KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: streido on May 02, 2012, 06:57:28 PM
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Been having a problem thats come and gone at times but now ive gone thro 2 new belts in 2 weeks! This is driving me nuts now.
Replaced my old bando stock belt after about 12,000km's when it looked to be getting worn down. Scoot had begun to develop an issue going downhill at WOT, would go along fine till i hit around 40-42mph then it bogged a bit and stopped accelerating for a sec, then pick up again and speed up to 45-48mph. Was the exact same feeling you get going downhill on a restricted scoot where it hits 30mph then feels like its being held back only mine does it at 40-42mph, then it "free's" up and lets it go faster again ??? This happens for a few weeks or a month or so then it wont go past the restricted feeling at 40-42mph, at this point when i check my belt its normally fraying on tbe inside top edge (inner variator side). Last 5-6 months ive gone thro about 4-5 belts!
Once i swap the belt out the issue goes away for a while and i have no restriction at all, it goes smooth all the way to 45-48mph, then it gradually returns over the next few weeks or months, begining like i said by feeling slightly restricting it at 40-42mph, then not going past 42mph/70kmh, then i know my belt will be frayed and begining to go again ???
I was on a 1500rpm torque so last weekend i put that down to a 1000rpm to see if that helped any and put in a new belt, stock size. Went for a few days then i felt the dreaded thing began again. Just checked my belt and its begining to fray already, 3 days old, less than 60km on it :'(
It must be my variator, my boss, or my rear pulley, cant be anything else can it?
Just refitted my old stock variator, and tried that but its still got that restriction feeling at 40-42mph, so im guessing its prob not the variator. Not sure where to go next?
I dont have any new belts left so i had to fit my old stock bando i keep for emergencies but i need to order a new belt tonight, going Bando this time. 9
My idea is its either in need of a new boss, new variator or rear pulley? Either that or its just down to cheap belts? Still i wouldve expected longer than 2-3 days on even the cheapest, nastiest belts? The longest ive gone has been on my Malossi kevlar which lasted a good few months, all rubber belts i tried have lasted weeks at best. I cant keep buying belts, my old bando did 12,000km for f..ks sake so why are all other belts coming apart so quickly?
Dont want to fit a new bando only for it to fray apart but unless i can find another problem i will need to try it cos my old belt im running on temp just now wont last long so i need to swap it this weekend.
HELP!!!!!!!! :D
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5.8 -6 gr rollers, 1000rpm torque spring and new bando belt(stock size or 736long) should be fine ;D
also, measure drive boss and both front and rear pulleys for wear tolerances.
And yes, cheap belt can make some running issues like fraying inner side, some grinding noise and top speed problems. happened to me before
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Yeah, my Malossi belt was 736 long and worked well for me till it frayed apart but it did last several months compared to the cheap rubber belts i had that lasted days or weeks at best.
My suspicion is the boss may be worn or my rear pulley is sticking just before it fully opens? The Malossi belt was only 17.5 wide so that maybe why it lasted longer compared to the 17.7 or 18mm rubber belts ive tried?
Going to look today for a bando at 736 long and 17.5 wide, will go to 17.7 at widest if i have to. Also plan to strip down my rear pulley again at the weekend and recheck that out, o had a quick look the other day and it did feel like it was maybe a little "sticky" at about 3/4-fully open, i took out the torque spring so i could easily move it in ooen and closed by hand to feel hiw it was, so maybe i need to look at replacing that or freeing it up a bit so it opens smoother.
I reckon it now the belt or rear pulley, or the boss, def got to be a combination of one or more of those things. I need a belt now anyway so ill order that 1st and try it, prob get 2 belts in case it frays up. If belt works that good, if it doesnt then ill need to look for a new rear pulley assembly or at least part of it i think.
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I was thinking about sticky rear pulleys and it might be a good idea to strip it and clean completely + apply some grease at the bearings.
this can make belt to slipp and burn it
and for everyday use I advice you bando 728. It'll take you to 75-80 kmh downhill/ 65-70 kmh flat and it's more reliable.
this one is in my scooter now and it's running fine. I'm running bigger scoot now and have no more time/interest in tunning but reliable set up ;D
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On my Bando 729 belt i was getting a steady 70-72kmh on flats, and maybe 75-77 downhills. On my 736mm Malossi i got about 72-75kmh on flats and past 80kmh downhill when it was new ! ! !
I did lose a little acceleration upto 25-30mph on the longer belt but it wasnt too much, just a little so it didnt concern me since my downhill was so good.
Im having trouble finding a Bando 729mm online in the UK, phoned my local Kymco dealer and he can get me them but needs to get me a price so im waiting for him to call me back. Im guessing he will be asking around £20/ belt tho!!!
I prefered a 736 belt with my race variator but at this stage i just want a belt that lasts at least from now till the end of summer :-\
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I payed mine 25 euros and believe me it's gonna pay itsef off ;D
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Just had another thought..........
Maybe my belt is hitting the starter bendix at top speed? I guess that would slow it up a bit and also tear up the belt? Hmmm, i plan on opening her up again tonite if i jave time to refit my race variator, if i do i will strip down the rear pulley and also remove the bendix and try that maybe.
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Ha ha ha, just had kymco dealer call me back, he wants £45 for a belt and the earliest he would have it was next Tuesday! lol. Told him "No, i dont want it fitted mate, i just want the belt", he said that WAS for just the belt, if i wanted it fitted it would be 1hr labour at £45/hr! I actually laughed out loud over the phone when he said it, i told him i had found one online for £18 and asked if he could match it, he couldnt, didnt even offer any discount at all. Usual Kymco. scammer. Sorry i meant dealer. :D
Dont think he was too impressed with my attitude, but then i wasnt too impressed with his prices :D
Going out now to take out the bendix, refit my race variator and strip down the rear pulley. Think i need to just use my best looking old belt for a little longer till i order a new one online later. If i knew his price was going to be so ridiculous i wouldve ordered it earlier today and maybe had it tomorrow. :-\
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Ok so i refitted my race variator and left the rear pulley alone, still the same.
Took out the electric starter bendix, left everything else alone, was a lot better, almost normal again :)
Now i narrowed the problem to the belt hitting the bendix when i run at full speed and it rides at the top of the variator. Im sure someone, Wordslinger?, mentioned not long ago there should be a small bush or washer thing on the end of the bendix where it goes into tbe cvt casing? Mine is missing, didnt even know i was meant to have one there till i read it on here ???
Im am 99% certain this is my issue thats bugged me on and off for months :)
Once i get a new 736mm long belt in and re-test it i fully expect to hit 50mph again, then i can refit the bendix once i find a bush/washer thing for it.
Doea this look ike the part i need for the bendix bush/washer? http://www.chinesemotorcyclepartsonline.co.uk/partno_30421_1782.php (http://www.chinesemotorcyclepartsonline.co.uk/partno_30421_1782.php)
If its not missing a bush then i guess its just going too fast and the belt is riding up too close to the bendix? Stock speed is meant to be 42-43mph so if i go over that my belt MUST ride higher up the variator or i wouldnt get any more top speed which i do, gets 48-52mph downhill on a good day woth the 736 belt, maybe i need to run without the bendix which is a pain really as i like my electric starter?
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you shouldn't run without bendix! why limiting engine starting on kick start
it's done only if one fit bigger variator but not on stock.
from what you said, I think either belt is low quality and stretching too fast or missing bendix washer making problem.or both :-\
install the missing washer(find one with correct diameter and slightly grease it)and new 728x18 belt and problem should be solved ;D
your dealer's price is way too high, but try to find a decent one. avoid kevlar and keep in mind the higher the price, higher is the quality
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you shouldn't run without bendix! why limiting engine starting on kick start
it's done only if one fit bigger variator but not on stock.
from what you said, I think either belt is low quality and stretching too fast or missing bendix washer making problem.or both :-\
install the missing washer(find one with correct diameter and slightly grease it)and new 728x18 belt and problem should be solved ;D
your dealer's price is way too high, but try to find a decent one. avoid kevlar and keep in mind the higher the price, higher is the quality
I ran kevlar for several thousand kilometers, and never had problems. Why should he avoid kevlar? :D
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I ran my Malossi Kevlar for a few months with no probs but once it started wearing down it began to make a mess inside my cvt cover, i heard many stories of them being fine one day then just suddenly going POOF! into a cloud of dust and tiny pieces all over the inside of the cvt making it a total pain and a bitch to strip out the whole cvt and clean it all out?
I did like the kevlar performance, got my fastest speed ever out my A50 on it, but it cant just be put in and left alone, it needs a lot more che king of its condition to avoid it exploding to pieces so that puts me off another kevlar kinda. Rubber SHOULD last a lot longer than kevlar too as kevlar is mainly for racing etc, where parts are run for a race then renewed before the next race, i dont think kevlar is meant for a daily rider street scoot? saying that i know loads of folk run them on street scoots tho too. I put 10,000km on my Agility inthe last 12 months so im not sure kevlar would hold up well to those miles.
I didnt find a UK based supplier yet who has a bando, apart from that kymco joker i spoke to, will look more tomorrow and if it comes down to it i may end up with another Malossi Kevlar if i cant find a rubber one in the size i want, 736/737mm long. 729 wont get me past 75-76kmh even downhill, 736/737 long get me to at least 51-52mph (i ran out of hill or i feel it may have gone faster).
Why cant i run without the bendix tho? It wont damage anything? Just makes it a pain to have kickstart if it stalls or is cold etc? I emailed that shop about the bush/washer so if its what i need i will try that and refit the bendix but i know my belt was def hitting it, the belt has s ars and marks on the topside and where it frayed matches exactly with where the teeth are on the inside of the bendix so it was hitting it, no doubt in my mind at all.
I plan on spending some time over the weekend looking for a quick solution, maybe i can just make a spacer, washer or bush to keep the bendix out the way enough so it wont hit the belt. Sure i can work out something, if not the bendix goes into the bin and i run on only kick start i guess. Speed always wins over convienience for me ;D
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By the way, that restricted feeling i said i got before would have been caused by the belt hitting the bendix and slowing it down, even my revs were low and that had me puzzled for ages.
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The belt seeming fine and then suddently pop is the same at both kevlar and normal rubber, as it will over time be weakened, untill the weakest point brake. And the stories you've heard of the kevlar belts is just like what i saw on my friends PGO comet, when his belt broke. Was a hell of a mess. :)
BTW, Naraku performance belt should be Brando VS ;)
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I tried a Naraku belt about 2-3 belts ago, it lasted about 2-3wks then began to split, tho again maybe that was down to hitting the bendix.
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my belt its normally fraying on tbe inside top edge (inner variator side).
..can you post a pic of this...
...if it's about 1/16 - 1/8 " inch in, it could be that your belt is grinding against the starter bendix...
..a longer belt will tend to do this....1500 contra helps this....
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...if you run a longer belt, with a restricted driven pulley set, it's definately going to happen...
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I ran kevlar for several thousand kilometers, and never had problems. Why should he avoid kevlar?
i had malossi kevlar 748mm and after 1500km it almost started to fall apart, peaces and 3 or4 teeths was missing along the belt +a lot of sticky dust in cvt casing.
and had some slipping issues when cold. def not for everyday use.
orig. bando i installed 7.000km ago is excellent and there's only 1mm of wear in width
Why cant i run without the bendix tho? It wont damage anything?
i must correct myself ;D. you can but it's more comfortable to use electric starter. it'll hurt nothing ;D
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...cant run a 748 inna a50, not even with a 1500 contra...
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though, on 748 malossi and multivar, start and mid range was so,so but was getting me off the scale downhill. approx 90+kmh on tacho.
bando 728mm up to 77-78kmh on long downhill. and as I remember there was some grinding noise on 748 but there was no scratching marks at the top of the belt :-\
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..4ts cant turn enough rpms to benefit from a 748...
..belt "flops" around too much...
..736 is about the max, and now, that might even be questionable...
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...cant run a 748 inna a50, not even with a 1500 contra..
I did with malossi multivar with white torque spring but somethig wasn't right though it's only 20mm longer than stock.
but top speed was great ;D
rubber bando 737mm long is the most reliable and compatible I ran in ag50 also on white torque and 5.8gramm rollers
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..4ts cant turn enough rpms to benefit from a 748..
can be controled with roller weight and torque spring
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but somethig wasn't right though it's only 20mm longer than stock.
.... >poof< ....
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it was good while it lasted ;D
now I'm back on stock agility and yamaha x-max 250i ;D
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Wordslinger,
My rear pulley is def not restricted so thats not an issue. :)
I am 99.999999999999999998% positive its the belt hitting tbe bendix, poss even 99.999999999999999999%
sure in fact. :D
Even 729mm long belts are hitting the bendix now if its in ???
I will post a pic or 2 later tonight, i can see obvious scores on tbe top of my belt surface(where the writing is) and also on the very top edge maybe about 1/2 to 1mm of the inside edge(the edge tbe sits under the bendix) it begins to fray quickly or even rips or tears :o I had put this down to sh**ty belts but now i realise its been the bendix all along, not tbe belts :-[
Its early fri morn here and im just up and in work now ( work? Maybe that should be at "work" lol, i got the friday feeling so doing sweet F all today, finish at 12:30 lunchtime tho :)
Ran to work fine this morn on no bendix, speed up 5mph from yesterday, no restricted holding back feeling at all at 40-42mph like i had before and im still on the same belt that yesterday wasnt right, all i did different was to remove the bendix, so it must be that.
I liked my Malossi Kevlar but i doubt a new one will last anywhere near as long as a decent quality rubber equivelent, i may end up buying one temp for now tho if i cant find exactly the same size in rubber. Need to check my Malossi chart later to confirm but im pretty sure it was 736 or 737 - 17 - 30 kevlar belt i was running before, that was great on my 1500rpm torque spring and 5.5g rollers, best set up i ever had sp far.
Ill post those pics for you to see, on my phone just now so need wait till i get home and send them from my P.C cks im sure i deleted them off my phone once i sent them to the computer.
Cheers guys :)
btw how long do you think it will take me to NOT jump on the scoot and press the electric starter? :D I did it this morn when i 1st started her up, then again when i stopped at an ATM, then again when i stopped at a shop for breakfast lol. Then i have to get back off and kick start it over. Been so long since i used my kickstart i almost forgot it was there :D
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http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-malossi-kevlar-scooter-cvt-belt.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-malossi-kevlar-scooter-cvt-belt.html)
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-50cc-gates-scooter-cvt-belt-for-kymco-agility-50.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-50cc-gates-scooter-cvt-belt-for-kymco-agility-50.html)
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http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-malossi-kevlar-scooter-cvt-belt.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-malossi-kevlar-scooter-cvt-belt.html)
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-50cc-gates-scooter-cvt-belt-for-kymco-agility-50.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/748-18-28-50cc-gates-scooter-cvt-belt-for-kymco-agility-50.html)
Dont want to go as long as those Woodcutter, thanks for the effort tho bro.
736-737 is good for me.
Im in Scotland, not the USA, so i can get a Malossi no probs here, delivered in a day or 2, guess it would be at least 2wks delivery from tbe US to here, if it didnt get lost in transit ::)
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http://www.bando.de/en/scooter-riemen-einfach-verzahnt.html (http://www.bando.de/en/scooter-riemen-einfach-verzahnt.html)
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Dont want to go as long as those Woodcutter, thanks for the effort tho bro
it's for wordslinger ;D
here 748 is for agility50
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streido, try to find quality washer for bendix in your garage, don't buy it.just find one in correct dimensions.
it sounds strange to me that even 728 is hitting ??? but if it's ok without bendix, run it like that. I guess you're a vespa/kick start guy ;D
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Thanks for the Bando site, dont know how i managed to miss it yesterday when i was looking for a Bando belt :-[
I'll give it a good look thro tonight.
I had a look last night in the workshop manual and the parts list manual for the washer/bush on the bendix but couldnt see any listed or shown ??? All i found was that one i put up earlier that i found on the CMPO site, but i emailed them last night for more info on the part.
at. I guess you're a vespa/kick start guy
Yup. Real men Kickstart, electric starters are for ladies and pensioners ;D
I can live without it if i have to, not a prob.
Ill be in my mancave over the weekend doing some experiments and testing, see what i can come up with.
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it's for wordslinger
here 748 is for agility50
..no thanx...
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over the last few months I have had the same proplem I must of put in the wrong size belt .It was hiting the bendix. now im down to kick starting . I know now to always go with the stock size. finding a dif. belt is a pain in the a--. the stock belt dont have numbers to go by so you can just look one up and try to buy.
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over the last few months I have had the same proplem I must of put in the wrong size belt .It was hiting the bendix. now im down to kick starting . I know now to always go with the stock size. finding a dif. belt is a pain in the a--. the stock belt dont have numbers to go by so you can just look one up and try to buy.
Nah, stock belt is too slow :D
Like i said tho blue, even a 729 long belt hit, and that WAS exactly the same as stock cos i measured it before i fitted it. Cant go smaller caos then i wont get over 40mph either.
Then problem is that an Agility 50cc is designed to go at only 42mph max i think so the belt should never ride far enough up to hit the bendix. Since im going 5-10mph over the designed speed it does hit. No big deal, just remove the bendix and its fine, plenty of room in there.
Im even thinking of looking for a slightly larger inner and outer variator off some other scoot that may be able to fit on. Theres a good cm of soce without the bendix that could be filled with variator ;D
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Nah, stock belt is too slow :D
Like i said tho blue, even a 729 long belt hit, and that WAS exactly the same as stock cos i measured it before i fitted it. Cant go smaller caos then i wont get over 40mph either.
Then problem is that an Agility 50cc is designed to go at only 42mph max i think so the belt should never ride far enough up to hit the bendix. Since im going 5-10mph over the designed speed it does hit. No big deal, just remove the bendix and its fine, plenty of room in there.
Im even thinking of looking for a slightly larger inner and outer variator off some other scoot that may be able to fit on. Theres a good cm of soce without the bendix that could be filled with variator ;D
You can buy oversize parts for the transmission to give higher gearing:
Stage6 have made an oversize clutch and clutchbell, which gives higher gearing: http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/koblingskit-stage6-r-t-oversize-112mm-s6-5714002/ (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/koblingskit-stage6-r-t-oversize-112mm-s6-5714002/)
They've also made an oversized variator kit, but if it will fit is questionable: http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/variator-stage6-r-t-oversize-s6-5616634/ (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/variator-stage6-r-t-oversize-s6-5616634/) (uses 19x15,5 rollers) :)
You might be able to find a stage6 dealer in your own country, as they've made several oversize parts as i can see. :D
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You can buy oversize parts for the transmission to give higher gearing:
Stage6 have made an oversize clutch and clutchbell, which gives higher gearing: http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/koblingskit-stage6-r-t-oversize-112mm-s6-5714002/ (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/koblingskit-stage6-r-t-oversize-112mm-s6-5714002/)
They've also made an oversized variator kit, but if it will fit is questionable: http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/variator-stage6-r-t-oversize-s6-5616634/ (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/variator-stage6-r-t-oversize-s6-5616634/) (uses 19x15,5 rollers) :)
You might be able to find a stage6 dealer in your own country, as they've made several oversize parts as i can see. :D
Hmmm..... Interesting Baddi, think i'll look into this idea some more. Sounds like a good idea if it works well.
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Since im going 5-10mph over the designed speed it does hit.
..i consistently run a50s 50-60 mph indicated, with oem belt...
..at rest, belt should ride at the top of the driven pulleys, while fitting snug around the boss...
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Since im going 5-10mph over the designed speed it does hit.
..i consistently run a50s 50-60 mph indicated, with oem belt...
..at rest, belt should ride at the top of the driven pulleys, while fitting snug around the boss...
With my original belt, i run 65 km/h at 9000 rpm (max rpm with standart CDI cut) with 2,5mm left to the edge of driven pulleys, while it will go 72 with 743 belt.
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..no thanx...
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not a suggestion, just some manufacturers list 748 for agility 50 as performance part.
interesting attitute of yours i must say.huuh ;)
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729-18-30 belt after 6-7 days,
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_204227.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_204241.jpg)
Same belt, score marks on top,
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_204349.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_204401.jpg)
Malossi 736-17-30 after about 2-3 months use, just begining to go,
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_204302.jpg)
Score marks on top side of Malossi had simair score marks, thought i took pics of that too but i didnt.
Look at the bendix, its all a little grubby apart from the raised lip in the middle and the flat surface next to it? Looks like this raised part/lip is scoring the belt as it rides on the top of the variator to me since that would clean off the grime.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_205320.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_205312.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/20120504_205301.jpg)
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At least the bendix seems clean. :D
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At least the bendix seems clean. :D
Yup. Nice and polished ;)
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..looks like wear due to a belt that is too long...
...rubbing the bendix...
..ive done it many times, but when the wear starts, i generally put in a new belt...
..yes, longer belts do give increase in top speed...but a cvt can be tuned to get same speeds with a bando belt...
...those 90kmh vids i made were all run with a new bando oem belt....
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interesting attitute of yours i must say.huuh
..i apologize if i sounded rough, but i've tried belts in so many lengths, from so many brands, from kevlar, to "premium", all the way down to chinese gates knock-offs...
..igot probably 30 or more slightly used belts that will run another 10,000 miles each...
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..looks like wear due to a belt that is too long...
...rubbing the bendix...
Yup, as i thought but i cant go any shorter at all, 729MM long is the stock length and that rubs the bendix ???
Im resigned to ditching the bendix now anyway, i want more variator in there instead so im goin to see about maybe using the machine shop at work to try mod another inner and outer variator to fit in, one with an extra 3-5mm would easily fit in i think? Just going to swap in a new 736 belt for now with no bendix to keep me rollin for a bit. Once i take her off the road, prob after summer, i want to strip it down and give it all a complete overhaul and do some major mods on the bodywork, seat and trans etc. Once i got the Vespa finished up i will be running that every day and the A50 will just be for pure fun :D
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Im just happy i now finally know whats been my problem all this time, its driven me insane for ages why me belts all tore apart, no matrer what belt i tried ???