KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Super 9 => Topic started by: Rage on August 21, 2012, 05:01:19 PM
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Yup... very discouraged now. Swapped out pulleys in my 2002 Super 9LC, for unrestricted a50 pulleys. Also a new belt, naruku 1500 spring, and malossi yellow end cap. Used stock weights again, they looked fine. Swap went well, but on first ride, wouldnt "shift" into higher gear! After starting and stopping 5-6 times, she started to pick up speed, albeit slowly. Now she tops out at 42 >:( She would hit 47-50 regularly before.... What did I do wrong guys? Is the spring too stiff? Maybe I should remove that yellow end cap? I dont know, just very disappointed. Help!
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I would guess you need heavier weights in the varaitor to counter act the 1500 spring and the yellow cap.
If it just stays in high rpms but never gains the higher gear as you put it, then your varaitor weights are not producing enough force to expand the varaitor it's self.
Try some heavier weights.
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Nailed it! What weight is in it now?
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stock..... 8.5's. What should I try? 10's?
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tablist180 did nail it. Stronger contra spring puts more pressure on the rollers. The stock rollers are now not heavy enough to do their job.
There is no exact weight we can tell you. A lot depends on riding style and terrain. I've made the mistake of trying to tune my CVT on roads I never ride. You can get a better feel on roads you ride daily. Just going to have to be trial and error. 10 or 11g rollers could be a good start. I'd get both and see which ones you like better.
Heavier weights will bring the rpms down. You want a good balance of torque and hp. The rpms where you get the best balance is your power band. You're above your power band now. Your rpms are riding where the torque curve is falling off. Bring the rpms down.
Don't get discouraged. It's hardly ever right the first try. Especially when you change so many things at the same time. It'll be worth it when you do get it right :)
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Try marking the Var, and TD pulleys to see what is happening first. 8.5 should be able to open the pulleys. It may be something else.
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Sorry for the noob question..... but what do u mean by marking the pulleys? how far the belt travels?
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True true. It certainly wouldn't hurt.
I haven't been following his build but I'm assuming his engine is mostly stock. Stock exhaust?
With the power lower in the rpms on a stock engine with stock exhaust you would need really heavy rollers to keep the rpms down. If he added aftermarket exhaust and/or a bbk he would want to lighten the rollers bringing the rpms up again.
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Use a magic marker to mark the pulleys. Run the scoot, and check how far the belt travels. A nice big line on all the pulleys will tell you alot.
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Take a magic marker/sharpie and draw a line from the very bottom of the variator ramp all the way to the top. Do the same for the rear pulley. Take it for a ride up to your max speed. Go back in the CVT and see how much if any of the line is left. If the mark is still there at the very outside/top of the ramp, then your CVT is not shifting into "high gear" if you will. Measure exactly how much of the line is left.
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You got this zombie
I'm goin to get some beer ;D
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Thanks guys, will do this within the next few days. Yes, my scoot is stock, just derestricted. I was hoping to gain a few mphs up top, with a little loss in bottom end. I will mark the pulleys and try the same setup but without the end cap. That only added 3/16" or so to the total spring load, but who knows. Will report back.
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Ok, threw old spring with end cap in. Of course forgot to mark pulleys. Will do next time. Anyway, still a hair slower than it was before. A slight bog of the line, but mid range seems much more responsive. Still only topping out at 45...... So the only real difference now is the pulleys, new belt, and malossi yellow TC.
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Swap went well, but on first ride, wouldnt "shift" into higher gear!
..what are your rpms, at takeoff, after stall, and how long of a lag...then what are your rpms at 42...
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The first few runs she would peg to 9,000+rpm, and max at at 42mph at 9,000rpm. Now with the stock spring and cap, she jumps to 7,000rpm, holds it till 35ish, then peaks around 45 at 8200rpm. This was only a quick ride cuz it was starting to rain. Will give it a 50 mile run first thing in the morning.
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..well, DO NOT install heavier rollers...
..try 7-7.5 grams...
;)
..well, at least try that...
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Ok, will pick up a few different sets and play around with them. Sucks I can't use that spring tho. Thought the 1500 spring would be ok with a stock setup. Another question, does it matter which way the rollers are installed? One side has more of a lip than the other...... Thanks again.
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..you CAN use that spring...put the 1500 back in and try 7.5 rollers...
..put the more solid side of the roller to the left, if installing on the "top" roller slot in the variator...
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But if the 8.5s wouldnt open the pulley, how will the 7.5s? Sorry, still learning here.
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Wordslinger and zombie definitely know better than me ???
Slingers got an S9 too so....
Maybe your new belt is too short
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..it's all about getting into the good rpms...
..all about tuning to the pipe...
..but keep in mind, that once you install a 1500 contra, which s9lc scoots just seem to lloovvee, you probably going to need to stiffen the fly springs, in order to take full effect of the increased tension ...
..people keep shouting heavier rollers..it's never worked in my scoot, and nina jumps to 9000 and hovers there till i start to approach 55mph..
..now, she does have a pipe and filter, buti still remember 8200+ being a strong powerband when she was oem...
..get you some 9.5 and some 7.5 and give them both a try..i'll buy the 9.5s if you find you dont need them..
;D
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Compare the new belt to the old belt next time your in there. The size indicated on aftermarket belts is not always correct.
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Thanks for the quick replies. The belts are identical model #. Other than the original being worn.,I did not try the 1500 spring without that yellow cap yet tho. I will try that soon also.
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Just read again what u wrote. Will hold both belts together next time I crack her open. I did check that they were the same width.... The old one being about 2mm less wide, from being worn.
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Just run the magic marker test to see. Did you keep the OEM sleeve inside the spring? I had to cut mine shorter using the Malossi torsion control.
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I didn't cut anything..... Would I hear a scraping? How do I know if I need to cut it? By the marker test?
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..yeah, do the 1500 WITHOUT the malossi yellow thingy...
..that yellow thingy probably takes that up to a 1600-1650...
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..oem engine/intake/pipe will struggle to get there..
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Yes. The sleeve will bottom out if it is installed with the torsion controller, blocking the td from opening all the way. Marker will tell you.
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Cool, lots to test out. Just marked pulleys and going for a long drive tomorrow. Will see what happens. Then will try naraku 1500 spring by itself after. Thanks guys, will let u know how it goes.
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Yes. The sleeve will bottom out if it is installed with the torsion controller, blocking the td from opening all the way. Marker will tell you.
..i cut one down by 1/4"...fixin to try it...maybe...i dont really wanna mess with my setup right now...
..but i could tell difference when i first tried the ball bearing spring thingy...except for the fact that it wnted to turn 11,000 at 40 mph...lol...
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I'm going to reverse my Malossi and run it on the TD side. I should have a new sleeve by the end of the week. I ran it this way on the Ruima, and liked it better. I never felt the cvt work that way. With the controller under the clutch I can feel the cvt hit. No idea why...
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Ok guys, heres the latest. So, rode the scoot 26 miles each way to work last night. Still a slight bog off takeoff, no biggie, but now she will go back to 47 mph, 51 ducking down. Same speeds as before, but @ 200 less rpm. When shes cold, she goes to 7,000 rpm until 40mph, then goes up from there. When fully warmed up, she will jump to 7400ish rpm and hold till 40mph as well. I did mark the pulleys last night, so i will take her apart later and see what shes doing.
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Checked the marks. Of course the lines on the new pulleys werent wiped off.... waited too long. The line on the variator was erased to withinn 3/16" of the top. So do we feel that is normal? Thanks again.
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Of course the lines on the new pulleys werent wiped off.... waited too long.
???
Explain
Pretty sure 3/16" is too much on the variator. Don't think it's fully opening closing. Lets see what word or zombie say
So is the new belt the same manufacturer and model # as the old. Not sure? Did you compare the two yet?
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They have identical #'s..... but have not taken it off to compare side by side. I put a line on the new pulleys, but it seemed to absorb into the pulley and not show me how far it went down. It must go most of the way, cuz I did hit 51mph. So you think 3/16" is to much? When I have a few minutes I will remove the end cap and see if that helps. That wont be for a day or two tho.
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Yeah, I think it's too much. I'm not positive.
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The belts may have the same # but are different brands. I bought a Gates Kevlar belt to replace my OEM. Even though it said it said it was the same size, it wasn't. It was supposed to be 748x18x28. First off, it was only 17mm wide :o. According to the service manual 17mm is the service limit. I was wondering "why would I put a new belt in that was already at the service limit?"
I posted a new topic and zombie informed me that this is common and to just try it anyway. Manufacturers apparently use what they think is best :D. Making it difficult to find the size you really want.
So, then when I went to put it on I compared it to the OEM. It was longer too. To wrap up my story here ;) it ended up working great for me. I think extra length is ok but too short is no good.
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You'll probably have to spread the two halves apart with your hands to see all the way down inside the rear pulley
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Just did the magic marker test on my people. Pretty sure this is what it should look like
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/liftman87/0823121847.jpg)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/liftman87/0823121928.jpg)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/liftman87/0823121930.jpg)
A 1/16" at the most
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..you're right on pete!!
..that is desirable!!
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Cool ;D
I put some 7g rollers in today. They're perfect! I had bought 6g rollers but they were too light. Rpms were a little too high. 7s get that nice torque back. Topped out at about 52 flat ground and about 56+ downhill. Just gotta get that restriction in the rear pulley taken care of and I'll have my speedo pegged ;D
Hey word, you fixed one of yours that had that restriction right? Zombie was tellin me I could order one for a ZX and it would fit. Do I need both halves of the pulley or just the torque driver?
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..pete, yeah, i ordered the complete a50 clutch and pulley, but yeah you do need both halves...
..it's all according to how far you want to tear into you oem, in order to replace the pulleys...
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Gotcha
Did you get OEM or aftermarket?
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..i've tried several aftermarket, that for one reason or another, i wasnt really satisfied with..
..i bought oem from stadium..
..hard to go wrong with those oem bits onna basically oem scoot..
..only thing is, when buying the complete a50 bits, you get the a50 springs, which are lighter that 2t...
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Little help guys. On the unrestricted pulleys, is the belt supposed to go all the way down to the shaft? Even after I removed the yellow cap, with the pulleys out, the belt goes 3/4 of the way down. I am going to run her in the morning with the 1500 spring and no cap. Hoping for the best.
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..yup..belt should go pretty much all the way...
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..yup..belt should go pretty much all the way...
With the pulleys out, fully opened, the belt will only go 90% of the way down. With the insert in the spring, all put back together, it only goes 3/4 of the way down. The insert for the spring is all the way against clutch plate, fully maxed out. This is with no yellow cap on. Can anyone else confirm my findings, or am I doing something wrong?
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Do you still have the spring sleeve in the TD?
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Do you still have the spring sleeve in the TD?
Yes, you are referring to the sleeve that goes into the spring right? If so, yes that is still there. I did remove the yellow end cap tho.
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WHEN I TRIED THE BALL BEARING BASE, I FOUND THAT I HAD TO REMOVE ABOUT 5/16" FROM THE TOP SPRING GUIDE SLEEVE..
..sorry for caps...
..the top sleve would hit the torque driver sleeve...
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So, will I have to modify my stock spring insert to run the unrestricted pulley?
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Just to reiterate, I am not using any torsion controller whatsoever...... and the belt will still only go 3/4 of the way down. On another note, check out the thread about my variator. Is it supposed to be perfectly smooth?
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So, will I have to modify my stock spring insert to run the unrestricted pulley?
..i dont think you should have to...hard to say without actually sqeezing together and seeing if it touches...
..but if all bits are oem, other than spring, should be okay...
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..so the belt isnt going all the way down in the driven pulleys, neither is it travelling out completely on the variator...
..sounds like a short belt!!
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..so the belt isnt going all the way down in the driven pulleys, neither is it travelling out completely on the variator...
..sounds like a short belt!!
I will confirm this tonight. The belt wouldt go all the way to the shaft on the driven pulleys, even when they were not loaded. But with the spring loaded and that spring guide, it only opens enough to go 3/4 of the way down. Hell, I will try the old belt too. Another quick concern. If the belt goes all the way down on the driven pulleys, aren't you concerned that minor amounts of grease will make the belt start to slip? A trivial amount must be left behind when the pulleys open and close.
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That small amount of grease should heat, and blow off by itself. No concern. How wide is the belt you are trying. One more thing I would try is removing the spring, and the rollers. Assemble the drive, and manually see how far everything travels. You may be missing something simple that can not be seen when all the parts are installed.
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+1 z ! 8)
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Thanks again for the quick replies..... the belt is a stock replacement bando. The only difference is the new one is a hair wider, just due to the old being worn. I have disassembled everything again, i will post pics of the pulley fully opened with the old belt in it(which is more narrow btw), showing that it doesnt go all the way down. Will post in a few minutes.
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..well, sitting idle, the belt most likely will not go into the pulley completely...
..it tends to compress as the forces that be, apply themselves to it while under torque...
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..bando is an awesome belt...
;)
..however....to tune the s9 up, you will need at least a 743-18-28 gates premium....some say 748....
..i'm running a 732-18.5-28 gates boost on nina...
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Heres the pics... lol. I will like to try one of those belts too.... http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/557b3313.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/557b3313.jpg.html)
http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/5fa3bb7b.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/5fa3bb7b.jpg.html)
http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2b93e5e5.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2b93e5e5.jpg.html)
http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2f7c88ba.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2f7c88ba.jpg.html)
These are with the old belt.... new one doesnt even go down this far.....
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..from the pics, it ...looks like your driven pulley has a recess, and is not a smooth surface from outside to inside...is this true?...
..should look like these...
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..referencing this pic, mainly....
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There is a recess.... just took apart pulleys again with new pics... here ya go http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2c904213.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/2c904213.jpg.html)
http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/431e33bf.jpg.html (http://s1169.beta.photobucket.com/user/Nickjillb/media/431e33bf.jpg.html)
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..yup..thats definately a recess..
..you r losing grip there.....
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What do i do? Bitch to the supplier? Did I get a wrong part?
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..yup...show them these posts...
..should be smooth on both sides..thats a mis-matched set of pulleys, bro...
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GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:( Thanks bro. You dont happen to have your item # do you? I know I am in for a fight.....
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..where you get them from?
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2WHEELPROS.COM You are absolutely right bro. The item # i ordered was 23220-ldc8-C10..... they sent me 23220-ldc8-E10. Thank god i kept the original box and packaging. Thanks for helping me figure this out.
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..from kymcoparts123.com
..don woods polaris...gotta pay shipping, and usually 10 business days, but they aint ever shipped me the wrong oem parts...
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Thanks again bro. Your #'s are for the entire driven assembly, mine are for just the pulley set...... either way, they sent me the E10 pulley, when I should have gotten the C10. Cant wait to fight this one..... will update later.... Nothing is easy, lol.
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..yup, thats right..
..however, you got a mismatch..at best, regardless the part#...
..again, save these posts, and use them...
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..the restricted driven pulleys are common to a lot of the 2t scoots after 2001-3, depending on which model...
...this is a relatively new understanding..kinda was overlooked as a restriction for a while...
..i suspect some distributors are trying to get rid of them, as they possibly can...
..if you don't know to look for it, you never would...
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Damn! :o
This is why posting pics/videos is so important. 1000 words. Glad you found the problem Rage. Good luck with your fight
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..pics are so important...
:-X they cant lie...
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Thanks again.... went to the website. I ordered the right part.... its on my receipt, but when u go to the website now, you get this
Manufacturer: Genuine Kymco Part
Manufacturer Part#: 23220-LDC8-E10
Item Number: OEM705023
This Part Replaces: 23220-LDC8-C10
Now I know its gonna be a fight
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..dang, but still...you do not have a matched set of pulleys..
..even a restricted set are matched...like these...
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Very true. Will start the fight Monday...... lets see how it goes.
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..when they make it right, and i hope they do, there will be further cvt tuning, but itll make a whole lot more sense then...
;)
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Cant thank you guys enough.... I actually think I understand CVT's now.... so let the fun begin :)
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..cvts are about having the best fuel mix, combustion..delivering the raw horsepower to the variator...
..then translating that output to the rear tire, while keeping the engine running a pretty much constant rpm, until you venture toward top speeds...
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Grrr..... gonna be a fight. I knew it. Kymco doesnt make that pulley that you have anymore. Every web site shows its being replaced by the one I received. Do you guys know anyone who has a set like Slingers?
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Zombie said the one for the ZX will work too. Or... Has that part been replaced with the restricted one too?
Hummmm....
Take a look at this
http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=YAM#/Kymco_USA/SC10AS_ZX50/CVT_%2f%2f_Clutch/2K01120005/01120015 (http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=YAM#/Kymco_USA/SC10AS_ZX50/CVT_%2f%2f_Clutch/2K01120005/01120015)
I'd give stadium a call and see if that assembly is restricted
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..wowww...
..kymcoparts123 have modified their drawings, and have "call us" on the a50 pulleys, unless you buy the $90.00 assembly..
23010..... 23010-LDC8-C10 PULLEY ASSY DRIVEN
..dang, i shoulda bought a cpl or 3...
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OK guys, update time. Still battling to get the correct pulley. In the mean time, I installed new oem 8.5 rollers, belt, original regreased pulley, 1500 spring. Holy Crap! I am soo friggin happy. Power all over the place, except for a tiny delay at the very beginning. But all my goals are achieved now. Can maintain 55mph at only 8500rpm! I can easily cruise at 52 sitting up at 8,100rpm.....where I used to be at 9,000+rpm. I just trailed a truck in the passing lane for the first time with the speedo pinned....... must have been around 60-65mph. I am just gonna fight for a refund on those pulleys now. Next up, getting those avon vipers installed ;D
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Awesome man!
Wish I had one of them S9s :'(
Power all over the place, except for a tiny delay at the very beginning.
Stiffer clutch springs will help that
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Awesome man!
Wish I had one of them S9s :'(
Stiffer clutch springs will help that
Thats what I hear.... may have to give them a shot. Then the mod bug will be in full effect! Lol. I forgot to mention I also installed a Naruku oiled air OEM replacement air filter. I cant imagine what a pipe and rejetting would do..... :-)
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Yeah, those Super 9s are fast
I realized this the other day... When I bought my people I could have got an S9 for about 4 or $500 hundred more. Boy am I sorry. I've spent more than that just making my People keep up with a S9. I just didn't know then. To be honest I didn't know sh** about scoots period. I just knew I wanted a 2 stroke. In the end though, 2 grand plus tax and all the other BS fees was too much as it was. I bought one new for the warranty. That proved to be useless anyway. I shoulda just found a used S9. Like I said, I just didn't know. Live and learn :-[
Don't get me wrong, I love my Peop. Kymcos are great scooters. Coulda been much worse. I could have bought a VIP :D. I don't know what I'd have done if I didn't have this forum. Still on my way home from school getting passed by big trucks cause my POS VIP won't go over 35 :D
You've definitely caught the tuning bug ;D
Stick around the forum. We like to joke and have fun too. Despite how some forum members feel about it :D ;)
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MOD:
Just realized you're already a full member. Disregard my last statement there :D
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Speaking of VIP scoots is a sore spot with me. Finally got my Super 8 to go up to 40mph and was happy with it. On my way down to the beach at near WOT when two, what looked to be 12 year olds, blew past me on a bright yellow and blue VIP with a stack of 3 crab traps tied to the rack. Didn't even feel like going on down to the beach after that. I bought my People 250 about two weeks later. >:(
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3 days, no activity....wtf?
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I'll play w/ ya Rage... Who can we piss off, and how? I know, There was a Jew, a Mormon, an Indian, and a ginger all riding on an S9. The Mormon said... Does anyone else smell poo poo?
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been doing some reading here and almost ordered that a50 pulley today - so to make sure i have this correct - the unrestricted a50 is no more - if that is the case is there a substitute other than the naraku - will the malossi drive face work or do the job and display the stamina of a oem a50 unrestricted pulley - read here that the naraku worked well but didnt last long - thanks
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...update??
..>>SNIFF<<..
..what's that smmelll??....