KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: matthew_addison on September 28, 2012, 09:15:23 PM
-
Hi all I have a ag50 2009,
Right so here we go, my ag starts and runs fine with decent amounts of throttle but as soon as i let go of the throttle to slow down for junctions roundabouts etc it just looses all power and dies and i then have to leave it for about 10mins to wait to get it started but even after 50 kickstarts it will idle(very high) and then as soon as i touch the throttle it dies again and i'm back to square one :( its becoming ridiculous now and very dangerous, the only way it will move at 10mph after it dies is if i give it tiny short bursts of throttle too much and it just cuts out. I changed oil, fuel filter, spark plug and gear oil, new carb(old one was full of white gunky crap) also checked and changed valve clearance about 1000km ago or so and it worked fine for months then just developed this problem, help please!!!
-
ohh also it makes a clicking noise at 3/4 to full throttle have no idea what it is but doesn't sound too good does it much worse when on main stand and giving it some! i have not yet derestricted it maybe in the near future when it works properly again :)
-
wouldnt that be the sign of an air leak?
check all the tubes, manifolds and stuff like that. i take it you set the valve clearence to .04mm? (might wanna re-check)
also run a compression test aswell to rule out anything else, i know a compression test wont tell you whats wrong but it will give you a starting base to work from. but i would check all the lines for leaks because i think that may explain the high rpm and the stalling.
hope you get it sorted mate
gd luck :)
-
ahh it could be not sure, it never has had a jubilee clip on the air filter hose connecting to carb just pushed in! seems strange it never had one but has been running fine before so maybe this could be the cause of the problem but i doubt it, would an oil leak be anything to do with it? it has been leaking since i rebuilt the engine after crashing and snapping the crank case in half :( ouch, but the leak seems to have got less than it was before it has the correct oil level though, erm it was a mechanic who set them and i gave him the ag50 maintenance book with all valve clearings etc. in so it would of been to what it says in there, i dont have a compression gauge. it seems to be most of the time that it is idling very high it will actually go 7mph with no throttle just on choke is this bad?
-
when i am giving it throttle it seems to bog down before it dies its like the engines flooding itself when its not done that as i would have to leave it for hours to drain properly extremely confused to what it could be ???
-
Blocked/dirty fuel filter or carb jet?
Incorrectly set up carb?
-
i had the carb bowl off other week and jets and carb are shiny and clean inside and this was after the problem and also fuel filter is very clean was only changed a few months ago, i tried running it with no air filter but still had the same problem brilliant acceleration but thats it :/ all pipes from fuel tank to the valve/diaphragm under the footplate seem to be in good condition with no cracks etc. same with the manifold i checked this and its fine no cracks or marks on any of it really confusing what it could be ???
-
I will try to get a video of the problem tomorrow(as it is 23:40) permitting the weather here in the uk is decent then that might help diagnose the problem but the strange thing is it seemed to have this problem for 2 weeks or so then it ran fine for 3 weeks and now the same problem has come back :( seem to be going in circles!
-
check and make sure the manifold bolds are tight and all the hoses in front of the carb and behind.
check to see if your throtle cable is hooked up right.
-
you might also wanna check the jet size, you said you brought a new carb as the last one was f***ed when i brought another carb for mine it had a #76 jet in it!?!?! but im running an open air filter so i bumped mine upto #96. if you take the carb apart again and check on the side of the main jet for a number. if you still have your old jet from the other carb try putting that one back in and see what happens. ah also..(im just stabbing in the dark here) but when you swapped the carb did you take the inlet manifold off, if so did you remember to put the little rubber 'O' ring back into the spacer? dont know if that would make much diffrence but i just thought of it and thought i would throw it out there if you know what im saying. the air/fuel mix screw on the side of the carb will probably need to be looked at too.
-
what size carb did you get 18-19-20 mm that makes a dif also.and also check the plug cap I got a new plug befor and had to reset the cap.
-
Erm not sure what size the jet or the carb is as I went to a second hand garage and got it from there its a slightly different carb to the original kymco one I think it was from a pulse 50?! That's what was wrote on the top. Nope don't have the old carb or jets that went in the bin months ago! Hmm could be the plug I cleaned it a few weeks back with a wire brush but it never made any difference to it. Will check all manifold pipes the lot later on when I have some spare time. And if it stops working again I will try get a video of the sound it makes after, just one question how the Frigg do I upload videos I'm guessing I just copy and paste the YouTube URL?
Thanks for all the help keep up the good work :)
-
Couldit be the auto choke sticking on this could be causing it to cut out once the engine is hot and then making it hard to start why still hot with the choke on and also why reving high when you do get it started....
-
What was causing the "white gunky stuff" in the old carb?
It sounds like prob it is a fuel/jets/carb problem to me.
Check the inlet manifold isnt burst, the thick black angled tube that goes from the carb to the engine, take it off and lool for cracks or splits underneath, especially where the clamp goes round at the carb end.
-
Did you say you dont have the old carb. anytime you get new parts hang on to the old ones for a while.ya never know what you may need from it.I also have a dif carb in my scoot but I had to put a bigger jet in it to help it a long.
-
It could be the choke it does seem to be on quite a lot I guess it will be a new choke then? Will take it all apart today and check everything and I'm not sure what it was it just appeared there but since I changed fuel filter and carb it hasn't come back, I would of kept it but the guy threw it straight in the bin said I definitely don't need that cr*p :-\
-
starte a bin for your self ya just never know what you might need.Even when I take my scoots in to get fixed I ask for all the parts back.You may have been able to use the jets from the old one .
-
ive got a box full of parts..even the old cylinder, piston and head aswell as my old carb, airbox my old CDi unit, variator, clutch and bell. you never know if you might need em again.
btw where in england are you?
-
@matthew_addison : have you checked if the carb slide was down all the way when the engine stopped ?
I've had exactly the same symptoms with bogging down every now and then... Turned out that the slide was sticking sometimes because of a few grains of sand that found their way into the venturi somehow....
And since this slide is supposed to control the mixture by lowering the jet needle at lower rpms, the engine just bogs down or even drowns when you open the throttle at those moments...
-
Ahh I doubt I will be able to get it back now. I have fully stripped down the Ped and can see nothing wrong manifold is fine pipes and wires are all fine so I have no idea what it is I got it going but decided against taking it for a ride as it has been throwing it down! Typical English weather I guess @whitenight I'm about 30 miles away from york YO43 area a town called market weighton @ mono this is exactly what it seems to be doing it just boggs down and takes so much effort to get it started again tried changing plug don't think it made any difference was still bogging down when I was even touching the throttle.
-
had the same problem before i changed my carb over... would bog down then eventually cut out then i would have to spend ages getting her going again... found out it was the slide that wasnt moving thus not allowing fuel into the engine and it cutting it out, since found out it was the diaphram failing to cause a vacuum and allowing the slide to move. but when i changed the carb over for a new one she was fine. did have to use my old jet from the f**k carb because the new one had a #76 (hence why you should keep old parts)
i live in Dereham, Norfolk..NR19 area :D
-
carb jets for the uk look hear......http://www.pedparts.co.uk/product/464/dellorto-jets-box--5mm (http://www.pedparts.co.uk/product/464/dellorto-jets-box--5mm)
the last box set i ordered came in less than 18 hours they do a range...75-98....100-122
if you buy the 75- 98 set you will have the jets ready when you decid to go for an open air filter ;)
-
So should I start by stripping the carb and cleaning it all diaphragm to see if this helps then if not it will be a new carb I guess :-\ another £35 gahh! That's quite far away haha basically the other side of the UK!
-
when i first got my agility i striped the carb and spreyed it with carb cleaner to to clean any crap just in case. put it back together then spraid more carb cleaner into the air intake when running. never had a problem. but i would check that jet, check its a 82 jet. see if the problem goes away then. if not then look into other things.
-
Have you thought about throwing some redex in there nothing to lose and im sure others no here will tell you i swear by the stuff the amount of times its bailed me out of running and starting problems, you can get a bottle for about £4 from most supermarkets i add 80ml to 100ml to a full tank, after i have ran the tank down its always improved the running and starting of all my scoots over the years.....
-
i used a bottle of Redex in the Suzuki intruder, i forgot to drain the 3 year old petrol out of the tank. so i topped her up with fresh petrol and a bottle of redex so i knew that the old petrol wasnt gonna gunk up the fuel system, shes been running fine since.
-
Yeah I know the amazing stuff after standing it for a while and after finding that white gunk I put a bottle of redex in at the time never bothered to buy anymore though that's my next thing to try then, the strange thing is it worked fine again yesterday! Didn't bog down or cut out once??? Just has its bad days I guess like us all lol, if that doesn't sort it then the carb will be coming apart and sprayed weather it likes it or not!!
-
Just check & clean the carb slide and the inside of the carb venturi and airfilter hose - no need for expensive high-tech cleaning agents, just get the dust out of there...
With all the information you've given so far, I'm pretty sure that you shouldn't mess around with any other part of your carb until you've tried this...
Especially since you've been driving with an unclamped airfilter hose, I think there's just a few grains of sand in the airhose and venturi, which will keep the slide from sliding smoothly at random moments - and no fuel additive is going to help with that...
-
[Especially since you've been driving with an unclamped airfilter hose, I think there's just a few grains of sand in the airhose and venturi, which will keep the slide from sliding smoothly at random moments - and no fuel additive is going to help with that...
[/quote X2 theres your answear..........kymcos are very picky scoots go threw and make sure everything is tight. and clean.
-
Ok I will do that tomorrow just spray it with WD40? im guessing, another question which is the carb slide is it the needle what is attached to the diaphragm? yeah everything was tight apart from the air hose on the carb its been running like that since new i guess well the last 2 years ive had it thats how its been :o so maybe its just got a bit hot expanded more and let some dust in?
-
oh and also what is an "open air filter"? im guessing its some kind of mod? is it just basically taking the standard air filter and box off and replacing it with an aftermarket filter?
-
WD40 ? No way !! Never ever lubricate anything inside a carb !
The slide is the piston like thing that holds the needle and has the diaphragm and a weak spring on top, it should slide up and down smoothly in the carb housing, with almost no play or friction...
Just take the top lid off the carb so you can get the slide out, and disassemble the air hose and airbox completely, so you can make the whole passage from air filter to intake manifold completely dust free. And I mean _DUST FREE_ 8)
Also, I advise you not to mess around with open air filters until you understand how your Agility works and you've been able to keep it running the way it should be for some time... Open air filters are one of the many possible ways to make a beginner screw up his engine or its reliability real good...
-
my bad.... mono is right.... i just ment that buying a set will come in handy one day..... didnt meen to change filter now.... as mono said get it running first and a good understanding of the a50 in a year or so you will prob want to make some mods....thats when they come in handy.. as will cost you £3.00 now for 1 82 jet... costs £10.00 for ten jets.
-
Stupid question I know but what do I use to clean all air filter carb etc? A can of compressed air? Or just a damp lint free cloth?
-
forced air is good for the filter. And for the carb get a can of carb cleaner its a spray bottle. Use that on the inside and outside of the carb. If you take the jets out watch for all little parts that might fall out. the jets need to go back in nice and tight but dont over tighten.
-
I've been cleaning carbs and air hoses all my life with nothing else than a piece of cloth, naphta (white spirit ?), and the most important : compressed air...
For the air filter itself you should only use compressed air...
An air compressor is a very useful tool in our trade, I certainly wouldn't like to do without...
A can of compressed air is a workable compromise if you're on a tight budget... I'm even pretty sure that a can of compressed air would be a better investment than a can of carb cleaner.
-
Okay thanks guys I shall have a go at that on the weekend :) oh yeah there are so many parts to the carb as I know from before just gotta be super careful.
-
Thats why i would try redex first saves getting your hands dirty and if you are not to sure what you are doing saves taking the risk of making things worse, plus even if it does not solve your problem the redex will not have been wasted as it also helps clean inside the cylinder and the valves and there steats etc......
-
No, Redex won't clean his slide.
It's better to tackle problems by really finding out what's going on right away and learning how to fix things the right way - instead of trying the "snake oil / voodoo" approach first and hope that you've fixed it... Please stop leading people in senseless directions.
-
Just can't find a damn can of compressed air I guess I will have to strip the carb fully and clean it with white spirit a job for the weekend I think
-
Take your time and work in a clean environment...
I once used a bicycle tyre pump (with the valve clip removed from the hose) to blow through all passages and jets of a carb - a very tricky way, since you're short of at least one hand (it's easy to launch small parts with compressed air and lose them, especially when you have to divide your attention between a pump and a small part ;D ) but it did the job...
-
So a tyre compressor with a football needle would work just the same then? already got one kicking around saves spending more money :) and then clear hoses and fuel filter with white spirit.
-
A tyre compressor with a football needle might just work indeed, especially for small passages and in small bursts...
What I always do is to soak everything in white spirit first, so that contaminations stay solved and floating instead of drying solid. Dirt that stays solid gets to meet one of my old toothbrushes, and only when all dirt looks solved or floating instead of solid and sticking, I blow the white spirit including dirt away with compressed air...
Rinse and repeat, just to make sure...
Also clean the inside of your airhose and airbox with a cloth and compressed air, since you've been driving without the clamp on the hose, I expect some sand and dust to stick around there, and that's probably one of the biggest enemies of a CV carb like ours...
-
or even cheaper...get a foot pump, attach a football needle....aim...annnnnnd press quick and hard on the pump...wooooosh one cheap air gun.
-
They sell cans of compressed air at any office supply place.
-
I just use carburetor spray/cleaner..one step....no soaking and blowing...
-
Yeah, that's the way - the dirt solves, stays in your carb, the solvent quickly vapourizes, and the dirt will stay there until the next time you take the carb apart... ;D
(Not to mention that it doesn't have any effect on solid stuff that doesn't solve, like sand and rust particles...)
-
Yeah, that's the way - the dirt solves, stays in your carb, the solvent quickly vapourizes, and the dirt will stay there until the next time you take the carb apart... ;D
(Not to mention that it doesn't have any effect on solid stuff that doesn't solve, like sand and rust particles...)
Noooo... not that way, I meant, I disassemble the carb, spray each part with carb clean, and done... no more soaking and waiting and blowing.... ;)
If some soaking is needed, I use gasoline...
-
I didn't say anything about waiting.... 8)
I meant "to soak" as in "make soaking wet", not as in "soak overnight"...
-
oh... :D
-
Right so I've stripped the carb cleaned it all with white spirit soaked the jets in it for about 10mins there was a tiny bit of dirt barely any from the carb, also cleaned air filter box and air filter, 20 kicks later we have life :) but it seems to be still almost dieing when I touch the throttle not been for a ride yet will do later, the jet is a 79 I guess that's the right one? If this hasn't sorted it I'm unplugging the choke and will see if that's the culprit.
-
#79!!! jeez you need a bigger jet in there man, your running MEGA lean. you need a #82/84 at least to get her running properly.
-
#79!!! jeez you need a bigger jet in there man, your running MEGA lean. you need a #82/84 at least to get her running properly.
WK will u check ur emails bro, i emailed you yest bout something. Cheers.
-
Its dead again argh took it for a ride was working for 15mins then that was it can't seem to get it going :( it seemed to be fine before as its had that carb in since Jan
-
The fact its fine at 1st tends me to think its either a fuel shortage problem due to the bowl being empty, a blockage in the fuel line or filter or jets or an air blockage somewhere. Or an electrical fault or something is overheating and/or somethings warping?
-
I wish it was simple as a blocked pipe I've had the fuel pipes air pipes filter and carb apart and cleaned out the full lot whilst getting high on white spirit but done a good job of it nonetheless, and plenty of petrol, I hope its nothing electrical that will be a twat to find :/ doesn't seem to be overheating although it has smelt of a sort of melting/ burning rubber smell but it has always done it so maybe this could be something? But when it has been running I never seem to be able to tell where it is coming from???
-
well if you been running 79 jet change that to 81or 82. se if that makes it better. if fuel bole empty will take a bit to fill and get started.
-
Ahh maybe that's it did take a good 5 mins for the bowl to fill enough to start it so it must be an undersized jet, surprised that its only recently stopped working and not straight away
-
may not be the case..... but just thought.... if it was running lean, after a wile the engine would get hot. maybe even warp the piston or rings. that could cause more friction. this in turn may make the engine harder to turn over. this may just be rantings by a fool though.
id try a new jet. just remember it will take a wile to fill, befor it turns over. if it works i would then do a plug chop on a new plug of corse. to see how the engine is running.
-
I didn't say anything about waiting.... 8)
I meant "to soak" as in "make soaking wet", not as in "soak overnight"...
Thats what she said...........lol :D
-
dirty blue... dirty... go stand in the corner and think about what you said... ;D
-
A plug chop ??? I have replaced it recently the old one looked quite black and around the washer seemed to be oil so it could be burning oil, my mate has noticed a bit of smoke when riding behind me I hope its not the piston rings I really don't fancy stripping engine again :/ I guess it could be the ht lead? But it has no signs of wear :-\
-
forget the plug chop..... just change the jet to 82.... sounds like th has been running lean for a while and damage has been done... id just change the jet to 82 and run for a wile.....
by plug chop i meen put fresh plug in run the engine on full throttle for 15 min or so. a good run with as little stops as possable.. then take the plug out. cut the plug in half. it will tell you alot about how the engine is running. but id leave all that just change the jet and see if that works. if it does just run the bike
-
Forget about plug chops when your gasoline contains ethanol... It's not completely obvious yet what's happening, but I've seen some weird results, and I'm not the only one...
Furthermore, doing a plug chop is only useful when you do it exactly right - most people forget things like warming up the engine with an old plug and changing it for the new one only for the test run....
@matthew : If I were you, I would stick with the standard setup of an 82 main jet, standard airbox with a clean filter, all clamps and hoses properly fixed the way they should be, and everything checked for cracks and other leaks - doing a plug chop shouldn't be necessary at all then... If it still won't run correctly that way, there's something else going on...
Edit : this is almost the same as skippy said... I think it's past bedtime for me ;D
-
Everything is standard its even still got the original rollers in :O and its at 12700km hmm maybe time for some new ones, I will be ordering a 82 jet and find a jubilee clip from somewhere for the air filter hose and hopefully that will sort it, could it be the valves? As they get warm they expand too much and kill the engine? Just guessing but it could be a possibility
-
So you still didn't have a clip on the airfilter hose all this time ?
You've been wasting your time then....
(and also a little tiny bit of ours ;D)
-
mat i would try the jet and the hoze clip. that should work. only do those things nothing els. if you do lots of things together you will not know which is wrong. 1 baby step at a time.
-
What no clip..................A motor runns better when its all put together.
-
In the 2 years I've had it there's never been a clip :-\ yeah I'm gonna get them found and bought see if it sorts it if not then I don't know what!
-
im sure when you put a clip on the hose and change the jet then it will run.... sounds like damage been done so dont expect miricals. but it should run. then just enjoy it.
-
yep then it will come a time that you have to pull apart the engine because the piston and rings have been fried from running mega lean...all in good time. its easy enough to do anyway, me and my fiancee did a complete engine rebuild in 2 hrs 55 mins and that was doing it for the first time. if you do think about rebuilding you will need:-
piston and rings
valve oil seals (check the valves and seats for damage-replace if nessersary) which will mean:-
new cylinder head (one with the valves pre-fitted)
check the cylinder wall for scorch marks and scoring but if you need to replace the piston and rings then you will need a new cylinder to seat the new rings or have the old one re-honed.
and thats about it i think.
slap it together start her up and let her get warm..shut her off..re-torque bolts..start her up again and rag her at WOT to bed the rings in then for the run in just take it easy and slowly over 500 or so miles increase the speed you go at (but if your still restricted that wont apply)
-
You call that a complete engine rebuild ? ;D
Anyway, don't scare the newbie !!
There's probably no damage to his engine at all, since it has been running fine for two years, with the airhose obviously tight enough to make it work without a clip....
It's only recenly that his luck has run out and the airhose started leaking sometimes, and even that's just an assumption on our part. It might as well be something different... And if it's indeed the airhose that was leaking every now and then.... An engine isn't instantly damaged by a few grains of sand, or from running lean for a few moments at low power and low rpms...
-
I hope I don't have to do another rebuild I've had it all fully apart before to nothing when replacing crank case really don't want to do anything like that again was a twat, gonna put new jet abs clip on the hose if it works without dieing then its time to get rid :P no longer my problem haha ;)
-
No way !!
If it works without dying, you've fixed it - and you should enjoy driving it...
Why did you have to replace the crankcase BTW ?
-
When I fell off I snapped it in half along with the Kickstart case at 10mph!
-
sh** thats quite bad. i still dont know how people manage to fall off the agilitys??
-
sh** thats quite bad. i still dont know how people manage to fall off the agilitys??
Just hit the front brakes to hard on a wet road and see if you can hold it up.
-
I went way to fast round a corner on a wet greasy road with a lot of road camber and just slid off :(
-
i still dont know how people manage to fall off the agilitys??
Not understanding how and why you could fall off is a beginners thing ;D
You'll find out various ways yourself if you keep driving for years...
-
Yeah it was just one of those moments when in a rush to get home and totally misjudged the corner even though I've been round it hundreds of times but it just caught me that once and BANG! poorly Ped haha, will order a new jet on weds and a jubilee clip and hopefully she will work again, if not I'm just gonna disconnect the choke see if its that...
-
Ouch... some corners are mean Evil Bastards.. They're just waiting for this one day you're not paying full attention, and then they strike...
if not I'm just gonna disconnect the choke see if its that...
If you disconnect the choke, it will be "always on" instead of "always off"...
(The same happens when the wiring or the choke itself is broken...)
The only way to test the choke is to take it out of the carb, connect it to a battery, and see if it extends the needle after a while...
-
Yup they sure are, Ahh I see so if I connected it directly to the main batt it should extend the needle?
-
Not understanding how and why you could fall off is a beginners thing ;D
You'll find out various ways yourself if you keep driving for years...
i meant it as i see loads of bashed up agilitys and a hell of alot of ones that have been written off. i've rode mine for 2 1/2 years now and she dosnt have a scratch on her.
-
Ahh I see so if I connected it directly to the main batt it should extend the needle?
Yes, it should get warm and extend the needle some 4..5 millimeters or so. It will take some time though, and it works very slowly. When in doubt, just measure the length before and after...
Also, grab a copy of the service manual somewhere (search the interweb for "kymco agility service manual") it's extremely useful !
i meant it as i see loads of bashed up agilitys and a hell of alot of ones that have been written off. i've rode mine for 2 1/2 years now and she dosnt have a scratch on her.
I know you meant that ;D
-
I've finally replaced the jet and got a jubilee clip there was me all excited, it worked for 10mins then just cut out once again! Looks like I'm gonna give up on it and just leave it till summer :/
-
id try cleaning the carb again may take a fue attemps befor all cack cleaned out
-
I'll give it another go, just more white spirit to get giddy off woo! :o
-
Check your fuel tank and its contents : drain half a litre or so from the fuel hose at the carb into a large clean glass jar (apply a "vacuum" to the vacuum hose that's connected to the intake manifold, otherwise it won't flow...) and check the following :
-does the fuel filter allow for a continuous flow ? (an A50 needs 1..2 litres/hour)
-is there any dirt coming through the filter ? (even the tiniest bit is a problem)
-is there any water in the gasoline ? (water will separate and sink to the bottom)
Also : how old is the gasoline in the tank anyway ? Gasoline isn't what it used to be anymore nowadays... If you didn't refuel very often or left it standing for more than a month, it's probably better to just drain it completely and burn the old gasoline in your cage, or give it to someone who drives one - modern cages have engine management systems and fuel systems that can deal a lot better with deteriorated ethanol contaminated gasoline than our 1960s technology does... ;D
-
she's got no fuel in her at the mo as it likes to evaporate out of the fuel cap, as the rubber has cracked :-\ the fuel tank has a little bit of dirt floating in the bottom as i noticed a week ago or so, not sure if this is getting past the filter or not shouldnt be though as i replaced the fuel filter in feb, it was left for a while(about 8 months) with the same fuel in about quarter of a tank but it seemed to burn fine, but from what i remember when i first got it going with a little help from a mechanic, it had a big cloud of blue/grey smoke then just cut out. he sorted it out after replacing carb, putting redex in, new air filter, fuel filter and some other bits. then it seemed to be fine is still a bit smokey at full throttle a little blue smoke comes out but not much, and on the spark plug it seems to have oil, or extremely burnt petrol around the washer, hopefully its just petrol, but i have replaced it and it seems to be wet around the washer again.
-
she's got no fuel in her at the mo as it likes to evaporate out of the fuel cap, as the rubber has cracked :-\ the fuel tank has a little bit of dirt floating in the bottom as i noticed a week ago or so,
thats why your carb keeps getting blocked... clean out all fuel system. tank etc. also get an air tite fuel cap. if fuel can evaporate crap could be sucked in...
the blue smoke sounds like either valve guides failed or piston rings. if it was me id replace the piston cylinder and head. as there is many kits on the market ferly cheep. in the uk narkau 50cc kits £60 or you could make the most and change for an 72cc kit for about the same...
but you will have to re jet for a bigger cc kit( may be a head ake)
....................................i could be very wrong though so see what other people say to your post first..............................................
-
Yeah I was hoping that's what it wasn't, but he stripped down the top end and cylinder and piston rings were fine luckily, just somehow a lot of oil got into the combustion chamber and made a nice cloud of smoke, the crack is only minute but is enough to allow petrol vapours out over a few weeks.
I'm guessing I'll have to take the fuel tank out and flush it through with water perhaps or would this just rust it? Or I'm hoping that the valves might just need some adjustment, but its not efficient as bigger bikes or cars so will always be some smoke from a little 50 so I'm sure its nothing to worry about.
-
not sure water is a good thing to use. maybe drain all fuel then put an air line to it blow the crap out. then a quick rince with a little fuel.
if you had a mec working on your bike im suprised he dident change the piston and rings when he was in there only £15 for piston and rings. but while he was in there he might as well do...
id forget the mec. striping down the head would only take you 2 hour to strip and rebiuld yourself and is easy to do. it looks worse than it is. if you can check valve clerance then youre nerly there to doing a top end rebulid.
-
if fuel can evaporate crap could be sucked in...
Crap like water for example, remember that most gasoline contains the hydrophilic ethanol curse nowadays !
Oh, and never flush a tank with water, since it repels gasoline it will make some of the dirt even stick in there, and you'll only get more water in the system than you have already...
the crack is only minute but is enough to allow petrol vapours out over a few weeks
No way that a whole tank of gasoline would evaporate through a little crack in a few weeks.. You're sure there isn't a leak somewhere else, maybe the carb flooding because of a flaky float valve or something ?
Or I'm hoping that the valves might just need some adjustment, but its not efficient as bigger bikes or cars so will always be some smoke from a little 50 so I'm sure its nothing to worry about.
Valve play will only cause real trouble when it's set too tight, which could be a possible cause of your machine shutting down after warming up, but in that case you might have burnt a valve already...
And NO, it's not normal for a 50cc 4T to burn so much oil that there's even a tiny amount of smoke visible, your machine obviously has a serious problem, you might indeed have a broken oil seal on one of the valves...
Sounds like you're going to learn a lot about your A50 before you'll get it to run well... :(
On the other hand, messing around with these things can be a lot of fun when you have some patience and like to learn and take control in the end... ;D
-
+1 on the smoke. I have never seen any smoke out the back of mine, and i got 24,500km on mine. 2 strokes smoke, 4 strokes shouldnt.
-
Oh crap :( like I've even got the time or money to be replacing valves, it looks easy but I'm sure you will need some specialist tools or something, even to adjust the valves you need a 'valve adjuster'?! I don't have one and have no idea what one is, would a pair of pliars work? Also I don't have any feeler gauges :-\ only got basic tools :( hmm maybe easier to strip it and sell it for parts rather than messing about with it anymore than I have. It wouldn't be an issue if I had a job then it would probably be sorted by now. So if I just try to clean all fuel pipes etc what shall I use to clean them through? Also not sure how to clean the tank :/ well if I have quarter well not even that then over a period of a few weeks it will have evaporated, and there's no fuel leaking out anywhere haven't seen any moisture or smelt any petrol when I've had petrol in the tank so where its going I don't know?!
So the smoke could be worn piston rings? It was all fine when I stripped and cleaned the engine, and piston rings were fine must of finally worn then.
-
You only have to replace the valves if they're burnt from being set too tight... The things that _might_ be leaking oil are the oil seals on top of the valves, but I'm afraid it's no fun replacing them without a proper valve spring compressor, although it should be possible...
It's perfectly possible to adjust valve play with only a 9mm wrench and a pair of pliers. I did it that way for a few years, until I bought the right tool, which really made the job easier though...
And yes, it will be easier to strip your scoot and sell the parts, but then you're without scoot and you won't have made enough money to buy a new one...
Edit : you will either need feeler gauges or a lot of experience to set valve play... And maybe it's time to take a break, put the scoot aside for a few weeks, read a few good books about scooter/motorycle maintenance, ask yourself what you're really after, a hobby or just cheap transport - and only then decide whether to go forward with this project or not.... This will sound harsh, but sometimes it's good to step back and think things over without the pressure to achieve something...
-
as for the valves you may be able to buy a used head with valves for $15 of ebay. but you will not know if they are any good till you put it on.
1) GET SOME FEELER GAUGES. ( you will always need them playing with engines. even if its cheep set.
try that first after a good fuel system change/ clean up.
-
I never use any special tool to do my valves apart from the feeler guages and theyre only a couple of bucks off ebay or a good tool shop.
-
i think mat ment he didnt have tools to take valves out using valve spring compresor tool .not to check valve clerance.
-
So how will I know if my valves have burnt or not? I took the rocker cover off and it all seemed clean and like new, the valves went up and down fully when pushing the Kickstart and there is good compression, well it sounds like there is hasn't changed still just as easy to kick if not maybe a little harder. Just wish there was a goddam garage near me that fixes bikes and not only cars as they won't touch it I've already asked them all :( yeah Skippy I did mean that I have no spring compressors etc. Just a basic wrench set and toolbox full of tools but nothing specialized
-
Yo guys, I'm going to invest in some feeler gauges found some on tebay don't know if they're any good
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=120784819568&index=2&nav=SEARCH&nid=22327591972 (http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=120784819568&index=2&nav=SEARCH&nid=22327591972)
-
they will do the job.but id invest a fue more quid and get some better ones. if you have just set the gap the other day you will be in no rush for them, save a little doller. you will have then for life. in my youth i always bought cheep tools and they never lasted, just desposable. when i worked in the car trade all my tools got thrown away and bought teng tool. in my vote even better than snap on for price. but the price now has skyrocketed. but worth ever peney. look after your tools and they will look after you.
as i say they will do the job. but if youre getting into playing with your scooter ask santa for some tools.
-
Yeah I guess I'm better spending a bit more, I will try and fix it... Eventually when its a warm enough day for it so bloody cold annoying thing about winter in the crappy UK! Next it will be snow again :( already had some! Dont need anymore of the blasted stuff, will have no chance fixing her then or riding her, snow+agility = very dangerous I've tried it on snow once and that was enough for me! lol
-
matt just a thought... the last fue days my agility been running major rough. took the carb off 4 times to clean. new fuel filter etc.
every time i did it it was fine for a mile or two. even got some fuel addative (pre mot stuff to clean and reduce emitions) thinking that would clean all the crap and today just got worse. so after work(in the car park) ran engine and saw that the earth to the starter moter was lose, arking. so thats why it was running so bad. let it cough and splutter home with the odd stop to hand tighten the bolt.( the threds were worn and lose. changed the bolt to the starter and earth. all is good. so may be worth a running her in the dark see if your problem is just the earth.
-
Is that the green wire what connects to the starter motor and back of Kickstart case? If it is I noticed a few months ago the bolts were a little loose so I tightened them as much as I could as they're such a twat to get to, ended up using a socket screwdriver it seemed to work but maybe this could be why its dieing! Would love it to be an easy fix like that but knowing my luck it will be something much more serious and expensive haha!
-
thats the one. it only seems to hold on one thred. i have a scrap agility 50 for parts so took the starter motor of that one and swoped as the other one was a little thinner on bolt plate. and the bolts off that one.now it just tightens up enough to hold. i uesd a long 8mm socket and 2 exstention bars to a ratchet. and went over the exhaust through to the bolt. ran today and all was good. runs like a dream.
its worth a check but as i said in the dark i could see it sparking. :o
-
Yes it does seem to, looks like I'm gonna have to buy a new socket set then with more extensions, as mine has 1 and has seen better days!
-
or you could take carb out. and do it that way.
-
Ohh crap yeah forgot about that way, gonna clean the terminal up as well just to make sure there's nothing stopping it been earthed :) tomorrow's task if the weather isn't crap as per.
-
::) :D
-
New socket set bought ahh I love new tools :P now to get some petrol, then tomorrow gonna take her apart give the earth a nice clean up and see if that does anything hopefully it will be running again. Only downside to 2 wheels plus winter = epic fail its getting icy on the roads now :( that's the last thing I want to be riding on
-
Good luck!
Yeah, its icy here too now, -4 last week ::)
-
clean it up good check all the wireing ends too see if they look fresh. good luck.
-
new tools. is it just me or does anyone els get excited about tools.
let us know how you get on....
-
So I took starter motor off and cleaned the surface and earth wire, hasn't made a difference so after a bit of tinkering and putting petrol into the carb I finally got it started :) bit of smoke not too much though maybe due to it been so frigging cold and it been stood for a few months I don't know, anyway it was idling mega high on choke so any slight throttle I gave it the revs just dropped like a fly almost dead but then they picked up again eventually the choke calmed down a bit then gave it some throttle and it was really jerky and barely had any response ??? So confused to what's wrong I'm gonna try turning the fuel mix screw up a bit see if it does anything.
-
sorry mat could you tell us again everything you have done so far, and the results. saves us from reading all the thred again.so we can try to get you back on the road....
-
My money is still on it being a carb issue.
-
+1
I wouldn't be surprised if Matthew will soon be a member of the club of people that own a Kymco carb that should work but doesn't...
I've had two Kymco carbs die on me, without being able to find anything wrong with them - which has never happened to me with any other carb from any other vehicle since I started this hobby in 1986....
After a lot of tinkering and testing, I just replaced them with cheapo Chinese carbs - life's too short...
-
Well looking at the EPA data most of the smaller Kymco's are built on the mainland so
probably are Chinese to begin with. Maybe there are hidden flaws or some sort of
porosity in the metal? I ruined a carb on an old DR350 once by turning the mix screw
all the way in to count turns, when it bottomed it opened the hole up from 0.0001 to
0.00012 and made the thing run rich after that. A cheap replacement would be something
to try...
-
Interesting...
I already suspected my dead carbs to be damaged by turning the mix screw in too tight... The exact size of this hole, and whether it had possibly cracked open a bit or not, was the only thing in the whole carb that I didn't check well enough to be sure.... And with both carbs the malfunctions were in the idle zone, they ran OK at WOT, but flaky at idle and picking up, and the mix screw had too little effect on idle rpm...
Your experience with the DR350 confirms my suspicion that I should be more careful when turning in the mix screw... And thinking back, I realise that this could also be the reason that it only occurred with Kymco carbs so far, because I never used this trick on any carb until I read about it in the Kymco manual (my previous bikes were all 2T and my cars never needed adjustment...)
Perhaps this is the source of a lot of other people's carb trouble as well ...
-
Hopefully it will just need loosening a bit I think I screwed it in too far when setting the carb up might just need an extra turn or so and then it should begetting the right fuel mix as it does seem to be running a little lean :-\ and if that doesn't work then looks like a new carb will be ordered :)
-
Nope defiantly not the fuel mix I has it running and had a great 10min ride until I had to take my hand off throttle for junctions then it just bogs down and eventually dies yet again! Tried adjusting the fuel mix screw several times I even almost completely unscrewed the bastard but it still has the same problem :( and the idle is mega high its like I'm giving it at least 1/4 throttle even though I'm not touching it, then as soon as I try to even slightly rev it the engine almost stalls its doing the total opposite of what it should when you open the throttle up revs drop instead of pick up so confused?! ??? I wish I knew what the hell is going on inside that engine! :S looks like a new carb I guess :(
-
.
Matthew...
Have you had a read of this thread.... and in particular the last few posts with the solution..... http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=8231.0 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=8231.0) .... (or at least i hope its the solution!)
Fabio
.
-
yes ive checked most of those things there are no cracks in any pipes or wires just a slight bit of corrosion but only to the surface of the pipes so wont affect the performance of the parts, im really stuck on what it could be a lot of headscratching might have to invest in a new carb £36 :( a lot of money just to get it working i just want a cheap one what will get it running until Jan when the insurance runs out then it will be going to a new home i reckon as im getting a car as soon as i get my test passed so wont have time for her anymore, 2 years of decent riding and now it gives up ahh well. been to some nice places (4 hours there and the same back) bit painful but was well worth the ride haha :)
all the carb and jets are clean as a whistle, the pin on the diaphragm is fine and moves smoothly the diaphragm is also fine no holes or cracks, but the fuel mixture screw seems very easy to screw and unscrew, im sure when i set the mixture last time it was a lot tighter than that, also i can feel the spring inside and can also hear it moving ???
-
I was reading on another site and they got a carb for cheap - £4. Here's the listing (ended);
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121020873883?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649&clk_rvr_id=427017325959 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121020873883?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649&clk_rvr_id=427017325959)
-
Yeah motorandy I've already contacted the seller and they haven't got any more :(
-
Take a look at this Carb cleaning tool - it may be of use to you... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160943325772?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1586.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160943325772?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1586.l2649)
-
I have used carb cleaner for the jets and a bristle from paintbrush and a thin wire to clean the jets, but never tried one of these kits looks like I'll have to ask Santa for one haha ;) I hope it just needs cleaning a little better, if not I'm still gonna be stuck at a brickwall :/
-
This is what you can do.. Remove Carb... Dissect carb completely... Boil carb and all metal parts, jets, and all, submerged in boiling water with a few squirts of Non pulp Lemon juice for 20 mins. Once done, remove and blow out all parts with compressed air.. For Brass jets and Jet tubing, poke through all holes using a strand of wire cut from a bicycle cable. This strand is very small and will allow you to poke through all the side holes on the Main jet pitot tube. Once done. Blow through all holes again with compressed air and reassemble and re install carb to engine.. Done.. Also.. Remove inline fuel filter and while cranking engine to actuate fuel valve to pump fuel out of fuel line and purge any particles of matter and debris from the fuel line.. Install a new fuel filter and repeat this process to again purge the fuel line of any particles. Once you have flowed enough fuel through filter and lines to flush out any particles, install fuel line to carb. Shoot intake with starting fluid. Fire motor.. Enjoy the ride..
-
I might give that a go when the weather is warm enough.
But at the moment it won't even start it will turnover and there is a decent spark and fuel going into carb and engine but won't start maybe due to it being stood for a few months I really don't know and I'm now starting to loose my rag with it! >:(
Any help would be much appreciated :)
-
To buy pass everthing just pick up a new carb. also check the air hose that goes to the immisssion control...... if that leaks at all the scoot will bog down and not run right............
-
Right just had a good half hour of tinkering and she lives once again! :) doesn't seem to be bogging down at all when I've ridden it and been riding for at least 30mins! Its now just sat purring away nicely :) can't understand this Ped it only works when it wants it seems!
-
Well that success was short lived! It just turned itself off and now won't start will turn over and run for 5secs, dammit :( getting a mechanic to check it over later though so hopefully he will know more.
-
Right I've had it in pieces fitted a new plug and the only thing I can find wrong is the auto choke its doing nothing when the ignition is turned on, the needle doesn't extend or retract and when I take the choke out and plug the hole for the choke with a bit of cloth it seems to work fine. It even starts better and ticks over better without the choke!
-
Right I've had it in pieces fitted a new plug and the only thing I can find wrong is the auto choke its doing nothing when the ignition is turned on, the needle doesn't extend or retract and when I take the choke out and plug the hole for the choke with a bit of cloth it seems to work fine. It even starts better and ticks over better without the choke!
Ok now its time to do some red neck work for your scoot. beleave it or not I have a older scoot that I runn with a 20 mm carb and I have a nickle clued down with silicone. never had a choke on it at all the only hard time starting it is when its cold out. the scoot will run fine like that. I also had a scoot that had no choke and I hooked up a gravty flow gas tank to it that scoot I stell have it .but it needs some work to get it back on the road.
-
has smelt of a sort of melting/ burning rubber smell but it has always done it so maybe this could be something
Perhaps there is a clutch issue that is not allowing proper freewheeling. While on the center (centre) stand with the engine off, rotate the rear wheel to check for resistance . . other than final-drive gear-ratio drag.
-
Might also check if the air-cut-valve is assembled properly . . discussion (http://itistheride.boards.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=50ac&thread=1098&page=1#10187).
Advance to 2:38
CV carburetor disassembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnzzUOcXqLY#)
-
Redneck work haha! I found the problem its the auto choke the needle won't move on it at all when I plug it into battery, it worked fine with my finger over the hole of the choke so either gonna get a new choke or just stick something on it! At least I found what's wrong with the bloody thing took me long enough! So I'm guessing at full throttle it will be getting way to much gas and flooding the engine? If the choke is staying permanently on.
-
guessing at full throttle it will be getting way to much gas and flooding the engine? If the choke is staying permanently on.
At full throttle, although air flow increases, manifold vacuum decreases and there is less fuel flow through the enricher port in the throttle bore . . as compared to higher manifold vacuum at idle and low throttle. An enricher switch (http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=discussion&thread=56179&page=1#544521) may actually benefit cool weather running until the carb heats up.
-
Yeah that's all the right way around had that apart a few times and checked diagrams so the carb is put together properly. I've ordered a new carb for it should be here on Tues so I will get it fitted and hopefully that will sort the problem!
If its needed I will fit a switch but hopefully the new carb will sort it, had the old one wired up to a battery and it doesn't extend or retract so it must be permanently on.
I will be back on Tues and give the verdict.
Thanks again for all the advice guys keep up the good work!
-
Still the same problem after fitting a new choke it ran and rode for 5mins then just cut out :(
I have no idea what to try now!
-
Have you ruled out a defective vacuum fuel valve?
http://youtu.be/FnhSfgS0x4Y (http://youtu.be/FnhSfgS0x4Y)
-
I will check that to. The choke needle still is not moving when the ignition is switched on or if the Ped is started so maybe there isn't any power going to the choke?
-
try puting gas in small bottle with niple on it so you can hook up a gas line and runn it to the carb and see if the scoot will run like that. that way you will tell if its something with the gas lines or gas tank.