4" on either side of rod, a lot of play IMO. I may post this question on 49ccscoot see if anyone knows, has comments. Cheers
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I will most likely wait till i have a beater to run as backup so if something goes wrong or takes longer than it should I don't have to rush or possibly mess something up. and I haven't looked that close at my BBK yet but will take a look this week now that I"m jobless with plenty of time. Also Chaz all my pics come from my phone and I use a photo reducing app to post them here.
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Thanks for reply. I will have to measure, but think is over 1/4" on either side of rod, a lot of play IMO. I may post this question on 49ccscoot see if anyone knows, has comments. Cheers
Great idea.
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On the pics, I have phone to take pics, that's how I take them, but don't know how to go from phone to this website. I can get them to my computer, but then have to post to a hosting service, then link them to this site. I tried to use flicker, but had problems with that, then tried shutterfly, but couldn't get that to work. Finally used photobucket, worked OK, but site seems a little flaky. Not easy for me to post pics.
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I will most likely wait till i have a beater to run as backup so if something goes wrong or takes longer than it should I don't have to rush or possibly mess something up. and I haven't looked that close at my BBK yet but will take a look this week now that I"m jobless with plenty of time. Also Chaz all my pics come from my phone and I use a photo reducing app to post them here.
Not a bad plan, waiting for backup ride. The cylinder should be pretty well taken care of, malossi did well there. Just use a small file to smooth the port edges. Don't change the shape or size, just make sure they're not sharp. And there's some other things you can d do to ensure a solid break in and not me anything up.
I also use my phone and a size reducer. Easiest way I've found.
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This is app I use on phone when I post a pic here I click on this app first then choose image from gallery then can choose different sizes to get it under 192K. As for BBK yeah I was thinking of using a file instead of Dremel and just clean up sharpness on cylinder and piston skirt heard that helps oiling.
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Thanks for info on screenshot, I will try it. Cheers
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I looked at small end rod bearing play again. Stupid me, I was moving piston outside the cylinder side to side. Yes, the small rod bearing does move out from under the rod like that, but the piston can't move that much when sitting in the cylinder. Anyway, I am OK with it now. I compared the old destroyed piston to the new one too, and they look identical, except one has hole in the top of the piston lol's. Another imaginary problem solved.
Decided to get Malossi 19mm carb kit for this build. Will probably wait awhile, make sure runs, gets broken in OK. Then put new chrome Tecnigas Next-R pipe and 19mm carb on it. Cheers
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Nice we gonna be twins. . .
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Both crank bearings look good to me, very little axial play and no virtually no radial play. The small crank bearing, on the stator side, is a little tight, has some debris in it, so I took it out for inspection and to clean. Probably didn't have to take it out, but I wanted to see if I could get it out to replace if I wanted to.
I used heat gun to heat the case and drop out the bearing. I got a non-contact infrared thermometer to check the temp while I was heating it. The bearing dropped out at something over 200 degrees. I didn't want to use the oven or outside grill because there are some rubber fittings pressed into the case on both sides where the engine case is mounted to the frame I didn't want to have to replace, and the side with the transmission has several seals I didn't want to damage. Took awhile to heat up, but worked, I was proud.
To put the bearing back, I plan to cool the steel bearing in the freezer, and heat the alum case some with the heat gun, should just drop right in?
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Yeah, that's the method I read of many using with success. I've read that some try to put the bearings in the crank, then put the crank in the freezer, then heat the cases, then install frozen crank with bearings. Seems to be successful. Things I've also read is that when you have it together it should spin freely. If not you can gently tap it with a 2x4. Anything harder can knock the crank out of true. I've watched videos on truing up a crank and checking the run out. Seems like something I'd rather not have to mess with. I feel like it's time for me to split my other tgb case so that I can have more of an experienced point of view on the subject.
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Good comments on getting it back together. If it doesn't spin freely after in the case with the case together, something has to be wrong? All new to me, I did very little to my kart 2cycle engines except tune them: pipe, carb, gearing. Always took to engine builder for any major repairs. I am learning, but has been painful so far.
I am sure you know, but the rod can be replaced by pressing the crank apart, so you can replace the rod and big end needle bearing. Then you press it back together, keeping it straight as possible. Then you true it up by hitting it with a big hammer on the appropriate spot to move it just a smidgen, like you probably saw on youtube. Fortunately, you can get a complete crank already assembled for a relatively reasonable amount.
I am with you, don't want to mess with it, takes someone with the right tools, knowledge, and experience to do it right. I think a properly assembled crank that is true is pretty hard to get out of alignment, unless you twist it, one end against the other. For example, if you secured one side and applied torque to the other side, it will twist out of alignment for sure.
I really like these engines, I love to hear them run, is music to my ears. Cheers
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190mech on the 49ccscoot forums is the man to read up on with cranks. He's the one I've robbed this info from. Also with pipe building. I gave him the outer dimensions of my next r pipe and he was able to tell me what kind of power it will give me. Actually, he just told me it wasn't built to be a great performing pipe. Not a tapered header, angles of the cone wrong, the baffles in it being restrictive, there's welds that prohibit the wave from returning to the cylinder etc.
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Good info, I will checkout 190mech posts.
I dropped out other crank bearing just for grins and dropped out easy. Bearings are maybe better than I thought, made by TPI in Taiwan. Was looking at replacement bearings and ran across cool youtube 3 of 3 set on how to change out crank bearings on Super 9, pretty good info. His main tool was a big plastic hammer, he didn't mind hitting the case and crank, made me glad I bought the case splitter, but you definitely don't have to have it.
Putting it back together, he installed the bearings into the case halves 1st. He used heat gun and freezer routine. I also figured out was lucky my crank bearings stayed in the case. If they stay on the crankshaft you have problem getting them off. You can buy a bearing puller, another $100 or so, or cut them off with a cut-off saw (ugly). He was replacing his and had to cut one off. 1st he taped up the crankshaft and rod to protect the rod big bearing from debris, very good idea.
I did some testing putting it all back together. I measured the best I could with my dial caliper and found bearing ID is approx .002" less than crank journal OD for both bearings, so definitely an interference fit. I don't think I want to take down .002" on crank journal, so will just polish them some, that and the inside of the bearing with 2000 grit sandpaper. Anyway, I heated up the bearings and put the crank in the freezer, then measured everything again. It was amazing, the crank got smaller by approx .002" and the bearing ID got larger by approx .002". I am thinking everything will go together easy, if I do some preparation.
I cleaned up the bearings with brake cleaner and compressed air and they feel better than new, they are broken in. With compressed air, they would spin freely, had cool gyroscope effect, made me wonder how many rev's they were turning? I am going to research the velocity of air coming out of an air gun at 60 psi and compute the estimated rev's lols.
I think ready to start putting it back together. Cheers
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Awesome! I'm glad to hear that the difference in hot vs cold is enough to make the install smoother. Gives me a little peace of mind when I comes to me having to finally do it.
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Would the velocity be affected by the size of the end of the tool? I assume it would be a different speed coming out of a 2mm hole than a 2 inch hole. I guess that would be factored into the equation.
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Yes, there are many factors you can allow for, more than you or I want to know. I initially found a physicsforum and they were arguing about the temp of the air as it change because the air pressure in the tank was dropping, the change in air pressure, whether the speed compressed the air or not, etc, etc, big long equations that allow for many variables. I didn't understand most of it. I went to another website and I got a rough estimate of air velocity coming out air nozzle at 70psi of approx 80mph, which seemed reasonable to me. Then I computed an estimate of how many revolutions the OD of the bearing would have to make in a minute, if it travel 80 miles in one hour. I came up with approx 15,000rpms. That is, holding the bearing in my hand, blowing air on it? Pretty crazy, I know, but seems plausible.
I know from experience with 2cycles, they are faster when the crankshaft gets a little loose side to side play, not up and down play. Any up and down play is bad, should replace bearings. If the bearing is tight on the crankshaft and bearing pocket in the case, the loose side to side play is axial play in the bearing. IMO, if the bearings are still good, they are better than new bearings because they have loosened up a little, a good thing if you are looking for more HP. Cheers
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I chamfered the ports with my dremel and carbide bit. This is the 3rd time I have done chamfering and I am feeling more comfortable doing it. I did it with the 1st BBK, then practiced on the oem cylinder 2nd time, and 3rd time on the 2nd new BBK. Before, I was setting the dremel for lots of revs thinking it would be smoother. I found it hard to control and less forgiving. If it jumped outside the port it was very easy to scratch up the cylinder.
This time I set the dremel for pretty slow revs and it worked a lot better. I could feel the sharp edge on the port with my finder before I chamfered it, and the relatively smoother edge after. I scratched up the bore a couple of times, but not too bad.
The big issue I have now is whether to run the flexhone through the cylinder or not. The mystery is why the piston failed 2nd time. I don't think it had anything to do with the flexhone, but don't know for sure. After I chamfered the ports and ran the flexhone through the cylinder after the 1st disaster the cylinder looked really nice. I am inclined to do it again, but makes me nervous.
Sure is a lot of work and expense if it blows again. I am thinking I should have replaced the piston instead of just the rings. That the piston was probably already mortally wounded, and was my fatal misstake to use it again. Anyway, if I decide to use the flexhone I know have to really clean the cylinder and ports or will be failure, but I am confident I can clean it properly. Cheers
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Looking at my BBK it looks crosshatched like the honed it so while I will chamfer it I'm not gonna hone it.
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Yes, I think nicely honed from Malossi, not necessary, you are smarter than me. I originally got the flexhone so I wouldn't have to chamfer the ports, flexhone would do that. Now I figured out how to use the dremel and carbide bit to chamfer, so guess I really don't need to flexhone it now? Cheers
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No I'm not smarter than you. And Definitely don't have the experience you have on these but I know when to leave well enough alone lol.
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Got crank bearings installed on crank. Put crank in freezer for hours, and heated up the bearings with heat gun to approx 200 plus degrees. Easy, dropped onto crank no problems, except of course there was a problem. 1st one went on so easy, then it moved a little, and locked down out of position while I was putting on the the other side. I ended up beating on it with a plastic hammer, bummer, but I think all is well.
I anticipated problems and already had a piece of 2x4 with 1" hole drilled so I could support the bearing against it, if I needed to beat on the otherside of the crank. Next time, I may install one side at a time: freeze the crank, heat up one bearing and install it, then freeze the crank again and install the 2nd bearing. However, you just have to be careful and know the bearing can move until it cools a little and locks down.
I decided to install the bearings on the crank 1st instead of installing the bearings in the engine case 1st because I figured it's easier. It's easier to install a steel bearing into a alum case, than to install a steel bearing onto a steel crankshaft, but could go either way? I know the steel bearings will drop out of the alum case with some heat, but are very difficult to get off the steel crankshaft (need an expensive bearing puller or grind off with cut-off saw).
After I was done, I started worrying about the crank being true. I put the crank in a vise holding it by the bearing and could spin it. I don't have a dial indicator, so didn't measure roll-out, but looked true. I think when the crank has run-out, it's usually easy to see some wobble, and if you can see it, probably too much.
Also, I still think the bearings are good, but in the vise I could really tell the right side bearing/ smaller bearing on the stator side had a lot more play than the other bearing. In the youtube I watched on how to change crank bearings, as I recall, the same bearing went bad on his engine. I wonder if that side usually goes 1st? He had a lot of up and down play on the end of the crank and was able to show it on the vid, that bearing was trash. It was an Airsal BBK engine and still running. However, the bearing was disintegrating and had maybe previously damaged the cylinder, but he was just now figuring that out. Anyway, I am ordering some spare crank bearings.
Next, I plan to put the case halves together, should be an adventure. Cheers
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Have new crankshaft installed in crankcase, went together easy, no problems. I didn't bother to freeze the crankshaft this time and just used the heat gun to heat up the alum cases. Cases are slow to heat up and probably something around 150 degrees is sufficient. I installed the crankshaft in the right side 1st on the floor. I had the longer left side in a vise on the workbench so it was secure and easy to work with. I used Permatex that's like Hylomar Universal Blue to seal the cases together, there is no gasket. I read up on Hylomar, is very good for sealing a case.
A few items to watch out for: per the service manual the right crank seal in approx 1/2" down into the bore; there are 6 bolts that hold the case together, torque them 6 to 8 ft pounds; 3 bolts are longer, with 2 long ones going with the dowel pins, and the 3rd long one is on top where the cylinder bolts down.
I had to pop the ends of the crankshaft both sides with a hammer to get it to loosen up after I tightened up bolts, but that loosened it up nice. Crank is nice and tight, no play side to side or up and down, spins easy, no worries about the bearings.
I have new theory about why the piston failed, think it was most likely too much rod side to side play. I know my original rod was way over spec and should have been replaced. If the rod has enough side to side play, it may be able to bind the wrist pin bearing enough to freeze the small end of the rod to the wrist pin. When that happens, the small end of the rod becomes a lever that forces the side of the piston against the bore as it is going up and down.
I think that is what happened and why the piston failed. The largest port is the exhaust port, so most likely place to fail, and that is where it failed. I installed a new crankshaft assembly, so should be OK now. I don't think it had anything to do with using flexhone to smooth the ports. I will probably use the flexhone again before it install the cylinder.
Would finish it up tomorrow, but weather is turning cold and wet, should have it running early next week.
One other item: my Ford mechanic friend got onto me for free spinning the crank bearings, not a good idea, and hard to imagine but could be dangerous. OK to use air to blow out bearings, just don't free spin them to the moon. Cheers
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Yes, I think nicely honed from Malossi, not necessary, you are smarter than me. I originally got the flexhone so I wouldn't have to chamfer the ports, flexhone would do that. Now I figured out how to use the dremel and carbide bit to chamfer, so guess I really don't need to flexhone it now? Cheers
Brand new kit, smoothed the port edges, shouldn't have to hone it. That extra hone might make it less taxing on the rings while it breaks in and the get properly seated, but if it ain't broke....
Congrats on the successful install, glad it went rather smooth. And that's a good possibility for your failures, the reasons it seized at the ex port.
What's the big deal with spinning the bearing? Not good to dry run?
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Spinning the bearing, I personally don't think it's dangerous, but the mechanic says can turn huge revs, possible for it to explode. He said not good for bearings to spin free, but I don't buy that, there is no heat or pressure, and lightly lubed with diesel oil I think mainly issue for wheel bearings where the outside race is part of the hub, those will explode if freewheeled too fast.
I'm a little stupid about the flexhone. I initially got it to chamfer the ports instead of using carbide bit. I never chamfered ports before and wasn't comfortable doing it. I was looking for an easy way to do it and found some guys use flexhone for that purpose, plus I was used to using it on 4T, works great. I found out hard way flexhone and 2T requires better cleanup, that's the main issue IMO.
As you know, flexhone caused me huge trouble, so I ended up chamfering with the carbide bit anyway. Now, I am pretty comfortable with the carbide bit, so you are right, don't use it. I can hardly keep from using it because I have it. I guess will give up flexhone this time, but should be great to clean up cylinder if have light stick, or for new rings.
Cheers
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It is very hard not to use something when you bought it for a specific thing. I have been there before and had to step back a second lol if you get this up and running good and have to changes rings later might not hurt to flex hone then. I need to get to work on my ports I have small files but would like to use a dremel. Need to get some cash flowing in so I can start installing my BBK the lil money I", sitting on is mainly going to the Club me and Tries got started out here in NC.
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Got it running, road around neighbor for approx 1 hour tonight, so far all is well. I road approx 20 miles in 1 hour, so 500 mile break-in will take 25 hours? One hour down, 24 hours to go lol's.
To back up, if you split the case, will need to remove the center stand. The return spring is a pain to remove and re-install. I mounted the engine in my workbench vise with wood between the vise jaws and casting to protect it. Then I used a 1.5"x2" timber (boards they use for shipping, get them free at HomeDepot/ Lowes) as lever.
I drilled a 1/2" hole through the timber so I could place a loop of wire (maybe 1/8" heavy duty fence wire) through it. I placed one end of the spring on the spring rod coming out of the casting, and placed the wire loop over the hook on the other end of the spring. I put the free end of the wire through the hole in my lever board, and anchored it on the other side of the board with large vise grips.
Then, I used the board as a lever with the short end under the workbench and stretched the spring down and over the retaining arm on the center stand, worked great. I worn eye protection, there is a lot of energy in the spring, if comes off and hits you in face, will be trouble. I took a pic, will try to post it soon.
More to come, will work on posting some pics now. Cheers
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pics of installing center stand spring:
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0391_zpsp8f1rq6y.jpg)
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0394_zps564zke0v.jpg)
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YOU DA MAN CHAZ!!
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Rode another 1 hour or so, just 23 hours to complete break-in? Running nice, I really like the Malossi BBK. Starts easy, sounds awesome (even with stock muffler). I can tell going to be loud with the cool chrome Tecnigas Next-R pipe I have to install.
Just cruising around neighborhood, 30mph top speed. Has stock muffler, pod air filter, carb jetted 108 main, 45 slow jets, CVT 100% oem, except for Malossi torsion controller (yellow plastic bit). Have oil pump hooked up, set to pump a little more oil, and adding approx 1 oz extra oil per fill-up of approx 1 gallon gas.
Backup to install: Took the good advice and didn't flexhone the cylinder. Cleaned with diesel oil and compressed air, then wiped down with clean cloth. Put some 2 cycle oil in squirt bottle and gave the cranks bearings, and big rod bearing a shot of oil. Put some grease on the end of the oil pump gear. Installed the piston, the side with the hole goes up, let's in air/ fuel mixture from intake manifold, or the arrow on top of piston goes down toward exhaust.
Still hard to get piston circlips in, there is a trick to doing this, but I haven't figured it out yet. Sometimes they go in easy, sometimes difficult, easy to take out. I have very nice needle nose pliers to do the job, couldn't do it without really good needle nose pliers.
Read somewhere nice to install cylinder studs, with the BBK the cylinder bolts are a little too long and will sometimes have trouble blowing head gaskets. I measured, and sure enough the Malossi BBK cylinder/ head is just a touch shorter than the oem Kymco cylinder/ head. I thought about studs, decided might be in the way removing/ installing the piston, so I bought some nice 7mm washers to space out the bolts just a little. I think they needed it, I used one washer per bolt.
Another issue is the sparkplug connector, it doesn't fully engage the sparkplug now. I read somewhere the BBK kit head changes the location of the sparkplug and so the blower housing sparkplug hole isn't centered, that's what causes the trouble. I couldn't tell it wasn't centered, but already experienced this issue. I removed the rubber boot fitting around the connector the 1st and 2nd times, and planned to do something about it later. Upon close inspection, realized the BBK sparkplug is farther away from the blower housing and doesn't fully engage the plug. But, THE RUBBER BOOT FITTING HAS ANOTHER SETTING THAT PUTS THE CONNECTOR CLOSER TO THE PLUG. Not easy to move the connector farther into the boot, but once I got it relocated, worked like a charm. I had to put the hard plastic connector in the vise to hold it, being careful not to crack it, while I manipulated the rubber boot. So, before you start grinding on the blower housing, try moving the sparkplug connector a little farther into the rubber boot.
If you want to use the oil pump, be sure and bleed it. Easy to do, just put some oil in the tank with the oil line from the tank to the pump disconnected. Pretty soon oil will come out the oil line, so quickly connect it to the pump and you are good there. Then zip tie the oil pump full open and start the engine. Should be OK for awhile, just put a load of oil into the engine lubing the bearings, piston, cylinder. Plus, added some oil premix to the gas. Let it run awhile, then pull the oil line from the oil pump to the intake manifold and check for oil flow. If working properly, there will be a little pulse of oil coming out the oil line, so you know it's working. Put the oil line back, remove the zip tie holding the oil pump full open, and you are good.
Cheers
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Nice Info CHaz but now you're giving me misgivings.....I've never hard of anyone having to add washers to bolts also did you measure squish and if so what was it? I can't wait till you put that exhaust on man its the one upgrade that has made the most difference for me pre BBK. I think I will follow Luigi Like install to the T suince we are close to same build also he was able to install the Malossi upgear kit with no prob so I think after trying your Torgue drive install I will got hat route once BBK is broken in. BUT YOU GOT NO PICS MAN I need pics I learn by doing or seeing not reading. But for real man you're awesome and gotta start posting this in the other forum.
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more pics coming soon lols, did you get anything from the pics about the center stand spring?, what primary gear kit did Luigi use?, I have Malossi 6711055 for my People 50 2T and doesn't work, that's the same one listed for Like 50 2T, no time, got to go... Cheers
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Yeah I got what you did there but I don't think I got to worry bout that just doing BBK not cracking open case. I am not sure what upgear kit he used just know it was Malossi since he showed up recently I shot him a message asking for info on that a couple other things just waiting for a reply.
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The head bolts may be too long because the Malossi head/ cylinder may be slightly shorter than the Kymco oem head/ cylinder. The Kymco oem bolts are just right for the oem head/ cylinder, but may bottom out with the Malossi BBK. If the bolts are too long the head/ cylinder will not be be pulled down tight after the bolts are torqued. You may have problems later like blown head gasket. So what to do?: you can get stud kit or do what I did, use a washer under the bolt head to space it out a little, in effect make the bolt shorter. I like to say "simple is better", a washer is simpler than a stud kit IOM.
I will post some more (including pics) after a week or so, busy on another project for awhile. Cheers
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I didn't measure squish. Don't know number shooting for and not sure how to adjust it? The Malossi head would be hard to adjust IMO, doesn't have a conventional flat head gasket, has a groove and o-ring gasket. You can add some more cylinder base gaskets to increase squish, but that changes the port timing, and compression ratio. You can machine off the bottom and/ or top of the cylinder to compress squish. I have done that manually with alum block engines, but the Malossi cylinder being steel would take a lot of elbow grease to shave a few .000's off the top or bottom. Long story short, squish is not something I want to mess with, just me, but too complicated for what I am trying to do.
Rode People some more today, have 60 break-in miles on it now. Really runs nice so far, no issues, no funny sounds, I am happy.
I think the up gear is a key component, but unfortunately I don't think one works for the People. I have tried the Malossi 6711055, the one that is supposed to work for People 50 2T and Like 50, and it doesn't work for my People. If someone knows different, make a post with the details. I am keeping it for awhile, I saw a post that it may fit Super 9 AC/ LC?, but haven't cracked the transmission on Super 9 yet, so don't know. Cheers
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I think if it dosrnt work for people then you may have same as Super 9 I have heard if you're Super 9 AC you can put super 9 LX for more maybe try thst?
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I'm in need of inspecting my transmission soon, I'll post pics up, probably to the other forum since it's easier to upload to there. Got some interesting vibration I'm trying to track down.
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good....good...good.......good vibrations......oh wait maybe not.....
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Hey Chaz you still alive bro? give us an update. . . .
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pace, thanks for reply. I was out of town for awhile, but back now. Still running great, pushing it a little harder, running it to approx 40 to 45mph with very little throttle. Have approx 150 miles on it now.
I have TrailTech tach and cylinder head temp gauges I got from Treatland, need to install. After I get gauges installed, I will probably install Tecnigas pipe, going to be loud! Still waiting to get carb like yours, have a few projects to get to before I get carb. Cheers
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well I cleaned ports on my BBK lastnight nicked the way in a couple spots but tries said should be fine if not to deep bathed it 4 times in oil so hopefully is good to go my tach will be in tomorrow and my CHT gauge will be in monday or so. I also went ahead per your post and got a few washers what size did you use? and did you get new exhaust studs or reuse old?
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Don't worry about nicks, probably can sand a little, same thing drove me nuts too. I don't sand mine, just cleaned it up really well and put it together.
The bolts are 7mm on my AC engine, yours are probably the same. I just got a package of 7mm washers at the local Home Depot. I think had 8 washers, I used 4. 1st kit I reused the exhaust stubs, but a hassle to take-out and install. 2nd kit I used new studs, I recommend using new studs.
Rode my People long time today. Only funky thing, it makes a little rattle sound at around 60km when engine not under load. I think maybe ring slapping in ring land, because the rings are not under enough compression or decompression. I think probably nothing to worry about, I just try to keep it out of that zone where it makes the noise. The rest of the time, engine sounds and runs very healthy, I love it.
I am thinking about adjusting the CVT already. This thing makes so much more torque than before, gearing seems too low. I am thinking I could ride faster at same rev's or less if CVT shifted to higher gear ratio sooner. CVT is 100% OEM now, thinking of installing some 9g rollers to see if that helps any. 9g rollers are heaviest I have, so will probably install Tecnigas pipe before ordering heavier rollers or sliders. With the Tecnighas pipe, torque should drop off, CVT may behave better for break-in, I don't know.
500 miles is a long way, if you have to go slow. I have gone a little over 200 miles now. I checked the Kymco owner's manual for 49cc 2T scooters and they recommend 1000km's at not over 40kmh. 40kmh is approx 25mph lol, that would take forever. Cheers
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lol Tries and me talk alot since we are CO-founders of Making Slow Look Fast Carolina Scooter CLub (look us up on Facebook) sory for shameless plug and he says worry more about rpms not speed and also after 200-300 you're golden. Also do heat cycles. I myself with my Like 50 when I first got it had to drive it like I stole it to survive. I had it WOT from day one 10 miles till home then tried to break it in a lil then derestricted it and right back to WOT almost all the time till started mods lol.
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Yes, good information. I think heat cycles critical.
I am used to breaking in engines by running them hard out of the box, generally rings will not seat properly without load on the engine. I think very few do recommended break-in, yet the used ones I bought all looked/ ran good, so I guess not really that critical.
BBK is different beast. Stock engines don't make much HP, can take some abuse. Modified engines are more fragile. Malossi specs on our kit #319987, has 72cc's and compression ratio 12.5 to 1, that's a lot of compression. OEM engine is approx 10 to 1. I wonder how it's calculated?, like 4 cycle I guess, if so 72/ 12.5 = 5.8cc combustion chamber volume.
Next time I have it all apart I might measure a few more items: squish, combustion chamber volume, check how the sparkplug looks in the hole, compare port heights to OEM engine. Malossi recommended sparkplug Denso W24 FS-ZU is obsolete plug. I think OK to use same plug NGK BR8HSA, BR8HS and BR9HS if running too hot (BR9HSA not available, best I can tell).
Should be able to ride mine some next couple of days. Cheers
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cool nice info yeah I will take it easy for a bit on mine problem is I live in a hilly area and Tries said not to do hills lol. hey where i you get your exhaust studs and what size are they I may get some or switch to bolts.
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I used Kymco OEM studs, if I had an extra set would send to you. Maybe you can get at local dealer? Yes, breaking-in these scooters is a hassle. Cheers
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yeah I can add them to my order from Kymcopartsmonster they keep messing up my order for front fender and side skirts from guy backing into me I'll just add them to the order
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Installed Trail Tech tach and cylinder head temp (CHT) gauges. Took all day, had to take most of the body work off a couple of times moving the wires around. Saw where throttle cable splitter was located, so that will be good info later when I install Malossi carb kit.
For CHT used 24" cable extension, was long enough, but just barely. I would recommend the next size longer, 48"? For CHT remove the sparkplug washer, put the sparkplug all the way through the 14mm fitting and look for area on the head for the fitting to have room the set flat. Was a hassle to get it in 1st time or 2, because the sparkplug will jam on the fitting and resist screwing into the sparkplug hole.
Took out for a neighborhood spin and was surprised how hot engines gets, got over 300f degrees just doing some easy riding around. 1st time looked at my plug, NGK BR8SHA, looked perfect, dark tan/ light brown color. Maybe get to ride it some tomorrow. Cheers
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I got got the TT CHT in today ordered the 48" extension due in monday got my tach in Wed if you're running that hot at NOT wot may be your oil pump isn't keeping up with needs of BBK did you add some to gas? and did you upjet?
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I add 1oz premix per gallon at the gas pump. Plug looks perfect. I am not too concerned about temp, was running fine without temp gauge, temp gauge just shows what it's doing.
I never had reed valve 2 cycle engine that wasn't liquid cooled. Had/ have several 100cc piston port 2 cycle engines that make a lot less HP per cc than one like our BBK Kimco's. I will research, but I recall seeing some CHT readings posted that seemed high to me at the time, in the 400f range, I guess that's normal?
What tach did you get?, looks good, not what I have, mine looks just like temp gauge. Cheers
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its a generic tach that sells under multiple names mins old under OZ-USA on amazon 24.99 it's backlit and has a replaceable battery. It's supposed to be waterproof but hear it's better to silicone is to be sure. And I've heard anywhere under 375F at long WOT runs is ok but over that is dangerous.
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Rode today some, like new TrailTech tach and CHT. Only thing, I mounted it with sticky pad, then read the instructions about setup mode, button is on bottom of gauge, so can't change setup without messing up sticky pads lols. Appears to be working OK, probably didn't need to change setup, so no problems. Will probably eventually mount mine with screws through the plastic bodywork, but hesitated to do that for 1st mounting (holes in plastic bodywork).
I was focused on the CHT watching temps change. It really gets hot if I am super easy with it, I guess carb is very lean at minimal throttle, high temp was 405f. However, give it a little more gas and temp comes down runs between 300 to 380f maybe. At idle, temp drops to approx 300 or less. I think all is well, but glad I have CHT. I didn't realize how lean it was running by being too easy on it.
Tach I didn't focus on that much, but probably max revs was something over 8000 for just a moment. Mostly was at 6000 to 7000 revs. Reading the instructions, I understand when shut-off tach will show max revs for just a second or 2 and then resets?
I can really see why recommended long break-in, this puppy likes to run really hot. I think mine is doing well, feels great, will just keep on keeping on, have approx 250 miles now, just 250 to go. Not too bad now, since I can run up to approx 40mph, then coast some, then gas it again, runs nice and cool that way. What makes it hot is steady speed with very little throttle, don't do that for sure.
pace, hope you can get another scooter before you do your BBK, break-in will drive you nuts. Cheers
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Just thought I would mention, scooter now starts easy. This is 1st time for all my scooters the auto petcock and electric choke appear to be working properly. I guess the BBK pulls more vacuum so auto petcock opens sooner, not sure why eclectric choke is working? When the engine 1st starts on 1 or 2 easy kicks, it goes to a fast idle approx 4000 revs plus and stays there just awhile, then drops down to approx 1800 revs until I ride it. Then after engine is hot, it idles approx 2000 revs, perfect. Cheers
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Took another fairly long ride today, burned approx 1/2 gallon of gas, approx 25 to 30 miles.
Ran really nice, high temp on CHT was 369f, but mainly varied from 300 to 350f. I am going 60 to 70kmh then slowing down to approx 50, then accelerating back up to 60 to 70kmh. Max revs was approx 8500 as I recall? I am past halfway, 2nd half will go faster, because I am going a lot faster.
I haven't run WOT much, if any. Engine runs great, no funny sounds, sounds awesome even with OEM muffler, I think will be very fast. Actually already fast, I just don't do sustained runs, or top speed runs, yet. Cheers
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glad it's all coming together for you bro
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Did some reading on max CHT temps for AC 2T engines. Not a lot out there, can get them pretty hot if run rich with lots of oil. No doubt better for engine longevity to keep max temp at some reasonable level.
Some of the motorized bicycle guys run <70cc 2T engines, and some run them pretty hard. Some of them run CHT well over 400f. When gets too hot, engine will fail, most often piston sticks, or very least engine wears out quickly. Another limiting factor, alum weakens (permanently) if you get it too hot, I think something over 400f.
Best I can tell, you want to stay under 400f degrees, probably around 380f max, would be great if ran well at 320f. I don't know what temps mine will want to run when I finally get it broken in and do extended runs at WOT. CHT is going to be a very good tuning tool. I think if running hot, that's an indicator it's too lean, simple as that. So, time to go to larger main jet or just back-off and let it cool down.
Also, I have feeling ambient temp will have a lot to do with how hot engine wants to run: cool day engine runs cool, hot day engine wants to run hot. Really glad I got CHT, should be big help keeping engine healthy. Cheers
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Nice going! I do believe about 380 is where you want to be. If you are still on the stock carb, the needle it's not adjustable, but there's ways to slightly raise it to richer it. Again on that thread from word slinger. Lol.
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The needle on the stock carb, I bought some shims and tried to install. Took awhile but figured out how to remove plastic retainer, you twist it. Not much room for adjustment, so I put it all back together without the shim. I did see that word made that adjustment too.
I ordered Malossi 19mm carb kit like pace's. I think may help to keep temp down compared with OEM carb. I have largest main jet sold for this carb installed already. Seems to be about right, but when hot weather gets here, maybe will need more fuel to keep it cool?
Plus I want to try this carb on 49cc LC engine too. Since I think I can rebuild one, I am not afraid of turning 10500+revs to see how fast that is? After seeing how hot AC BBK wants to run, I am beginning to see beauty of LC engine. Cheers
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Rode today some, like new TrailTech tach and CHT. Only thing, I mounted it with sticky pad, then read the instructions about setup mode, button is on bottom of gauge, so can't change setup without messing up sticky pads lols. Appears to be working OK, probably didn't need to change setup, so no problems. Will probably eventually mount mine with screws through the plastic bodywork, but hesitated to do that for 1st mounting (holes in plastic bodywork).
I was focused on the CHT watching temps change. It really gets hot if I am super easy with it, I guess carb is very lean at minimal throttle, high temp was 405f. However, give it a little more gas and temp comes down runs between 300 to 380f maybe. At idle, temp drops to approx 300 or less. I think all is well, but glad I have CHT. I didn't realize how lean it was running by being too easy on it.
Tach I didn't focus on that much, but probably max revs was something over 8000 for just a moment. Mostly was at 6000 to 7000 revs. Reading the instructions, I understand when shut-off tach will show max revs for just a second or 2 and then resets?
I can really see why recommended long break-in, this puppy likes to run really hot. I think mine is doing well, feels great, will just keep on keeping on, have approx 250 miles now, just 250 to go. Not too bad now, since I can run up to approx 40mph, then coast some, then gas it again, runs nice and cool that way. What makes it hot is steady speed with very little throttle, don't do that for sure.
pace, hope you can get another scooter before you do your BBK, break-in will drive you nuts. Cheers
If it's running that hot under part throttle, you may have to go with a larger idle jet.
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I'm about ready to upgrade my People 50 2t for more power. Especially need a little more for the hill I ride home on each day. It's about a half a mile long and maybe 9% grade. I already put lighter weights in my variator and that helped quite a bit.
So I've decided to either put on a good pipe or a BBK or both. The pipe and the BBK cost about the same, but the BBK is more work to install, but I'm a fair mechanic so that's not a big deal to me.
Chaz - for hills which gave you better performance? I'm asking because I know you've been running the BBK without the performance pipe and you also had the scooter with the 50cc and performance pipe. Top speed is not much of a concern for me. Sure, I'd like another 5 miles and hour, but I'm guessing either one will give me that.
Most people recommend the pipe first, but if I could only afford one, which would you recommend. I can always budget for the other later in the year.
Thanks,
Michael
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spring or BBK gives you best performance on hills pipe or BBK gives you best performance over all just remember with BBK you got to break engine in all over again with pipe and everything else its bolt on and balls to the walls. Chaz I have installed my BBK and holy %$#@ my tune was goond with everything before hand but I'm not even at half throttle ans this bish hits pipe at 8500 and trys to hit 50 so I got to let off lol. I am posting thread in tech section and like section with pics.
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I saw your thread in tech section, it's pretty cool! I'm thinking about getting the BBK too, is this the set you ordered?
http://www.amazon.com/Malossi-31-9987-M319987-2-Stroke/dp/B0057X6DOC (http://www.amazon.com/Malossi-31-9987-M319987-2-Stroke/dp/B0057X6DOC)
I would definitely like to go for 70ccm and as far as I know it should be possible, but it means I need to set the rollers/spring and carb differently. I already have pipe and some CVT upgrades and I'm getting 45 mph without problems but I'm going to start using my scoot for daily rides to work soon (it's 10 miles one way) and some extra hp would be appreciated :)
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yes that is the one but you can get it for $60 cheaper at scooterpartsco.com they are super cheap on Malossi stuff and you can also get other things there and they do 7.99 flat rate shipping so I would get carb and BBK or Carb first if I were you since you have an aftermarket pipe already.
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hello mclark999, to answer your question, I would say BBK is probably most bang for $'s.
I have 2005 People 50 2T and apparently the OEM pipe for that year and prior years are good ones. Later years pipes have some restrictions mine doesn't have. If you have a later year, the Tecnigas pipe will give you more relative performance, compared to what I realized.
To get max out of pipe (I run Tecnigas Next-R) IOM you need to: rejet carb, change rollers/ sliders at minimum. Plus, I have installed Malossi variator, Malossi torque spring, Malossi torque driver. Add it all up and for me it's more $'s than BBK. IOM BBK alone will climb hills better. Actually, I have set-up my People pretty much OEM components to see what the BBK by itself does for performance. IOM People 50 2T with BBK alone is probably faster and definitely would climb hills better than pipe and a bunch of mods to CVT.
For top end, the Malossi variator will add some top speed with or without the BBK. Not sure, but since BBK will turns more revs, BBK without the Malossi variator would be about same top speed as scooter without BBK, but with pipe and Malossi variator. However, since BBK has more HP and torque, should be a lot faster going up hills.
If I had to do it over, I would probably still add BBK last. It's been fun to add components as I go and realize an improvement. Plus, I am not that good of a mechanic and BBK was a big challenge for me. I almost didn't complete it, and cost a lot more than should have. Rejetting carb, working on CVT is a lot easier than BBK, at least was my experience. Cheers
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Thanks Chaz, That's very helpful. I do have a 2007 and it has the split exhaust that doesn't perform as well. I'm leaning towards doing the exhaust first also just because it's a simple bolt on. Either way, I'd have to jet the carb and adjust the variator.
I'm thinking of the Tecnigas Trek. Looks to be well built and have a pretty flat power curve at the top end which should make the variator fairly easy to tune.
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Have approx 380 miles on it now, running well. Temp seems to be under control better now, but still likes to build a lot of heat, if just cruise at constant rate like 40mph. High temp today was 380f, but cools down fast and controllable, easy to keep around 320f cruising through neighborhoods 30mph zones, problem is with faster traffic 40 to 45mph zones, have to constantly let off/ get back on throttle to keep temp reasonable.
High revs approx 9000 at a little over 70km on speedometer, so going close to 40mph +- a few. Can blast up a pretty good hill no problem, running good, engine has tons of torque, no need for CVT tuning IMO. Will probably install Malossi variator for a little more top speed when I install Tecnigas pipe, and carb later.
Really liking TrailTech CHT and tach. For some reason, CHT is easier to see, I have mounted on left side. I even rode at night and was able to monitor CHT easily, just have to watch it when go near street lights and can get a quick look. It cycles between max temp and current temp which is OK for me.
Tach seems to lag quite a bit, I maybe need to change the setting, think can make readout quicker? When turn off, tach gives max revs reading for a few seconds then deletes, so have to pay attention or will not see it. I am using tach for setting idle and observing max revs. Later, should be useful for CVT tuning, but for now CVT is 100% OEM and working well.
Cheers
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I changed out slow jet to next larger size, went from 45 to 48 and seemed to help keep it cooler. Carb is now jetted 108 main, 48 slow. Tomorrow, I will try 50 and/ or 52 slow jet that's the largest I have. 108 is largest main jet I have.
Riding closer to normal now, except for top speed runs. Cruising for longer periods now, at 40 to 50kms with CHT slowly rising to 350f or so. Temp drops rapidly if back-off a little, so very controllable. Highest temp last ride was 379f, as I recall. Did a few WOT runs up hills, runs great. Engine really likes to rev, will run up to 70kms, 9000revs with very little throttle. WOT will run up to 70km plus quickly, but at low 8000revs, CVT behaves differently with more throttle.
Have approx 430 miles, just 70 miles left for 500 mile break-in. I will still baby it after 500 miles, for sure. Cheers
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You're more patient than me I started blipping WOT for a few seconds after 200 miles and after 300 miles I'm done being nice to it. I have over 400 miles with the last 70 or so with two people on it. Mine runs on the cool side with just me on it I am still running rich obviously the highest I have gotten with two people on there is 368F. I'm usually under 350 with me at WOT. The uphill power is noticable I just can't get into pipe it's hard for me to get to 9600rpm I usually get to about 9200 on flats I will change the rollers back to sliders that are a gram lighter tomorrow that will hopefully put me right into pipe then I will play with the jets I'm running a 107 main on the 19mm carb with my airbox mod whistling when it's sucking air. Oh Chaz I bought thre 2T atomizer and buching since the Deloortos do come with the 4T stuff I had to jet all the way down to 90 main and still ran to rich had to put 4T parts back in so not sure whats up with that maybe it's the needle IDK but I am loving the BBK for sure.
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Good report! I'm gun-shy of mine, you know blew up 2x's already, but I think can take some abuse.
Mine likes OEM pipe, my CVT staying in lower gear too long, needs tuning. You probably just need lighter sliders/ rollers. A few adjustments to CVT really changes where engine likes to run has been my experience.
Where are you getting your Dellorto parts? I know about the 4T atomizer, maybe it's there because it works OK. Malossi says was set-up for BBK engines, right?, and was working for you? I read instructions for that carb and when mine comes in I will check if has the listed components.
I guess 19mm carb helps it get enough gas compared to OEM carb, plus I am running pod air filter, maybe getting more air?, so mine is running lean. Be glad when I get mine sorted out a little better, thinking the larger slow jet may fix mine. Mine seems to run cool WOT, but afraid to leave it there for long.
I understand you have oil pump connected, but cable removed, so must be adding oil to gas, how much oil you adding to gas? Cheers
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I'm adding 40/1 premix but pump is still adding idle speed amount of oil plus I think a bit more when at WOT due to more vacumn on pump. I have so far gotten all my Jets and atomizer and such at trealand.tv they have a specific area in parts section for Dellorto PHBG. running rich in idle didn't help mine I swiched back to original but am still owrking on getting main to not be rich at WOT
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Just follow the red lol
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OK treatland for Dellorto parts, that's cool.
I think my carb is messed up, took out yesterday with 52 slow jet and ran better, but not right, high temp 400f. I am pushing harder, only have less than 10 miles to complete 500 miles break-in. Engine will not run steady, I think sign of lean condition. Good thing I have CHT or probably sized engine by now.
I plan to take carb off and give a good cleaning, is if that helps. My 2005 S9 had carb issues with slow jet and took several cleanings to finally get it clean, must be some really small passages in there. Cheers
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go with biggest main jet you got it shouldn't be at more than 375 or 280 at WOT but some run hotter puttering around when not at WOT.
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I cleaned carb, don't think that was the problem.
Then I worked on the needle, would be great to raise the needle a little. The needle was bent a little, don't think that was the issue, but got it straight. wordslinger has a good thread how he raised the needle for the OEM carb, so I tried doing it and was able to get 1 shim installed, like he did.
I also thought about sanding the needle to make it thinner, but probably not a good idea, and decided would be better to try and raise the needle. Also, thought about drilling out the needle jet to in effect make the needle setting richer. I don't have a spare needle jet, so will put that off for awhile.
I already have largest main jet 108, and fairly large slow jet 52 installed. I put it all back together and went for long ride. Could tell raising the needle had some effect. Still wants to run too hot, and still not holding revs steady, but a lot better, was actually fun to ride. High temp was 380f, but was easy to keep around 350f, would really cool down fast, if got off the throttle.
I think this carb would be great, if had adjustable needle. I looked and looked, but couldn't find any different size needles for this carb. With pod airfilter, probably getting too much air for the jets/ needle to handle. Probably would run OK with OEM airbox, I don't know.
Installing Tecnigas Next-R pipe next, then tuning CVT. Max revs today was 9600, should turn more with pipe. I am hoping carb goes better with Tecnigas pipe, we will see. Cheers
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I was able to raise OEM carb needle 3 shims, made some difference, but still running hot, high temp was 388f, but ran a lot better. Next on carb, I will try drilling out main jet. I have a micro drill set and should be able to easily drill it out to the next larger size. But 1st I will install Tecnigas pipe and see how it goes. Actually, I was pretty frustrated with how it's running after messing with so much.
Extra shims on the carb needle was cool. All you have to do is shave down the top of the needle to a smaller OD and it will fit up inside the plastic retainer. Actually, appears was designed to allow for shims, but the top on the needle is too large OD. With a little more work, could probably add 4 or 5 shims, but probably not necessary.
OK, got pipe installed and think this may be the solution. Started raining, so haven't gone for ride yet, but was surprised how quite, probably less noise than OEM muffler, especially the carb. The carb was really loud, but appears giant sucking sound has gone away. I also looked up the exhaust port and could see the piston/ rings and cylinder were in really good shape. If runs well with pipe I will be very pleased. Cheers
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a few pics/ vid:
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0414_zpseunxf2hw.jpg) (http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0414_zpseunxf2hw.jpg.html)
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0415_zpsaeayg7he.jpg) (http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0415_zpsaeayg7he.jpg.html)
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0416_zpsluvwy9mq.jpg) (http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0416_zpsluvwy9mq.jpg.html)
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/th_IMG_0417_zpsvwxgzb7c.mp4) (http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0417_zpsvwxgzb7c.mp4)
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Nice let me know how you like that pipe bro I love mine only thing I might do is get the Tecnigas RSII chrome for it. That pipe alone being first thing I out on gave me my biggest performance increase of anything.
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Took for long ride with Tecnigas NextR pipe installed and was a lot better, but not there yet. If I didn't already have S9 LC that runs like a champ, I would be very pleased with this BBK, but I am already spoiled and know it can run better. Problems: still running too hot, high temp >400f , and has too much HP/ torque for gearing. With pipe, sounds better/ quieter, runs cooler, but power/ revs not significantly different, high revs approx 9600rpms. Apparently, OEM exhaust was really good, but pipe better, worth the extra $'s.
So what to change? could drill out main jet, drill out needle jet, raise needle some more, or install Malossi variator. I installed the Malossi variator with included 9g rollers, and went for fairly long ride, and it made huge difference. I think main benefit of Malossi variator is more top end, because the Malossi variator has larger variator OD. It doesn't look like much, but makes difference. The BBK has so much torque, don't really need the other benefit engine rev'ng a little more, but does have nice effect too. All in all, I really like the Malossi variator and recommend it for 49cc and BBK set-ups.
Engine ran a little cooler, but still gets too hot cruising. It's cool at idle, and WOT, but cruising with very little throttle, the temp really climbs, high temp >400f again. I think slow jet OK, main jet OK, but needle is too large, doesn't let enough gas flow, so runs lean, from approx 1/4 to 3/4 throttle. So, next adjustment is to raise the needle some more, I think I can add 2 more shims for a total of 5 (approx 1/10 inch or 2.5mm). If that doesn't do it, then I will probably drill out the needle jet.
I do have the Malossi 19mm carb kit now and will eventually install it, but haven't given up on the OEM carb yet. I originally wanted it to try on 49cc S9 LC engine, but now think may need higher powerband pipe to really benefit from it. Maybe I will get Tecnigas Trek or Triops after I install the 19mm carb?
People 50 with BBK is starting to be really fun to ride. It feels a lot faster at the red light drags than the S9 LC, and with the Malossi variator has similar top end. When I get temp problem solved, will be my best/ fastest scooter. Cheers
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I would do that carb swap bro bigger carb is supposed to help keep BBK cooler. I am running rich cuz with almost your setup and the 19mm carb I can't get over 350 I think once with my daughter on it riding around and going uphills and everything I got up to 360 but, with just me I usually don't top 340 or 350 from idle-WOT. usually around 310 so I gotta tune mine lol but rather run cool than hot.
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pace, yes you are right, but will be big project for me, messing with throttle cable...
I looked at Tecnigas pipes, I don't think they sell RSII anymore, just saw Trek, and Triops. I think Trek has higher powerband than NextR, the Triops higher still? I did see scooterpartsco has Tecnigas RS for good price, maybe that's the one you are looking at?
Check-out this comparison chart: http://www.pedparts.co.uk/c/asset/tecnigas/tecnigas-standard-50.png (http://www.pedparts.co.uk/c/asset/tecnigas/tecnigas-standard-50.png)
Cheers
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Did one more mod on OEM carb, was able to raise needle approx 1/8", which is a lot, approx 6 shims total. Weather raining next few days, will test next dry spell. Figured out I don't have large enough micro drills to enlarge main jet, these 2T main jets are huge compared to 4T engine carbs I used the micro drills for. Hoping needle adjustment will do it, if not will probably install 19mm carb next.
Compared 19mm to OEM carb, outside size not much difference, think I will really like it once installed. Difference in barrels is huge. Manual choke will be nice, but funny thing, OEM choke has been working perfect ever since I installed BBK. My pod air filter fits the carb, nice surprise. Needle has height adjustments, very good.
pace, have you adjusted needle height?
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haven't adjusted needle height yet but is something I may do I have the 2T atomizer and 2T bushing that I may install again but when I tried it ran way to rich with even a 90 main in so I have to wait as don't have smaller jets. With the 4T internals I am running a 107 main pretty good. Do you have Pod filter on stock carb? that may be part but I doubt all the reason you're running hot. But I bet changing to bigger carb will help alleviate it some.
Also here is the link for the RS Chrome scooterpartsco has it for all us Kymco 2Ts
https://scooterpartsco.com/kymco-people-parts/kymco-people-50-2t/tecnigas-rs-racing-exhaust-for-kymco-50cc-2-stroke?zenid=dicph7rggo682i27orpdtv4o61 (https://scooterpartsco.com/kymco-people-parts/kymco-people-50-2t/tecnigas-rs-racing-exhaust-for-kymco-50cc-2-stroke?zenid=dicph7rggo682i27orpdtv4o61)
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Generally, needle controls 1/4 to 3/4 throttle. Are you mainly riding WOT or less? 49cc engines I run WOT all the time, BBK doesn't need it, so needle is causing mine to run lean, I think. Can't remember for sure, but think needle clip was on highest groove on my new 19mm Malossi carb, which would be leanest setting. So, if yours came that way, it's already set to run lean, needle probably not causing yours to run rich.
Yes, I am running pod air filter on stock carb, and yes it's getting lots of airflow. I just ordered set of welding tip cleaners to enlarge main jet, if I need to try that. I thought I had micro drills to do that, but found out tonight mine are too small.
That pipe is sweet, I think makes more HP than NextR, but takes more revs to do it? Cheers
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Raising carb needle made difference, think all needs now is larger main jet. Still had high temp >400f, but very controllable, running a lot cooler, takes awhile for temp to build now and cools off fast when back off throttle some and let revs come down. I may order some larger main jets or enlarge what I have when torch tip cleaner set gets here.
Scooter really fun to ride, has huge acceleration, great top speed, high rpm was >9700. Top speed should get better if I install Malossi torque driver, which I probably will. Going to be really fun after I get it dialed in a little better, and ride with son-n-law's PCX150, I think may surprise him. Cheers
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My Engine Blew up on me circlip came out and tore top end up not pretty at all. 1000 miles on BBK have ordered new one and other stuff plan to install next weekend.
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That's a bummer
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pace, sorry to hear about bad luck, will be very fortunate if same thing doesn't happen to me. I checked circlip several times, but who knows? 2nd one should be a breeze to install, after practicing on 1st one.
If mine blows, probably would do it again, BBK's rock!
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Yeah I need the staying power the BBK provides for hills here on every damn road in Charlotte. I think internals are ok can't see any damage ain't cracking case just gonna go with it. If it don't work and I got to crack case will just build some nasty awesome fast thing lol. But yeah up until it blew with 1K no issues at all great power and still not tuned good lol I bought some more stuff than just BBK so hopefully will have oil pump operating again and a cutom cable eith 90 degree bendy on top of Dellorto Carb. I KNOW CHAZ WILL WSNT GO SEE THAT INSTALL LOL. Plus I got a different needle and a couple jets to try to get 2T atomizer and bushing to work in carb eith out running too rich
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Torch tip cleaner set came in, I bored out main jet some, and went for ride. Still not there, but slowly getting there. I am still getting >400f CHT, but I am pushing it harder and harder. My goal: cruise at approx 80k or 50mph without overheating. I am cruising 60 to 70k no problems, with huge acceleration and >50mph top speed, much above 80k/ 50mph just seems thrashing engine, doesn't sound good, probably way past carb size. This scooter is different ride than my Super 9 LC, which I ride WOT most of the time. This one can't ride WOT nearly as much, would have too much speed.
I got the WYPO Standard set Tip Cleaners for <$6 shipped. The #17 tip cleaner was the next size larger than the 108 main jet installed (the largest Keihin equivalent main jet available from jetsrus). I can buy 110, 115, and 120 Keihin OEM main jets, but thought I would try the tip cleaner 1st. The #17 tip cleaner is equivalent to .043-.045" or drill size 57.
Was still running hot, so I bored it out to the next size #18, ran better still, but still not there. So, next will try the next larger tip cleaner #22. Hopefully, #22 will do it, because the tip cleaners start getting really large, difference between #22 and next size #24 is a lot, looks like would be too much, but I don't know.
I think part of the problem is gearing is too low for the HP this BBK is making. It feels like I have power to go 70mph, but I just run out of revs, 9700rpm max so far, don't really like to turn that much. I can tell CVT varies rpm depending upon how much throttle I give it. If I go WOT engine will turn more revs at 80k than if I accelerate to 80k with less throttle. Still gets there fast either way.
I did some more reading on max temp and think 400f is OK. There's not much out there about it, same motorized bicycle info, and some ultra light plane info too. I am consistently hitting over 400f briefly, highest last ride was 414f, and no problems. It always happens when I am on a long run, with a car behind me, so I push it a little more than I would like. I think main negative, probably have more engine wear at higher temps, but makes more HP, runs better.
I have also started keeping track of oil consumption and gas mileage. I was surprised mileage was initially approx 66mpg, which indicated lean to me. As I have enlarged the main jet with the tip cleaner mileage has dropped, <60mpg now, probably approx 55mpg. Hard to know exactly, but have enlarged 108 main jet from approx .040" to >.050" and next tip cleaner size #22 is approx .055", that's a big difference.
Today air temp was cool, approx 50f, next few days will be warmer, will be interesting to see effect of warmer air. Jetting should be relatively richer, so should run a little cooler from that effect, but don't know if will be offset by less engine cooling effect from higher air temp?, we will see. Cheers
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Bored out main jet with tip cleaner from approx .044" to .048" and went for long ride. Engine was really staying cool, so I did my country road ride. Went >400f once, just backed off some and cooled down fast. Was cruising 80k/ 50mph at high 8000revs, low 9000revs, sounded great, ran great, max rev's >9700.
Ring flutter sound less noticeable, I guess caused by lean condition, I am glad it's going away.
Will bore out main jet one more time to approx .050". I am getting comfortable with the tip cleaners, but will probably buy some mini drill bits, probably size 56,55,and 54, to bore out jets faster, tip cleaner takes some time to enlarge the bore. When hot weather gets here, may need smaller jet, I don't know. Next time I order something from jetrus, will get the 120 main jet to compare, I suspect it's too small?
I am very pleased with it now, seems like all the trouble was worth it. This thing runs fast, is blast to ride. Cheers
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sounds like you're dialing it in nice man I got BBK instealled again and about 70 miles on her so far so good so seems like case and crank are ok . I'm glad you're getting that temp down I ordered parts for my carb when I got BBK and got beefier needle bearing so far so good. I got W7 needle for casrb and installed the 2T bushing and atomizer have lowed my jet to 40 idle and 92 main but still tuning as I don't take it over half throtttle yet. Idle seems good I will be upjetting on main try 96 or so the 2T stuff makes you go way down on jets on the Dellorto compared to 4T aomizer. The W7 needle is supposed to better for 2T and it's definitely alot fatter so less fuel going to engine. I also bought new parts to connect a splitter and started running oil pump again instead of premix. I know we both had issues now but looks like we're getting them dialed in too bad you ain't out this way we could ride together the Malossi/tecnigas crew lol.
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pace, thanks for update. Can you post link to beefier needle bearing?, wrist pin needle bearing? Yes, too bad not closer, we would have some good times riding scooters, for sure.
I hogged out the main jet again to approx .050", changed the slow jet to 45 from 48, and had my best run yet, max temp stayed under 400f, was 399f lols. I was running it pretty hard, only slowed down a few times to keep temp under control. Air temp seems to be more critical than jetting in keeping engine cool. As weather gets hotter, will probably need to run larger jets to control temp. I ordered some mini drill bits to drill out my jets, and they also might come in handy to measure what I have (sometimes the marking on the jets is very hard to read, for me anyway).
High revs is staying around 9600rpm. Runs really nice, just roll on the throttle, and pulls great. Idle is funky, varies depending on how hard engine was working before I stop. Sometimes, wants to do fast idle for awhile, maybe 3000revs plus, then will drop down to 2000 or so. If I turn down the idle, then will idle too slow, less than 2000, like 1700rpm.
Have another idea to cool off engine, decrease compression a little. Can add another cylinder base gasket to raise the cylinder, which will lower the compression ratio, and raise the ports a little, which may help it run higher revs. As the engine wears in, compression will drop off anyway. Probably won't do this adjustment unless I have to, because carb jetting appears to doing it now. Cheers
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still seems to me that you may be running lean still especially at idle I had that same issue when I went down to 40 idle jet but on Dellorto you can asdjust idle fuel and air and I was able to fix that I like to idle about 1850 to 1950rpm. The bearing I got is longer than stock it sticks out on both sides of crank and just fits inside piston with a very small amount of free space. to me seems like less chance of slapping back and forth and so on here is link.
https://scooterpartsco.com/malossi/malossi-master-part-list/malossi-wristpin-bearing-for-piaggio-12x17x16?zenid=tgj268mrdj4ugsvhlqee02llm2 (https://scooterpartsco.com/malossi/malossi-master-part-list/malossi-wristpin-bearing-for-piaggio-12x17x16?zenid=tgj268mrdj4ugsvhlqee02llm2)
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Thanks for link to wrist pin bearing. I was looking for one wider like that. Downside, a little more weight going up and down with piston, but don't have to worry about small end of rod running on less than full bearing surface. I will definitely get one, next order to scooterpartsco.
Yes, I am still running lean. It's amazing I haven't damaged the engine, I bet it has zero carbon buildup lols. If I had more $'s and time, might try running it hotter up to 450f to see if can take it, but not that brave, 400f is pretty scarry IMO. Without CHT probably would have stuck it long ago. Will bore out main jet again soon, plus try dropping needle some, and install next size smaller slow jet 42, I think running too rich at less than mid throttle now.
I ran it WOT for awhile couple of times last ride and seemed to hold steady 380 to 390F. Headwind and hills put more load on engine and it responds with heat. With tall wind, no heat problems. Cheers
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I checked my gas mileage and oil consumption. I kept records for 8 fill-ups, almost 9 gals gas. Mileage was approx 50mpg and oil approx 2.2oz per gal of gas or ratio of 59 to 1, a little surprising.
Fortunately, I add approx 1oz per gal each fillup at the gas pump, so I am running over 3oz per gal oil. After I thought about it, makes sense oil pump would be delivering less oil relative to gas. It's pumping the same quantity of oil, but engine is using more gas, mileage went from approx 60mpg to 50mpg. Also, since only getting 50mpg, I often have to drive slow to make the gas last to the next gas station, which causes the oil pump to pump less oil. If I wasn't driving slow from time to time, I guess mileage would be less, and maybe oil consumption a little more?
I reset the oil pump so it bottoms out at WOT, set it to pump the max quantity of oil. I will test again to see what difference it makes, if any.
I am waiting for mini drills to come in and I will bore out main jet to .052" from .050" and see how it goes. Cheers
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My guess is you're gonna run oil rich doing that and gunk up kit and exhaust. It happened on my OEM kit the dealer either didn't know how ot tune it or did thst for breakin and I was getting way to much oil. Have you put the Dellorto on yet?
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You may be right about getting too much oil. I will monitor, see how it goes, easy to adjust back. What oil do you run? I like to run good quality full synthetic, have found with experience quality of oil makes big difference.
Haven't installed Dellorto yet, still messing with my OEM Keihin. This thing runs like a scalded cat, as is. I am very happy with performance, if can just keep it cool. Horsepower makes heat, mine is making heat. I suspect won't really run any better with Dellorto, except probably make higher revs which would be good I guess. Also, Dellorto would probably get better mileage, better carb over the full range from idle to WOT. Cheers
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I run Castrol TT RS I think is the name of 2T full synthetic it's one of the cheaper good brands and as many miles as I put on my scoot can't afford the $15 or higher a quart stuff. I was in Houston and working for Royal Purple still like I did in my mid twenties when they were a small start up I'd be set I see they make an injectable 2T but I like Castrol never had an issue with them. I think it would help cool you down a tad if you put that Dellorto on I never had an overheating issue with BBK since Dellorto was installed before BBK and with 4T stuff struggled to get it around 375. Now with 2T atomizer and bushing and W7 needle instead of W216 that came with it I got it almost dialed in just running rich on top half of throttle but at half throttle can get good RPMS and 50ish top speed flat.
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I checked the Castro RS TT, looks like really good oil, may try some, but I usually like to buy by the gallon, get better price.
Rode People 50 today a couple of hours before dark, high temp 384f, was running like a champ, I think warmer weather will help it run richer. I am still waiting on mini drills. I really got Dellorto to try on Super 9, see how many revs it will turn for more top end. I am slow on projects, will install Dellorto eventually. If I like it, could get expensive, I have 4 49cc Kymco scooters lols.
Getting close to 10,000km on People 50. Cheers
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lol good deal I ran mine WOT on a state Hwy today for about 20 miles and only a few stops ran like a champ right at 50 or a lil above or below depending on hills. actrually temp starts to creep up at WOT for long periods of time got to a lil over 360 today so I'm gonna take yes for an answer and leave well enough alone 350-375 is supposed to be the sweet spot so I'm all good. I am actually having to blip throttle to WOT or drop it occasionally if trying to ride mid throttle as those tems have crept up to 380 occasionally. What other than the S9 you got I need another Kymco in my life.
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pace, I think you have it dialed in, sounds awesome to me. My scooters: 05 People 50 2T, two 03 Super 9 LC's, and one 05 Super 9 LC, they all run, have maybe one too many scooters, would be perfect at 3. Cheers
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I think I need a Super9 in my life since everyone seems to have one but me lol.
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Super 9's are cool, but sometimes I like my People 50 2T just as well, I go back and forth. You would probably be the same with your Like, if you got Super 9.
I finally decided to give-up on OEM carb and install Malossi 19mm. There appears to be some other restriction besides main jet, I keep drilling it out and running hot problem stays the same. I don't know enough about carbs to fix it, so I am throwing in the towel. If I still have problem with 19mm carb, then will know have another issue, but I doubt it. Will take awhile, 1st step start taking off plastic to remove throttle cable, 2nd step make new cable. Cheers
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with the 4T parts in a had to run like a 109 or higher jet to stay ok if you get the 2T atomizer and bushing it will drop your needed jet size ay down but got to change needle at same time or WOT will start to foul plug after a min or so and starts missing. lol it's an ever going thing man no one ever stops tweaking.
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The Malossi carb should be a lot easier to adjust, as you described it. To change jets on OEM Keihin I always removed the seat, then removed the carb, a pain. On the Super 9, I don't have to remove the seat, so easier.
I guess will try the Malossi as is, and go from there. I won't say it, but you know what I am thinking about another Malossi kit lols. Cheers
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yeah yeah lol I know but hey that Malossi BBK still going huh lol
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Working to install Malossi 19mm carb, I pulled plastic to get to throttle cable, disconnected cable from twist grip, located cable splitter and was able to partially disassemble the cable splitter. The cable going to the carb and cable going to the oil pump from the splitter will disconnect, but the single throttle cable from the twist grip will not disassemble from the cable splitter. Also, the carb top will not disassemble for the throttle cable.
I removed the OEM carb and installed the Malossi manifold and carb just to see how it looks. Then, I installed the shorter choke cable, to see how that works, and realized the longer throttle cable may work in place of the OEM throttle cable. So, then I installed the oil pump cable and Malossi throttle cable into the OEM splitter and hooked up the oil pump and installed the cable to the carb and all seems to fit OK, amazing! I ran out of time, but next I will hook up throttle cable to the twist grip and test operation, but initially looks like it will probably work well, appears to open carb all the way, oil pump works properly, we will see
The key to disassembly of the splitter is to disconnect the throttle cable from the twist grip, as pace described in his thread, ref Like 50 BBK thread. Then the end cap of the splitter where the 2 cables come out will slip off the end. Then the 2 cables will come out of the splitter, yea!
I probably removed more plastic than I needed to because I thought I would have to completely remove the throttle cable from the scooter and replace it with another custom one. Appears to be a big job to completely remove the throttle cable, it's bundled with other wires, brake lines, and is bundled tight so is pretty hard to remove IMO. Fortunately, I now realize may not have to remove the single cable that runs from the twist grip to the cable splitter.
I am pretty pumped, appears I am closer than I thought to getting this 19mm Malossi carb installed. Cheers
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yes way to go bro I'm so glad you took that plunge and yeah you can't remove main cable from the inner part of splitter and you used all the right cables in all the right places. the only suggestion I would have for you is to go to treatland.tv and order a 90 degree bend to fit into top of Dellorto carb to keep cable from rubbing and cutting into plastic top and finally breaking cable which happened to me after about 2 months of riding. Good luck bro glad you took the plunge let me know if you have any issues.
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Got it all put together and have a few issues. I didn't change anything on carb, just bolted it on, idles nice, but main jet appears too lean, bogs above 1/4 throttle. Also, I need to re-route the throttle cable, when I turn right the cable binds and gives it the gas a little.
Next, I will pull the carb and order some jets, bent tube, maybe order the bolt-on choke too from treatland. I don't know where to mount the remote cable choke, maybe a good place would be inside the storage box?, probably not. Right now, I have it tie-wrapped to the side of the scooter.
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yeah if you were as lean as you were on stock carb you're probably lean on the main jet treatland has PHBG jets but I just saw tonight scootertuning.ca has 10pc jet sets a lil less than treatland would be for 10 pcs they only have 5 pc sets and they also have needle kits which I will be investing as I'm rich at WOT but lean in mid to 3/4 throttle I need to just move to open filter for the warm season I think.
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I took the carb apart and have the following components: main jet 80, nozzle 262DL (262DL is not typo), needle W16, float 3G5, starter jet 55, idle jet 42. Based on some Malossi instructions for the carb, I think supposed to have main jet 98, nozzle 262AU, needle W16, float 5gr, starter jet ?, idle jet 45. Then I went to Treatland.tv to place an order.
Thanks to pace, I knew where to look and found everything I think I needed, cost approx $42 shipped. After reading and looking around some, I decided not to get the 262AU nozzle. I got main jets 96 98 100 102, pull choke, throttle cable with a bent tube, spare top gasket, and spare clip for the needle.
At the Treatland.tv site there were some comments about the AU nozzle not being needed unless had piston port engine. That 4 cycle nozzle worked well with reed valve engine, and what we have is definitely reed valve. Also, the problem, as I understand it is mainly with idle. Since I already had it installed and it idled great, I decided to wait on the AU nozzle. It bogged at anything over 1/4 throttle which is consistent with main jet being too small. We will see.
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I love networking lol I have 262 AU parts in W7 Needle and haven't changed slide got the Malossi Mattahorn Filter for PHBG carb from treatland last week had to go to open filter. have needle set one down from leanest setting, have 94 main and 42 idle, was running great till today when 26745334685978423 BAMMMMMMM my oil pimp cable straight fails at the end and engine was at 9600rpm!!! Straight dead engine costed into parking lot lots of smoke and smell of just nasty melting metal and plastic. I'm ticked had 1700 miles on BBK and completely discouraged. looked at plug almost perfect mixture then looked up and saw oil pump cabled just broke no wear no tearing jus t not connected anymore. waited a bit started up on first try let it idle sounded fine.....pushed to gas station bought cheap 2T oil poured it in tank....tipped bike from side to side for a few minutes to mix.....got home at almost midnight tonight have lost a few miles an hour hope its just from need to upjet since premixing and not loss of compression due to rings, piston, or cylinder damage. Think oil pump may be fried but it wasn't Malossi that went this was pure Kymco cable actually the last Kymco cable on my bike lol.
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That's another story adding to the pre mix argument. It's just so convenient to use the pump. Thinking about switching.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Wow pace, that's amazing that it still runs. You could probably pull the cylinder/ piston, clean it up a little, and probably be OK! Did you know scooterpartsco has rings for the Malossi kit for approx $15?
So, the cable didn't break or pull the ball off the end?, ball just popped out of the oil pump lever? You were running combo premix and oil pump, right?
How did you change out the bushing in the carb? That's the main reason I am staying with what the carb came with. I don't know how to change out the parts, I am afraid will tear it up before even get to use it lols.
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its running fine right now on premix lost a coupe mph but probably due to running less gas need to upjet. no the cable snapped at the ball or pulled put theres no fraying or wear just a complete fail and before I was running only oil pump no premix at all after break in. As for the AU Bushing I took bowl, and atomizer out took out slide and put a skinny flathead into atomizer hole and tapped the old one out. Maneuvered the c shaped AU bushing into place with needle nose pliers with opening facing intake not air filter. Found a small socket that just fit over C put it on a 1/4 extension and tapped it down till I was hitting sides of venturi then screwed AU atomizer up into bushing till it was seated and done.
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pace, thanks for how to on installing AU nozzle. I pushed on mine some, but didn't budge. If mine doesn't run right, will be the next thing to change on my carb.
In the chaos after you lost the oil pump, did you get CHT reading, or max reading?, would be very interesting info. Cheers
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I wasn't hot when it happened and afterwards don't think I've gone over 377 but I'm having to rejet and tune again for premix. And you got to do more than push on the bushing lol its tight.
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pace, thanks for info on CHT. I guess that sounds right, didn't get hot before seizing up. Won't run without oil, even if nice and cool lols.
I got carb parts in from treatland, everything looks good, especially the choke I really like.
I needed a little longer cable outside the housing for the bent tube, approx 2 1/4" longer. I was able to remove approx 2 1/4" of the housing without cutting off the end of the cable. I previously watched vid about moding throttle cables and had the idea from one of them. I put the housing in a vise with 2 1/4" of the cable housing protruding, then I pulled on the housing to stretch it. After I had it stretched enough, I was able to spin the cable out of the stretched housing and cut off the excess housing. Worked pretty well, next time will do a better job of it. Still haven't had to solder an end to a cable.
I installed 98 main jet, new choke, and everything else as supplied by Malossi (if came from Malossi, must be good right?). I am putting scooter back together to test. I rerouted the throttle cable at the top going to the twist grip so it won't bind like it was before, have to route cable up close to the steering shaft like it comes OEM.
One issue I have with the Dellorto carb is installing/ disassembling cable to/ from the barrel. Must be a trick to this, the little plastic piece that holds the needle in place is a pain. Maybe, with a little more cable to work with will be easier. Also, getting the end of the cable to go through the bent tube is fun, not.
If it doesn't run cooler now, will be very disappointed. Cheers
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sounds like youre on the right track and no theres no trick to that plastic pice on top of needle and slide it's just a pita. On a positive note ParaIndiana is alive and well if not active over here he's actually joined my CLubs Facebook group so Imma drain him on all the info I can when it comes to the Like 50 2T his is over 60 with the upgear kit.
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and hard to imagine but could be dangerous. OK to use air to blow out bearings, just don't free spin them to the moon. Cheers
When I was a teen, I had just changed a front wheel bearing on my '63 Chevy. I had the old bearing brushed out with solvent, I then stuck my finger through it and started blowing with compressed air. Like you, I found myself spinning as fast as I could and it sounding like a turbine. About that time my older brother stepped over and said, " I heard of a guy doing that, and the bearing locked down. The bearing had so much momentum, it twisted his finger off". I have no idea if it's true, but it's not hard to imagine. I've never done it again. Not on my finger anyway. Still got to play sometimes.
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good story blufx, I liked it!
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The saga continues, more trouble. I got it all back together and took for a test run. Was running great, but definitely still getting hot. Carb had 98 main jet. needle clip 2 grooves from the top. I was cruising approx 80km a little faster than my safe speed with the modified OEM Keihin PB16 and it was running nice, but building temp faster, actually faster than I realized. I stuck the engine, CHT max was 446F. I was pretty sad, main concern was pushing it back home, what a pain. I let it cool down to approx 300F and tried to start it, started 1st kick, so I drove it home.
At 1st I didn't know what to do, but eventually realized maybe just needed a larger main jet, so I installed the largest one I have a 102 and went for another test ride. Rode the same route to test again, still getting too hot, and fouled the plug, I guess from some metal from the stick. Anyway, appears no harm done, still has good compression, starts easy, runs great, except gets too hot.
I have metric mini drill set and the 102 main jet measured approx 1mm. The next size mini drill is 1.2mm, so I drilled out the 80 main jet the carb came with to 1.2mm, installed it, put in new plug, and went for another test run. Same, still will not cruise without overheating, but I could tell the main jet was actually too rich now. WOT temp holds steady, but can tell too rich to run really well, if back off throttle to maybe 1/2 throttle, it runs leaner/ better, but still overheats. So, next I will raise the needle jet, I am going to try the bottom groove to raise needle all the way.
I think getting pretty close, but this engine may always be prone to overheating. Unless I have something assembled wrong, like cylinder head, fan shroud? Maybe there is something missing from scooter that is keeping the air from flowing across the cylinder properly, I don't know? The only other thing I know to do is test the squish, but don't know what's it's supposed to be. I can add another cylinder base gasket to raise the cylinder relative to the piston and decrease squish/ compression a little, that should help detune it a little, let it run cooler? I need to pull the cylinder to look at the piston/ cylinder anyway.
This thing actually runs like a monster for short runs. I noticed I have cars following me around to see what I am going to do next. I even had nice looking babe roll down her window and wave at red light, I guess she couldn't tell I am old guy lols?
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Let me ask.
Is your oil pump cam all the way open or at max 1mm over full open at full throttle.
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Chris, thanks for reply. Oil pump connected like normal, set to open the maximum amount. I was careful to set so the stop just bottoms out at WOT and doesn't put undue tension on the cable.
Maybe needs more oil, but don't think more oil would help it run cooler, just protect it better when it does get too hot?
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OK, next test with needle raised, then probably order some larger main jets. With needle raised, maybe 102 is OK? Wish I knew equivalent Dellorto main jet for 1.2mm mini drill? Guess will order 104, 106, 108, 110? Then will have 96, 98, 100, 102, 104, 106, 108, 110, have to buy lots of jets to test, but only use one.
I do like 19mm carb, very nice to loosen clamp, turn carb so can remove bowl, and change out main jet. For another $30 or so, can get racing bowl with screw hole in the bottom, so don't have to mess with 4 screws. I can see stripping out the little bowl screws sooner or later, then the carb body is trash. With the OEM carb, was removing the seat to get to carb to remove it, was easy to do, but took awhile, was a pain. Cheers
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yes this is carb is great for jetting. wow I have never gotten up to 446 I've never even gotten to 400 but I do have the same problem as you running lean and hot through 3/4 throttle but I run cool and rich to the point of fouling and backfiring at WOT for anything more than two minutes on a 94 main jet and I'm running an open filter now too.
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get the jet set I got like 20 or them lol a couple sizes I have multiple ones of. it sounds like we both may need a different needle one slightly slimmer than W7 I say at scoottunning.ca they have a PHBG needle set which has like 5 sizes for $20 or something like that I may pick that up and give it a try.
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oh and our Malossi BBKs don't have squish so no need to worry bout that
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pace, you have W7 needle? I am pretty sure I have W16 which I think is way thinner than W7. See the below link to a Dellorto PHBG needle comparison chart. If raising my needle doesn't do it, I need to order W6, W17, W15, W13, and W14 from leaner to richer in that order based upon the linked chart. Note: chart is apparently from AF1 Racing and probably good info.
(http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q545/Spudgun60/Needles-2_zpsvhz9dzgw.jpg)
next link is from Greenflag racing, probably good info and seems to confirm the above chart
(http://www.greenflagkarting.com/dell/images/w_needle.gif)
I looked a little and couldn't find Dellorto PHBG needle sets or any needles at scoottuning.ca. dellortodirect.com has all the goodies, but I understand shipping is high. Cheers
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Success, raising needle did the trick. Still need to tune some more, but can cruise without overheating, yea! Runs like champ, definitely more acceleration than Super 9 LC, but probably not more top speed. Gas mileage not so great, but can probably get it better with more tuning, Dellorto supposed to be best for mileage. I guess next mod will be Tecnigas Trek pipe.
I experienced the plug fouling WOT, so know main jet is a little rich. 1st time did it, I though stuck engine again, but CHT was too cool, only approx 350F. Treatland has W6 needle, best I can tell the next leaner needle to try after W16, should have ordered it my last order, but didn't know enough.
I am very happy with it, all was worth it. Cheers
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I'm finding out like you that tuning takes time. My People runs great once it's warmed up but having a horrible time getting it to start when it's cold. I finally have some time today to get the jetting set. First the main and then I'll start on the slow speed. Glad you got your overheating issue fixed.
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The OEM electric choke and auto petcock is not the best IMO. I have pod air filters on all of my scooters and almost always use a plastic grocery bag wrapped around the air filter to get started. I have one Super 9 LC that the electric choke doesn't work and it starts easy with the plastic grocery bag trick.
With the BBK, I noticed the engine was easier to start. I attributed it to more vacuum on the auto petcock allowing the bowl to fill up with gas quicker?
The 19mm Malossi Dellorto carb has nice manual choke, a lot better IOM than the expensive OEM electric one. I upgraded to the $15 optional pull choke, and replaced the remote choke with the cable extension. So far has started easy, no issues. Cheers
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nice glad you figured it out bro so what is you current setup? needle position, main, and idle jets? Also I still get that WOT fouling issue at WOT for any period of time it does scare the hell out of me like it's seizing but like you I'm way to cook for that it's the mid rang where I'm running too hot at and need to figure out. this is the kit I was talking about.
http://scootertuning.ca/en/carburettors/5133-carburetor-needle-kit-naraku-phbg.html (http://scootertuning.ca/en/carburettors/5133-carburetor-needle-kit-naraku-phbg.html)
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I running needle all the way up, everything else is as I received with the carb. I verified needle in my carb is W16. I don't know what my main jet is, it's drilled out to 1.2mm, 1mm is approx 102 main jet. I have some larger main jets coming in from treatland so will be trying them soon.
pace, that kit doesn't have any of the needles I think we need? Treatland only has one needle on my list, W6 as I recall.
I am noticing as mileage goes down, so does amount of oil from the oil pump. My gas mileage really dropped off as I tried larger and larger main jets to cool the engine. The drop in oil pumped is approx the same as the decrease in gas mileage, for example: going from 60mpg to 40mpg is 33% decrease in mpg. And, the amount of oil pumped dropped approx 33% from 2.5oz to 1.75oz per gallon. I noticed this earlier when mileage dropped from 60 to 50mpg oil pumped dropped from 2.5oz per gallon to 2oz.
I am going to add 2oz oil to the tank each fill-up, that and what the oil pump is doing should give me over 3.5oz per gallon which should be plenty of oil. Based upon my experience with BBK, running just the oil pump is not enough oil. Hopefully, the Dellorto will get better mileage after it's jetted better and I can decrease the amount of oil added to the tank. Cheers
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give up the fantasy about better mileage it's not gonna happen. I am premixing at 40/1 again since my cable snapped and so pump is just pumping idle speed oil which is like 100/1 all the time. My setup was based upon some extensive testing and experienced people over at 49ccscoot.com running similar setups. When running the AU 2T internals you need the thicker W7 needle to control flow since there is no air mixed with fuel in atomizer as there is with the 2T stuff. they run on leanest position I have mine one up from that to keep from being too hot in mid range. they run 90 I'll be moving to that soon I"m running way to rich at WOT on a 94. the only thing I haven't changed like they have is the slide I'm running the stock 40 slide while they play with theirs a bit to get right amount of air flow. one even filed his down to what he thinks is a 45. Them boys over there dont play you can get lost with all the info on that forum. I probably will get the set or try one that was a slightly slimmer and longer taper or same taper but longer length of taper.
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pace, you are way ahead of me, I spent too much time on OEM carb.
I think mine will run good with what I have after I get main jetted properly, too rich now. I will probably also drop the needle to one notch from the bottom to test. If need to run too rich to keep engine cool and still have fouling problem, can always run a hotter plug. I understand NGK BR7HSA is next hotter plug and is available on the web.
After I get carb dialed in better, it's on to the CVT, and maybe Tecnigas Trek pipe? Actually, I am wanting to put 19mm carb and Trek pipe on one of my Super 9 LC's. I am pretty comfortable installing the carb now, and different pipe is easy bolt on job. I think would give it a little more top end. Cheers
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well the problem you have now is with either way you go next....pipe or cvt upgrade its back to dialing the Dellorto in lol. The struggle is real bro it's a never ending issue after looking at some things I may try the W20 needle its a long taper and slightly wider at the bottom than W7 I will see IDK lol its a constant issue never gonna have it perfect yr round always playing with it cuz of temps or altitude or whatever lol.
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Got my main jets in from treatland, looks good cause largest one I ordered 112 is just a little smaller than my drilled 1.2mm which I know is too rich. Also received the metal bowl with the large screw on the bottom, to change main jet, just take out one screw, how cool is that?
http://www.treatland.tv/dellorto-PHBG-race-style-float-bowl-metal-p/dellorto-phbg-race-bowl-metal.htm (http://www.treatland.tv/dellorto-PHBG-race-style-float-bowl-metal-p/dellorto-phbg-race-bowl-metal.htm)
I already tried my 102 main and a little too lean, so next will try 104, then 106, 108, 110, 112 until just right. Last time I changed the needle setting was pretty easy to do too, makes all the difference after you have done it a couple of times and have a little more cable to work with. If cable is too short, very hard to change the needle.
We are thinking opposite on needle. If I need to I will try W6, which I think is next richer compared to W16 that I have now. W20 will be leaner than W7 IMO, but may work great for your set-up IDK. Cheers
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the idea is to be leaner at WOT which is the tip of needle and richer in midrange for me. so that means a longer taper and a wider tip. going from a W16 to a W6 I don't think will make any difference for you at WOT as they are both the same size tip. I run a W7 which has a 1.4mm tip and a mid length taper. The W20 has a much longer taper and a 1.6mm tip which will definitely lean out my WOT some and hopefully the long taper will give me the ability to play more with the needle height and get it running good in all positions.
As for your jets I was running a 109 main with the 4T internals in and it was a bit lean but I had modded my box and filter element. now with 2T internals and open racing filter I'm running a 94 and thats rich at WOT. You'll probably be good between 95 and 99.
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pace, I guess you will have to try, may work for you that way. As I understand it, needle doesn't effect WOT, just 1/4 to 3/4 throttle. If too rich WOT, then need smaller main jet IMO.
I haven't tried it, but read can test carb idle to 3/4 throttle without main jet installed and carb should work well, if idle jet and needle are correct. With OEM Keihin PB16 carb, I kept going to larger and larger main jet and didn't effect engine getting hot mid range. I think couldn't get OEM carb to work, because thinner needles not available, but will never know.
Since you have 2cycle nozzle and mine still has 4cycle our carbs will probably be a little different. Try your set-up and I will try mine, see what happens. For now, I think my needle W16 may be OK, just need to try some diff main jets. Cheers
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I replaced 102 main jet with 108 to try based on pace running 109 with 4cycle nozzle. Went for long ride. Ran awesome, but still getting hot, have to be very careful not to overheat, hit 405F this run, but only after climbing long hill running mid throttle. Plug fouled a couple of times WOT, so think main jet is probably rich. Once engine gets hot, WOT will not cool it down.
Decided to order W6 needle. While researching where to buy found DellortoDirect.com says about idle jet "This jet is used for adjusting the mid throttle range in carburetor". So maybe the missing piece?, I have 42 idle jet and understood I was supposed to have 45, so maybe this is causing the overheating?, maybe don't need thinner needle?, I assumed idle jet was just for idle, maybe not?, I don't know.
So, I ordered W6 needle, 45 and 48 idle jets from treatland. As soon as comes in will test some more. Meanwhile, People is a blast to ride, just have to really watch the CHT. Cheers
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the idle affects all the way up to WOT but after 1/4 throttle not much I would try to raise your needle again if you're running hot at in mid throttle but still rich and cool at WOT unless of course you're up all the way. I ordered W9 needle from treatland as well as 86 and 114 jet lo I'm going to the Smokey Mountain Crawl and riding the Tail of The Dragon in a few weeks and want to have all my bases covered. W9 needle has same tip diameter as W7 but a longer taper so maybe that will help me out in mid. I run 38 in my idle right now and it's rich even with open filter I have 40 or 42, 50, and 55 so if you need one let me know.
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pace, thanks for offer on idle jets, will be early June before I know if 45, 48 work. Have fun on your rides, I have North Texas Scooter Rally coming up 6-10/ 6-12, I am hoping to attend. Cheers
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I've been reading the posts between chaz and pace on jetting hoping to learn something. I have learned, but none of it would apply to my bike. I have been through jetting hell. Nothing was doing what it was supposed to. It wouldn't even do the same thing twice. I ordered a 19 mm Keihin that turned out to be a clone. It didn't have Keihin jets,but I tried the ones I had. Same results. Didn't run worth a crap. Out of lack of anything else to try, I dropped the exhaust and started it. BINGO! It couldn't breathe. I tried to clean it out, but ran a little better for a short while. Then I sawed off the last 3 inches of the muffler. It sounded like a chainsaw but ran faster than I ever thought it would. I have a Tecnigas Next-R on order now.
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I've been reading the posts between chaz and pace on jetting hoping to learn something. I have learned, but none of it would apply to my bike. I have been through jetting hell. Nothing was doing what it was supposed to. It wouldn't even do the same thing twice. I ordered a 19 mm Keihin that turned out to be a clone. It didn't have Keihin jets,but I tried the ones I had. Same results. Didn't run worth a crap. Out of lack of anything else to try, I dropped the exhaust and started it. BINGO! It couldn't breathe. I tried to clean it out, but ran a little better for a short while. Then I sawed off the last 3 inches of the muffler. It sounded like a chainsaw but ran faster than I ever thought it would. I have a Tecnigas Next-R on order now.
What year is yours?
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Mine's an '07 with very low miles and Hoca 70cc BBK. I got it a little under a year ago from an auction. The paperwork with it indicated it had just top end job and a note stressing the importance of quality oil and proper mix. I didn't know it at the time, but it had been de-restricted. The first few days I road it, it ran much like it's supposed to with around 35 being top speed. Then it started going downhill fast. Getting slower and slower each time I road it. Everything I checked seemed to be fine on it. This is when I started realizing it had been de-restricted. My old compression tester had a leak in the hose, so I had a friend bring his hand held gauge over. As I cranked the motor over, he told me I didn't have any compression. I ordered the BBK because I had an idea of what 50cc would do and I didn't want to be in traffic when I can't get out of my own way. I now know there was nothing wrong with the 50cc jug and piston. It might have not needed the first top end job. This exhaust was so clogged, gas would only very slowly run through it. When trying to test the compression, it was building pressure in the exhaust. I've worked on a few 2 cycle engines before, but I've never heard of this extreme before. After cutting off the end of it, I found that's where the clog was, so while waiting on my new exhaust, I used a hammer and chisel open up that last baffle. I put it back on by wrapping it with some 3/4" 3-M semi hard rubber tape. I have no idea what it's purpose is, or where it came from, but it's been here for years and I finally found a use for it. I then wrapped a piece of 4" aluminium around that with 4-1/2" dryer vent clamps at each end. It doesn't make much more noise than stock, but it is robbing me of a little power. I can live with it a while. On flat ground it hits 45 MPH fast and will do over 50 downhill. This is with the stock 14mm carb. It has a #35 idle jet and a #105 main. The needle isn't adjustable, but I made a .040" washer and raised it. That helped a lot on take off.
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lol nice job on that exhaust as I read more and more about these things people complain about the oil pimp leaking oil while sitting into the case and exhaust and more when the do BBK delete it though not everyone and if you ride it daily shouldn't be too much of an issue. I'm going to go out on a limb and say get a Dellorto or Dellorto clone for your carb they seem to be the most popular type though I wish I had gone 21mm instead of 19mm I hear they get better mileage. also one of the things I will be ordering next month is a bigger intake manifold there is one that looks just like our stock ones that is 20mm instead of the 16 or so that our stock ones are. The NextR is a good pipe and what I run but after looking at dyno charts and stuff next time I will go with either the Tek or Triops from Tecnigas or a Stage 6 Pro rep. Good luck bro we can tune on these things forever.
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lol nice job on that exhaust. Good luck bro we can tune on these things forever.
Thank you. I know you can tune them forever, because I've already spent far, far, too much time working on it. Now I can finally ride the damn thing. I liked the Dellorto for several reasons, but if get a larger idle jet, I think this 19mm Keihin clone will work fine. It's a genuine Keihin body, just full of aftermarket jets. I'm not looking to race this thing, and as flimsy as it is, I don't wan't to go real fast. Just get me whee I need to go. My last ride was a '77 -74 CID Harley Davidson Lowrider custom with dual plugs,a Sifton 440 cam and S&S "E" shorty carb, which I had to let go a couple years ago in order to avoid foreclosure on my house. It'll never be the same :-\.
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Have W6 needle installed and I think this may be it. 1st I set it all the way up and appeared too rich, wouldn't idle, so I set it all the way down and went for a ride. W6 all the way down was about the same as the W16 needle all the way up, so W6 definitely richer than W16. Next I set it one slot up, changed out starter jet 55 for 50, and changed out idle jet 42 for 40. Previously, had been really rich at idle and starting after hot, so I thought idle jet and starter jet were probably too rich. I am not thinking idle jet does anything above idle now, have 38 to try, if that doesn't do it, will probably order 36, 34.
With W6 needle installed at 2nd notch up, 50 starter jet, 40 idle jet, maybe 108 main jet?, I went for ride. Was bestever!, would cruise for long time at 80km, but would eventually get too hot. Idle was much better, deceleration was more normal, sounded more like my Super 9, a little lopping, not just dead like it does too rich with closed throttle with this engine. Engine still doesn't want to rev past approx 9500/ 9600 revs, but very happy below that. Pretty fast at that rpm, I am very happy if that's all it will do, acceleration is massive, very fun to ride. I haven't messed with CVT at all, 100% OEM, so will probably accelerate harder and have higher top end with CVT mods.
Next, will raise needle to 3rd slot up (4th slot up is all the way up, richest setting), 38 idle jet, and see how it does.
Have Tecnigas Trek pipe in transit, expected delivery this week or next. I think should be very interesting to test. I am thinking carb is not the bottleneck holding back revs, but pipe, we will see. Cheers
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Raised needle to 3rd notch up, changed idle jet from 40 to 38, verified have 108 main jet, put it all back together and went for long ride. Probably OK now, acted like wouldn't go over 400f, was riding hard, not really backing off to keep cool, eventually went over 400, 403f max CHT. 400f doesn't really bother me anymore, have been there so many times and no issues, but when gets to 400f need to slow down and let cool off. However, now doesn't build heat so fast, and don't have to back off a lot to control temp, so becoming a non issue, but still have to watch CHT.
Another issue was oil pump linkage, seems to require adjustment more than you would think. I like to have pump open the max setting at WOT, but have to be careful don't bottom out cable against stop and put undue tension on barrel end or might fail. So I have been watching for that issue and today found it was loose and not opening as much as I wanted, wasn't pumping as much oil as I wanted, so had to tighten it up a little. Anyways, good idea to check oil pump setting from time to time IMO, or might not be where you want it to be.
Going to 50 starter jet from 55 seemed to help, seems to start easier when hot. Idle jet seems OK at 38, idles nice, and actually have idle mixture adjustment screw turned out 1 turn now, was 1/2 turn to 0 turn with 40 and 42 idle jets and still seemed to be too rich. Noticed don't need screwdriver to adjust idle speed, nice big screw head you can turn with your hand, another nice Dellorto feature on this carb.
Next can try smaller main jet and move needle to full up to test. Probably won't do anything else now until I get Trek pipe and install, then see how it runs and go from there. I am just going to ride it for awhile, it's a blast to ride. Probably not as fast as Super 9 with CVT mods, but pretty close and definitely accelerates harder. Cheers
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glad you got it in tune Chaz I installed a W9 which is same tip diameter as W7 but longer taper and have 92 main and wow it takes off now lol I'm not sure how cool that will run at WOT I got up to 390 or so last sunday with a 94 in but riding 2up with my daughter on board. This Smoky Mountain Crawl (yes without the E in smokey) got me perplexed will be higher altitude, less oxygen, and over 90 degrees when we ride the Tail of The Dragon and A long 150 miles ride in the afternoon. I carry enough tools to take bike apart down to frame and all jets from 86-114 so I hope I'm prepared. Let us know how that exhaust works and also I think the intake manifold and reeds have alot of affect on our engines you can get the 20mm intake that looks just like out small 16.5 or 17mm manifolds should add more air and better mileage. Para over in the Like 50 thread found me on Facebook he's got a 60mph+ Like and he's a fount of information he changed his reedblock for a Malossi he thinks VL9 and runs Malossi Carbon Fiber reeds. I feel my clutch or belt starting to slip not on hot days on long rides so after this Crawl I'll probably start slowly upgrading and replacing CVT.
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pace, can you link where to get the 20mm intake manifold? I think higher altitude will make engine run richer, less HP, will need to go to smaller main jet IMO. Good luck on Crawl, have fun. Cheers
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http://scootertuning.ca/en/intakes/1110000-replacement-intake-manifold-20mm-kymco.html (http://scootertuning.ca/en/intakes/1110000-replacement-intake-manifold-20mm-kymco.html)
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/intake-manifold-20mm-racing-kymco-p-250-1.html?backcPathco=25&cPath=2_26378#.V1l4DJErK00 (http://www.racingplanetusa.com/intake-manifold-20mm-racing-kymco-p-250-1.html?backcPathco=25&cPath=2_26378#.V1l4DJErK00)
I think scooter tuning would be your best bet since they are in Canada I haven't ordered from them but every order from Racing planet has taken 3 weeks or slightly more to get here.
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Mine's an '07 with very low miles and Hoca 70cc BBK. I got it a little under a year ago from an auction. The paperwork with it indicated it had just top end job and a note stressing the importance of quality oil and proper mix. I didn't know it at the time, but it had been de-restricted. The first few days I road it, it ran much like it's supposed to with around 35 being top speed. Then it started going downhill fast. Getting slower and slower each time I road it. Everything I checked seemed to be fine on it. This is when I started realizing it had been de-restricted. My old compression tester had a leak in the hose, so I had a friend bring his hand held gauge over. As I cranked the motor over, he told me I didn't have any compression. I ordered the BBK because I had an idea of what 50cc would do and I didn't want to be in traffic when I can't get out of my own way. I now know there was nothing wrong with the 50cc jug and piston. It might have not needed the first top end job. This exhaust was so clogged, gas would only very slowly run through it. When trying to test the compression, it was building pressure in the exhaust. I've worked on a few 2 cycle engines before, but I've never heard of this extreme before. After cutting off the end of it, I found that's where the clog was, so while waiting on my new exhaust, I used a hammer and chisel open up that last baffle. I put it back on by wrapping it with some 3/4" 3-M semi hard rubber tape. I have no idea what it's purpose is, or where it came from, but it's been here for years and I finally found a use for it. I then wrapped a piece of 4" aluminium around that with 4-1/2" dryer vent clamps at each end. It doesn't make much more noise than stock, but it is robbing me of a little power. I can live with it a while. On flat ground it hits 45 MPH fast and will do over 50 downhill. This is with the stock 14mm carb. It has a #35 idle jet and a #105 main. The needle isn't adjustable, but I made a .040" washer and raised it. That helped a lot on take off.
I have an 2007 also and the exhaust is really restrictive. I've installed a Tecnigas Trek and am working on the jetting to get it right. It's quite a bit faster with the Tecnigas exhaust.
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Still getting too hot, so I raised needle to the 4th notch full up and changed main jet from 108 to 100. I went with smaller main jet because I knew with needle full up would be too rich at idle. I did some reading about how to tune Dellorto carb and still think I am on the right track.
Was a good test, because didn't run very well, but I realized 108 main jet was too rich and wasn't really helping to keep engine cool anyway. With 100 main jet, ran a lot better top end, was rev'g to high 9000s pretty easy, maybe went over 10000 a couple of times. 100 main jet was too lean and still didn't really run any hotter, so verified to me needle controls mid range where engine is getting hot.
Next, probably need to buy the next richer needle which I think may be W15. Think starter jet 50, idle jet 38 are OK. Maybe some benefit going to 2 cycle nozzle, but don't think so, not ready to try that until try next richer needle. Only behaves badly at idle and progression with W6 needle full up, so easier to go to next richer needle than try smaller idle jet, change to 2 cycle nozzle, etc just to keep same needle.
I put it back where it was before, needle up to 3rd notch, changed main jet to 104 and went for long ride. Very close to perfect, but still running hotter than I would like. Would be great if would run well and stay under 380f, but maybe not possible?, hit 400f this time, but was hauling butt for sure.
I computed mileage and oil comsumption and got 48 mpg and 40.5 to 1 oil or 3.2 oz per gallon. I have oil pump connected and add 2 oz oil with each fillup, usually approx 1.3 gallons of gas per fillup. Cheers
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Ordered W17 needle, next richer one best I can tell. Started with W16, then W6, next will try W17. Did some more reading and after reading Dellorto manual 2X's and mopedarmy PHBG tuning guide 2 or 3X's I see some other possibilities, apparently Dellorto carbs can be bottomless holes for spending $'s for parts. Not to worry, I am having fun and scooter is running great, just a little more tweaking, you know saying "you can spend 90% of your time and $'s for the last 10% of results".
If W17 needle doesn't do it, I also ordered 2 cycle 262AU nozzle and bushing to try. Also ordered 264 nozzle to try, don't know what I am getting, didn't specify, but I have 262DL. I am assuming there are only 2 bushings, AU for 2 cycle and AN for 4 cycle, but there are at least 5 different types of nozzles, such as AU, AN, BL, BM, and DL (which I have) available in various sizes from Dellortodirect.com. A larger nozzle is the equivalent to using thinner needle, best I can tell.
May end up getting different slide. Smaller cut-out is richer, larger cut-out is leaner 0 to 1/8 throttle. Mine is too rich so maybe need slide with larger cut-out? Also, order 4gr float which is one for 2 cycle. Mine has "3g5" on it, so don't know what I have, but think maybe 5gr and is behaving like too heavy, which tends of create rich condition.
I am pretty confident will get carb running perfect. Maybe some of the extra parts will come in handy when I put 19mm carb on Super9? Cheers
http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/PHBG_tuning_made_easy._(a_step_by_step_guide) (http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/PHBG_tuning_made_easy._(a_step_by_step_guide))
and http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors (http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors)
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Wondering if you could increase the cooling capacity at all with a scoop of some sort or better fan.
I had thought of going big bore until I read about your temps.
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just got back from The Smoky Mountain Crawl after upjetting I ran god up there in the mountains and on The Tail of The Dragon. The nozzle/atomizer and bushing are designed for different style carbs and applications as AU/AN is 2T/4T the 2T atomizer has no holes for air to mix with the fuel where as the AN 4T has air holes that mix air with fuel before reaching the venturi. The AU bushing also has a c shaped lip to keep fuel and oil from shooting out of carb into the filter when letting off the throttle where as the AN bushing has no lip on it at all. I myself still haven't got the carb perfect but I was running cool up and down the Smokey Mountains all weekend. I've also been told by many 2T guys up there that the 21mm carb will not only give better power but slightly better MPG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH5PWNG9sNM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH5PWNG9sNM)
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pace cool vid, thanks for posting, Cheers
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mclark, pace has same engine Kymco Like 50 2T AC engine and is running cool. I don't know why mine runs so hot, but eventually I will get it figured out.
I have seen at least one scooter with a side scoop to catch some air, have thought about doing it too, but haven't done anything yet. Cheers
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Wondering if you could increase the cooling capacity at all with a scoop of some sort or better fan.
I had thought of going big bore until I read about your temps.
I have a Hoca 70cc BBK. You've seen the trials and tribulations I've been through. I finally discovered the exhaust was my problem, and managed to get it running pretty damn good. All this time my head temp was approaching 300. I installed my Techagas Next R yesterday. I have to say, I wasn't prepared for that. Over 50 on flat road. Haven't had enough time to play yet, but I'll let you know what the temp is later.
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I've heard you want 350-375 degrees at WOT I keep mine around there but it can get hotter doing stop in go or long uphill stretches or just a really hot day.
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Ordered some Dellorto parts from treatland and dellortodirect. Treatland parts came right in, no problems, still waiting on dellortodirect. I did a search on dellortodirect reviews and got back some not so good info: seems they are pretty slow to ship, zero communication, lousy customer service, but eventually stuff arrives.
I am stuck until dellortodirect parts come in, treatland doesn't have some of the parts I wanted, so have to be patient, ride my S9 instead. Cheers
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Malossi 319987
Chaz, do you have the specs, or dimensions of your Malossi piston? Specifically from the top edge to the center-line of the wrist pin. The compression height as they call it. I'd also like to see the intake port on the skirt, if you have a pic.
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blue I may be able yo measure from my previous BBK that blew at 1000 miles due to user error lol. Chaz what did you order that you couldn't find at Treatland?
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Blu, I will have to check to see if I still have the piston. I still have the cylinder and head, thought I might get another piston at some point and use the kit on another scooter. Might be awhile before I can report back, going to be out for a week or so.
Pace, I ordered a needle treatland doesn't carry (W17) and some spares like barrel spring, bolt and nut that attaches carb to manifold (already lost my original), gasket kit, plastic needle plate (almost lost this already when shot loose while working on the driveway, lucky to find it).
If stuff from dellortodirect doesn't come in, I will probably convert carb to 2 cycle AN bushing and atomizer, see how it goes. Cheers
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blue I may be able yo measure from my previous BBK that blew at 1000 miles due to user error lol.
It's because of user error I'm looking for this. I finally got mine running good, then installed the Technigas exhaust that seemed to double what power it had. A couple days later, it quit. Seems my oil injector wasn't working right. I have a severely damaged piston. It's easy to find Hoca BB kits, but not so just buying a piston. I've found a couple that says it's a 47mm piston for the Hoca 70cc BBK on a Kymco People 50. But it shows the compression height at 17mm. That can't be right. I've measured mine as close as I can. I get 28mm from top edge to center-line of the wrist pin.That 17mm dimension would put the top of the wrist pin hole just under the second ring. But, the picture of the piston looks right (and everybody uses the same picture). Anyway, if I ever have to but another one it would be easier to get a Malossi. That is if it has the correct compression height and is ported in the same place. I ordered a Hoca and got something else. The port is much lower and compression height is 24mm instead of 28. I put it in just so I could ride for now. It has much less compression so I have no low end power, although it will eventually do 45 on the flat. My new Hoca will be here Tues.
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I will check for you tomorrow and also post pics of the piston in all its ugly glory but if ig happens to you again go Malossi, Stage 6 or Polini they are worth the extra money and if you shop around you can get they reasonable like th Malossi cast iron at 114 or something like that at www.scooterpartsco.com
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AU you mean lol but yeah I know treatland has the clamp and clamp bolt and nut for intake manifold I haven't looked hard anough to see if they have the plastic piece to seat need into slide but I know they have a rebuild kit also
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Yes, treatland has most everything for Dellorto, but the needle I wanted, so I ordered a few extra bits treatland also doesn't appear to have. If dellortodirect doesn't eventually work out, I will try eurocarb next. Yes AU lol's, was late last night, thought I might be confused?
Blufx, you may find Malossi pistons/ rings to be a little expensive. Scooterpartsco had them very reasonable, but when I looked yesterday, I don't see them on their website. I looked yesterday and saw a bunch of Hoca 47mm pistons on ebay for < $30, but maybe don't fix your kit IDK? Seems like easy to stick these BBK's, my experience anyway, Pace would probably agree. If you can, put Trailtech TTO CHT on it, may help you keep it alive better. Good Luck.
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Blufx, you may find Malossi pistons/ rings to be a little expensive. Scooterpartsco had them very reasonable, but when I looked yesterday, I don't see them on their website. I looked yesterday and saw a bunch of Hoca 47mm pistons on ebay for < $30, but maybe don't fix your kit IDK? Pace would probably agree. If you can, put Trailtech TTO CHT on it, may help you keep it alive better. Good Luck.
I was trying to save money when I bought the Hoca BBK. Beginning to regret that now, but if a Malossi piston will work in the Hoca cylinder, I only have to buy it once, right? The Hoca pistons you saw on eBay are the ones I'm questioning. All of them state it will work on my scoot, but at the same time have compression height in the picture showing 17mm. If it is, there's no way it will run in my scoot. My piston measures 1.102" or 28mm from top edge to center of the pin. I have one on order now hoping it's a mistake.
PIC #1 Is off the eBay ad
PIC #2 Actual distance on my piston
PIC #3 Where the center of the pin hole would be if that 17mm dimension were right.
Help me out here. What the heck is all this: " If you can, put Trailtech TTO CHT on it, may help you keep it alive better."
Thanks,
Blu
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CHT measures head temp at the sparkplug. Trailtech makes a nice one for approx $40, have to shop around for best price, I got one 20% off at treatland, see link
http://www.trailtech.net/723-et3 (http://www.trailtech.net/723-et3)
Good luck finding right piston, I had no idea "compression height" could be so different with same crank and rod?
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I had no idea "compression height" could be so different with same crank and rod?
That's my point exactly. Without changing the height of the cylinder, how can that be? That 17mm either is a mistake, or it's not meant to be used on a Kymco.
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Blufx, below is link to Malossi piston at Scooterpartsco, supposted to fit the Malossi BBK for Kymco AC engines like People 50 2T Malossi pn 319987
https://scooterpartsco.com/malossi/malossi-master-part-list/malossi-piston-47mm (https://scooterpartsco.com/malossi/malossi-master-part-list/malossi-piston-47mm)
https://scooterpartsco.com/kymco-people-parts/kymco-people-50-2t/malossi-70cc-big-bore-kit-for-kymco-people-cobra-2t?zenid=visrslv6qikmjgj4icidn2hif2 (https://scooterpartsco.com/kymco-people-parts/kymco-people-50-2t/malossi-70cc-big-bore-kit-for-kymco-people-cobra-2t?zenid=visrslv6qikmjgj4icidn2hif2)
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Blufx, below is link to Malossi piston at Scooterpartsco, supposed to fit the Malossi BBK for Kymco AC engines like People 50 2T Malossi pn 319987
Thanks for the links, chaz but neither of pics show the port side of the piston. Malossi says that piston comes in 8 different sizes, but offers no info on the sizes. I can guess the last two are .4 and .8mm over size, but don't have a clue on the others. Meanwhile, the d_ckhead I ordered mine from is jerking me around. Presumably because I pointed out his was a d_ickhead. LOL One more day and it gets here.
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OK. One more time. I finally got the correct piston today. I have the oil injector disconnected and plenty of pre-mixed gas I'm putting in the fattest main jet I have while breaking in the rings. Wish me luck.
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Good luck
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I gave up on my dellortodirect order, 30 days and nothing. I sent them 2 requests for status on my order, no reply. I notified paypal I want my $'s back. I don't have the W17 needle I wanted to try with the AN bushing and atomizer.
So, what to do, guess it's time to install the AU bushing and atomizer which I got from treatland. After some research and thinking about it for long time, I popped the bushing out using a 6mm bolt lightly screwed into the bushing. The 6mm bolt threads were a little diff, so I didn't torque it much, just enough to take out the slack. With the top off the carb, carb body facing down, and a light tap on the bolt head, the bushing popped out easy, no damage to the bushing or atomizer (in case I want to use it again).
I installed the AU bushing with the open side facing the engine. I tapped it into the hole with 7mm socket, and pulled it snug by tightening the atomizer. Swapping out the AN bushing for AU bushing turned out to be easy, but initially was scary, so I put it off for long time.
I verified Malossi 19mm carb has 4g float, 105 main jet, 38 idle jet, 50 starter jet, 30 barrel, AU bushing, 262 atomizer, and W6 needle. I put it all back together, and was too rich. pace already said it was going to be too rich, so I wasn't surprised. I just wanted to see for myself. Tomorrow I will try some leaner jets.
Also, I think I figured out can try different size atomizers in addition to trying different needles. Instead of getting longer/ narrower W17 needle, can try larger atomizer So, my plan if W6 needle is still to lean mid range with the AU bushing and atomizer installed, I will try 264 atomizer vs 262. Cheers
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Carb now way too rich. I installed my smallest main jet 96, changed needle to leaner W16, set 2nd notch from the top, and still way too rich, but idles nice with 35 idle jet.
I am going to order following: main jets 94,92,90,88,86, W9 needle, and AU 260 atomizer. pace, what do you think? Cheers
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need a W7 or W9 needle set 2nd from top a 38 idle jet and a 88-92 main jet. I'm running a 96 main on mine but it's rich and I got the opem Malossi PHBG filter from treatland.tv on there.
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pace, thanks Buddy. I think will get W7 and W9 needles. Will order tonight, treatland has fast service, very reasonable shipping rates, so I should have soon. Cheers
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Got in some more carb parts and did some more testing, bad news, same issue.
This engine overheats even when so rich it cuts out. The final carb settings were W9 needle, 3rd notch down, 86 main jet, 40 idle jet, AU 262 atomizer and bushing. I have also started adding 3oz oil when I fill-up with gasoline and still have the oil pump connected. I am pretty sure it's not the carb. Have been racking my brain for solution. I did some reading, was seriously thinking about lowering compression to detune engine (raising cylinder with extra base gasket(s), and/ or enlarging combustion chamber).
Was also thinking about running hotter plug to deal with plug fouling. Then I saw a couple of posts where guys use cooler plug for 70cc BBKs. Josh/ Areomyst at ScooterInvasion recommends NGK BR9HS for 70cc kits, and I have very high regard for him. Guy on that forum was having similar overheating issues and cooler plug solved it for him, amazing. Maybe I have pre-ignition and never realized it? I have never had problem with pre ignition before, so I don't have a feel for it, but my symptoms seem like that's what it could be. Pre ignition would definitely cause high temps.
I have been using the standard NGK BR8HSA, and maybe all I need is NGK BR9HS?
So, I ordered some NGK BR9HS plugs and will wait until they come in. Good chance this will fix my problem, I am hopeful. Cheers
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bro you are running lean if you are adding 3 OZ in gas tank and an 86 main jet. when you premix you got to factor that in as it leans your gas try a 90 I know you're in TX and all but you shouldn't be having that much trouble dialing it in. with a 96 main on mine and an open filter on there not premixing just relying on the pump I barely ever get to 350 here running around in 90+ weather at WOT all the time.
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hello pace, what plug you running?
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Hopefully, cooler sparkplug will be the answer, should have some by middle next week, have to be patient. I am really enjoying my S9 LC, running very well.
I did see where one post stated many engine builders detune these engines. Based upon my experience, I can see why. Meanwhile, I did some checking on effect of adding an additional cylinder base gasket to decrease compression ratio, which should help engine run cooler.
The base gasket is approx .020" thick or approx .5mm. The Malossi BBK is approx 72cc, combustion chamber is approx 6cc, so compression ratio is approx 12 to 1. I measured the combustion chamber volume with burette tube accurate to .01cc and came in pretty close to 6cc. The OEM compression ratio is 10.3 to 1 +/- .02.
I computed the cylinder volume of 47ml bore and .5mm stroke (diameter of BBK piston and thickness of additional cylinder base gasket) and came to approx .9cc additional combustion chamber volume. 72cc/ 6.9cc equals compression ratio of approx 10.4 to 1, or approx stock compression.
So, it appears I could add 1 additional cylinder base gasket and decrease compression ratio to approx stock. I am not a mechanists, so if you see any erroneous assumptions, please let me know. If cooler sparkplug doesn't work, I will probably add 1 additional cylinder base gasket. Cheers
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lol you're way over my head with all that I'm a put it in it runs better take it out it runs worse type guy lol. I'm running the 8 at one point was thinking bout running a 7 plug but never did I just blew my kit again with 5K miles on it but I got about 3K miles more than I thought I would out of it. I had oil pump cable snap one night at WOT 9600RPM and screaming down a hill and the engine siezed hard ever since then it had been running good but noticeably not as strong or fast so I knew I had damaged it. Was hoping to make it through the summer but oh well I will tear it apart today to check but I believe it just gave up the ghost slowly yesterday but not catastophic like last time so should be just an easy swap out. Plug looked good and just a tad rich when I pulled it lol.
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Sorry to hear, but I must admit Malossi BBK can take a lot of abuse and keep running. I love the power, am pretty close to getting it perfect, just not there yet. I also really like the Malossi 19mm Dellorto kit, very tempted to buy another one, try on 49cc S9.
Thanks for plug info. I was leaning for hotter plug (7) until I saw a couple of posts suggesting cooler (9), so I will try that. My NGK BR8HSA plug looked good too, maybe a little rich. If this thing runs better with cooler plug, it will be amazing lol's. Cheers
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I would get the 21mm Dellorto carb kit if I had to do it again in fact once all is said and done I will most likely get a 21mm dellorto or clone. pulled engine out of scoot and yeah talk about thermal meltdown lol will post pics later.
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pace, post link to 21mm dellorto kit you keep talking about. Cheers
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I think I saw one at scooterpartsco.com under Malossi parts but you and I would be better of just buying the carb standalone only thing I think that doesn't swap from 19mm is the slide. Needles and jets should be the same on both.
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Interesting pics of your engine, looks similar to my engine. Notice piston failed at exhaust port. I remember a couple of guys saying looked like pre-ignition to them. I decided it wasn't, but I am not so sure now.
I think barrels are the same for 19mm and 21mm. Cheers
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pace, how does wrist pin bearing look?, check rod play. Rod up and down play shouldn't feel any, side to side, very little, less than 1/32", maybe need new crankshaft? You getting new BBK, or just new piston?
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pin and crank are good this time around I had gotten a very beefy Malossi bearing has almost no play inside piston when installed. I'm gonna buy a whole new kit and install it if this one give me trouble soon then I'll probably need to crack open the case.
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pace, I was talking about testing the rod and big bearing. I remember you getting special wrist pin bearing, just curious how wrist pin bearing looked. Mine was in bad shape, but hey, you didn't run grinding compound through your engine, like I did, lol's.
Got in NGK BR9HS plugs, will test tomorrow and report back.
Have been reading some of 245luigi BBK posts, a lot of good info, like another guy verified CHT temps we have been running. Cheers
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Yeah I've read 245luigi posts and actually talked with him in messages a bit. Also ParaIndiana, Amish Sasquach, and Dr Frankenscoot I got them all on friends list and Club page on Facebook.
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I know about Amish, but the other 2? Guess I will have to check out your FB sometime. Cheers
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Para isn't active on here anymore but he has posted on Like thread and has a bike close to 245 and about what I want to finish with Dr is on 49cc
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I tested NGK BR9HS plug, seemed to be better, I definitely recommend it. I still hit over 400f, but ran better and generally stayed a lot cooler. I think something bad was happening with BR8HSA plug, I assume it was getting too hot and had pre-ignition. I will not be running BR8HSA with BBK anymore.
With carb up to now, I am either too rich and runs bad or too lean and gets hot really fast. With AU nozzle I can finally get jetting rich enough, maybe too rich? Carb has 86 main, 40 idle, W9 needle set 2nd notch down. I think needle a little too rich, so I will lower needle to 1st notch or try W7 needle. I think main a little too rich, but unfortunately 86 main is my smallest jet, will have to place another order.
Was interesting how throttle response and load on engine effected performance. Generally, 86 main was OK under a load accelerating or going up a hill, but too rich to cruise. In the needle range, often better with less throttle, which indicated too rich condition. I can see where someone racing wouldn't have the tuning issues you have riding on the street. When I used to race karts, a tuned racing engine normally wouldn't idle, and once you got going it was WOT almost all the time, there was no cruising.
I still think engine needs to be detuned a little. With different plug, I will mess with the carb a little more before I try detuning it. Have more ideas how to detune. I have damaged head from 1st kit I could enlarge combustion chamber a little at a time and test instead of 2nd cylinder base gasket. Then wouldn't be changing port height, but would still lower compression. Cheers
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Maybe 1st time did long run and didn't go over 400 degrees, max temp was 394F.
I need smaller main jet to test, but don't have anything smaller than 86, so tried using smaller idle jet. Dellorto tuning instructions says idle jet effects jetting from idle to WOT and I believe it. I changed idle jet from 40 to 38, and then to 35 and ran a little better each time. Still not there, main jet too large, running too rich, but keeping engine cool. I was consistently cruising at approx 80k/ 50mph, but engine was balking from time to time because too rich. Max revs 9600 to 9770 as I recall, so was flying a couple of times.
I also noticed effect of ambient temp. I did 2 long runs today, 1st run was hotter, then cooled down and rained. Engine definitely running cooler with cooler air temps.
Believe it or not, I am still having a great time with this scooter. I think have just about got Dellorto carb figured out, and really like it. I will order some more Dellorto parts and keep trying to dial it in. The BR9HS plug was huge. Hopefully, can get carb tuned so engine runs like it supposed to and not overheat. However, at some point it, if can't keep it cool when it's running right, will have to detune engine.
With a little less compression, engine should still run great. I know how it's supposed to run, my Super 9 LC runs perfect IMO. BBK should run the same way, except have more acceleration. It's been long road, but I am still making progress, and having fun. Cheers
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I put new kit on lastnight will install engine later today and hopefully begin the breakin again. I may have to check out the cooler plug though I don't have the overheating issues. I think what the hesitation at WOT is is 4 stroking because of being to rich I have heard it can damage engines if happens to often
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Yes, I think balking is bad for engine, puts it under a lot of stress. Good luck on your new BBK. Cheers
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25 miles on one hour heat cycle yesterday 40 miles on a lil bit over one hour heat cycle today but higher rpms. I also changed belt at same time and definitely notice the difference but now at 8K which is what I'm trying to stay at or under during break in at half throttle or under I'm running hot I did change jet to 94 and take off the dust/rain cover of open filter maybe tomorrow I will tryt o run with cover back on if thats not it will need to raise needle a notch. I am definitely loving the power and pull though ran so long on a damaged kit the new kit seems like a rocket.
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Yes, a worn out engine will run nice and cool. Hope you don't have same issue as me, but mine is definitely a rocket when it's not too rich, but still gets hot. Mine turned 10100 revs yesterday.
I am still messing with carb, seems to be very fine line between too rich and too lean, and several thousand different combinations to try. Next I am going to try different throttle barrel, have 30 installed, and have 40 and 50 to try. As I understand it, 40 will run a little leaner, and 50 leaner still 1/8 to 1/2 throttle. I am going to try W7 needle too, and maybe W9 (don't have yet).
245luigi had link to cool 2 cycle tuning book and I read some of it. One take away I got from book was you want to tune carb to be very close to being too rich. Book encouraged me to keep trying with the carb, might eventually get it just right. I got it pretty close with OEM carb, but didn't have different needles, etc to try. Got real close with 19mm carb with AN nozzle, but then couldn't get the needle I wanted W16. So I switched over the AU nozzle and had to start over. Have learned a ton about Dellorto carbs, ask me anything, I can tell you lol's.
I have also been reading about squish. Next, I am going to check squish in my engine, check combustion chamber cc's, and maybe try adding a cylinder base gasket. I remember a kart engine I used to run Rotax FR125 that had different thichness cylinder base gaskets you could try. Thinner gave more compression, more low to mid torque, thicker more top end power. One thing I remember, engine with thinner base gasket had more compression and was harder to tune carb. I think parallel to what I have now, too much compression, very hard to tune carb. That engine was LC, I think AC harder to tune cause quicker to get too hot, LC can take more abuse.
I never actually worked on that engine, was before I started working on 4 cycle engines. That engine made 28hp and if anything was wrong, it would blow for sure, so I was afraid to work on it. Expensive too, $3000 for engine, $700 to rebuild, etc.
245luigi also linked ParaIndiana Like 50 BBK build, lots of good info, cool vid of him at the drag races with Like 50, looks like ran great. But I will tell you, BBK tuned to run at drags would run too hot cruising 50mph on country road, I am prettty sure of that.
Cheers
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yeah I talk with ParaIndiana all the time on Facebook he found me through my road rage news story on one of the pages I posted it to. I've got about 150 miles on new Kit so going harder with it I put dust cover back on air filter didn't make a difference with heat and the plug is definitely showing lean or hot so I changed 94 main for a 98 will be going for a ride in a sec to see how that does. Triesandluth is coming into town for 3 days and will have a loaner scooter for him and his gf from locals so we'll get some ride time in. I just talked with him about squish...I feel like the Malossi kit doesn't use it as it is an oring on head and a paper base gasket instead of the thicker and thinner metal base gaskets for other kits to change squish but then again I'm still learning bout these things. I also ported and polished exhaust port really good this time to help scavenge gasses and help to keep from 4 stroking from being rich and this time used a new metal and paper gasket and tyhe Malossi crush gasket on exhaust and I think it's sealed better than ever before for the moment. I'm also running pump zip tied to a lil past thre hash mark for stock oil and adding a tad to fuel to help rings seal better it smokes nice lol but seems to be working as this kit is definitely strong.
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Malossi has squish, just like others, 245luigi incorrect IMO.
O-ring head gasket makes it non-adjustable on head, unless you have head machined, which I probably wouldn't do. I think o-ring head is pretty standard. I think they use o-ring because probably required on LC heads, do AC the same way, so don't have to retool. I looked some for flat head gasket that would fit, but didn't find anything. I may check web for how to make one out of copper sheets, probably fairly easy to do, but maybe expensive after you buy the copper sheets, tools to cut it, etc.
I haven't measured squish yet, but will report back when I do. I think fairly easy to measure, may do it tonight. Earlier I didn't want to mess with it, but I am ready to look at now. I am thinking I want the 20mm intake mainifold now, may help with temp? At 1st I thought too expensive for what you get, but looking better to me now. Did you know is Kymco part?, maybe can get cheaper somewhere else, racingplanet is not the cheapest place, but has a lot of cool stuff.
Yesterday, I ran 84 main jet and was too rich, next I am trying 83.
I think best tuning tool is CHT we have been using. A lot easier/ better than plug chops IMO. If you read a lot of BBK kits install threads, they almost always will stick them at some point, and don't know what happened. With CHT, you can at least monitor head temp and see if something is wrong.
I am getting close, mine keeps running better incrementally. I keep coming up with new ideas to try. A lot of work, but has been fun. Cheers
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Tried 40 throttle barrel, appears to help a lot, leaned it out just enough. I was for the 1st time cruising at approx 9000 rev's with CHT at good temp, 350 to 370F, amazing. Carb specs: 83 main jet, 40 idle jet, throttle barrel 40, needle W9 set at 3rd notch down from the top. Max CHT 415F, but was at very little throttle, going down slope. Accelerating, or cruising under a load was good. Maybe needs larger idle jet, might try 42 next. Maybe need to change driving style and get out of gas all the way to reduce speed, engine doesn't like very little throttle position.
I did figure out the ring clatter sound, happens when engine is too hot. For one tank of gas, I added an extra 1 oz oil, but really didn't make any difference. I finally figured it out when I kept going to leaner jetting, and didn't have the noise, hear it when engine is really hot, rev's are high, but engine is under very little load. I am running oil pump normal, and adding 2 oz oil per fillup, usually 1.3 gallons. Based upon my records, I am burning approx 3 oz per gallon gas, or approx 43 to 1.
Tomorrow I plan to check squish. Cheers
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I checked squish and came up with .060" or approx 1.5mm on both sides of the piston at the wrist pin. That's pretty conservative IMO. I have never seen the actual spec and don't know what it should be.
I do know if set-up for racing, it would probably be less. I checked the Rotax Max FR125 I am familiar with and the spec is .9mm to 1.1mm for a racing engine, so 1.5mm is not totally out of the realm of possibility for a sport engine. With 2 cylinder base gaskets, I could increase squish to .080" or approx 2mm, which I hope will keep the engine cooler.
I just got back from a long ride and ran great, but still gets too hot. To keep engine cool, I have to run it too rich. From time to time depending upon the slope of the road, wind direction/ speed, how long I have been cruising, etc the engine will get a little leaner and really take off and run like it's supposed to. However, it will soon get too hot and I have to slow way down to cool it off. If someone was riding my Super 9 LC with me, my People 50 2T with Malossi 70cc BBK would get left behind by a 49cc LC. My Malossi BBK is definitely a jack rabbit, but has to take breaks from time to time, so where/ how I ride, it is coming in last.
I am tried of tuning the carb for now and ready to try something new. Next, I will add the additional base gasket and see how that goes.
I have also been looking at Airsal 70cc Sport kit, which is advertised to run cooler, and may try one of those? Cheers
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Airsol is meant more for race or someone who will tear down engine more often and is only 1 ring design I have heard good things about the Athena/Stage 6 kit (Stage 6 is a repackaged Athena) and the Polini Corsa kit. I am almost where I want to be I thin I'll drop jet tomorrow to 96 and possibly play with needle afterwards if needed but she's flying good now and only getting hot when it starts missing cuz of too rich and 4 stroking because (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160804/3a9659cd27ee771af15c6a990bfb8088.jpg)
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I pulled cylinder tonight and added another cylinder base gasket. Exhaust, cylinder looked really good, color dark approx 1" into header, then turns nice light color, no carbon. Piston has some blow by from the balking I would imagine, but otherwise looks OK. No rough spots on cylinder or piston best I could tell. Would be easy to hone cylinder and change rings, but I just want to add a gasket and do my test.
One thing I have often wondered about, if my engine shroud is complete, maybe why I am running hot? I'll take a pic tomorrow and post. It has open area on carb side approx 1" wide and 3 or 4" long to let air out I assume, or maybe I am missing a piece that's supposed to be there, I don't know?
I rode maybe 2 hours, 40 miles or so, was hottest time of day, over 100F today, so good test for my engine overheating. High temp 407F, max rev's 9950. Was fun, except when had to slow for hot engine, can be dangerous in traffic, so I don't like it. This thing is amazing when it hits the just right spot and takes off, very smooth and powerful. Seems really strange my main jet is so small, I was too rich with 83 main jet.
Will do my 2 cylinder base gasket test tomorrow, and report back. Cheers
This is Airsal BBK I was thinking about: http://scootertuning.ca/en/cylinders/73003-cylinder-airsal-sport-70cc-kymco.html (http://scootertuning.ca/en/cylinders/73003-cylinder-airsal-sport-70cc-kymco.html)
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I added 2nd cylinder base gasket, put all back together and went for long ride, very hot day, over 100F. Made fairly significant difference, ran a lot better and cooler. I can tell carb needs some more tuning now, too lean low end, too rich top end. Maybe need to replace plug, so will install new NGK BR9HS for next ride.
Piston in the hole approx .020", recessed lip on combustion chamber for squish approx .020" and cylinder base gasket approx .020" equals .060" squish I previously measured. I added another gasket, so now squish should be approx .080" or 2mm. I am thinking now would run better with larger combustion chamber, but don't want to increase squish anymore, 2mm probably too much as it is. Will be looking for someone with lathe who knows something about cutting head for 2 cycle engine.
People 50 2T definitely faster than Super 9 LC now, except can still get too hot. Now, appears only does it when very little throttle. Engine seems to have nice powerband starting approx 8500 to 9000 revs, makes a lot of heat in this range with very little throttle, but runs cools if under load and lots of throttle. If additional gasket didn't make difference, I was going to maybe check for air leak next, but don't think has air leak.
I am happy, feel like made a lot of progress, but still some to go. I can tell this engine has some more speed, just need to keep tweaking. Cheers
1st pic is blower housing, does cut out area look OK?
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0534_zpswmwznhdc.jpg)
2nd pic is head, some carbon on exhaust port side.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0535_zpsuvfjon6b.jpg)
3rd pic is piston, I guess doesn't look great, but engine has good compression.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0537%201_zpscvhxnssp.jpg)
4th pic is inside cylinder exhaust port side, showing some wear, but no deep scratches, looks OK to me, engine has had lots of abuse, and approx 2000 miles.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0540_zpsvrawxxcb.jpg)
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I did some reading on 49ccscootproboards, a great info resource. I found 2mm squish probably pretty good, maybe even go to 3 base gaskets, and ring chatter I am hearing is probably detonation. I also think my Malossi BBK is running fantastic compared with others, maybe I have been too critical, expecting too much from it.
Now, I wonder if balking I am getting at WOT is really pre-ignition, and not rich condition? I changed to new plug and seemed to help with balking some. However, was cooler time of day so probably not the plug, probably cooler air temp that helped?
I was looking at Airsal 49cc kit too. Looks pretty cool, has huge exhaust ports with bridge in the middle. Some say it runs like 70cc kit, but didn't see builds, costs same as 70cc kit, so not many willing to try it. I will probably order Airsal gasket set to try, has 2 base gaskets and 1 head gasket I could probably use to adjust squish on my Malossi BBK. Cheers
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Hey do you still have that Malossi Final Gear set?
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This is how yesterday went for me(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/082898ccabbec335359b20ad8da58f3d.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/9a347e52e717d96a9ae1ab4b053f671d.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/657b43f26695b25687418afe4a5c38ce.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/6c328784fa09d47dcbbfb3fda762d3d1.jpg)
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What happened?, looks like shaft broke at clutch? Is that OEM Kymco part or Malossi? As I recall, final drive kit replaces shaft the clutch is mounted to.
Sorry, I haven't looked at my Super 9 LC to see if either of my final drives work on it or not. Maybe will soon, I need to replace rear tire on one, would be a good time to check. I need to keep my final drives until I can figure out what I have. All I know, they don't work on my People 50 2T. I will probably get rid of my People at some point, and only have S9's going forward. Cheers
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Yeah going WOT in 4 lane traffic needle buried hit a bump and snap. Well I guess I'll have to pay full price for it then they're aren't as cheap as they used to be
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I feel like carb a little too lean less throttle and too rich lots of throttle. So, I changed idle jet from 40 to 42, turned out the mixture adjustment screw 1/2 turn to 2 turns out, and went for long ride. Definitely helped some, spot where engine wants to race at approx 8500 to 9000 revs and get too hot cleared up, ran cooler, high temp for ride 394F. Engine was pretty happy to cruise at approx 7800 to 8200 revs, could do that all day now.
Since I now recognize detonation and apparently pre-ignition, I am wondering if main jet is rich? I already associated detonation with too much heat. Was surprising that have detonation when you reduce throttle. I always thought it happened when engine was under a load, so learned something new. Will have to do some more testing, but I am starting to notice doesn't have pre-ignition unless engine maybe hotter than 370, then it will balk if go WOT for long. pace has described the same symptom, engine balks at WOT, and we thought engine was too rich. I not so sure now. I think cooler plug helped, so that indicates pre-ignition to me.
I may try larger main jet, but 1st I'll try larger idle jet, the next size is 45 as I recall. I have them all from 35 to 48, and ordered 50 and 52. I also ordered nozzle AU264, and needle W3 to try. So I will have nozzles AU260, 262, and 264, and needles W3, W6, W7, W9, and W16. Needles W3 and W9 appear to be the best needles, have the same taper length. W3 shaft diameter is a little smaller than W9. So, I can try W3 and W9 with different nozzles and maybe get better results? Needle W9 and nozzle AU262 is leaner than W3 and nozzle AU262, but W3 with nozzle AU260 compared with W9 with nozzle AU262 I don't know?
Another goal is to get engine to rev better, seems to labor at higher revs. My Super 9 LC loves to rev, I want BBK to run same way. Maybe getting close to time to try new Tecnigas Trek pipe. Cheers
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Larger idle jet went the wrong way, ran too rich most of the time, generally ran cooler, high temp 392F. Did show some flashes of brilliance between needle and main jet throttle positions, so I know there is serious HP in there.
Don't really have anything else to try until get some more carb parts in. I may add another base gasket, still seems like too much compression. 2 most helpful changes have been cooler plug and 2nd cylinder base gasket. Until then, tuning carb was hopeless IMO, it was too lean and too hot, or too rich and 4 cycles, no in between. Another base gasket (3 total) may be the trick. Cheers
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just bought Stage 6 upgear kit hope that will lower my rpms no need to go WOT much I may try your plug theory out not gonna mess with gasket though
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Yes, the up gear is critical IMO. Otherwise, you have tons of power, but can't shift out of 1st gear lols. My Super 9 LC (after I did the CVT mods tha gives a little more top speed) is geared perfect for 49cc IMO, but would definitely need up gear with BBK.
I take it you didn't have up gear before, and this is 1st one? Looking forward to your report. As I recall, you will lose some low end acceleration, but should be able to compensate for that with CVT mods.
While I am waiting for more carb parts, think I will try 50 throttle barrel, should lean it out a little up to 1/2 throttle. May also lower needle 1 notch from 3 down to 2 down.
Actually, People 50 2T is running pretty well. Yesterday, I passed a couple of Harleys and they didn't go around me again until we hit a long straight, then they blew by me going maybe 70mph in 50mph zone, it was fun.
The other cool aspect with the base gaskets is you maybe can get more duration/ ports open longer. I am new to all that, and definitely not ready to start grinding on the ports, but additional base gaskets may be a good mod for other reasons too. What you are looking for is to have piston even with bottom of ports at BDC, which gives maximum duration/ time ports are open. I think normally, piston is just a little above bottom of ports at BDC. I will check mine and report back. Cheers
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Changed throttle barrel to 50 from 40 and dropped needle to 2nd notch down from 3rd nothch down. Both adjustments should have leaned it out a little. I took for ride, and ran great, probably best it has ever run. However, got too hot as usual, so returned pretty quick. Took out my Super 9 LC for nice 2 hour ride, ran like a champ.
Next, will add another base gasket (3 total) and test. I have had this engine apart so many times, I can add a base gasket pretty quick, not a big deal. I did some more reading on 49ccscootproboards and appears I am going in the right direction, we will see. Cheers
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Haven't changed anything, been reading a lot on 49ccscootproboards. In "2 Stroke Performance" section, I started on last page 59, and went forward, up to page 10 or so now. Read any threads that looked interesting, including words like: set squish, tuning Dellorto, running hot, sticking, Airsal BBK, Malossi BBK, any Kymco 49cc scooter BBK install, BBK kit comparisons, 1 ring piston vs 2 ring piston, etc. Take aways: (1) my scooter is running pretty normal, probably just needs more narrow needle at this point, (2) Airsal BBK is cool, but not as forgiving as Malossi BBK, (4) common problem for engine to run lean with very little throttle and high revs (like going downhill), (6) I know when I have detonation and pre-ignition, (7) I know how to check squish, (eight) I know how to check port timing, (9) Dellorto 19mm probably best carb for what I am trying to do.
I was very temped to order Airsal BBK, probably will get one at some point. I finally decided my Malossi is probably the best BBK for me, at this time. Airsal makes several different kits with T6 being the racing kit. I would not want the T6 kit for street riding, would get Sport kit. Airsal Sport should make significant more HP over Malossi, but apparently doesn't like a lot of abuse like my Malossi has been getting. Probably would have trashed several Airsal Sport kits by now. After I get my Malossi BBK tuned better, maybe time for Airsal kit later. I really like the Airsal kit: (1) alum cylinder, maybe runs cooler? (2) single ring piston, revs higher, less friction/ maybe runs cooler too (3) comes with 2 base gaskets to adjust squish, (4) has head gasket instead of o-ring, I think head gasket is better for AC engine, and (5) low cost.
The Malossi's BBK strong points IMO: very nice quality kit, makes good HP and torque, should last long time (cast iron cylinder and 2 rings), it's very durable, can take a lot of abuse and keep going.
I got my Eurocarb order, came in no problems, can recommend this Dellorto vender for any parts you can't get from Treatland. I am waiting for more carb parts to come in from Treatland, then will try W3 needle and different nozzles. I also ordered a couple of Airsal gaskets kits that include base gaskets and head gasket. Probably won't add another base gasket until I test some more on carb, maybe add a head gasket from Airsal gasket kit to decrease compression, and may retard timing.
I think can retard timing a touch and help it run cooler and probably rev better. Trade off is less low end torque. I know how to tune the CVT, so I am not concerned about low end torque. Kymco service manual says timing not adjustable, but I bet it is. You have to take out the key, turn the flywheel the right direction (can be confusing, if go the wrong way you advance timing), torque flywheel back on in retarded position without key (probably need to lap the taper with grinding compound), and you are good to go. Cheers
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Getting way too into it for me lol my Stage 6 gears will be here Thursday the guy threw in a 20mm ported Kymco intake manifold to provide more flow from the carb. I was running pretty good when the shaft snapped 94 main and up around 50 at all times. Only time it would get warm is when it would start the hesitation then it would get up in 380s or higher at WOT. If I can cure the hesitation then maybe I can cure any overheating issues.
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Will be interesting how your 20mm intake works. I think about getting one, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Did you ever look at my pic of blower housing? Does yours have rectangular opening like mine? I might tape it off and go for a run, see it makes a difference.
I plan to get Malossi air filter, I guess you got yours from scooterpartsco? Cheers
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I got my filter from treatland I wanted the crhome cover and scooterpartsco didn't have it. as for the blower housing yeah mine has that also I don't think it affects much and atleast on mine. Like I said my overheating issues occurs with the hesitation other than then it runs cool and fast.
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I did some more reading regarding 2 cycle engines running at low throttle, like cruising/ or coasting down a hill. Overheating in these conditions is a known problem. Too much heat can build for 2 reasons: (1) engine getting very little oil with low throttle position, and (2) engine runs leaner in these conditions. I even saw explanations for why 2T engine runs hotter in a lean condition. Apparently fuel burns slower in lean condition, so hot gases can linger longer and over heat engine.
OEM 2T engines generally don't have this issue, they are detuned compared to sport or racing engines, so generally don't generate too much heat. LC engines are better able to cope with heat than AC engines. Racing engines don't cruise/ coast down hills, so don't generally have this issue. Sport tune engines ridden on the street can definitely have problems.
Apparently, you can't fix the problem with carb jetting alone, and that has been my experience. The cure?, retard timing, lower compression. It's a compromise to still have some performance gain, but be able to ride without overheating. I won't have head gaskets to install for awhile, so I may work on retarding timing today.
I will proably try more oil too, maybe a better oil? I have oil pump connected like normal (using approx 1 oz per gallon with BBK), and was adding approx 1.5 oz per gallon at fillup, so approx 2.5 oz per gallon or 50 to 1. I am going to try adding 2.5 oz per gallon at fillup, approx 3.5 oz per gallon total with oil pump. Will see if that makes any difference. Cheers
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Just zip tie your pump open like I did if you're worried about oil in low throttle and no throttle spots because the more oil you add to tank the leaner your fuel will be.
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Hello pace, thanks for checking your blower housing, eliminates that issue. Good suggestion to zip tie oil pump open. My speedo recently went out, so I can't check oil consumption, or I would try it. Will have to wait until I get speedo fixed.
I did retard timing approx 3 degrees, and went on long ride today, 100F+, was very hot, but tolerable on scooter moving through the air. Retarded timing seems to help some, but still needs some work. I lost a little low end torque, but appears didn't loose any HP once revs get up to 7000 revs or so. This thing has some really nice HP from time to time when it's happy.
Seemed to rev up better in 9000 range, seems to labor less. Still getting hot, but improving incrementally. Most of the time, ran around 350F, would cool down fast, if stopped. Cruising, would slowly creap up to over 400F, but now would actually cool down, if I ran it WOT, so I thought getting close on carb. There are only a few long runs where it gives up at the end and starts acting up with pre-ignition. Detonation a lot less now, not much an issue any more. The critical CHT reading seems to be approx 370F, when it get there I know it's going to balk/ have pre-ignition.
When treatland order comes in, can try W3 needle, may be the trick?, or 264 nozzle?, I don't know. Cheers
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They fit. . . (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/16ea4745551353fb3a55b69602ba3668.jpg)
Stock. . .(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/cc5077c51582992429010493790811c9.jpg)
Vrs Stage 6 . . .(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/e551735228cd7e9b90acebeef354bc05.jpg)
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I got in carb parts, what to try?, thinner W3 needle or larger 264 nozzle? So, !st I changed AU262 nozzle to 264 and went for long ride.
Made fairly substantial difference. Rode for nearly 4 hours, burned almost 5 gallons of gas, was fun. Never had to back-off to cool engine. High temp 397F, max revs 10080. No balking/ pre-ignition, very little detonation. Carb still not perfect, I think engine still needs a little more detuning. Had good acceleration from stop, would cruise nice, but would lean out a little, make more HP and revs would climb. Then could give it a little more throttle, would get richer again and settle back down. So, doesn't just cruise steady, have to vary throttle slightly as you go.
Carb set-up: idle jet 50, needle W9, nozzle AU264, main jet 83, throttle barrel 50. I think I will change throttle barrel to 40 and try, should make up to 1/2 throttle a little richer. When Airsal gasket kit comes in, will try head gasket to lower compression.
I have been reading Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook, by Gordon Jennings http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf (http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf). A lot is over my head, but does have some very good info, helps to understand how 2T engine works. Definitely describes issues I have been having with carb. Also, makes it pretty clear can set up engines differently for different uses, like drag racing compared to roadracing.
Roadracing set-up is what I want. I think Malossi kit comes set-up more for drag racing, that's why getting too hot when I go out for long ride, high speed cruising. Cheers
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Good info I may try that nozzle I got on the road again yesterday my CVT definitely has to be retuned for Stage 6 gears never got past 8700 rpm but needle is buried slightly after 8K. She ran warm but not hot. Will try lighter rollers but will probably also need lighter rear spring. I have been wondering if the problem at WOT is from an air leak the o ring head gasket to me seems the weak link on the Malossi BBK. That or maybe the oil pump as alot of people in 49cc has suggested doing the delete as it it a trouble spot for air leaks.
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Nice to see you rode so much 4 hours and 5 gallons how far did you ride lol?
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O-ring head gasket, I don't think mine has ever leaked, I keep reusing mine, no problems. I don't like the design, would rather have flat copper head gasket, with some different thicknesses so you change compression. 49ccscootproboards always says to check for airleaks. I think if you have airleak, idle will race, be inconsistent. I doubt you have airleak.
My WOT problem appears to have gone away. I think retarding timing may have helped.
I missed stated amount of gas burned, was more like 3 gallons, not 5. Scooter gets approx 40mpg, so maybe rode 120 miles.
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I changed throttle barrel from 50 to 40 and went for long ride. Was supposed to make richer and it did, a little too rich now. Air temps have dropped, so I guess engine running cooler from that too, max temp 362F. This ride, a little too rich maybe 1/2 to WOT, but actually ran very well. I lost some top speed, engine was happy to cruise WOT from 8800 to 9200 depending on slope, max revs 9600. There was no sweet spot, where you back off throttle and runs leaner/ better/ hotter. I found if I gave more throttle, engine made more HP.
Engine definitely seemed louder from airpod. Was always loud when giving it a lot of throttle, but now seems loud all the time. I tried a kart airbox, and would be really quite, but airbox for 100cc 2T engine is probably too large to mount on scooter. Appears side panel would hit when suspension bottomed out, not ready to cut out side plastic to make it work, before I try something else. Have been looking at Doppler Alien Eye, may order one from treatland to try. Supposed to really quite down throttle noise, but described as huge size, plus I saw some posts saying it falls apart.
Next I will lower needle one notch from 3rd notch down to 2nd down and try. Looking for a little leaner setting. I am getting close, I can tell this thing will be pretty fast if I ever get it dialed in. I am getting more confident I will eventually get it dialed in. Cheers
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Lol seems pretty fast as is bro
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Sounds like you have it pretty well dialed in.
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I dropped the needle one notch to 2nd down and went for long ride. Better still, runs awesome, a little quieter from pod airfilter, very nice throttle response, high temp 368F, max revs 9600. Still doesn't rev out like Super 9, but think would if ran a little leaner, but then maybe would get too hot?
Carb: idle jet 50, throttle barrel 40, nozzle AU264, needle W9 set 2nd notch down, main jet 83
Think I will leave carb alone for now and install Tecnigas Trek pipe today. Might help it rev up a little higher, and still run cool?
Lost track of mileage since odometer went out, but have 97.4 hours on Trailtech tach. Cheers
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Installed Tecnigas Trek pipe and went for long ride. I really like pipe, revs a lot easier, doesn't seem to labor, loud pod air filter sound went away. Maybe need to richen up carb a little, seems to run a little leaner. I fouled plug and got some pre-ignition, didn't know what was going on at 1st, engine got hot, high temp 407F. Limped home, changed plug, and now all is well.
Installed nice, end of pipe comes up higher than Next-R, almost hits right rear turn signal, but appears to clear OK. Max revs about the same, but more power full range. Maybe a little higher cruising speed, didn't loose any low end power, probably runs better low end. Pretty peppy, this thing is fast.
Next, maybe do CVT mods, don't really need for acceleration, but Malossi variator and Malossi torque driver should give more top speed. Sure wish I could find an up gear kit that works on this scooter? Cheers
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some pics of 05 People 50 2T with Tecnigas Trek pipe: sorry don't know how to delete duplicate pic?
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0546_zpsz0k2hnnu.jpg)][URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0546_zpsz0k2hnnu.jpg.html](http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0546_zpsz0k2hnnu.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0546_zpsz0k2hnnu.jpg.html)[/url]
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0542_zpshuz7zftl.jpg)][URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0542_zpshuz7zftl.jpg.html](http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0542_zpshuz7zftl.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0542_zpshuz7zftl.jpg.html)[/url]
[url(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0544_zpsfu0fqhow.jpg) (http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0544_zpsfu0fqhow.jpg.html)][/url]
I almost always use kickstarter, so added better one, same as Super 9 LC
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0549_zpsjixifvvx.jpg)][URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0549_zpsjixifvvx.jpg.html](http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/charlespou/IMG_0549_zpsjixifvvx.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/charlespou/media/IMG_0549_zpsjixifvvx.jpg.html)[/url]
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Looking good bro
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After got Trek pipe tested some, realized I was right back to running hot again, have to set carb too rich to run cool, etc. So, I went back to NextR pipe, retarded the timing a little more, and changed out 9oz Malossi rollers with 8oz Dr Pulley sliders in the Malossi variator I had already installed.
Initially, I tried to retard timing approx 2 to 3 degrees. This time I was trying to retard timing 5 degrees from OEM setting. This is how I did it.
1st pull the flywheel, you will need a flywheel puller, next remove the stator assembly just to get it out of the way and remove the magnetism that will make it hard to get an accurate result.
To retard timing, you will need to rotate the flywheel on the crankshaft counter clockwise. That will cause piston to travel up the bore a little closer to TDC when the sparkplug fires. The spark is always advanced to fire before the piston reaches TDC, to retard you are delaying the spark a littler longer so the piston is closer to TDC. Retarding ignition timing should help engine to run cooler, plus should over rev better, anyway that's what Gordon Jennings says, author "2 Stroke Tuner's Handbook".
I computed 5 degree by measuring the circumference of the flywheel, approx 13 3/8 inches, and divided 13 3/8 by 360 degrees and multiplied that result by 5 to get portion of flywheel circumference equal to 5 degrees, or approx 0.186 inches. 3/16 inch is equal to approx 0.188 inches, so I used 3/16 inch for my measurement on the outside of the flywheel.
Next, I installed a piston stop, installed the flywheel with the key, and rotated the crankshaft counter clockwise until it stopped at the piston stop. I also installed a pointer I made out of a large paper clip so I could accurately see the position of the flywheel relative to the engine case. You can tighten or loosen the piston stop a little to adjust the position of the flywheel so you can use something on the flywheel as a marker. Once I established my marker, I remove the flywheel, put it in a vice to hold it, and used a hacksaw to lightly mark the spot where the pointer lined up with the flywheel with the piston stop with the key installed. Then I measured 3/16 inch to the right of the 1st mark for the flywheel position to retard timing 5 degrees, and used the hacksaw to lightly mark this spot too.
The trick is to get it all back together without using the key to position the flywheel, because now in the 5 degrees retarded position the key will not fit. I am not sure you have too, but I lapped the crankshaft and flywheel with some valve grinding compound to mate the surfaces a little better. It should go without saying, but be sure to clean/ remove all the grinding compound, I used a rag, brake cleaner, and compressed air to clean.
So, with the crankshaft stopped against the piston stop as you turn the crankshaft counter clockwise, you install the flywheel onto the crankshaft lining up the pointer with the 5 degree mark, the one to the right of the OEM mark you made. I use an impact driver to quickly set it in position before I torque down. Note: the piston is against the piston stop and will not turn counter clockwise, you are tightening the flywheel nut clockwise, so you are not banging on the top of the piston. Be very careful using a piston stop and impact driver, or you can easily hammer top of the piston. I think piston stops are OK to torque on the flywheel nut, but just not with an impact driver. Also, do not take the CVT cover off the other side and use the variator nut to hold the crankshaft in position, you can easily twist the crankshaft, then you really have problems.
OK, after all that I took it for a long ride. I had already adjusted the carb some trying to get the Trek pipe to run better, so I figured it would be a little rich. Anyway, ran like a champ, probably the best it's ever run. High temp was 408F, but I hit that after running a couple of miles at approx 9500 revs, and went to WOT the last 1/4 mile or so before I stopped for red light. It never balked or acted up, didn't act hot or anything. Actually, was generally running so cool I am thinking of going back to OEM BR8HSA plug. Yesterday I was depressed about the Trek pipe, today I am pumped again. Cheers
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Impressed by your tenacity.
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I changed the plug back to OEM BR8HSA and went for ride. Was surprised how much it helped. Carb is obviously too rich and stumbled quite a bit with BR9HS plug, but all that went away with hotter plug. I wasn't planning on riding it for long, figured I would come back soon and take out Super 9 LC, People was running so nice I just kept going.
I normally carry 2 bottles of measured oil to add at gas station with fill-ups, but only had one, and used it to fill-up after I burned approx 1/2 tank. Then I ran low again, but was having so much fun I forgot I didn't have any oil with me. I was out of gas again and too far to make it home. I still have oil pump functioning, so I filled up with gas and rode home without the extra oil, another 6 to 8 miles or so. I did take it very easy, but seemed to be OK.
I am patiently waiting for Airsal gasket kit to come in so I can try a head gasket to lower compression. BBK is probably acceptable now, but still gets very hot from time to time. High CHT this last ride was 415F, but I wasn't worried and very controllable, just slow down a bit and temp drops quickly, 99% of the time I am flying.
Dr Pulley 8oz sliders helped, and I may try 7.5oz next. Engine has great torque at very low revs, but has a burst of HP approx 7500 and again approx 8500 revs depending. Changing from Malossi 9oz rollers to Dr Pulley 8oz sliders moved revs out of the 6000 range up into the 7000 plus range, now accelerates really nice and easy and get a nice exhaust sound instead of the air filter howling.
I know I am not fast like motorcycle, but on 50mph road with 30mph slow downs for turns, this ride is really fun. I go fast enough to want to slow for the turns, then can power through turn leaned over, fun!!! I am having fewer cars wanting to pass me, so I think I am probably going speed limit or better. Cheers
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Sounds nice my Like is doing good I haven't fiddled with it much since putting gears in I still need to go lighter on torque spring but it's runs nice and rarely need to go over 9K rpms to bury needle. I barely ever have a stumbling problem as just stay out of WOT for long periods of time if it does stumble I just drop to half throttle which seems to go as fast as WOT and only time it gets over 360 is when it starts to stumble other than that it runs perfect and cool.
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Yes, upgear is the best way to go. Glad yours is running well. Did you ever get 20mm intake installed? I ordered one too, but not here yet. Cheers
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No I'm gonna get a Malossi VL9 reedblock with carbon reeds and gaskets first than install it
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Yes, I will add that one to my list. Be sure to report how it works after you get it all installed. Cheers
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Rgr rgr I hit 63 today but sure that was on a long downhill
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wow, that's fast...
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160826/7fe991d1415923b9de7216256ed24714.jpg)
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pace, is that an app on your phone?
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Yes Ulysses but it's only for android
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I installed the 20mm intake manifold. Doesn't appear to be much difference between manifolds, but carb side does get rid of step down between 20mm carb adapter and approx 17mm OEM manifold. I guess you could port match between the carb adapter and OEM manifold, but would weaken the manifold, just seemed easier to buy another part. The opening into the reed cage appeared to be the same size on both manifolds. I wasn't expecting much change in performance, but did compute approx 38% area increase between the opening of the 17mm OEM manifold and 20mm manifold.
I put it all back together and went for test ride. Was pleasantly surprised, engine ran noticeably better, actually ran pretty awesome. I think this is the 1st time I am starting to think I want to put BBK on Super 9 LC. Up until now, Super 9 LC was always better ride compared with People 50 2T with BBK. Although Super 9 LC doesn't have the great take-off BBK has, it was generally more fun to ride, had more consistent performance, better top speed, and no concern about overheating.
I guess the step between the 17mm OEM intake manifold and the 20mm intake adapter was doing something bad. After my before and after test today, I can highly recommend it, was worth the $'s and work to get it installed. Engine still runs hot, high CHT 418F, but cooler weather seems to be helping, and 20mm intake manifold seems to be going in the right direction too. Before 20mm intake manifold, max revs seemed to be approx 9600, today with 20mm intake manifold max revs was 10,080. so significant increase. I made no adjustments to carb, and it seemed to be about the same over rich tune, but just ran better.
I finally received Airsal gasket sets today, ordered 2 gaskets sets and one was correct, the other wrong, bummer. Anyway, since still running hot and carb is still tuned too rich to really rev out like it should, I will test lowering compression by installing an extra head gasket. Probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to it, but will report back test results after I make the change. Cheers
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Hey CHaz you still alive bro? Ain't seen no posts for a bit hows she running?
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Hello pace, thanks for interest, haven't got anything to report, haven't done anything else to it yet, have some plans, will post when I do something. Cheers
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It's been awhile, but road P50 today for 1st time since 9-2-16. I have been riding S9 a lot and doing other stuff, so haven't done anything different with the P50. Weather is cooler, and made big difference in CHT, high was 370f, max rpms 10020. Ran great, made me want to do BBK on S9 for sure.
Actually, took S9 out yesterday and was very windy, was really slowing down speed running into the wind, was thinking time to do BBK on S9, then rode P50 and was more encouragement to do BBK on S9.
Maybe the end of the road for P50 BBK project. I have 4 scooters and something has to go. Will probably put P50 back to OEM and put up for sale. I really love the P50, but S9 LC seems like better scooter for many reasons.
If/ when I do BBK on S9 LC I will start another thread under Super 9. Cheers
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Can always send the P50 out here to NC for. . . .testing purposes. . .lol you did alot to it to get the BBK to perform how you wanted it to and I've not tried any of those yet. Mines running ok not great. Had to order another silencer for the NextR exhaust the other had ate itself up over the course of 10K miles and was obnoxiously loud. I think I need a new variator I'm having issues to get over 8800K rpm and feel the variator is sticking on bushing.
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hello pace, thanks for kind words, was a lot of fun, may still mess with it, is running great in cooler weather, just have a couple more adjustments to try... Cheers