KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: baddi on April 28, 2012, 04:26:06 PM
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Hey guys. :D
I just placed my order at http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_PNP_kit.html (http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_PNP_kit.html) for the electronic fuel injection kit, and i will use this thread to tell what i find, discover or experience. :)
The kit is to convert the engine from carburated to Fuel Injected, which allows the user to tune the ignition and fuel mixture very precisely and even let the ECU (electronic control unit) fine-tune it itself, so the mixture wont be wrong when driving in weather with a diffrent temperature or pressure than the one it is tuned for, as it is the case for carburated engines.
The kit includes (copy-pasted from the web-site, as it would take ages to write) :
1.ECU
2.Harness (including the connectors)
3.Throttle Body and Intake manifold Assembly
• 24mm/28mm Throttle body (including TPS sensor)
• or 34mm Throttle body (with a built-in idle motor, and TPS sensor)
• Intake manifold (GY6 only)
• Fuel injector (38/60/80/126/190g/230g/min)
4.Fuel pump assembly
• Fuel pump (compact size:38mm diameter) (comparative low power: 2A current) (Flow rate: 25L/h)
• Fuel pressure regulator(2.5bar)
• Fuel filter
• fuel hoses and clamps
5.MAP sensor (1.05bar)
6.Engine temperature sensor
7.Intake air temperature sensor
8.CDI - for ECU controlled spark advance (included, for both fuel and spark controls, fully programmable)
9.Oxygen sensor and bungs (included, to have close-loop fuel and self-tuning features)
10.Serial communication cable (to a computer)
11.USB adaptor (included, USB connectivity, and no more RS232 port needed)
12.CD - free tuning software (also downloadable)
I'm not going to explain the parts further, as it took ages to explain all of them in a danish forum, and it will take at least the same time again, if i had to write it in english.
Unfortunately, 5-7 workdays will pass, before i get my kit, but i will gladly answer the questions, which i can, or explain the parts, which you are uncertain of the purpose of. :)
The links for further reading are:
http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=37715 (http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=37715)
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/SE-EFI-tuning-guide.pdf (http://www.ecotrons.com/files/SE-EFI-tuning-guide.pdf)
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/SE-EFI-installation-Manual.pdf (http://www.ecotrons.com/files/SE-EFI-installation-Manual.pdf)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAP_sensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAP_sensor)
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wow man looks quite good. how much was that in total? i guess the engine would be a hell of alot smoother when it runs and the power delivery would be soooo much better than a indecisive carb. make sure you update us on the fitting and eventual running of the kit...good luck man :)
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:o wow a lot to deal with. I have a scoot that I took the petcock of the tank and its doing gravity flow to the carb and just befor the gas filter I put a control knob so you can turn the gas mix up or down just like a gas off and on switch. when the weather gets colder you just turn it up and go. just have to watch you plug chops. lot less to deal with. whats nice about it is it works with almost any carb.
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wow man looks quite good. how much was that in total? i guess the engine would be a hell of alot smoother when it runs and the power delivery would be soooo much better than a indecisive carb. make sure you update us on the fitting and eventual running of the kit...good luck man :)
It was $399 for the kit, and $50 for the shipping, so its not a killer bill. ;)
I sure hope too, that it will run a hell lot smoother, but i have a little concern about the engine at the moment.
I fear, that the piston rings are a little f***ed, as it seems to be unable to hold a pressure, when i manually turn it to the compression stroke, as you can hear in the video below. Also, it had some black flakes in the oil, when i checked yesterday, and the spark plug seems to be getting oiled. I don't think, that the tube from the valve cover are leading too much oil to the filter, as the dipstick showed maximum oil, when i could only empty 0,58 liters out of it, so i poured it all back in, after removing the flakes. :)
The flakes in the oil: http://www.billig-scooter.dk/attachment.php?aid=2666 (http://www.billig-scooter.dk/attachment.php?aid=2666)
The video of the compression stroke: Is it leaking too much air? Kymco Agility 50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBIFyIxJ3k#ws)
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those black flakes look like carbon deposits. not sure about the noise from the compression stroke though. i know mine is experiencing some trouble because it lags low down in the revs and wants to give up on me, plus i have strange whistling noises and somtimes it sounds like the engine is eating itself :-[ have you thought about pulling the engine apart to check the piston rings?
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That is a compression leak. Can you rig a pressure hose to the Spark plug hole? With the piston at TDC you can pressurize the combustion chamber, and listen thru the carb/exhaust/oil fill to see if it is a valve or rings. Bad ass kit Baddi! I've seen them on several forums, and have NOT seen a review or install yet. You may want to get a new exhaust too. Yours will be fouled/rusted inside making for a difficult Permanent weld for the O2 sensor bung. If you simply "tack" it on it will fail. I would also use the largest/strongest battery you can fit in the scoot. It NEEDS full 12v to start well.
That said PLEASE get that f'er running for us!
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Yeah, i was about to pull the motor open yesterday, when i filmed the video, but then i remembered, that i would have to replace gaskets, and i have no gaskets, so i will have to buy some before i can do any checking. :)
Unfortunately, i have no pressure hose, but if you say it's a compression leak, i will check the valves for carbon deposits and check the piston rings, the next time i have time to take the engine apart. :)
And Zombie, i will do everything to get this kit up and running. :D
I've got a friend, who recently got a CO2 welder, so there are 2 possibilities for exhausts to weld a nut onto. One is that i make a hole in the original exhaust, and the other one is, that i go down to the police station, and ask if this: http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-kymco/hand_made_agility_50_r12_4_stroke_2008/10537 (http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-kymco/hand_made_agility_50_r12_4_stroke_2008/10537) is legal, when it got a CE-approval. :)
If it is, then i would have to wait another month, untill i have the money for it, as it costs roughly $150 :/
And yeah, i know, that the injection kit is very illegal, and an illegal exhaust wouln't make it any less legal, but the police often just looks at the exhaust and air filter, and if it doesnt look stock, they will check the rest of the scooter, and i dont want them to take the EFI-kit. :D
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OK, i've learned something in the last couple of days.
The most important thing to keep the fuel mixture at the right point, is to know how much fresh air is in the engine, and this is what is called the volumetric efficiency.
The way to calculate the amount of fresh air in the engine are kind of hard, but i think that i have found a way to know if the engine are taking in more or less air. We can do this with the ideal gas rule, a little like in Ecotrons guide: m = PV/RT where m are mass, p are pressure (measured as close to the engine as possible, V are volume (engine displacement), R are the gas constant and T are temperature measured in Kelvin.
The thing which will be variable, when improving the air flow, letting more air get in and out of the cylinder (volumetric effeciency) are the pressure. When im measuring the pressure in the intake manifold, and then removing the venturi effect of the carburator by using the efi kit, i should see a lower pressure drop in the intake stroke, as the engine wont have to create so big a vaacum in the intake manifold to suck in the air.
So when i get the kit i will test, if the efi kit will allow better volumetric effeciency than the carburator, if streamlining the intake spacer between the intake and the manifold will help, as this is 0,8mm too little in diameter, compared to intake. I will also check, if i can optimise the filter to let more air flow though, and eventually if a Leo Vince exhaust will have any effect (making it easier to get rid of exhaust gasses).
Have anyone got any ideas, tips or comments on this? :D
If help to understand how to measure the Volumetric Efficiency is given, i will be grateful! ;)
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To measure the volume itself you can make a 1 cubic foot box (standard) and fill it with anything you can dump into the engine. (oil) just pour it into the intake, and fill the engine. The remainder will give you the volume inside the engine. I have done this several times, and it will work.
To test before, and after flow rates use a cheap flow meter http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=opera&rls=en&q=air+flow+sensor&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=11555600458485593671&sa=X&ei=MICgT8q1LISm8ASdnsS2AQ&ved=0CLUBEPMCMAQ (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=opera&rls=en&q=air+flow+sensor&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=11555600458485593671&sa=X&ei=MICgT8q1LISm8ASdnsS2AQ&ved=0CLUBEPMCMAQ) mounted at either the intake or exhaust. Then you can swap pipes/intakes/heads ect to note the Diff.
Easy Breasy. (intended pun)
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Ps... All those big words you used makes it sound difficult. It's just air!
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Ps... All those big words you used makes it sound difficult. It's just air!
My big words was the simplified version of the guides i found on the internet. No wonder it confused me xD
But thanks for the link. :) btw, would you place the air flow meter before or after the throttle body or before the air filter? :)
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Since the air filter cannot really be sealed I would go on the front of the carb/throttle body replacing the filter with the meter. I'm sure you can rig up a coupler to it.. I would even try running the engine stock to get a base line idea of cfm for the engine. The more cfm the more power potential. Keep in mind testing at the exhaust side will read higher due to heat/less dense air.
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Since the air filter cannot really be sealed I would go on the front of the carb/throttle body replacing the filter with the meter. I'm sure you can rig up a coupler to it.. I would even try running the engine stock to get a base line idea of cfm for the engine. The more cfm the more power potential. Keep in mind testing at the exhaust side will read higher due to heat/less dense air.
But if i replace the filter, i will not read accurate at all, as the filter is acting as a resistance to the air flow, letting less air go into the engine. :)
A little update:
I'm still waiting for the EFI kit to arrive, and Ecotrons haven't sent me a confirmation, that it is sent, but i sure hope that it is. :)
I found out that the Leo Vince exhaust is street legal for Agility 50 in europe, and i ordered it online by the national hero of scooterparts in Denmark, and i could pick the package up from the local post office less than 24 hours after the order was placed. Today i fitted it (which took time, and hard work) and it sounds AWESOME at low rpm, although the sound flattens out, when the rpm rises, and it just makes alot of noise, like if youre running very rich.
I also ordered a Malossi Kevlar belt, which is 743 long, but i wont put this in, as i have experienced higher gearing (and 70+ km/h), which will save me fuel, and by doing that, make me unable to compare standart carburator to the EFI kit on fuel consumption. :)
When i get the kit, i will do my best to save fuel, as this is my 1st priority, and i will do this by restricting the revs at a little higher than the max effect (instead of the 9000 rpm, the CDI will let me go to, after it is cutted). I will run like this for 1 or 2 full tanks, and then i will install the 743 belt and possibly buy Dr Pulley sliders. :)
The installation of the kit will have to wait untill the end of next week, as the danish police are doing a national razzia against 2-wheelers and illegal scooters are as always the main target).
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I have heard Danish Police are sort of Nazi like in both tactics, and temperament. Kind of kick the door down because the neighbor SAID you were doing something.
Cool deal on the pipe. Does it have the O2 bung already welded in?
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I have heard Danish Police are sort of Nazi like in both tactics, and temperament. Kind of kick the door down because the neighbor SAID you were doing something.
Cool deal on the pipe. Does it have the O2 bung already welded in?
Unfortunately it has not, so i will have to make a hole in the pipe, weld a bolt in the proper size to it, while i make sure to weld properly, so no air can get into the pipe where the weld is. :)
About the police. Nah, somtimes they can be brutal to prisoners and people who resist arrest, and this has lead to 2 deaths in 2008, and then they was told to be less brutal.
The kind of police you are thinking about sounds more like KGB during the cold war. The most tactically brutal police we've got are PET, Police's Intelligence Service, who are arresting people who are a national threat, like some guys who tried to make a bomb, while they lived in the (don't think me a racist) part of Denmark with most immigrants living together. In this area, rumors pass quickly, and get very exaggerated as they pass on. :D I think that PET can be compared to CIA, if you keep in mind, that Denmark are a tiny country. :)
The police i'm thinking of are the regular police, who along with the public and the politicians are very misinformed, when it comes to scooters. The police are just doing their part, to check that people are acting according to the law, and some even think that scooters really aren't build to go over 30 km/h. :o
The politicians just passed a law, which makes it legal for "45 km/h"-scooters to have a trailer attatched. While the 45-scooters run on the road and require a drivers license, and the 30-scooters drive in the bicycle lane, i can understand that, as there aren't as much space in the bicycle lanes. But the reason from the government? That the 45 scooters are better build and have better brakes. This is a lie, as the diffrence is just the thickness of the restriction in the vario. >:(
A little update on the EFI-project:
The package has been sent from Hong Kong to Denmark at 05:23 this night. I dont know what it is doing in Hong Kong, when i ordered from an american company, and i dont know if it is Danish time or local time, but i guess it will be here monday or tuesday, depending on how many places they will have to land the plane to unload cargo. :)
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"The police i'm thinking of are the regular police, who along with the public and the politicians are very misinformed, when it comes to scooters. The police are just doing their part, to check that people are acting according to the law,"
Ok I understand... They are monitoring you posts >:(
The kit is coming from HK because we do that here. Sell sh** we don't have, and have it shipped. Be happy tho it's not going to the US first, and relabeled to send to you. Maybe you can catch the Manufactures name in there somewhere to have direct access.
I'm sure you will figure this out... The O2 sensor will have a tapered "pipe" thread.
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Ok I understand... They are monitoring you posts >:(
Of course they are. ;D
Wow, That business style seems kind of douchy, but yeah, in some way, im glad that it didn't have to travel one way across the world to go back the other way. :D
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With a Moniker like Baddi you should already Know... It's how we roll Bro!
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I recieved the kit today, and i must say, that im both possitively and negatively supprised about the form of the throttle body.
Im possitively supprised, that it has as few or even fewer sharp edges than the original kymco karburator, but im kinda negatively supprised, that it has 2 methods of adjusting the idle. The one on the throttle, as we know it from the CVT carburator. This one adjusts both air and fuel by the Throttle Possition Sensor, but the other one doesnt. The other one is a screw, that when unscrewed lets air go past the throttle, when its closed.
I'm unsure, if i'm even supposed to use the throttle adjusting idle screw, as this cant be reached with an ordinary screwdriver because of the throttle cable, but the air idle screw is very much reachable, as it is pointing upwards. :)
Unfortunately, they forgot to put the CDI in the package, so i'll have to wait another 1½ week for that to come i guess.
See the pictures for the parts, and for most of the parts connected. :)
I'm a little confused tho, about how to install the fuel tubes, as they have me 2 T-parts, but only 2 tubes, but this might show itself when i start installing the package in some time. :D
They even gave me a bolt to weld onto the exhaust for the Oxygen sensor! ;)
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All that Idle screw bother is wrong. The butterfly is actually the Primary air break. That gets set with a feeler gauge, and NEVER changes. The throttle position sender is also set to a specified voltage (usually.5v) and also Never changes. The idle speed is auto set by these two other adjustments, as well as EGT, and engine idle vacuum.
You're gonna be pulling out your hair bro. READ READ READ, untill your eyes bleed. Don't trust too many random posts either. Read some F.I. repair manuals, and service manuals. Stay away from the "how to" guides.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/about/optimax/ (http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/about/optimax/)
Start here, and follow your nose. Merc. Started it all
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All that Idle screw bother is wrong. The butterfly is actually the Primary air break. That gets set with a feeler gauge, and NEVER changes. The throttle position sender is also set to a specified voltage (usually.5v) and also Never changes. The idle speed is auto set by these two other adjustments, as well as EGT, and engine idle vacuum.
You're gonna be pulling out your hair bro. READ READ READ, untill your eyes bleed. Don't trust too many random posts either. Read some F.I. repair manuals, and service manuals. Stay away from the "how to" guides.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/about/optimax/ (http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/about/optimax/)
Start here, and follow your nose. Merc. Started it all
Yeah, direct injection on a 2-stroke is the best invention ever, as it makes it alot more fuel and energy efficient, but unfortunately, the Aprilla SR50 with DiTech costs ALOT and is a hell to repair, if the engine fails (a guy on a danish forum bought a cheap DiTech, to repair, and ended up almost rebuilding the whole engine. The piston alone costs $180.)
I'm unsure on what you are saying, because the idle air is preset for a 125 engine, as this is the base calibration engine at Ecotrons, so i guess, that i should adjust the idle screw lower. :)
I've read Ecotrons manuals, and i'm still in search for a proper book on this subject. :D
A little update on the project:
I've removed the fuel tank from my old agility, so i can modify on this, but when i removed the vacuum valve, the fuel filter remained inside the engine. Also, the thread seems to be M15 or M16, as the inner diameter of the nut is little less than 15mm and the outer diameter of the bolt is a little over 15mm. Should this cause a problem, when installing a manual fuel valve? :)
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That filter is just stuck in there with that rubber grommet. Just grab the filter with some needle nose pliers and pull it out.
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That filter is just stuck in there with that rubber grommet. Just grab the filter with some needle nose pliers and pull it out.
I'll do that during the weekend then. :D
Do anyone know any good books on motors on the internet in PDF version? (Yarr im i pirate.)
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Here is a good place to start... I'll find a few Merc/Yamaha books, and some on programing the fuel control units.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection)
If your kit is calibrated for a 125cc you are already up against the wall. Either your injector will need changing, or the pulse width/duration in the ecu will need reprogramming... Unless it is a "smart" ecu that self calibrates for Vacuum/rpm/egt. I'm not a guru at injection, but I know enough to keep my Marine customers ALIVE. If My engines fail... People CAN NOT walk away.
You will have to use an adapter, or re tap the threads on your tank, as I am SURE your parts wont fit. I would use a manual tap, and a NEW bung welded to the TOP of the tank for return. Much less chance of vapor lok, and your fuel in the pickup will stay cooler/denser than the pre heated return from the injector. Just some basics but alot of links within the links. The last one is Yamaha PDF
http://www.maxrules.com/fixtheory2.html (http://www.maxrules.com/fixtheory2.html)
http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html (http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html)
http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html (http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html)
http://www.synerject.com/modules.html (http://www.synerject.com/modules.html)
http://www.cdxetextbook.com/fuelSys/gasoline/efiOp/basicefiprinciples.html (http://www.cdxetextbook.com/fuelSys/gasoline/efiOp/basicefiprinciples.html)
http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpub.com/TM-9-8000/TM-9-80000173.htm (http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpub.com/TM-9-8000/TM-9-80000173.htm)
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no44/pdf/44gr03e.pdf (http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no44/pdf/44gr03e.pdf)
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thread seems to be M15 or M16,
Forgot. There are two fuel taps used on all kymco 50cc. They are Both m16. One is fine thread, and the other is finer. 1.25, and 1.50. The 2t's use 1.50 I'd cross reference the part numbers on a Kymco parts site to see if yours is the same number as the 2t's
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Here is a good place to start... I'll find a few Merc/Yamaha books, and some on programing the fuel control units.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection)
If your kit is calibrated for a 125cc you are already up against the wall. Either your injector will need changing, or the pulse width/duration in the ecu will need reprogramming... Unless it is a "smart" ecu that self calibrates for Vacuum/rpm/egt. I'm not a guru at injection, but I know enough to keep my Marine customers ALIVE. If My engines fail... People CAN NOT walk away.
You will have to use an adapter, or re tap the threads on your tank, as I am SURE your parts wont fit. I would use a manual tap, and a NEW bung welded to the TOP of the tank for return. Much less chance of vapor lok, and your fuel in the pickup will stay cooler/denser than the pre heated return from the injector. Just some basics but alot of links within the links. The last one is Yamaha PDF
http://www.maxrules.com/fixtheory2.html (http://www.maxrules.com/fixtheory2.html)
http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html (http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html)
http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html (http://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publications/experimental-and-numerical-investigation-of-sprays-in-two-stroke-diesel-engines(351aeb6a-c5e1-459d-98c3-ac7c00718b68).html)
http://www.synerject.com/modules.html (http://www.synerject.com/modules.html)
http://www.cdxetextbook.com/fuelSys/gasoline/efiOp/basicefiprinciples.html (http://www.cdxetextbook.com/fuelSys/gasoline/efiOp/basicefiprinciples.html)
http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpub.com/TM-9-8000/TM-9-80000173.htm (http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpub.com/TM-9-8000/TM-9-80000173.htm)
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no44/pdf/44gr03e.pdf (http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no44/pdf/44gr03e.pdf)
Thanks for the reading, now i have a place to start, as i really haven't been able to find anything technical reading material myself.
The calibration of the engine does not seem to be a big problem, its only the ECU, which are at 125cc as i got a smaller injector (38g/min instead of 80g/min) and the throttle body is 24mm, which in theory should work down to 30cc, but is not recommended to lower than 50cc as the air would have too low velocity. :D
The return fuel is in this case not coming from the injector, which shouldn't get very hot either, as it is indirect injection and not direct injection. :) Instead the fuel comes from the fuel pressure regulator, which sits between the fuel pump and the injector, so i dont think that the return fuel would get very hot at all, but i can be mistaken. :D
I quess i'll have to seach for a bung too, then. ;)
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You are already on top of the ball Bro!. Injector size is almost the same as jetting. BUT they are all different in their patterns. I don't have the numbers you may need but bOSCH is the universal injector KING. Some spray a mist, some spray a stream, and some spray a pellet of fuel. The numbers determine the spray pattern/velocity of the delivery. That is the "jetting" portion of the set up. Jets are 3-5 bucks, and injectors are 15-150 bucks. BUT... Messing with the Junk yard cars can save you alot of money, especially if you throw a few over the fence before going to the check out. (not that I would ever do such a thing...Just saying)
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Forgot to say... Look up piston sizes for let's say Audi/Vw/Chevy?ford/whatever. Most of the 2.8 litre-4.3 litre engines use the same 39-50mm pistons as your scoot. The injector size per cylinder is what you are after. NOT the total displacement of a particular engine.
Another place to look is HGT. I don't know if I can vouch for the guy but He is one of the top Injection tuners in the US if not the world. He specializes in Apprilia SR 50's
http://highgaintuning.blogspot.com/2011/08/high-gain-tuning-releases-its-port-fuel_17.html (http://highgaintuning.blogspot.com/2011/08/high-gain-tuning-releases-its-port-fuel_17.html)
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One more thing before bed..."Unfortunately, they forgot to put the CDI in the package, so i'll have to wait another 1½ week for that to come i guess."
I have been ordering parts for the ZX for the past 6 weeks. Most are here, and I can build today but I am waiting for EVERYTHING to be on my bench before starting.
Keep collecting your bits, and wait. It will turn out MUCH better.
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Sleep tight tuner!
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Hey guys, it has been a while since i started this project but because of school (and parties) i havent installed it before now.
It is now installed and running, but it has very high idle speed with fully closed throttle and the screw which lets air bypass the throttle is also closed. The idle speed was 5000 when i started it and then dropped to 3000 after the warm-up sequence ended, but this was still very high, so i did the rough tuning and tuned it down to half the fuel globally. This way it was only 3000 when the warm-up was in progress and then 1400-1600 when it was ended, but it was still kinda odd in the way it acted. See this video:
Kymco Agility Electronicly Fuel Injected, acting wierd. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrbKGRnB06U#)
At first i was a little afraid to give full throttle as i dont know if the standart calibration gives the right fuel/air ratio, but even with 40 % throttle it was almost as powerful as the standart carburator, so i'm thrilled by even the thought of this kit's unseen rage. 8)
Apperently ignition timing can also be the diffrence between 2000 rpm or 5000 rpm with only 3,1 milliseconds of fuel, so this kit has the potential to be a real beast when it comes to power. Let the tuning begin! ;D
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You can ignore almost all from the last post, as i have just learned that it might just be an air leak causing that much trouble as the system tries to keep the right fuel/air ratio and still hold back the rpm. :p
Can you believe it, it was only a single line of text saying this in an "updated tuning guide". Thats why i missed it, i guess.
I will try to look for air leaks and fix it tomorrow. ;)
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nice one man, once you fix the problem you will have it running as smooth as angel delight.
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It seems as if it is not an air leak, as the rpm doesnt drop when i spray water on the places where i could suspect leaks.
The spark plug is as black as an african tribe, so i will tru to decrease the amount of fuel to get the idle rpm down. :)
Let the tuning begin!
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That is badass! But from the trials and tribulations I have experienced just trying to get mine tuned and running right with your "average" upgrades I can already tell I would be losing a lot of sleep if I attempted something like that.
My hats off to ya for even having the balls to attempt it let alone actually getting it to run hahaha
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That is badass! But from the trials and tribulations I have experienced just trying to get mine tuned and running right with your "average" upgrades I can already tell I would be losing a lot of sleep if I attempted something like that.
My hats off to ya for even having the balls to attempt it let alone actually getting it to run hahaha
As it would still idle high and run (but not as good when the throttle is turned) with global enrichement factor at 0,5 (1 is normal), i know that cutting the fuel down to three quarters or half is possible, but that it shouldnt be cut as much down all over the line, so so far its kinda guessing, but it will be much easier as soon as i find someone to weld a nut to the exhaust, so i can use the O2-sensor to tell me rich or lean and to let it self-tune. :D
Yesterday i drove to work and back, which is 30 km, with the standart calibration (which is a little too rich) and with only 30-40% throttle and even though it was a little slow in accelleration (due to the low throttle), it had the power to hit a topspeed of 63 and keep a stable speed of 57 (all gps measured as speedometer is 10-15% off), which tells me that this has potential to have alot more power than the carburator, as this is in the high end of the variator, but not fully outgeared. :)
The tuning i'm doing now is playing with the Volumetric Efficientcy table, which the ECU uses to calculate the needed amount of fuel. I'm downing the values by 0,1 (which is alot as the VE table has values from 0,4-0,8), which means that the value will be cut by 1/4 at low rpm and low pressure but only cut by 1/7 and 1/8 at higher rpm. If this doens't help me, i have got a backup of the original calibration. :D
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The whole more gas + more air = more power thing just got a whole lotion more complicated...
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You need to do a pressure and vacuum test before you keep guessing between air leak and bad A/F.
While in college I use to rechip ROMs in car ECUs or update EPROMs, ps2,3 xbox, robotic iFles, etc. Ive built quite a few efi set ups, but the problem is the software it utilizes is so different due to copy right lawsuits. The O2 needs to be installed before doing the set up honestly. and if not you need a data logging wideband to co ordinate with the software along with a hand held tach to pin point your A/Fs.
Maybe I can give a bit of advice in a common set up up table. Take note it may not be exactly like your software but replace your terminology with like terms from my base.
First thing that needs to be done is turn the 02 feedback off. Open Idle/Idle target base table/Table. This is where you will set the desired idle rpm.
Lets start with these settings.
-40 to 68=1400rpm
86=1350rpm
104=1325rpm
122=1300rpm
140=1250rpm
158 to 248=1200
This will give a 1200rpm idle when the engine is warm. 158F+ ECT and 1400 when cold -68F ECT.
Get the engine started and idleing somewhat steady. You may have to baby it until you can get it to steady out from the idle feedback working. open idle templates.
You may have an Idle Learned value of +/- 5. This is normal at this point. Adjust the fuel table until you can at least keep the AFR in the 14's when the engine is at full temp. At this point the idle should be around 1200rpm. Monitor the idle learned value,Adjust the Idle% vs Target graph/table at the 1200rpm point up if the feedback is negative or down if the feedback is positive. Adjust unitl the feedback value is staying around 0. Now, go back to Idle/Idle target base table/Table. Change the 158 to 248 value to 1300rpm. The engine should idle up, give is a few seconds to stablize. Adjust the Idle% vs Target graph/table at the at the 1300rpm point until it is around 0. Do this all the way up to 1600rpm adjusting the idle% at every rpm point so that at all commanded rpm points the idle feedback is around 0. Change the commanded idle (Idle/Idle target base table/Table) to 1100 rpm if it can idle some what stable adjust the Idle% until you have near 0 feedback (idle feedback value). Do this at 1000rpm,900rpm,ect. or until you reach an rpm where the engine wont idle. Once this is done you will be able to see the "curve" of the Idle% vs Target graph. Take the rpms point the engine would not idle at and smooth them making the table have a consistant curve. example: 1000rpm=35% 900rpm=33% 800rpm=30% an so on.
Also, adjust the 1700rpm-1800rpm the same way. Make 1900rpm and up all the same % making the curve go flat at 1900rpm-3000rpm.
Now set the idle base back to 1200rpm. At this point the engine should be idleing fairly well. Turn the engine off. Start with these values.
High idle car speed=255
High idle rpm offset=0
High idle wait time=0
Idle off if tp over=2%
Idle on if tp less=2%
Idle feedback above rpm=400rpm
Idle feedback below rpm=1800rpm
Go to Configure/ECU setup/Set throttle range. Follow the instructions to setup
the TPS.This is where it gets tricky!!!!!!!!! You should now have a tps reading of 0.
Go to Setup/Sensors/Throttle position sensor/Options. Monitor the throttle % and move the TPS min. voltage down in .02 increments until the throttle % shows around .5% Example: 0.70 / 0.68 /0.66,ECT. If the throttle % EVER shows 0 some of the idle tables will be turned off!!This is a problem with the software variances and took me years to figure out. The throttle % will change from when the engine is cold to when it is warm. The trick is to never let the Throttle % read 0. If it does the idle goes all to hell. At the same time throttle %must never be above the
2%. Watch it during cold start and when the engine is hot, adjust accordingly to keep is between .5-2%
Go to the Ignition table and set the all the cells near the where the engine is idling to 10 degrees. So below 1500rpm and -5psi will be 10's.... Open Idle/ Advanced idle/Templates change these values.
Idle park target=48%
Idle feedback minimum= -5%
Idle feedback maximum= 5%
Idle feedback rate= 588
Idle extra <12 volt= 0
Open Idle/Advanced idle/Ign vs idle rpm table/Table Use these values.
-325 to -125= 10
-100=9.84
-75=8.44
-50=6.33
-25=4.22
0= 0
25= -3.52
50= -5.98
75= -6.68
100 to 300= -8
note: Im not sure if all of the above settings will work for your software. This is simple Tuning for single cylinder honda 2t using 24mm TB, 42 ccm fi, and MS1 with MS2 software.
If you reopen the Ign vs idle rpm graph you will notice is has some steep curves now. This is what makes the engine idle at a steady rpm. The base ignition timing
is now 10 degrees but when the engine idles up it will retard timing and idles down it will advance the timing. This way the ignition timing can control the idle rpm instead of just using the iac motor. This gives a great idle. hot, cold high,low,turning, everything. This also fixes some cold start issues. If the engine goes to stall the timing will ramp up and rev the engine back up before it stalls.
this reaction happens MUCH faster then an iac motor could ever respond.
Start the engine and let the idle settle, you should notice the ignition timing moving around a lot. More if it had big cams i would think. Mine moves from 2-18 degrees at idle. But now you should have a rock solid 1200rpm idle.
Go back to the idle target table and move the 150F-248F to 1100 rpm and see how it idles also making sure the idle feedback is near 0.
-3 to +2 is ok. It will be best if you can keep it between 0&-2 as it will encourage a higher idle before the feedback responds.
Now try 1000rpm. 900rpm,ect unitl you find the sweet spot that your happy with.
With cams i wouldnt go lower than 1000rpm. Mine will idle at 1000rpm but its very rough being as it needs more scavenging.
Now open the 02 feedback table and set the idle & drivability area's to 14.7AFR and turn the 02 feedback on after you get it welded in.
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Yeah!!! Do all that!~
NICE!!!
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or call a marine mechanic on scooter to do the stuff.. ;D
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Two Maybes?? I would still be looking for that air leak... / You may need a smaller injector
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To Lovemykymco: Thanks bro! :D Even though my software is totally diffrent, in many ways, i will try to see how i can incorporate that in my tuning, but i only have one field called "desired idle rpm", so this is not dependent on temperature and all the sensors are calibrated from the producer, who are also the same who has made the software. :)
When the tps = 0, the tps based tables will go offline but the Volumetric Efficiency table are only dependent on Manifold pressure and rpm, so i guess this is the one i should adjust to get the fuel down. ;D
But you might be right, that i should search for an air leak even more. The other day i were doing some mechanics work for a guy, and found out that his exhaust valve were burned to half thickness in less than 13.000 km, so i will check my valves for leaks asap. :D
I already have the smallest injector, 38g/min. ;D
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You can have whatever size injector you want, the ECU will down cycle it on closed loop. Just like any efi system built after 1990 it will balance itself out at stoich. if its meant to run on 28cc/m and you put in a 56, the ecu will down cycle as far as it can then it will change the timing to make it stoich. Id say around 89 was when everyone used mass produced digital efi vs analog efi like ones that used flapper style AFMs and speed density junk. Yours is digital being as it has a MAP sensor. With old flapper style you could change the armature tension to use bigger injector or add a resistor, then came along digital and solved many problems.
With tunable efi you can even change the duty cycle yourself but in the end it will learn its 14.7/1 ratio anyways and should supersede your input once it goes to close loop. Your idle is controlled through your VE table, MAP sensor(pressure sensor) and TPS input, I would try setting your TPS position to .5% instead of 0, or like you said it will go offline and its just basing your idle speed off of preset maps if youre not able to access the fuel parameter map. Your VE table is for simple base calculations and more than likely controls the ignition spark timing as well.
If I were doing this swap I would start over from the beginning and bring everything back to base out of the box settings. If you can save your current setting I would do this as well. Make yourself a folder for them as you will have a lot.
I would make it so it cant hold an idle and work up, not down. Doing it this way it will force the numbers on the VE table to make themselves clear and you will know your absolute base.
If the program is open to download i can DL it and run it through an emulated program if I can find the one for yours. Ill do a little research later on tonight.
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Ultimately I think you have an air leak tho and should check this first. Even if you had a burnt up exhaust valve(or poor adjustment) it still wouldnt make it idle that high, it would probably not idle thanks to overlap.
Only a couple things will cause it to idle high and I honestly would think air leak first for sure.
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Today i've made an arrangement with an automechanic to weld a nut to the exhaust so i can finally fit the lambda sensor. I will have the exhaust back on monday and will continue tuning next week. :D
I tightened all nuts today to eliminate air leaks between the throttle and the engine and the idle rpm came down to 2200 with the idle screw fully screwed in.
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The O2 sensor will change everything. I didn't realize you had it out. It will never run right without it. Like taking the float out of a carb.
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The O2 sensor will change everything. I didn't realize you had it out. It will never run right without it. Like taking the float out of a carb.
I didn't have a wealding machiene, so so far it have just been running open-loop with the standart calibrations.
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That will change everything for you.
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Hey guys, i am an unlucky idiot once again.
Here the other day, i got a piece for the injection, which i had broken in the mail. (not enough clearance between saddle compartment and injector, so a piece of plastic broke).
I installed the EFI kit along with the O2-sensor, but it kept reading lean, no matter how much fuel i added, even to the point where it couldn't rev properly, which was double the fuel than standart calibration, so this confirmed my earlier fear of an air leak. All the times i've checked for air leaks before by putting my finger in the exhaust and and turning the crankshaft by hand or spraying air at the engine while running, but the engine felt like always and didn't react to the water, so i pulled myself together and opened the engine for the first time ever and saw what is on the pictures.
When i was removing the bottom gasket, it started raining and i had to get the scooter into the garage. I then saw that i was going to be late for work, and quickly assembled the engine, forgetting to remove the last of the gasket, so i drove 200 meters before it had thrown all of the oil onto the ground and the engine stopped.
Fortunately i've got another cylinder + piston, which has only driven 70 km, so tomorrow i'm going to change to that, and hopefully i will experience a better and more stably running engine. :)
The piston/cylinder might have been broken when i had only driven a couple of hundred kilometers, as an idiotic salesman sold me 15W40 oil in the winter instead of 10W40, and i had to drive it like that for a whole month due to lack of money. I have also driven with the standart #80 jet, as when i changed to #82 after driving a month or like that(cant remember when i did it, but it was cold as hell) it wouldn't run very well, so the engine might have been ruined back then already. :/
Anyway, i'm going to fix it tomorrow, and when it runs well, i will try the 7g dr. pulley i've just gotten in the mail and i will see what happens.
As an effect of me ruining an engine, i will take back all i've ever said about small jets, as i have possibly also ruined my first agility, when i were driving an open air filter with the #84 jet, even though it was the jet it would run with the best back then, so now the only active statement about jets and open filters are that you should use 100+ jets, as you then won't burn the engine! ;D
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Bummer. Just when you were getting there. At least you got some spare parts already to replace them, hopefully that works.
I was surprised when you said before about the 84 jet on an open filter, that def seemed way too small. Mine is running good on the 92, seems almost perfect. Think a lot comes down to the filter type/size, your altitude, the humidity and temp when it comes to the jetting on these open filters, thats why no 2 folk on here use the same size.
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Bummer. Just when you were getting there. At least you got some spare parts already to replace them, hopefully that works.
I was surprised when you said before about the 84 jet on an open filter, that def seemed way too small. Mine is running good on the 92, seems almost perfect. Think a lot comes down to the filter type/size, your altitude, the humidity and temp when it comes to the jetting on these open filters, thats why no 2 folk on here use the same size.
Yeah, but i've never used anything but standart filter on this engine, so the engine being like this must be because of some oil, fuel or cooling problem, but there are one thing i have to get straight now before it hurts another cylinder/piston:
When i tap all the fuel off so it only drips once every 2 secs, i can only fill 0,6L oil on it, before the dipstick shows full. Should i fill the 0,7L oil the manual say or the 0,6L the dipstick say? :)
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I never need the 0.7l of oil either, i use about the same as you did. I put a mark on my oil filer can so i just use that now, that takes it up full. Remember too much oil is can bejust as bad as too less oil.
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I never need the 0.7l of oil either, i use about the same as you did. I put a mark on my oil filer can so i just use that now, that takes it up full. Remember too much oil is can bejust as bad as too less oil.
Yeah i know, the pressure will be too high and the gasket/sealing between the two halfes of the engine will work its way out over time. :D
But my thought was, that less oil will be able to absorb less energy, and the engine will be hotter. Just to narrow down what could have given me the cylinder/piston damage that i've got now, because if it is too thick oil at too low temp when it was new, i am going to complain to the people who sold me the oil and told me that that oil was what i needed, and hopefully get something for free or on discount or whatever. I just have to be sure what possible causes to the engine damage could be, because the first agility i had have been driven through 2 very tough and much colder winters than this with the standart #80 jet without being damaged when owned by previous owner. :p
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I would say an air leak is seriously the problem, or your running very lean(usually caused by air leaks), I would also assume the score marks near the skirt on the piston are from seizure when you lost your oil.
I would not think 15 weight would cause any of these scenarios. Did it have problems starting? It would have low compression I would think since so much blow by.
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The blow by is what caught my eye. The rings were never set before it was run at wot. That will prevent the rings from ever seating... I ran about 250 miles on the 87cc kit before ever opening it up. The kit now has about 1000 miles, and you can still see most of the cross hatch, and there is no apparent blow by.
The oil is not the culprit. Where did you find the air leak? I would also invert the head, and fill the combustion chamber with Brake clean to be sure your valves/seats are in good shape. The leak MUST be in the intake tract. There is no where else that could induce air.
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The blow by is what caught my eye. The rings were never set before it was run at wot. That will prevent the rings from ever seating... I ran about 250 miles on the 87cc kit before ever opening it up. The kit now has about 1000 miles, and you can still see most of the cross hatch, and there is no apparent blow by.
The oil is not the culprit. Where did you find the air leak? I would also invert the head, and fill the combustion chamber with Brake clean to be sure your valves/seats are in good shape. The leak MUST be in the intake tract. There is no where else that could induce air.
I've changed cylinder/piston and gaskets, but the problem keeps on. I've checked for air leaks between the throttle and the engine over and over again, but never found any.
The RPM are constantly high, but today i found a way to keep them down. If i cut the fuel to half the standart calibration and screw the idle screw out, the idle will be at 1200-1600, but the O2-sensor show lean mixture. If i then screw the idle screw in a little, the rpm will slowly rise until hitting some critical point, where it rises uncontrollably to 4-5000 rpm and even with the same amount of fuel, the O2-sensor now shows rich. It is like this all the way, that no matter how little fuel it gets, it shows rich when the rpm are high.
I am going to buy new piston rings next week, when i get my paycheck, and then it will hopefully work. :)
I would say an air leak is seriously the problem, or your running very lean(usually caused by air leaks), I would also assume the score marks near the skirt on the piston are from seizure when you lost your oil.
I would not think 15 weight would cause any of these scenarios. Did it have problems starting? It would have low compression I would think since so much blow by.
The pictures are from before the oil loss. I lost oil because i stressed and f***ed up, when putting it back together, because i was late for work and the oil loss is fixed when i installed new piston/cylinder and gaskets. :)
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Step by step this... What is the idle screw? Is it the primary air break adjustment for the butterfly? ... Think I have the issue... The set is callibrated for a 125. The butterfly needs to be EXACT. I think your leak is the butterfly. There is an air hole in it right? Try using some TINY rubber grommets to restrict that hole. Then you may be able to compensate with the fuel pressure/map. If that gets you in the right direction have the hole welded/brazed, and drill it to the appropriate size.
Also just to be sure try the o ring around the injector. I have cut a few in the past when seating them.
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by cutting fuel flow you are changing its pulse width, eventually the injector will jam by doing this. too little or too high of fuel pressure can jam pintle style injectors. The ECU will still try to cycle it the same regardless of pressure, it is the pulse length (the width) that you are changing. It is no longer spraying a fine mist but more of a dribble. I would definitely recommend against doing this again. You are not having a fuel pressure issue. Your O2 should show lean condition when it is idleing, it should hunt between 12-14 AFR then when under a load (moving) it will balance itself to stoich unless it needs calibration.
1) You may have an injector issue from the start
2) May be bad ECU
3) May be bad user input interface with ecu
4) May be bad fuel pump
5) May be compression issues and the only way for the ECU to think its ok is at a high rpm (very unlikely)
6) Still air leak probable
What I see as an outsider who hasnt seen it run is that it runs but rich at 4-5k rpms, so I would start adjusting your fuel table (VE) at those rpms. And go back and check to make sure the ecu retains those values you set.
do not use the fuel pressure as a means to lower rpm. The injector will get ruined.
a 4-5k rpm would mean a massive air leak somewhere if it were an air leak. I would replace every O ring and gasket on it, not just inspect it. This is an engine that can be ruined by failure to tune properly. But honestly for that much rpm difference I would think the leak would have been found by now, who knows maybe zombies on to something with the air bypass on the flap. Most kits dont have an air bypass hole though and thats why they have a screw/bleeder style bypass.
Any way it goes it still comes back to the ecu not performing as it should. There should be a self learn cycle on it, if not I would be concerned of the quality of the program. Since you have had this issue from the start it would be safe to assume there could be a hardware or software issue, if all mechanic parts and seals check out. It is not an intermittent issue so it HAS to be one of the constants.
Have you contacted the company that produced the ECU? I would try to directly contact them or the company that provided the software.
If you can upload the software program to some upload site i can take a look at it. Or if theres a site for the DL already link me to it.
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If you are the first to buy this kit and install it on a 49cc then you may just be in for a long head ache, but dont worry it will get figured out.
can your ECU tell you voltages of the MAP sensor and the TPS? I would have tried to adjust the tps first really now that I think about it. lol. But either way see if on the data logging part of the program what the voltages are and cross reference them to what you know they should be. IE. if throttle at full closed the TPS should show 1 or 5 volts depending on style but it should not read 2 or 4 volts, you know what I mean?
If you can run a data log session and post it on here it may help us. In your video it did not show much other than the movements, I need real value of what is what and what it is doing. The real time graph sucks compared to numerical reading IMHO, so if you can show that rather than the graph it would be best. Make sure to label or tell us EXACTLY what reading we are seeing and what is the max and minimum reading value possible, what it should be based off of mathematical logic. Sorry I cant explain it better, i tried 10 different ways and ended up erasing them all lol.
I need these values. Actual reading (real time) what it reads when idling, minimum and maximum for what it could be 1-5v 5-1v 1-12v etc., what it should be, not what you are seeing, for the following
fuel pressure reading if possible
timing values at 1k rpm and at 4k rpm these are in the data log
MAP sensor values (bar #)
TPS values (they should stay constant and not fluctuate as you are NOT touching the throttle)
VE table %s at 600-6000 if you can
A/F ratio at idle give detail of full fluctuation in real values not description ie. at 1080 rpm it is 12.7 fluctuated to 13.1 or if it stays at 13.1 most and fluctuates down instead of up At 4k rpm it is at 15.1 going down to 13.1 or vice versa.
make sure the lambda is running in its loop also. I saw it data logged for you but make sure its not just operating as a data log only.
Once again sorry just not sure how to explain this all online.
This should be done at an idle only and absolutely no touching the throttle, we will figure out what your idle issue is, and go about it this way, I would rather work down than up but gotta do this first this time to rule out any issues.
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Zombie: The idle screw is a screw that bypasses air so it goes past the closed throttle.
LMK:
- The Lambda-sensor is a narrowband, so i cannot see the AFR, but only if it is lean, rich or just right.
- The fuel pressure is generated by the fuel pump and kept constantly by a fuel pressure regulator, which lets fuel go back into the fuel tank when the pressure rises, so i am not touching this. I am only manipulating the pulse duration.
If you have any uploading site (damnit that megaupload were closed) i can upload the tuning guides and the program together with logged data, so you can play it back. Both voltages and what they mean are logged but can only be shown by the analyser program.
There are a self-learning part of the program always active, but i cant really see it doing anything and i suspect that it will only learn and calibrate for small changes, which i suspect that this isnt. :/
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Not really anything to do with the injection, but with the rest of the bike:
The speedometer have never been working (factory flaw, i forgot to get fixed before i tried to fix it myself), so now less than 5 hours after my paycheck went in, i bought a Stage 6 speedometer (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/elektronik-stage6-speedometer-s6-4080-wh/) and of course i had to buy new handlebars (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/styling-str8-bartstyr-str-003-78-bk/) and new front shield (http://www.speedline.dk/da/scooter/styling-bcd-streetfightermaske-l-bcd032-po-3643/) ;)
It wont make it run better, but it will hopefully greatly improve the looks and with the speedometer, i will be able to see speed, rpm, engine temp, time and accelleration (time to reach some speed) and it will be awesome. :D
Unfortunately, i've not got enough money to buy new handles or mirrors, so it will look like some odd mixture between stock and styled for the next month. Hopefully nothing will get stolen, when i'm at work after the summer vacation is ended. ;)
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Just a thing that crossed my mind :
You did cut off the secondary air system, did you ?
If it's still connected, the air that's sucked into your exhaust through the reed valve will definately screw up the readings of the narrowband sensor....
And another thing :
Are you using the OEM camshaft, or some high-rpm racing camshaft ?
As far as I understood, a racing camshaft can have so much valve overlap that a lot of fresh air/fuel mixture is flushed straight into the exhaust at idle, and the oxygen in that will also confuse the system...
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Just a thing that crossed my mind :
You did cut off the secondary air system, did you ?
If it's still connected, the air that's sucked into your exhaust through the reed valve will definately screw up the readings of the narrowband sensor....
And another thing :
Are you using the OEM camshaft, or some high-rpm racing camshaft ?
As far as I understood, a racing camshaft can have so much valve overlap that a lot of fresh air/fuel mixture is flushed straight into the exhaust at idle, and the oxygen in that will also confuse the system...
Yeah, i've blocked off the SAS, as it would cause it to be false lean all the time, and since the SAS are not needed when there are no catalyst in my Leo Vince, i've blocked it but i will definately check that for a seal aswell. ;)
I am using OEM camshaft, since compressing the springs further would stress all the components more and it would lower the power output at low rpm along with the possibility of a premature engine failure. ;D
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Have you done a compression test? Maybe a leaking Exh. Valve? Try compressed air in the cylinder thru the spark plug hole, and see if it is escaping thu the exh. (leak down test)
Nice goodies by the way... I LOVE new parts.
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Have you done a compression test? Maybe a leaking Exh. Valve? Try compressed air in the cylinder thru the spark plug hole, and see if it is escaping thu the exh. (leak down test)
Nice goodies by the way... I LOVE new parts.
I have not got the equipment for that compression test, unfortunately, but i have put a finger in the exhaust hole of the cylinder head and it did not feel as when the exhaust valve is leaking. Also, there seems to be oil on the spark plug.
The new parts came today, and great disappointment.
To fit the handlebars, an adapter of some kind is needed, but these are not made for the agility. I also just learned that fitting this kind of handlebars will be illegal, unless the adapter and the handlebars are one piece (which they are not).
Also, the wires for the engine temp sensor broke closest to the sensor today (how, i do not know) and the sensor is now unfunctional. :/
These problems would all be fixable, if it wasn't because i just spend all my money for the next month on the handlebars and the speedometer. :(
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It's like falling down a mountain when it starts turning on you. One after another till the interest is vanquished... Keep your chin up, and find one part/project to complete. That ALWAYS lifts my spirits, and gets me tweaked to do more.
As for the bars... You my fine sir are the only person alive that knows of that law. If you have to comply but don't want the cost/hassle... Fake a weld with some JB Weld... Paint over it, and no one will ever know
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It's like falling down a mountain when it starts turning on you. One after another till the interest is vanquished... Keep your chin up, and find one part/project to complete. That ALWAYS lifts my spirits, and gets me tweaked to do more.
As for the bars... You my fine sir are the only person alive that knows of that law. If you have to comply but don't want the cost/hassle... Fake a weld with some JB Weld... Paint over it, and no one will ever know
For some reason, my standart speedometer started working, now 6000km after purchase, so the handlebars and the stage6 speedometer are now 2nd prirority and i wont spend anymore money on that, until the EFI works fully, and possibly that i've got the 4-valved head from a baotian.
I just discovered, that after changing oil rings and driving 2-300 km very gently with the O2 sensor in place, the spark plug is no longer black and sooted, but the rpm are still high in idle and the O2-sensor reads rich in idle. Tomorrow, i will drive to school with my computer plugged in and recording data, so i can see if the mixture is also rich while riding normally.
I now have 2 possible explainations for my issue: 1, there's no leaks, but it has a very rich mixture at idle, so it works like a choker on a carburator and gives high rpm. Or 2, The rich mixture reading may be caused by too much exhaust gas in cylinder (there are a restriction in the Leo Vince, to make sure that it wont raise power, compared to the original), which makes the engine unable to make a complete combustion and then the high idle rpm are caused by an air leak. :p
So far, i've found nothing, but now i will have the computer to record data during longer rides, and i will contact local mechanics to hear what a cylinderleak-test would cost me, since i dont want to buy a €107/$132 for a tool, that i will possibly only use once. :)
I will hopefully then be able to learn, if it is a mechanical or a tuning issue.
I wont remove the restriction in the exhaust if it is not neccersary to get a full combustion, since this exhaust is legal for the ag50 in Denmark as long as this restriction is in. :D
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What restriction are you talking about in your Leo Vince? Is this a restriction that you have put in or do Danish Leo Vinces have to have such a restriction by law?
I have never heard of anyone, including Leo Vince themselves, say that a Leo Vince exhaust is restrictive? Quite the opposite in fact. :-\
Why would any company make a sports exhaust and then restrict it? I dont get that ??? Nobody would buy it and instead stay with sto k?
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Your injection kit will have a cold start module or IAC (idle air control) that may be staying activated because of a temp sensor you are not using. Your kit should have at LEAST one temp sender. You could trick it with a resistor to ground to read the correct temp.
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With the 24/28 mm TB the efi is the AIC and would be ran from closed loop sensors, the MAP and the tps will determine the VE tables placement for idle. Seems the bigger one has a AIC built in. I would start this project over from ground up...
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Map, and TPS make no sense. How would it know warm start from cold start? Are you SURE there is no temp sender input? Maybe not included but I believe it HAS to have a temp sensor.
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From the top:
The restriction in the Leo Vince exhaust is a cone, fitted with a single weld in the start of the pipe, very close to the motor. It is placed there, since it is illegal to use exhausts, which can up the power, so the cone will restrict the emptying of the cylinder, so it wont be able to give more power than the original. On the Technical Drawing (http://www.leovince.com/files/F4319/DT-7470.pdf) it is called reduzione internal (intern reduction).
The temp sensors are now both functional. Both the engine and the intake air temp sensors are working properly.
The rpm are very high at the start, due to the warm-up proces, but lowers itself to around 3k after a couple of minutes, and some time later, it starts to oscillate.
After riding and recording data, i can see that it reads rich all the time, unless when i quickly let go of the throttle, and it for a very short time kills the fuel. I will now remove the restriction in the exhaust, to make sure, that it can fully empty the cylinder.
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I didnt see any reducer or cone on mine but now im going to check it at the weekend to be sure.
I take it this is on all Leo Vince exhausts and not just in Denmark?
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Yes he has temp sensors, but the idle is controlled thru the maps sense of pressure in the intake, and by the position of the throttle relative to the ve table after warm up. Temp sensors would have shown themselves as bad through the ecus learn cycle. If its showing its rich throughout the entire rpm you have a bad table. Start turning them down. I'm guessing you tried that? Have you talk to Andy, the developer for this program? I emailed him about building him a stimulator board to sell seperately. He's very nice and willing to help, just emqil him.
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I didnt see any reducer or cone on mine but now im going to check it at the weekend to be sure.
I take it this is on all Leo Vince exhausts and not just in Denmark?
You can see the cone in the start of the exhaust. I don't know if it is only in Denmark, but since the package hadn't been opened between Leo Vince factory and me and since the restriction is on the technical drawing, i suspect that it is world-wide. :)
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Doesn't seem like something useful to me. I've never heard of any application of such a thing to improve performance or efficiency in any way - I'm pretty sure that it's meant as a restriction...
I guess it has something to do with the EU homologation system to make some versions of their exhausts legal for road use in the whole of the EU...
Is there a mark with an "E" in a circle, followed by a number like "15" or something, imprinted somewhere on the exhaust ? An unrestricted tuning part will never have this mark, while this mark is kind of mandatory with a road legal one in the EU...
Whatever the reason is and whether it's shipped the same way to other countries, I wouldn't hesitate for a second and rip this silly cone out of there immediately...
(but then again, I tend to switch back and forth all the time from being impulsive to trying to do the wise thing.... ;D )
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Doesn't seem like something useful to me. I've never heard of any application of such a thing to improve performance or efficiency in any way - I'm pretty sure that it's meant as a restriction...
I guess it has something to do with the EU homologation system to make some versions of their exhausts legal for road use in the whole of the EU...
Is there a mark with an "E" in a circle, followed by a number like "15" or something, imprinted somewhere on the exhaust ? An unrestricted tuning part will never have this mark, while this mark is kind of mandatory with a road legal one in the EU...
Whatever the reason is and whether it's shipped the same way to other countries, I wouldn't hesitate for a second and rip this silly cone out of there immediately...
(but then again, I tend to switch back and forth all the time from being impulsive to trying to do the wise thing.... ;D )
Yes, for some reason they've got it approved in Luxemborg. On the Type Approval (http://www.leovince.com/files/F20387/CO-7470.pdf) it sais that it is approved to have low noise and a good exhaust gas filtering system.. How they got it approved is still a great big mystery to me!
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I havent had time to take mine off yet to check it but from memory the end of mine looks different to yours :-\
Maybe im wrong tho. Im def going to have a look as soon as i get some free time, had a lot on lately, maybe try at the weekend. Will post a pic when i do to compare them. If it is there then its getting drilled out before the exhaust goes back on tho :)
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I havent had time to take mine off yet to check it but from memory the end of mine looks different to yours :-\
Maybe im wrong tho. Im def going to have a look as soon as i get some free time, had a lot on lately, maybe try at the weekend. Will post a pic when i do to compare them. If it is there then its getting drilled out before the exhaust goes back on tho :)
Drilled? Forget that!
Just take a flat screwdriver and a hammer and hit the weld a couple of times. And don't be drunk while you do it, you will hit your hands. ;)
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I missed your point about the closed loop temp/cold start. It sounds like once you re install the pipe all you have to do is shorten the duration of the pulse across the board. I'm sure the program has access. I still don't understand the oscillation in rpm... Perhaps just a by product of running rich. Sounds like you pretty much have it.
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Is it possible that the oscillation is caused by the injector being too large to spray fuel in the extremely small amounts needed at idle ?
I can imagine that it's only dripping instead of spraying at idle, which means that it will take more time for the fuel to atomize, the control unit will then see a lean condition because of this delay and it will increase the amount of fuel, which will be too much of course - and when all of the dripping fuel has eventually reached the cylinder, the control unit will detect a rich condition, starting the loop all over again and again....
Is it possible to switch off the control loop below a certain rpm and use a fixed setting at idle rpms ?
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Is it possible that the oscillation is caused by the injector being too large to spray fuel in the extremely small amounts needed at idle ?
I can imagine that it's only dripping instead of spraying at idle, which means that it will take more time for the fuel to atomize, the control unit will then see a lean condition because of this delay and it will increase the amount of fuel, which will be too much of course - and when all of the dripping fuel has eventually reached the cylinder, the control unit will detect a rich condition, starting the loop all over again and again....
Is it possible to switch off the control loop below a certain rpm and use a fixed setting at idle rpms ?
I don't think so, since this is the smallest injector sold, and it have succesfully been used for engines down to the size of 25cc, but there were some problems with it being rich at that little motors. :p
The loop goes like this: Idle is stable at something high during warm-up. Then the fuel is cut a little down when warming up, and the idle slowly falls to 2200-3000rpm. Then at some point, when the warm-up process is done, the lambda sensors output slowly raises from 0,46v (rich) to around 0,9v (still rich), and when the voltage signal comes up here, it starts to try to correct the fuel real-time, by cutting one forth of the fuel away. On the way, dropping from no fuel cutting to that, the rpm raises, and when the fuel is cut to 75% of normal, the rpm quickly hits 4-5000 rpm, where it forcefully cuts all the fuel untill the rpm are at 2200-3000 again and the loop goes back. :/
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What size is the throttle body ? Airspeed could also be a factor in atomization...
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I don't think so, since this is the smallest injector sold, and it have succesfully been used for engines down to the size of 25cc
The number of cc's of the engine might not be the dominant factor that it seems to be....
The amount of fuel and air needed at idle for any engine will be determined by the amount of power needed to keep that specific engine at it's idle rpm, which will depend on factors like the sum of all friction at all moving parts, external loads like alternator and drive belts, and also very important and very engine-type specific : the efficiency of that engine at that rpm...
It might well be that your engine is more efficient at lower rpms and/or sees a smaller mechanical load - and therefore needs less fuel at idle - than the 25cc ones they are talking about.... (what kind of application is that anyway ? 25cc doesn't sound like a regular kind of vehicle to me, and are they talking about two stroke engines here ?...)
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The number of cc's of the engine might not be the dominant factor that it seems to be....
The amount of fuel and air needed at idle for any engine will be determined by the amount of power needed to keep that specific engine at it's idle rpm, which will depend on factors like the sum of all friction at all moving parts, external loads like alternator and drive belts, and also very important and very engine-type specific : the efficiency of that engine at that rpm...
It might well be that your engine is more efficient at lower rpms and/or sees a smaller mechanical load - and therefore needs less fuel at idle - than the 25cc ones they are talking about.... (what kind of application is that anyway ? 25cc doesn't sound like a regular kind of vehicle to me, and are they talking about two stroke engines here ?...)
My bad. It's 35cc radio controlled cars and garden tools that are the smallest they've fitted it on. :p
Well, right now, i'm just waiting for the money to do a cylinder-leak-test, since it would give the engine more air, so too rich mixture still would give high rpm. My line of thought could also be that the raise in rpm when the fuel is cut down is that it gets closer to the optimum AFR, but still gets too much, so it gets high rpm. The problem with this is, that it seems imposible to get the fuel mixture right by cutting down on the global fuel enrichment (fuel is always multyplied by that factor, so when it is normally 1, it doesnt make any difference, but around 0,65 it goes from being rich to being lean, without being right at any point). :)
Yes, the resistance in idle are very low on any engine, but with the throttle closed and the air bypass screw fully screwed, it shouldn't have enough power to keep idle at all ???
By the way, the last 3 loads of fuel have given me the result of 30 km/l, which is really not much, so the high idle rpm and the rich mixture have really hit the fuel economy... But that will hopefully get much better when i get it all figured out. ;)
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Maybe try some different resistors on the Lambada line. If you can lower the voltage it will fool the ecu. I've done that on Marine engines where there was NO EGT sender. I forget the math for figuring voltage/resistance but that's on the web.
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Now that's a clever hack that someone with my background in electronics can appreciate !! ;D
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My Project Electronic Fuel Injection: Plunk down $3700 for a Honda PCX. Done in minutes! :lol:
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Done in minutes ? I would like to take over your job then for a while, since I certainly wouldn't be able to make $ 3700,- in a few minutes in my line of work... ;D
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Maybe try some different resistors on the Lambada line. If you can lower the voltage it will fool the ecu. I've done that on Marine engines where there was NO EGT sender. I forget the math for figuring voltage/resistance but that's on the web.
Then i would loose control of the engine and could as well just remove the O2 sensor, but even without it, the rpm are oscillating.
I want to find and fix the source of the problem, not just fix the symptoms, so fooling the ECU by getting readings from the sensors, that the ECU aren't calibrated with, would be against the whole purpose of this project. ;D
The purpose of this project is to get a scooter to self-tune by sensors and a computing unit, but if i mess up the sensors, this wouldn't really be possible, and it would read right when the AFR is wrong and wrong when its right. ;)
I accidently broke a piece of plastic that leads fuel again, so now i'm carburated again untill it is fixed. As a coarse fix, i'm making a plastic-glue of acetone and lego to fix the crack, untill i can get a replacement plastic part. If it doesn't work, i will be carburated for 2-3 weeks. :p
My Project Electronic Fuel Injection: Plunk down $3700 for a Honda PCX. Done in minutes! :lol:
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Swapping between Fuel injected and carburated takes 20-30 minutes, where the most time consuming part is to dismount the fuel tank and mount the other one.
In complete darkness at 2 in the night, it takes about an hour. ;)
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Hey guys, Lego and acetone glue cant hold back pressured fuel, so for now i'm still running carb, untill i get the replacement parts.
After i put the carb back on, i decided to test the mixture with #80 jet, but i forgot that the rpm restriction in the injection are by cutting fuel and not the spark, so the rpm raised past 10.000 and here it got exiting:
At 11.500 RPM, the sound raised dramatically "WWRROOOOM" and it sounded like a 500cc motorcycle taking off, so i guess this is where the resonance point are on the Leo Vince exhaust, and it starts functioning as a tuning exhaust, sucking air out of the cylinder in the instance the exhaust valve is opened.
So i learned three things today:
- The Agility can handle 12.000 rpm with standart engine (exept exhaust) for a short amount of time.
- Lego-glue isn't strong enough for pressured fuel.
- The resonance point makes any engine sound f***ing fantastic and it is at 11.500 rpm with the Leo Vince exhaust. ;)
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Is there any progress on the idling problem?
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Is there any progress on the idling problem?
Oh yeah. I am sorry for the lack of updates on this forum. The idling problem was that the sealing O-ring gasget between the throttle body and the intake manifold was too small because space had been carved to the O-ring in both the throttle body and in the manifold which is where the injector is. This would cause an air leak and enough air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinder to get the idle rpm rising. :)
I have driven this for months without problems and have been tuning it manually while reading the AFR with a wideband lambda sensor even though it can do self-tuning when there are a wideband lambda sensor attatched. But anyway.
It seems that the GY6 engine can hold idle rpm all the way down to 600 rpm, but i have not yet have had them stable below 800. :)
Also, when the engine is cold, i have trouble igniting a fuel mixture that is not enriched to AFR 11 or more and this causes some trouble, which i will figure out soon. :)
About the max rpm, i have recently found out that the 2010 agility has 2 springs per valve and the 2008 only has one, so do not attemt to hit 12.000 rpm if you only have 1 spring per valve. :D
Also, there is a restriction in the air filter about 7 cm from the carb intake which reduces the inside diameter by 1,6cm. When this is removed, the pressure after the throttle blade can be above ambient at WOT, so i guess the stock air box is not that much of a restriction. Also i have rounded all corners in the stock air filter and i have increased the diameter of the intake at the cylinder head to 24mm, so it matches with the EFI kit. :)
Even though the pressure is high with the stock air box, the Volumetric efficientcy is still only 80%, which is probably mainly because of the valves. If i can get a 4V cylinder head for less than the $400 a whole 139QMA-A engine will cost, i will try that to increase the VE. Also the air temperature seems to rise with about 10 degrees (celcius) higher than the ambient temperature when the engine is fully warmed (70-80 degrees) and the air box is 50 degrees. I guess this is a combination of that the intake to the air filter is pointed so that it sucks air that has blown by the engine and because the air filter is poorly cooled and placed right on top of the engine. :)
Now the project is to remove the engine and install the engine from my old crashed agility and get the EFI to work on that, because the rear pulley broke last friday and took a piece out of the engine block. :/
After that, the project will hopefully get exiting. I have talked with a man who wants to make bolt-on compressors for 50cc engines and i may be able to buy one from him later this summer, so i have bought an intercooler and shroud from a peugeot jetforce 125 compressor and hopefully i will get one of his 50cc superchargers (vane-type compressor). :D
The goal for the end of the summer is 10 hp, but it all comes down to weather or not i can get a compressor.
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Oh.
And a partial reason why i did the convertion: Fuel economy.
Unfortunately i have been forced by the Danish police to restrict the scooter by top gearing and rpm, and the maximum speed is 38 km/h (gps). If i get above 42 km/h on a dyno, they will confiscate the scooter. :p
Also i have suffered from a dirty front brake that brakes a little all the time. The best fuel economy i could get our of the carburator with restrictions and the brake was 35 km/l (82 mpg).
With the fuel injection not in closed-loop but still with restrictions and a dirty front brake i have gotten 44 km/l (103 mpg) with AFR from 13 to 15 when warmed up. :)
I have also tested the AFR with the carburator and i found that it is imposible to succesfully adjust the AFR on a carburator at other points than WOT. If yu adjust it for a good AFR at idle (12-13 is good for a carburated engine) with the air screw it will be lean at part throttle and if you adjust it for a good AFR at 10% throttle it will be rich at idle and lean at 20% throttle, so the only way to get the engine to run stable is to have it rich all over the place and then a little more rich at some points than at others. This is also because the fuel needed is not only dependent on throttle opening but also on rpm, and the methods of adjustment in a carburator is not very good at adjusting for several conditions. :)
With this said, the only place the AFR was stable with the carb was at WOT and above 7000 rpm. Here it was starting at AFR 11 (little rich but fine) and hitting AFR 12 when the rpm was a little above 7500 and then only slowly getting higher and higher AFR as the rpm raised, but it did not get above 14 at any point of WOT from 7000 to 9000 with a #80 jet. :)
Also, the GY6 engine is not very sensitive to lean mixtures. I have driven with AFR 17 non stop for an hour and not gotten higher engine temperatures than with AFR 13. The only thing i saw with a lean mixture is that it generates less power. :)
The only things i have found that influences the engine temp is the air temp and if the mixture is excessively rich. An excessively rich mixture carries alot of the heat out with the exhaust gas and a rise in air temp from 18 degrees to 25 degrees can easily raise the engine temp from 74 degrees to 88 degrees (personal maximum measured) if the AFR is correct. :D
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Thats awesome, Im glad it all worked out! I knew there was an air leak somewhere.
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Thats awesome, Im glad it all worked out! I knew there was an air leak somewhere.
Yeah, i was just surprised to see the air leak coming from between pre-assembled parts. :)
But it works great. As long as the mixture is properly tuned, it has way better accelleration and throttle response and the fuel economy is also better. :)
One of the things i love about this though is that it has the sensors and models to measure, predict and calculate almost anything in the engine and with the bluetooth adapter and android app i can see it and record data on my phone which is attatched to the handlebars and it has taught me a great deal about the engine and also helped me do many calculations of the engine parameters. :)
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Its crazy how cool EFI is, especially EPROM efi.
Can you take another video of the scoot?
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Its crazy how cool EFI is, especially EPROM efi.
Can you take another video of the scoot?
I've got a couple of videos on my youtube and can record anything you'd like besides the tuning part. That makes too long and boring videoes that takes ages to upload. :D
But most of the videoes are made after some changes before the tuning was fully done. :p
Anyway, it seems that the agility wont idle very stably for a long time with anything but a rich mixture, so i'll discard my manually tuned calibrations and properly test the self-tuning option that it can do with a wideband lambda sensor. Tuning the mixture is fun as long at it makes sense. ;)
Also, i should be getting an oil cooler in the mail in one of the next days. :D
My youtube channel. (http://www.youtube.com/user/PartykongenBaddi/videos)
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My Yager "hangs" on decel at around 4000 RPM's. I think I might have an air leak too...
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My Yager "hangs" on decel at around 4000 RPM's. I think I might have an air leak too...
I have not studied the Yager very much so i know close to nothing of it, but if it is only at decelleration, i would not think that it is an air leak as the fuel is totally cut in 4-stroke injection engines during decelleration. If it has a CVT, i would think that 4000 rpm is then what your torque spring makes it down to when it gears down and a tighter spring would raise the rpm. If your engine does not have CVT but it hangs at 4000 rpm during decelleration, i would look at the TPS sensor as the fuel will not be cut if the TPS sensor does not read 0% (+/- 0,18%).
If you also have high idle rpm, i would look at both the TPS sensor and look for any air leaks as air leaks would reduce the pumping losses and give slower decelleration even if the fuel is cut off but then would give high or oscillating RPM when the fuel is given back at idle. :)
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Hmm you might be right about the TPS. I was trying to reset the oil minder light
a couple of weeks ago and it flashed a TPS problem. Maybe I need to reset it.
Thanks!
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Hmm you might be right about the TPS. I was trying to reset the oil minder light
a couple of weeks ago and it flashed a TPS problem. Maybe I need to reset it.
Thanks!
You should get a detailed service book on your bike to know how to reset the TPS sensor without frying the ECU, since those are quite expensive. On the ecotrons EFI kit the tps sensor is reset by turning the ignition on and then disconnecting the ECU with the power on. When the ECU is then reconnected, still with the power on, the TPS sensor is reset to 0%. :)
If the sensor is reading a voltage out of the desired range or it goes to something like 35,000% or 0,000% when at WOT, then the sensor should be manually adjusted by the adjustment screw and then reset again. If this does not fix the problem or the resistance between the legs are out of range, then the sensor should be replaced. I once accidentally fried the ECU, MAP sensor and TPS sensor all at once and it seems that when these are done for, the resistance will be very low and not change significantly or linear. :)
And now for a little update on my bike: :D
I decided to try the auto tuning, which i has so far avoided because it seemed too "robotic", but i accually enjoyed it, since it only took a single trip to get it tuned pretty much. :)
Whenever i changed the throttle, i could watch the AFR change from 15.6 to 14.7 and either becoming stable here or hovering around 14.6 to 14.8. It took a couple of seconds for every condition, but unfortunately, it is very difficult to get it to self-adjust at WOT and low rpm, since the rpm will quickly change. ;)
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Thanks for the update, glad you found the problem.
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I have driven this for months without problems and have been tuning it manually while reading the AFR with a wideband lambda sensor even though it can do self-tuning when there are a wideband lambda sensor attatched. But anyway.
I decided to try the auto tuning, which i has so far avoided because it seemed too "robotic", but i accually enjoyed it, since it only took a single trip to get it tuned pretty much. :)
Whenever i changed the throttle, i could watch the AFR change from 15.6 to 14.7 and either becoming stable here or hovering around 14.6 to 14.8. It took a couple of seconds for every condition, but unfortunately, it is very difficult to get it to self-adjust at WOT and low rpm, since the rpm will quickly change. ;)
Did you use the ALM from Ecotrons for this or something else?
Any luck on finding an 139QMA-A cylinderhead?
Is it already superchargerd 8)
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I bought the ecotrons kit, wrote horrible quality. Not worthy the money at all. Super cheap China product for top dollar. Warning DON'T BUY ECOTRONS!!!!!!!!! mine ended up coming out of the box with a cracked fuel injection mounting bung on the throttle body, a bad ecu, and a fuel pump that couldn't keep up with demands. Sure the principals behind fuel injection is nice in theory, but if you can't trust your fuel injection to get you out of town then what's the point? Also is your agility 2t? The agility in us is 4t. Also if you're law requires to be below 38kph why the hell after you spending so much money of the bike?
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To bad that people who have one bad experience with a product try to warn everybody with shouting "don't buy from this company or this or that, because ...." all over the internet.
For every bad experience there are always more good ones. Read this topic and you can see it's not all bad.
Mine arrived in perfect condition. Still installing the set. Support from Ecotrons is fine up till now.
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He was going for MPG more than MPH. I think fuel is like 4 bucks a liter there
It's wayyyyy to easy to get carried away moding these things. 5G's in a 2t ZX is a bit out of line also.
What did that FI kit end up costing if I may ask.
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5 G's is 500?? Sorry I'm not familiar with the term G's. ???
Mine has cost 400 euro's/545 dollar sofar, including shipping and taxes.
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5,000.00 USD. That's all in total. Not a penny figured in for all the labor but it is an 80+ MPH bike.
Could'a built a Harley for less.
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Oef!, that's a lot off money.
But does it ride the way you want it? If yes, than the investment was all worth it ;D.
I'm also looking for better drivability and more MPG. Extra MPH is a benefit.
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Yeah it did exactly what I wanted it to do. No complaints there.
I just lost interest. It'll be a bargain for the guy that wants it but I haven't found anyone capable of running/maintaining it.
I was strictly looking for MPH. Riding the bike as a daily is almost out of the question now. It's getting 15-18 miles to a full tank PLUS the 4 bucks for Platinum 32 2t oil per tank. It's costing about .50 cents a mile to run.
Great job eh!
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If I get a c rap product, I'll warn people about it hands down. I am with you on that one, the ecotrons support is pretty dang good for a company like that. But the kit is so damn cheap-o. I like my bike to be reliable, and carb was the way to go for that. I also paid about $500 for the unit. Huge waste of money IMHO
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I'd kinda like to set one up but.... 500.00
It might be easier to strip a Junker for the parts.
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I bought the ecotrons kit, wrote horrible quality. Not worthy the money at all. Super cheap China product for top dollar. Warning DON'T BUY ECOTRONS!!!!!!!!! mine ended up coming out of the box with a cracked fuel injection mounting bung on the throttle body, a bad ecu, and a fuel pump that couldn't keep up with demands. Sure the principals behind fuel injection is nice in theory, but if you can't trust your fuel injection to get you out of town then what's the point? Also is your agility 2t? The agility in us is 4t. Also if you're law requires to be below 38kph why the hell after you spending so much money of the bike?
Sorry to hear about a bad experience. It is chineese manufactured, that's true, but i never had any problem with its quality. :D
I'm still driving my agility with the fuel injection kit on it. :)
So far the problems i've had has been with the installing on the bike, mainly that one should be sure that there are enough space for the lambda sensor and the fuel system even when the shocks are fully compressed when you drive over a bump a bit too fast. Also, i once accidentally short-circuted when i was trying to remove some corrosion on the connectors and i burned out an ECU and a MAP sensor. :)
The problems i've experienced that has not been due to hardware problems has simply been myself messing around with numbers in ProCal that i did not fully understand. :)
I'm now getting around 117 mpg (50 km/l) while being restricted to 23mph or 37 km/h @ 7500 rpm and driving 100% urban. The acceleration is not as fast as it used to be, but what can you expect from an engine that has driven 17.000 km and has seen rpm up to 12.500? :D
I might need to fit a new cylinder i have lying around soon, when the original finally wears down and then i expect the acceleration to be forceful again. I still outrun most restricted 2-strokes when setting off from a red light, though. Until i get to my restriction and they still have a couple more km/h. ;)
The money i spent on this bike has been as a hobby as well as getting the bike improved. The EFI kit will have paid for its initial buying price in less than 2000 km :)
I haven't bought any new parts for it the past 6 months though, as i just moved to the city and started studying as a mechanical engineer.
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Nice to see you Baddi,. Thanks for updating this thread.
I've started rebuilding a "69 Triumph 650 engine for a hard-tail frame I have, and I am looking around the scrap yards for any old 600=700 cc FI bike to claim the injection system from. This will be a highway bike, and mileage is my goal. I have a modded Sportster tank that holds 3.5 gallons, and no real desire to pull over every 100 miles for fuel.
Crazy as it is most of the scrap yards get real greedy when they know you are after the injection system. If you want the engine... 2-3 hundred bucks. If you want just the electrics... 5-6 hundred. I guess they all know what time it is...
Good luck in school!
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Good to hear from your Baddi and good to hear your set is still running fine.
I've installed mine on a test scooter and it started and ran on the first try ;D. And your right, making it fit to my scooter was the most work. Now I'm redoing the cables set to fit my scotter better.
Good luck in school!
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Keep us posted... Both of you, please.
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Great to hear that someone else is using this.
In Denmark i've only found a single person other than me, but he gave up without even trying to tune it, because it ran worse out of the box than when it was carburated... Pussy...
There's not really much to update about, as i haven't changed much lately, but i realise that i have not updated this post as much as on the danish forums, so i guess i'll get you up to date. :D
Low fuel pressure is diagnosted by a rich mixture at idle along with sounds of possible misfiring and flooding, while it's possible that you can drive at very low throttle with the engine sprutting and flooding and then being completely lean at WOT. :)
This is because there will still be quite some fuel injected, for use at low loads, but that the vapourisation is not good enough and it is not able to supply enough fuel for high loads at all. :D
Fix: check your fuel supply for leaks and possibly change your fuel filter. An EFI engine filters much more fuel through the filter than a carburatated, because fuel is circulated by the pump.
Then there are wierd symotoms. Low fuel pressure symptoms when the engine is cold or when you have idled for a bit, but running normally after a bit. The problem here is possibly that the fuel relay is not conducting enough amps. Since this problem is not existing when the engine has been running fair rpm after a while, you could suspect that the battery voltage alone cannot give enough amps, while the increased voltage of the charging system can. The cause is either too much restriction in the wires or a bad battery.
Fix: Get a relay which is sealed to avoid rust in the relay, check your wires for oxidation at connectors and possibly get a new battery.
If you try to fix the problem above by fiddling with the factor MAP_fwWmp_N_Ld (weightening of warmup factor dependent on rpm and load), you might have a quick fix, but you're in for a bad time. The engine will be impossible to tune properly and if you are using autotuning with ALM, the engine will try to compensate for this, and you will end up with the original problem, but while the engine thinks it has volumetric efficientcies of 150% and like that. Messing with the factor MAP_fwWmp_N_Ld won't fix a hardware problem. Don't do it, diagnosting the consequenses afterwards are hard as f***. :D
Also. Removing all restrictions in the air filter of the agility and making the diameter difference between the throttle body and the intake valve opening gradually changing will give you inlet manifold pressures (at WOT) at or above atmospheric pressure from 7-8000 rpm while still having volumetric efficientcies at close to 100%. Bad thing is that there is a significant air temperature rise in the original air filter. A 10-20 degrees celsius rise is not unnormal, especially if you drive in cities, where the black filterbox can be a heatsink at red lights. I am unsure if changing the colour of the air box will change anything, as i have spoken with my brother who studies physics and he say that a black box is both the best at absorbing heat, but also the best at radiating it again.
Perhaps you could control the flow of heat by having the inside of the air box white while having the exterior black, exept for the part in direct sunligt and the part closest facing the engine. :p
But anyway, the point was that you are feeding the engine hot air with the stock filter, but you are doing it efficiently.
One of the few things i have changed is that i am using the "new" fuel pump type, because i can have a more simple network of fuel lines. Nothing else than cosmetics and space saving.
I've also fitted a 2.5 bar MAP sensor instead of the original 1.05 bar, to prepare the EFI for boost. All i had to change was three values. VAL_uMapDropIntkMin=0.4, VAL_PmapGrd=500 and VAL_PmapOfs=100.
Also installed 3 bar pressure regulator (now standard) instead of the 2.5 bar that they previously used. For some reason, Matt seemed not to understand me, when i asked if i should change anything when installing this, so i didn't change anything and it didn't rally do anything either....
I installed a 60 g/min injector instead of the 38 g/min injector to prepare for boost and after changing the values in the program, it ran just fine. :)
So no new components that has changed anything. Just some other components that can do about the same. :D
I still haven't dared to advance the ignition angle as it is already at 35,25 compared to the original 28 degrees. :)
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WOW! Baddi, you have become my new Super Hero. It sounds like you have gone thru every worm hole in the universe, and come out smiling. If nothing else the education you gained, and shared is worth it.
If I have issues setting up my Triumph, YOU will be the first person I contact. (run for the hills brother).
I hope the whole forum applauds you as much as I do. You have accomplished something that not many would even dare to try, let alone pursue to the end.
Skoal!
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WOW! Baddi, you have become my new Super Hero. It sounds like you have gone thru every worm hole in the universe, and come out smiling. If nothing else the education you gained, and shared is worth it.
If I have issues setting up my Triumph, YOU will be the first person I contact. (run for the hills brother).
I hope the whole forum applauds you as much as I do. You have accomplished something that not many would even dare to try, let alone pursue to the end.
Skoal!
I am very glad you feel this way. :)
Yes, i have learned a lot from this project, and that, along with the larger possibilities of fiddling with the engine, has been one of the things i think i've paid for. The sensors and the ability to be in full control has really given my knowledge of this engine a boost. Especially along with the wideband lambda sensor.
I have tested, that the original carburator will run lean in the mid-throttle if you jet it to run stoich at WOT and that it will be rich at WOT if you jet it to never run lean. Also, if you chose the rich at WOT at 7300 rpm, it will be closer to stoich when you near 10.000 rpm. :)
The carburator is a big compromise and the best you can get is kinda rich all over.
An #80 jet for me gave around an AFR at around 11 at 7000 with closer to 12-13 when you near 9000. If i remember right, i did these tests the summer of 2013 and the only thing i remember for sure was that it was impossible to get a great AFR all over with the carburator. :)
Regarding the AFR, i might have said this before, but the cocio brown colour comes from around 11-12, which is great for a two-stroke that needs the lubrication and cooling but is far too rich for a four-stroke. The stoich AFR of 14,7 will give a gray colour on the spark plug and more power than the 11-12, but what has given me the best throttle response and power has been around 13-14, which still gives a kind of gray'ish colour. :)
Below 12 (rich) gives you lack of power and above 15 (lean) gives you a serious lack of power. But the agility engine won't take any damage from driving lean and despite what the two-stroke practice tells, i have not experienced the hotter engine from running lean. The AFR that has given me the hottest engine has been a stoich mixture of around 14,7, because this is when most energy is taken from the fuel and made into brute force in the engine.
Even before adding my oil cooler, i have driven it up to 95 degrees celsius on the valve cover, i have driven it with mixtures from 10 to 20 (the limits of what my gague can show) and i have driven it with a mixture of 16 (lean, not very much power) on a hot summer day with 75-80 degrees on the valve cover. Also, i have driven it up to 12.500 rpm a couple of times and has once held it above 10.000 rpm for nearly 20 minutes straight..... No wonder my engine isn't as powerful as when it were new.... Haha!
But if you want to ignite such mixtures, an iridium spark plug is a must. :)
This being said, i have reground my valves 2 or 3 times in the engines lifetime. But other than that, the engine seems very hard to kill. And i'm doing my best, because i have a new naraku v.2 50cc cylinder kit waiting for the original to die. I have compared weight and appearance of Naraku versus the original and i suspect that the naraku might have higher silicum content (good) and possibly ceramic coating on the skirts for less wear against the cylinder.
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I have the Naruku on a spare engine. The "coating" on the skirts is more of an ink-jet application that very quickly wears off (1000km) That being what it is the engine rev'd higher, and made more power with that kit.
I can confirm everything you stated about the CVK being less than a good carb as well. I have fought with them for a few years, and also found that slightly rich across the spectrum is the best you can do with them. I did have problems with burning intake valves (believe it or not) . I would think the intake charge would cool that valve but it is always the one that burnt.
They are goofy litle engines that like you say are very hard to kill.
One thing I have not tried is an Iridium plug. Going by your findings I will be using one because I am due for a new plug anyway.
Thanks again Baddi! I real happy you came back to update.
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I have the Naruku on a spare engine. The "coating" on the skirts is more of an ink-jet application that very quickly wears off (1000km) That being what it is the engine rev'd higher, and made more power with that kit.
I can confirm everything you stated about the CVK being less than a good carb as well. I have fought with them for a few years, and also found that slightly rich across the spectrum is the best you can do with them. I did have problems with burning intake valves (believe it or not) . I would think the intake charge would cool that valve but it is always the one that burnt.
They are goofy litle engines that like you say are very hard to kill.
One thing I have not tried is an Iridium plug. Going by your findings I will be using one because I am due for a new plug anyway.
Thanks again Baddi! I real happy you came back to update.
Aaah, i'm sad to hear that the coating is just paint. Ceramic coating would be so great but having foreign particles coming from the piston is not so great. :/
The cheapest place i have found iridium spark plugs is http://www.ebay.com/itm/NGK-IRIDIUM-IX-LPG-UPGRADE-SPARK-PLUGS-FAST-WORLDWIDE-SHIPPING-LOW-PRICES-/171071495319?pt=UK_Car_Parts_Vehicles_Automobila_ET&var=&hash=item27d4a7dc97 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NGK-IRIDIUM-IX-LPG-UPGRADE-SPARK-PLUGS-FAST-WORLDWIDE-SHIPPING-LOW-PRICES-/171071495319?pt=UK_Car_Parts_Vehicles_Automobila_ET&var=&hash=item27d4a7dc97)
Iridium spark plugs has a finer tip, which means that the air/fuel mixture is more likely to be in contact with the spark, giving better chance of ignition and also, the finer tip absorbs less heat from the expanding ball of fire, while giving it more space to expand and this gives a more reliable spark, even if the fuel mixture is a bit off. Also, the material is much harder, has a higher melting-point and less electrical resistance, making it last about 3 times as long as a normal spark plug. :)
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One thing about iridium plugs, and i do like them. A lot of people think they are designed for a power increase but actually iridium is less conductive than copper. It IS harder therefore lasting longer, sometimes up to 100,000 miles in cars. I think any gain "felt" by iridium plugs is placebo effect really. I also have noticed that if you're bike is running poorly they foul MUCH easier than standard copper plugs.
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South Park Shenanigans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvK1F-Thrzk#)
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One thing about iridium plugs, and i do like them. A lot of people think they are designed for a power increase but actually iridium is less conductive than copper. It IS harder therefore lasting longer, sometimes up to 100,000 miles in cars. I think any gain "felt" by iridium plugs is placebo effect really. I also have noticed that if you're bike is running poorly they foul MUCH easier than standard copper plugs.
The thing that gives a better combustion (along with it, a bit of extra power) is not the elecrical conductivity, but that the material allows for a smaller electrode, so that the flame ball that is created has a better chance of expanding and that it also, because of the smaller electrode absorbs less of the heat (energy) from this newly created flame ball. :)
The fouling thing is not something that i have heard of. In contrast, every manufacturer and every paper sais that they are less likely to foul, partially because the point from where the spark can jump is smaller and therefore it is more likely to jump from the same point every time, burning any soot that might have gotten there.
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That is exactly what I read as well.
The fine tip can burn off any soot before it becomes carbon, and therefore cannot foul.
2T racers have been touting them for years. I just never jumped on that boat. I also pay for it because I go thu plugs like most people go thru toilet paper. I just looked yesterday, and I have around 20 new Br9HSA's in my box. I haven't ridden the bike that runs them in about 8 months or so.
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Baddi, could you tell me how you connected the rev counter?
I got mine first connected the original way, to the coil and Ecotrons CDI unit, but that didn't work. The signal comming from the CDI was not what the Rev counter needed.
Now I have connected the Rev counter directly to the pulser/pickup, it is responding now but it's not 100%. It spikes a lot.
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The counter/Tach goes to the positive input on the coil, and ground. Some three wire tachs also have a +12v lead that goes to switched.
You have to be sure it is a 4T single cylinder tach. If it is counting, and spiking it is most likely a bad ground connection or noise from the stator. I had the same issue on my 2T aftermarket tach, and fixed it w/ a 4700 uF 35V capacitor from Radio Shack $5.29. It simply goes onto the positive input of the coil, and to ground.
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Thanks for the reply.
The tacho is the original from Kymco in the dash. When I hooked it up the original way, same way as you wrote, it didn't react to the change in revs. It only got up to the max revs the engine does when turning the throtle and didn't come down.
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Is it the original Kymco engine or is it a QMB engine?
I don't understand how or why it would have been disconnected or need to be.
If it is a QMB engine the coil is fired DC instead of the Kymco's AC fired system. Then you will need a different tach.
Wait to see what Baddi did. I'm guessing now.
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Baddi, could you tell me how you connected the rev counter?
I got mine first connected the original way, to the coil and Ecotrons CDI unit, but that didn't work. The signal comming from the CDI was not what the Rev counter needed.
Now I have connected the Rev counter directly to the pulser/pickup, it is responding now but it's not 100%. It spikes a lot.
I have had the Stage 6 speedometer both with the Ecotrons setup and with the original setup. The rev counter wire has one wire that should be tapped into the puckup output (the wire from the pickup to the CDI) and then it has another wire that should be grounded (-12V or to the frame somewhere without paint). Some rev counters might have a single wire and then it should be connected to the pickup output. :)
I have also had some spikes, but as it is now, i only get one spike when i hit the rev limiter at 7500 rpm where it for about a quarter of a second will show 12-15.000 rpm untill it updates the figure again. I can't figure out why this spike is appearing, since the output of the pickup should be the same, no matter what the ignition system does. If you connect it in between the CDI and the coil, you will get many more spikes because the spark angle is changed often in certain conditions and it might interfere with the way it count the revs. :)