KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: blackhawkfan on October 19, 2014, 01:09:19 AM
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Do scooter engines burn oil over time? I had done my oil change at 600 miles and am now at 1200. When I did the change, the oil on the dipstick covered the entire crossmarked area; now it shows only halfway up the stick. I know it is not leaking when parked as there is no oil stain below the scoot. Does it just evaporate? I am planning on doing another oil change as part of the storage prep in a few weeks but wonder if I should do it now since the oil level is clearly decreasing. Is this normal?
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The tolerances in these engines aren't that tight so some oil usage is normal. Make a habit of checking your oil once or twice a month. Oil usage will greatly increase the harder you ride it.
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I have a Like 200i, bought new in February. Have changed oil at 200, 400, 600, and 1,600 miles, and have seen no oil loss. Only curious thing is that I can't get more than 23 oz into the engine when I change it (even after dropping the screen). Admittedly, I rarely drive it faster than 40 mph. So, maybe if I ran it harder and longer, there'd be some oil consumption.
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That's only .68L (these are Asian bikes, Keepin it real with the metric) that's really odd. You when t your bike up fully before change? Shake the bike side by side? Drain the oil out of the plug and screen?
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The tolerances in these engines aren't that tight so some oil usage is normal. Make a habit of checking your oil once or twice a month. Oil usage will greatly increase the harder you ride it.
I will start checking mine.
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Make sure you wait and let the oil drain down a little after running, and make sure the scoot is level (not on the side kickstand) when you check the oil level. I've got a GTI300, 3000 miles, 5 oil changes, and no oil loss
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Make sure you wait and let the oil drain down a little after running, and make sure the scoot is level (not on the side kickstand) when you check the oil level. I've got a GTI300, 3000 miles, 5 oil changes, and no oil loss
The 300cc is made in Taiwan to MUCH higher spec than the Chinese 50cc Kymco engines.
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I have a Like 200i, bought new in February. Have changed oil at 200, 400, 600, and 1,600 miles, and have seen no oil loss. Only curious thing is that I can't get more than 23 oz into the engine when I change it (even after dropping the screen). Admittedly, I rarely drive it faster than 40 mph. So, maybe if I ran it harder and longer, there'd be some oil consumption.
Bernie, I LIKE the way you're doing your oil changes!
I settled in at right around 600-700 mile changes....and the last I saw of my LIKE200i it was using no oil either. Less than a Qt......aircooled....it's working hard for us. Treat it nice to fresh oil.
You are the only (non-50cc) guy here riding like me. 40mph or less.
Stig
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Stig's bikes ride alone. He has to chase them to take the picts. The ONLY "Lone Wolf" bikes known in the US.
I would have shot them ages ago. Kudos to Stig for putting up w/ them.
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Do scooter engines burn oil over time? I had done my oil change at 600 miles and am now at 1200. When I did the change, the oil on the dipstick covered the entire crossmarked area; now it shows only halfway up the stick. I know it is not leaking when parked as there is no oil stain below the scoot. Does it just evaporate? I am planning on doing another oil change as part of the storage prep in a few weeks but wonder if I should do it now since the oil level is clearly decreasing. Is this normal?
when you check the oil after a fill up, do you run the motor for a few min. then check the oil,. you might of had a air bubble
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I check it once a week before I start the scoot...would an air bubble be a possibility under those conditions?
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No
I check it once a week before I start the scoot...would an air bubble be a possibility under those conditions?
No BlackHawk. Only when you first fill it. Sometimes the filter will trap air at first but not after a 10-15 second ride.
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I've got almost 9000 miles on my scoot, and it burns no oil at all. I think if you give the engine an easy break-in, your rings don't seal as well, and you suck some oil up the cylinder walls and burn it.
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If you DON'T give the engine an easy break in...
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If you DON'T give the engine an easy break in...
Um, no.
Easy break in: limiting throttle opening for X miles, driving it easily.
Hard break in: maximizing cylinder pressure. Riding it like you stole it.
Think of the difference between throttle-blipping "zing zing zing" and high-gear pulling from a low speed "whaaaaaa". That "whaaaaa" is what a hard break-in is about... that and snapping your throttle closed at high speeds instead of "throttling back".
An easy break-in means your rings don't get worn in properly, so they don't seal as well. You get more blow-by, less compression, higher oil consumption, and less power.
A hard break-in will push your rings against the cylinder wall harder, wear them to a better profile so they seal better, giving you more compression, less blow-by, less oil consumption, a cleaner combustion chamber, and longer engine life.
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Uh oh hard break in vs soft argument time! The key to hard break in its proper heat cycling. Ride hard for ten minutes then shut it down and let completely cool down then repeat. I find myself just breaking in slowly tho idk why never feels right to be so hard on a new engine.
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I was hard on this engine from the get-go... I used the hard break-in procedure from:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
At least, as close as one can come with an engine that can't really be pulled hard in a high gear because it's got an automatic transmission. But I opened it up from mile 1, and of course kept varying engine speed.
What I did was to limit idling to a short time, and at stop lights, when the light turned green, I'd nail it until I hit my cruising speed, then vary engine speed after that. I took it on the freeway at night (when there was almost no traffic) for high speed runs, would get it up to speed, then snap the throttle closed and let it coast the engine as it slowed down, then when it was going slow, nail it again up to maximum speed. I changed the engine oil, oil filter and gear oil at 50 miles, 100 miles, 200 miles, 400 miles, 800 miles, and every 600 miles after that, switching to synthetic at 1392.6 miles (the 1400 mile service interval).
Now, the engine's got so much compression I can hit the rev limiter very easily (and it's not even at WOT), and it accelerates like it was launched out of a cannon (despite using heavier than normal weights in the variator). I'm having 7.33:1 rear gears made by Jan Vos from Belgium to replace the OEM 8.48:1 gears, so I can cruise at 65 MPH at 6500 RPM. That should give me a top speed of about 92 MPH. Pretty sure it'll hit that, too... it's got more engine than it's got gears right now.
Not to mention that it burns no oil.
Once I put in the Total Seal gapless rings to decrease ring blowby to ~2%, it'll have a bit more oomph. The ceramic coating (which will be done by Swain Tech Coatings) on the cylinder head, valves and piston face will put more heat toward motive power. The variable coolant temperature (215 F at low speed cruising, 195 F at WOT) that will be made possible by the microcontroller-controlled electric coolant pumps and fans (2 each) will increase fuel efficiency a bit for in-town riding. The Microsquirt ECU will allow me to lean the air:fuel ratio, while also controlling a water injector which will provide just enough water (at a temperature just below its latent heat of vaporization, heated by the exhaust) to increase cylinder pressure and knock down NOx creation. The microwave-frequency corona discharge ignition I'll have built once my electronics guy is done with the coolant pump controller, combined with the increased engine temperature, lean burn and ceramic coatings will allow me to retard timing, which means the engine doesn't have to work against that ~20 degrees BTDC where the mixture is ignited and expanding while the piston is still moving up. The roller lifters I'm having fabricated by Baisley Hi-Performance will allow me to use a cam ground such that it allows faster valve lift, longer open duration, and faster valve close than a flat tappet can do. The custom expansionary exhaust primary will reflect a negative pressure pulse back toward the cylinder just before the exhaust valve closes at the engine's torque peak RPM, while the new cam grind will lock that partial vacuum in the cylinder until the intake valve opens a couple degrees later, which helps the engine to breathe without requiring valve overlap.
I'm also trying to convince a toroidal transmission manufacturer to create a line of their transmissions for retrofit to scooters... 98% efficiency vs. the ~75% efficiency of the OEM CVT, infinitely variable all the way down to "geared neutral" and all the way up to way higher gearing than our engines could ever use unless you wanted to scream down a long hill at 120 MPH.
I also saw an IHI turbocharger specifically designed for 150 to 300 CC engines, and it's only $250... but that might be taking things a bit too far. :)
I'm waiting on a huge parts order I put in today... once that's delivered, then the fun begins.
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I've got almost 9000 miles on my scoot, and it burns no oil at all. I think if you give the engine an easy break-in, your rings don't seal as well, and you suck some oil up the cylinder walls and burn it.
[ I have 33,311 miles on my 300i downtown, 3,000 km. between oil changes, break in was by moto tune USA. wot. for 27 miles, up and down a hill ,. now,. It does not burn oil and runs like a new scooter , and the oil at change is light brown just off golden,. ;
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Here is the ONLY way to solve what is best.
Two identical engines... One hard break in, and one soft.
200 miles, and pull the pistons. The improperly set piston will show 'Blow by" the properly set piston will not.
Copy/pasted from Continental Motors:
When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber. B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.
B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will prevent any further seating of the piston rings. If glazing is allowed to happen break in will never occur. We must achieve a happy medium where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. If glazing should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder, re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process over again.
Entire article:
http://tcmlink.com/fiddefault.aspx?cgroup=MATTITUCK&cpagename=BREAKIN (http://tcmlink.com/fiddefault.aspx?cgroup=MATTITUCK&cpagename=BREAKIN)
I've done my own side by side, and just happen to agree w/ them.
I've said this before. I have melted enough pistons to build a bridge.
I know this wont happen but I would LOVE to see a pict of your piston Yager. I'll show you mine if you show me yours! :-*
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I know this wont happen but I would LOVE to see a pict of your piston Yager. I'll show you mine if you show me yours!
Actually, it will happen, eventually. Got a new piston on order that'll be sent to Swain Tech Coatings for ceramic heat shield coating, then I'll order the right Total Seal rings for it, then put it in, so the old piston will be available for photo.
It'll be interesting to see a side-by-side of yours and mine, for comparison. How many miles do you currently have on yours?
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COOL O!!!
I have 5-6 in the shed w/ all sorts of miles.
The ones that I KNOW were rode hard from day 1 all have excessive signs of blow by. The ones that were babied all look pretty good.
Mostly they are here because of BBK installs, and I kept the old kits for parts.
I'll have to dust off my old Samsung camera, cause I went back in time to a phone w/ no camera. I'll check it out tonight or in the morning...
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Heh, we're similar in that regard... my phone is an 8 year old Nokia E62. No camera, no WiFi, no touch screen.
Hell, it barely does text messaging. But it's got a magnesium case that's been dropped from as far as 14 feet with no damage (when I was working in the overhead on a fan, the belt clip got twisted as I contorted to get to the grease zerks on the fan shaft, and it fell. Bounced off a tank below, skidded across the floor. No damage.). And it's got a battery that only needs charging once a week in normal use.
It started out locked to Cingular's network, which became AT&T. I then unlocked the phone, and it's now on T-Mobile.
I'll keep using it until it's either no longer compatible with the phone network, or the circuitry fails.
When my wife was pushing hard for a new phone, she used as one of her excuses that I could get a new phone, too. She mentioned that my battery was going bad, so perhaps it was time to get a new phone. I researched it... $400 for a new phone or $17 for a new battery.
The choice was easy.
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I've been thru 4 phones this year. Some fall, some were eaten by the dogs, and some just break in my pocket.
I went back to a twenty dollar flip but haven't used it in about 3-4 months... Zombie sh**!
I pulled a piston from my 50mm GY 6 engine, but I still can't take a Pict. The batteries in my camera leaked all their go juice.
I have a bud stopping by tomorrow so I'll see if we can use his phone...
Break-in w/ approx 200 miles of less than 1/2 throttle, and maybe 50 more of short term WOT bursts.
After that it has been WOT daily for almost 4 years, 20 miles a day, perhaps 340 days a year.
The blow by is approx 2-3mm all around the bottom ring. Nothing further down than that.
I've had a real hard time starting the bike lately, and thought it might have been a bad ring or worn piston so I replaced it w/ a new 6 dollar set. I'm actually putting that used piston into another 50mm kit w/ fresh rings sometime this week, if I find the time/ambition.
I'll do my best to try to post up the Picts.
I also have a piston from an OEM GY 6 where the blow by is 3/4's the way down the skirt form a fella that bought the China scoot new last year before Xmas. I swapped that set out in July or August.
He never thought about break-in... Just rode it. His commute was approx 7 miles each way on a 55 mph road, and 3-4 mies on 35 mph roads. 5-6 days a week. so WOT for 7, and 3/4 maybe for the rest... Then back again.
The cylinder was glazed, and the rings shot.
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My thinking has always been -- If the hard break-in is best.....why do the manufacturers advise "the break-in" procedures that almost always specified specific mileage and rpm's?
I'm no engineer....so I figure that many engines are made well enough to survive even the abuse, when new, that some owners put them through.
Kudos go to the engineers and machinists.....not those owners, IMHO.
STIG (broke in both scoots very carefully, per the manuals......the oil doesn't stay in either of them long enough to leak - or burn away!)
PS: Conspiracy theorists must assume Toyota, Scion, VW, KYMCO and HONDA get a kick in their collective trousers by lying to us. Yes?
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Have you ever noticed they all use sigilism in their advertising?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil_%28magic%29
There's more to it than meets the eye! (there's a pun in there for those that know...)
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Forgot... I used to break-in hard. I have biult race engines for years, and there is no time for soft break-in. Run the turds out of it, and rebuild.
It's all in the specs. A well crafted engine will run great no matter what you do to it. Sloppy engines are exactly that.
The OEM guys recommend soft break-in to avoid variances in tolerance issues. That's really the bottom line.