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Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: subwoffer on June 24, 2012, 10:03:37 PM

Title: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 24, 2012, 10:03:37 PM
hi . i would like to know if anybody have the knowledge to tell me what amplifier i should buy to feed 12 inch subwoofer , and what Woltage of the speakers should come with it ? ( i'd  like it pretty loud, not the " built in mirrors" sound :)

Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 24, 2012, 10:24:31 PM
hi . i would like to know if anybody have the knowledge to tell me what amplifier i should buy to feed 12 inch subwoofer , and what Woltage of the speakers should come with it ? ( i'd  like it pretty loud, not the " built in mirrors" sound :)

Oh my, this will get a lot more complex then you ever imagined.

First of all, the terms are "Voltage" and "Wattage", the latter being the power and probably what
you're asking about.

The size of the woofer tells you absolutely nothing about it's power requirements.
You can find the rated power of a loudspeaker usually on the back of it or on the
package. For a 12" woofer, it can be anything from 30W to over 500W. It will also
have a certain resistance value, between 2 and 8 ohms.

When looking at an amplifier, it's power will be rated something like 100W/ch@8ohm,
meaning you get an output of 100 watts per channel (if you have 2 speakers which
is a normal stereo setup) if the loudspeaker is an 8 ohm speaker. To get things even
more complicated, the speakers always changes it's resistance depending on the
tone frequency (read: it can be 2 ohm at low tones and 10 at high tones).

If this value varies more, you need a stronger and more stable (usually more expensive,
not just more watts) amplifier.

And now forget all of this since it has nothing to do with quality or even how loud a
loudspeaker will play.

That's determined by the speaker's efficiency/sensitivity value given in a number like
90dB/W/m, which means it'll play 90dB loud with 1W of power at 1 meter away.

In short, this means a speaker with high sensitivity can play louder with just 1 watt
then some will with 100 watts.

Considering how you put the question together, I'm gonna say you're screwed.
 ;D

...but feel free to ask if something needs more explaining, if my english is good
enough I'll try..
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 24, 2012, 11:07:42 PM
thanks for the explanation .
but i think i'll be able to simplify this a bit .
take a car for example . minimum stereo setup (with sub and AMP) . sounds loud enough .
now lets be more specific,i'd like to hear it loud enough while driving at 0-90 kmh(considering that's on the bike )  . ( the 90 kmh speed with music might be in my dreams only, but i dont care , i'll be happy enough to listen to it on "parking" or 20 kmh . )

so,even more simple , what setup should i buy that will be balanced enough to fit bike's electricity , and be loud enough .

saw a millions of those on youtube, i think this will  be simple enough as long as i'll know the specific of the products that will do the job
(this is the "super-extreme system)
Crazy Scooters with Sound Systems (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWOrnZOLVc#ws)
(and thats more stabilized )
Audio Scooter sound Aerox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr-M4CX1t4E#)

(and another one , kind of how to )
Scooter Audio - Part 02 - How its made (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WVC9Smn_Xk#)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 24, 2012, 11:26:58 PM
A few check points will make this easier... The size of the speaker is mandated by the size of the enclosure. Use some cardboard to rough in the area for your speaker(s) Use a cubic foot box filled w/ styrofoam noodles to gauge the air space inside your box. Match your speaker(s) to that.
The amp does not need to be rated at 100,000,000watts. A good 20 watt amp will work great with 2, 4" subs in a cubic foot of air space.With one 4 chanel 40 watt amp you can run 6 speakers, w/ crossovers, and still draw less than 20amps at the battery. The battery would benefit from a surge capacitor as well. 300. - 400.00 could set you up killer. No need for a "head unit" either. Use your phone/mp3/bluetooth.
Sound stream makes some of the best stuff. These will drive you nuts... http://www.soundstream.com/AudioProducts/Subwoofers/stealth.htm (http://www.soundstream.com/AudioProducts/Subwoofers/stealth.htm)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 25, 2012, 12:00:13 AM
all i need is 1 sub and 2 speakers .
can you please help me choose the right products? ( btw i cant get this amazing sub,because i havent found this on a local sites, and if i'll do it'll cost a fortune, so i'll be satisfied enough with a regular one , i'll make a nice box for him inside the seat)

so things i need:
1.sub
2. pair of speakers
3.amp
4.surge capacitor


the sub will be 12 or 10 , fits perfect under the seat . now if the amp is 200 w , what sub should i get ?
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 25, 2012, 12:04:09 AM
What battery are you going to use? What is the out put of you stator?
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 25, 2012, 12:18:43 AM
im going to use the stock downtown battery,and of course turn the system on only when the engine works .
please explain about the out put of the stator? :D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: whiteknight on June 25, 2012, 12:55:35 AM
im going to use the stock downtown battery,and of course turn the system on only when the engine works .
please explain about the out put of the stator? :D

in basic terms, the stator will be playing tug of war with the "sound system" you need to be getting enough charge to the battery to be able to supply a powerful enough spark for the engine and power your system. Did i get that right Zombie?
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 25, 2012, 02:27:13 AM
First to ask is "what type of music do you listen to?" RnB? Jazz? Different types requires different sound set up.

Second question is how much space are you willing to suffer or give up?

Speakers performance depends a lot on the enclosure (box). Would you prefer a bandpass or sealed enclosure system? With the speakers specification, one can compute a matching enclosure. You have to consult a shop for this or   http://www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm (http://www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm)     Efficiency is the key word and not power. An efficient system will sound good with low power and with the right equipment.

Typical Class AB amps are less efficient (around 50-60%) thus eats a lot of power. Get a class D amp with a higher efficiency at 90%. This consumes a lot less power.

Also, don't be misled by bike super sound set-ups in the net. A lot of these are for "show" and attach them to external power supplies when parked. Most of these are not being used while riding.


(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQrQC5-qXwijz1lmvUNLOZqeJ_WwlijyHTTfwoU9UC2x2Rvp2vLwFCaG86A)


(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0t7dd9T7OKMISZLHzc4L96agKFb41twoc9H2H8JNdsa5xpf8zdrP0uOH4)




For your scoot, I would suggest.

1. an 8" subwoofer and a set of 6" separates

2. a Class D Digital four channel speaker maybe a 40x4 RMS  (use 2 channel for a set of separates and bridge the other two for your sub)

3. a 1 farad capacitor


As to sound quality, forget about it because the acoustics would be at it's worst. It's a scooter.

Last thing, consult a pro if you want to do things right. This is not a D.I.Y. thing.



Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 25, 2012, 12:25:10 PM
I won't get into specifics (re exact products since I have knowledge only about hi-end home audio stuff, and I
wouldn't even invest money into a car system since it all sounds like crap, being it's inside a car), but I will say
+1 to the D class amp recommendations, and make sure you don't kill the electrics on the scoot.

That's the first thing to take care of.

And again, all this talk about 20W or 40W or whatever watts being loud enough, you don't know that, it depends
on the loudspeakers.

Some will punch out 80dB, some over 100dB with the same amplifier, and that's night and day difference.

I used to have a home audio setup with high sensitivity speakers that could play at live even levels (think jazz club etc)
with just a 18W amplifier.

I've got a friend who can have his own private Rolling Stones concert in the room with a 8W per channel amp and
some freakish loudspeakers with over 100dB/w/m efficiency.

On the other hand, a KRELL 300W amp (popular choice among the deaf) with some electrostatic Martin Logan speakers
of the same price level (read: very expensive) will not be able to play even half as loud.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 25, 2012, 12:48:58 PM
im giving up the whole underseat space . i have to think about an idea how to make the speakers go in and out the "storage" under the seat, and still be fixed enough , for avoiding vibrations and stuff .

anyway .correct me if i wrong

speakers:

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/jbl-gt5-502.html (http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/jbl-gt5-502.html)

amp

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTORCYCLE-AMP-NITRO-SMALL-MINI-4-CH-300W-AMPLIFIER-NEW-/130546681380?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item1e65304624&vxp=mtr#ht_4540wt_1163 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTORCYCLE-AMP-NITRO-SMALL-MINI-4-CH-300W-AMPLIFIER-NEW-/130546681380?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item1e65304624&vxp=mtr#ht_4540wt_1163)


sub

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PZz8w4GuiW3/p_109GTO804/JBL-GTO804.html#details-tab (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PZz8w4GuiW3/p_109GTO804/JBL-GTO804.html#details-tab)

Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 25, 2012, 12:56:37 PM
That'll work, just don't expect anyone to tell you how good it'll sound.
No one will know.

That's all cheap stuff.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 25, 2012, 07:11:55 PM
I'm not trying to impress the media with the super awesome audio system design you know . Btw , I have this "cheap" Logitech 5.1 speakers In my room
, an I'm pretty satisfied . Sure, I'm not the sound master , but as long as it has a clear sound , and deep enough bass, I'll be damn happy .


And what's wrong with " cheap" jlb speakers ? Does they sound like sh**ty Chinese kind of "koss" products ?
And the sub that I've mentioned also, not some unknown malfunction .
The only thing that is cheap and not that popular is that amp , that I'll be very thankfull if you'll point me to the right direction of those amps .
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: whiteknight on June 25, 2012, 08:32:09 PM
Does they sound like sh**ty Chinese kind of "koss" products ?

i'll be careful about what you say man. being as we ride chinese/taiwanese scoots......just saying.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 26, 2012, 01:26:38 AM
Do some more researches, I know you'll find something that will suit your need.

I would suggest you get marine speakers instead of conventional ones. These are more water resistant in case you encounter some rain.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 26, 2012, 03:06:14 AM
The idea of putting your entire electrical system at risk, and under strain at best, and using known "cheap" stuff is not a good idea. At least talk to a high end auto stereo shop. Competition level guys will know of bargain priced quality components for your scoot. Look into JBL Marine as Vivo suggested. 3 hundred or less, and you know what you are getting.
Or spend 150.00 and whack it with a mallet.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 26, 2012, 03:53:03 AM
So, here's a summary...


1. Class D amps (for efficiency and less power consumption)
2. Marine speakers and other equipment (for water resistance)
3. Match your enclosure with the speaker (consult a pro)
4. Consider power requirements
5. Use quality wiring kits (consult a pro)


Note: "Pro" does not mean back yard or small time installers. A lot of small time installers/sellers will deliberately wire your system to make it sound mediocre and will talk you into buying additional equipment and spend more. Just a friendly warning.. ;)   


Just to share our show car .....

I used Pyle in this ford focus, lots of em'... too many to list... I can list if you want...


(http://www.concordecac.com.ph/admin/eventImages/IMG_0003.jpg)


Lanzar in the BMW X5....


(http://www.concordecac.com.ph/admin/eventImages/IMG_0001.jpg)


Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: subwoffer on June 26, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
Can someone please share a link to this d class small amps ???
I'll buy the quality items and wirings, it's not the problem . All I need to know is :
1. Good amp to buy an how many watts, to know what will fit my scoot battery
2. and what range of watts should I get the Speakers and the sub , according to the amp I will purchase .
That's it, the rest I'll make by my self .
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 26, 2012, 08:45:56 AM

http://www.eglidegoodies.com/id175.html (http://www.eglidegoodies.com/id175.html)





http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=6246&levelcode=27111&product=882937&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode= (http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=6246&levelcode=27111&product=882937&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode=)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: sc00tcrazy on June 27, 2012, 05:00:17 AM
Hi,

Not sure from reading your posts whether you only wanted this setup only for yourself when you are riding? Or whether it was so a pillion could listen also? Or when you get to a destination having the bike running and the stereo playing?

Not an answer to your question but possibly a different solution (assuming you just want speakers for personal use while riding): I recently picked up a Sena bluetooth headset that installed easily in my helmet. Enough power to last for 8+ hours on a single charge. Sound quality excellent streaming via Bluetooth from my phone. Only cost a little over $100. Maybe something to consider?

Ride safe.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 27, 2012, 05:17:12 AM
Installed in your helmet for music playing? ???

Check your local laws. Illegal in some areas.

I may install one in my helmet for communication purposes and not for continuous music playing. It's very dangerous.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 28, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
+1

Doesn't really need to be illegal to figure out it's a bad idea.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 29, 2012, 01:49:25 AM
+1

Doesn't really need to be illegal to figure out it's a bad idea.

 ;D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 29, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
I used to MX with a Sony Walkman wired to the helmet. I still like the idea.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 29, 2012, 05:11:26 AM
I used to MX with a Sony Walkman wired to the helmet. I still like the idea.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   (http://www.techdigest.tv/gallery/2010/10/SonyWalkman/1st%20sony%20walkman.jpg)

Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 29, 2012, 05:13:44 AM
The black one thank you... But yeah.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 29, 2012, 05:14:39 AM
I had that exact model and color... great sound!!
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 29, 2012, 05:56:25 AM
I had that exact model and color... great sound!!

Compared to what?
 ;D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: zombie on June 29, 2012, 05:59:15 AM
The Craig 8 Track in the car. DuH!
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 29, 2012, 06:00:05 AM
Oh, that!
 ;D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 29, 2012, 06:00:38 AM
Compared to what?
 ;D

Compared to anything in the 70's  ::)  


the 1977 Stereobelt..

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9snvHlM6R4xAQ8XLioGbl5B2qc-YRZH2eLn0D4CNq6PmmM-1qaA)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Cortez on June 29, 2012, 07:13:08 AM
Funny how my stuff was way older then that (well, the technology was anyways) but it
sounded fine..  ;)

Tube amps for teh win!
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 29, 2012, 07:41:43 AM
I've just imported tube amps for cars. They are the best!!! ;D ;D

Though we still have to introduce it to car audio newbies here, I think I'm confident they will like it.  The ear is the judge!

BTW, were the first to introduce an affordable tube amp here...  ;)

Our house brand...

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDdwMmsmrVNlY1b0vFfZ5aeQYxDBXnNqusbUxVfwut5Rb43okYbw)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: jwalz1 on June 29, 2012, 04:40:58 PM
To each their own, and I wish you luck with the project but it sounds like a bad idea.  I have a decent sound system in my convertible, but it still does not sound great once you get some decent wind noise going above 65mph.   It is going to be far worse on a scooter.  I can only imagine where you start cutting to put speakers, unless you want to install forward firing speakers in a top box, six inchers are going to be tough to find a place to put them.  And a subwoofer firing into your butt from below the seat just is not for everybody.

Then there is the issue of messing with a scooter's electrical system for the demand.

At best, you can listen to some tunes over the exhaust, motor and wind noise up to about 40 mph.  At worst you have spent a lot of money to fry your electrical system and render the scooter into a nice big paperweight.  And neither is really going to impress the ladies.

But yeah, good luck.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 30, 2012, 11:28:13 AM
To each their own.





You are right....

you could have stopped here...


Music to  my ears?.....   my scoot's pipe!!!
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: whiteknight on June 30, 2012, 12:12:47 PM
vid vid vid vid.....gooo on post a vid of the pipe music.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 30, 2012, 12:30:58 PM
i have a 4 stroke.....   

jedi speeder bike..


Speeder Bike Chase (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrrrmhUz2o4#)
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: whiteknight on June 30, 2012, 12:49:48 PM
WOW!!! much quicker than mine!!  :P :P :D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: Vivo on June 30, 2012, 01:02:16 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: jwalz1 on June 30, 2012, 02:54:28 PM
To each their own.





You are right....

you could have stopped here...



I really tried to stop raining on his parade, but I did a couple projects like this back when I was in my twenties and I wish someone would have stopped me.  It would have saved me from flushing cash.  Nobody will see it as helping, but there it is.

Hey, maybe he pulls it off and it is awesome.
Title: Re: sounds system project. need help with numbers
Post by: whiteknight on June 30, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
i always thought of it this way......if you want that many speakers and such then get a car. i personaly like to keep weight down in order to preserve performance but then again i do have an Agility. and i wouldnt like the thought of having to replace fried batterys either, fried batterys and fried wallet.