KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: OregonDad on April 13, 2012, 07:12:32 PM
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Scrolling through parts on eBay when I came across this Performance Air Filter http://www.ebay.com/itm/Performance-Air-Filter-for-50-to-80cc-to-100cc-Scooters-Cold-Air-Intake-GY6-/230740248628?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item35b930c834 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Performance-Air-Filter-for-50-to-80cc-to-100cc-Scooters-Cold-Air-Intake-GY6-/230740248628?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item35b930c834)
Would this work for the Agility 50?
Would the cover protect the air filter in light rain?
Does it install with the cover slots up or down?
What size jet would I need to use with this Performance Air Filter?
Finally, how much more power for climbing hills would we get with the new filter and jet?
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There are better protected filter out there than that one in your link. I got one 2-3wks ago and tried it but am still messing about with jetting to get it correct, tried at least 5-6 jets so far but just had to order another 2 today as its still not right yet, im back on my stock airbox for now till i get it correct. Its a lot of trial and error to get it right, some only need a #88 or #90 jet but that was way too lean for mine and it wouldnt even run over 10-15mph! A #110 is too lean and a #120 is too rich so at least ive narrowed it down, reckon i need a 112 or 124. Just takes time, patience, lots of jets and jet swapping and some spare new plugs to do test runs on and see its not too lean or rich.
If you didnt read it before then maybe skim thro my thread on what ive been thro so far, http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6039.0 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6039.0)
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That is not a big power gain in itself. You only really gain by using a pipe/filter combo. Jetting is MANDATORY with these filters. And.... NO WET WEATHER. Even water on the road clogs/floods them right out. You are better off with cvt tuning. A "race" variator/contra spring are the biggest gains on a 4t. Cheap BBK's also work very well if you know how to "clean them up" for install. 70 bucks gets you 50mm jug/head/rollers/oil pump/gaskets. 2 hours later, and you have torque.
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Out country is visited by more than 20 typhoons a year. That's the reason why I don't modify my filter and/or pipes. I am just considering a cvt tuning in the near future. Or just get/build another scoot for speed runs!
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...it's real hard to increase performance much by installing a filter, you gotta get main and pilot jetting spot-on...
..also, to fully benefit, you need to raise your carb's needle slightly, which requires some serious manual modifications to the retaining clip...
..also, installing a filter greatly increase the engines sound...really loud!!...which may not be something you want....lol..
..open the airbox, remove filter element, and fire it up..thatll give you an idea of the sound...(your son will like it!)
..dont run it like that tho!..just rev it a lil, then shut it off!!..lol..
..cvt tuning is painstaking, but well worth the effort...
peace
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CVT tuning is easy:
- Buy malossi multivar.
- Buy 6,5g rollers (or 6g dr. pulley)
- Dont install the white contra-spring which came with the multivar (just tested the strength yesterday, and it is 30 kg, just as the standart). If anything, install a weaker spring, as the standart spring is for the LBD8 motor (original taiwanese 80 ccm), while our agilitys have the LBD6 motor (50 ccm for export to western countries).
- (some say) Buy slightly longer belt.
You could also buy another clutch bell to get other properties, and for the best burning of the fuel (little more power is one of the many benefits) i would recommend buying a CR7HIX iridium spark plug, and a high tension ignition coil with 31000 volt instead of the standart 16000.
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you know what makes a good air filter red neck style a pair of your old ladys nylons.just dont let her catch you.....................lol
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you know what makes a good air filter red neck style a pair of your old ladys nylons.just dont let her catch you.....................lol
Lol. Im sure, thats gonna filter out all of the bad particles ;)
But as long as it works, she's not gonna catch you ;)
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If anything, install a weaker spring
...dont mean to be a buzz-kill....however....
..the malossi blue 1500 contra was, hands-down...the BEST cvt mod i ever made to any of my scoots...
..other than the stage6 clutch...or maybe the multivar...or maybe the naraku vari...
...hmmm...yup...by far the best!!!
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Lol. Im sure, thats gonna filter out all of the bad particles
..lmao..yeah, blue issa renegade!!!
;D
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If anything, install a weaker spring
...dont mean to be a buzz-kill....however....
..the malossi blue 1500 contra was, hands-down...the BEST cvt mod i ever made to any of my scoots...
..other than the stage6 clutch...or maybe the multivar...or maybe the naraku vari...
...hmmm...yup...by far the best!!!
Look at the word contra. The contra spring is the biggest power stealer in the entire engine, and the only function it has is to keep the belt tight. You should put in the weakest spring, that will hold the belt tight at all rpm, and then adjust your roller weight after that. This will give you more kilowatt (or horse power, if you'd like to call it that) at the wheel, as less power goes to gearing up. With a lesser power loss, you will have better accelleration, and your scooter will have easier to fully gear out. :)
And whats up with all the dots? :S
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..im a dot freak.............................................................
...and i really like the way the contra grips my belt tighter..
..it help keeps the engine/cvt in its powerband...no rpm loss during decelleration...powers out of corners much quicker...assists in climbing hills....and is a (IMO) must-have if you run a longer belt...
..i don't think i could ever go back to a oem, or lighter contra...
.don't think they even make one much lighter than oem...
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The spring debate has reached the Kymco forum... (dots are for you Baddi) Some prefer the weaker springs for the reasons Baddi states. The trade off is in quicker up gearing. You will come off the contra pulleys almost at take off, and loose some "quickness" and Most of your down shifting for hills. The advantage is belt life. Less stress = longer life. I would rather use a direct drive set up but alass.
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..the malossi blue 1500 contra was, hands-down...the BEST cvt mod i ever made to any of my scoots...
I totally agree, well its a close competition with that or fitting a race variator. I was dropping to 20mph on some hills even on 4,5g weightsbut with the 1500rpm i can run up the same hills at 30mph now, a huge improvement and it didnt even cost me any top end speed. I guess if you live in a real flat country then Baddi's theory is correct but for where i live i need to get up hills without cyclists and buses overtaking me, thats embarrassing.
5.5g and 1500rpm spring in good for me, prob the cvt best set up ive had, works well with a stock belt or a longer 736 belt.
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I think I need one of those springs.
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..one factor i forgot, is the driven pulley...
..now, both my agilitys (08 and 09) had unrestricted driven pulleys...
..i can only assume the newer ones are like them, maybe not...
..a 1500 would not be desireable if your scoot's pulleys are restricted...
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I totally agree, well its a close competition with that or fitting a race variator. I was dropping to 20mph on some hills even on 4,5g weightsbut with the 1500rpm i can run up the same hills at 30mph now, a huge improvement and it didnt even cost me any top end speed. I guess if you live in a real flat country then Baddi's theory is correct but for where i live i need to get up hills without cyclists and buses overtaking me, thats embarrassing.
5.5g and 1500rpm spring in good for me, prob the cvt best set up ive had, works well with a stock belt or a longer 736 belt.
What the f***!? (Excuse my french).
Of course you are loosing power up-hill with that kind of roller weight. To give the force to press the 30 kg spring at the maximum effect rpm (7500), 6,5g rollers are neccercary. If you go down in weight, you will have to go up in rpm's to provide the force neccercary, and this takes alot of energy from the engine, which is doesn't have over the 7500 rpm. Therefore your powerloss up hill is in the first place caused by too light rollers, and you try to compensate for that with another spring, instead of just putting in the right roller weights :S
My old agility could easily go 30 mph up hill (and if i wasnt at that speed, it was easy to accellerate up steep hills from standing still, with 2 persons on it) with 6g rollers, malossi multivar and the standart 30 kg spring.
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My old agility could easily go 30 mph up hill
..thats really f***ing slow!!!!
..lmao...excuse my dots!!.....
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My old agility could easily go 30 mph up hill
..thats really f***ing slow!!!!
..lmao...excuse my dots!!.....
And he said:
[...]I was dropping to 20mph on some hills even on 4,5g weightsbut with the 1500rpm i can run up the same hills at 30mph now, a huge improvement and it didnt even cost me any top end speed. [...]
So, when your rollers are 2g too light, and you try to compensate for that by putting in another spring, when all you gotta do is put in those 6,5g rollers with the standart spring.
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YUP! The Debate has landed.
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YUP! The Debate has landed.
Yeah, zombie is right, mabye we are flying too high. I'll go to bed, its 1 AM here in Denmark, and i have to get up in 5 hours ^^ cya.
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...i'm serious, baddi...if your regularly droppin to 30....you can do MUCH BETTER!!
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...dream sweet baddi!!
...dream of 42 uphill...wake refreshed!!...
:-*
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It all comes down to how YOU like to ride. I have 9gr, and a 2000 spring with my fly springs stretched to open off idle. It runs like an ape but goes thru belts in about a month. I like low rpm pull (2000 contra/weak fly's), and sustained hi rpm runs (9gr rollers). Balance is the key. Mine is a train wreck but I like it. Every other set up is sub par for me.
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..every scoot...and th person onnit is different..yup...
..are there many hills in denmark??
..i gotta google earth...
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I think Denmark is one of those under water countries... Like Atlantis. They need more dirt there.
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...aaaahhhh...atlantis...
...always wanted to vacation there...
.......imma pisces, ssssoooo....
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You'll fit right in. Although they do have a funny accent there.
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...baddi oughtta be posting us pics of th red-light district!!!
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OR sending samples from the Other district.
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If anything, install a weaker spring
...dont mean to be a buzz-kill....however....
..the malossi blue 1500 contra was, hands-down...the BEST cvt mod i ever made to any of my scoots...
Back on topic...
I can't find a blue malossi spring, only RED =1500 YEL =1000 WHT=800 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MALOSSI-1000-1500-2000-RPM-TORQUE-SPRING-DRR-APEX-ETON-/310330320700?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item484120e73c&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MALOSSI-1000-1500-2000-RPM-TORQUE-SPRING-DRR-APEX-ETON-/310330320700?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item484120e73c&vxp=mtr)
I agree that a weaker spring seems counter-intuitive. The 5.5g + 1500rpm combo seems to work for most, except Exe who could not get over 25mph with it. Are malossi springs stiffer than generic springs like these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Performance-torque-spring-139QMB-scooter-Roketa-DIO-/270559695383?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item3efe9d5217&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Performance-torque-spring-139QMB-scooter-Roketa-DIO-/270559695383?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item3efe9d5217&vxp=mtr) ?
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...well, that "looks" like a malossi mhr red 2000...
..but it has 6 coils, ...mhr has 5 coils...
...i dunno....
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The trouble with cheap springs is they are not true spring steel. They will soften the first time you ride from the heat in the clutch. So for comparative spring weight? It don't matter. OEM takes 65ish lbs to collapse. Add 10 more for each step stiffer. A NEW Malossi red takes about 85 lbs to collapse. You can test them on a bathroom scale by pushing till the coils just touch.
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all you got to do is put in 6.5g rollers and a standard spring
Like i said Baddi, doesnt work well at all round here. I tried most roller weights between 4.5g-7.5g on most springs, inc stock, and this is by far the best running set up i have found, by far. 6.5g rollers on a stock spring simply will not pull me out of bed making Hills are a nightmare so its best to avoid them. No, sorry,but for me it will not work well at all. I have tried, didnt like it one bit.
Btw i run 5.5g so am only 1g under stock, i said i had tried 4.5g but i dont use them now.
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...baddi oughtta be posting us pics of th red-light district!!!
You are thinking about the Nederlands (Holland), which is not the same as Denmark. :)
Back on topic...
I can't find a blue malossi spring, only RED =1500 YEL =1000 WHT=800 [...]
That means that the standart are 800rpm and that 800 rpm equals 30 kg (3,05.. Newton), thanks. :)
[...]
Btw i run 5.5g so am only 1g under stock, i said i had tried 4.5g but i dont use them now.
I thought the standart "limited" roller weight was 7g, so it would keep the rpm at what the standart CDI is limited to, but that 6,5 was what was best, when the rpm limiter in the CDI was removed. :) .... I'll have to test that soon then :p
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Do I also need a TORSION CONTROLLER ring http://www.malossiusaonline.com/Torsion_Controller_p/2512828.htm (http://www.malossiusaonline.com/Torsion_Controller_p/2512828.htm) along with the new spring?
While searching for Malossi springs I see a lot of "fits Kymco People 50" but no listings for the Agility 50. Do they take the same size clutch and contra springs?
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I thought the standart "limited" roller weight was 7g, so it would keep the rpm at what the standart CDI is limited to, but that 6,5 was what was best, when the rpm limiter in the CDI was removed. Smiley .... I'll have to test that soon then :p
Stock weight is def 6.5g rollers, i emailed Kymco UK not long after i got my A50 as there seemed some confusion at the time exactly what the stock weight was. O had assumed going with a stiffer torque/contra spring wojld let me go up in weight from stock but i guess that only works on 2-strokes with more torque than our sleepy 4t's. The stiffer spring and lighter rollers gives me good acceleration, well good compared to stock at least lol :D
Like has been said many times before on many other topics, what works for one may not work for someone else, so each to his own. Thats one of the good things about our little scoots, you can tune it pretty quickly and cheaply to the style that suits your own terrain and conditions etc.
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Stock weight is def 6.5g rollers, i emailed Kymco UK not long after i got my A50 as there seemed some confusion at the time exactly what the stock weight was. O had assumed going with a stiffer torque/contra spring wojld let me go up in weight from stock but i guess that only works on 2-strokes with more torque than our sleepy 4t's. The stiffer spring and lighter rollers gives me good acceleration, well good compared to stock at least lol :D
Like has been said many times before on many other topics, what works for one may not work for someone else, so each to his own. Thats one of the good things about our little scoots, you can tune it pretty quickly and cheaply to the style that suits your own terrain and conditions etc.
I think you're underestimating the Agility, as this is one of the most energyefficient 4-strokes (which makes it the most powerful) 50cc that is made, so it can compete with many 2-strokes, and have the same or more KW and Torque than the cheap or medium-prized 2-strokes. :D Especially if a 14 year old kid have tried to "tune" the 2-stoke engine (inexpierienced hands will often ruin it all). ;)
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Oregondad, try this link. http://www.provoscooter.com/malossi-torque-driver-spring-racing-blue-106.html (http://www.provoscooter.com/malossi-torque-driver-spring-racing-blue-106.html) Im not sure thiscwill fit an A50 but mayne give them a call or email and ask?
Im not really complaining Baddi, just grumbling a little bit :D
Overall im well happy with my A50, i only paid £380 for it (2008 model with 8,500km on it when i got it) and parts are cheap too so to me its just a fun bit of transport to get to work on or mess around locally on. I used to cycle the 9.5miles to work but im afraid my cycle is now covered in dust in my garage.
My only small moan would be with going uphills on a stock 4t, thats why i tuned my cvt as best i could to cope with my commute each day. I reckon a A50 with the 72cc kit would be perfect really with the extra torque for the hills. I dont really want to go over 50mph on it anyway.
I imagine one day i will get round to fitting the 72cc kit but i have too many other distractions at the moment so have no time or money for that right now.
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Oregondad, try this link. http://www.provoscooter.com/malossi-torque-driver-spring-racing-blue-106.html (http://www.provoscooter.com/malossi-torque-driver-spring-racing-blue-106.html) Im not sure thiscwill fit an A50 but mayne give them a call or email and ask?
This is 106% stiffer than your stock spring. Wow that sounds like a 2000rpm spring.
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...oem is about 700...
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This is 106% stiffer than your stock spring. Wow that sounds like a 2000rpm spring.
Not neccercarily 106%, as the agility spring for example already are 20 % stronger than the peaugeot speedflight spring (which by the way fits right over) (and yeah, i know the sf is a 2-stroke). :) This is why this measurement cant be used, as not all stock springs are the same strength on all scooters. :D
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Do I also need a TORSION CONTROLLER ring http://www.malossiusaonline.com/Torsion_Controller_p/2512828.htm (http://www.malossiusaonline.com/Torsion_Controller_p/2512828.htm) along with the new spring?
While searching for Malossi springs I see a lot of "fits Kymco People 50" but no listings for the Agility 50. Do they take the same size clutch and contra springs?
They are different. The part numbers do not match.
http://www.partsforscooters.com/Welcome?search=gy6+spring (http://www.partsforscooters.com/Welcome?search=gy6+spring)
That is a decent spring. I have the 1500 in my gy6. IF you use a torsion controller go with the 1000 spring because it does Pre load the spring a bit. The controller is mandatory on a power house, but not so much needed on a 50cc 4t. The OEM coil guard does the same job anyway.
I can get you the Malossi but it wouldn't really save you anything. Just a dollar, and shipping is 2 weeks. The link is for Hoca springs which I have 3 of, and they work fine.
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Is that the same as this one? http://www.partsforscooters.com/169-207_QMB139_Torque_Spring?ext=F (http://www.partsforscooters.com/169-207_QMB139_Torque_Spring?ext=F)
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Yes sir!
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Hey guys, i've done alot of thinking, and i think that i've figured out what the rpm are for, when saying how strong the spring are. :D
Perhaps its because the spring will force the variator down in gear faster than the rpm will fall, so the rpm wont fall below 1500 on a 1500rpm spring before it is fully downgeared, and you have stopped. :p
This also matches with what you've been saying about the feeling of more power, as you would start at higher rpm after breaking without stopping. It also matches with what i've been told, that the spring doesn't have any purpose but to keep the belt tight, as the rpm would never fall to the lower limit, as this limit is below idle speed when using the 30kg/800rpm spring. :)
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I think we have a winner!!! The difference in rpm shift points...
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Baddi from my understanding of the rpm rating system for the springs it is best described as this,
A 1000rpm torque spring will shift the rpm required to open the rear pulley up by 1000rpm.
A 1500rpm spring will shift it up 1500rpm, 2000rpm will shift it up 2000rpm, etc from stock. I think :-\
A stiffer spring will mean the gearing is shifting back to "1st" gear quicker after letting off the throttle than a stock or light spring, also when you go uphill and your rpm drops off, the stiffer spring will shift it down quicker than a softer or stock spring, thus improving uphill speed and overall acceration.
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Baddi from my understanding of the rpm rating system for the springs it is best described as this,
A 1000rpm torque spring will shift the rpm required to open the rear pulley up by 1000rpm.
A 1500rpm spring will shift it up 1500rpm, 2000rpm will shift it up 2000rpm, etc from stock. I think :-\
A stiffer spring will mean the gearing is shifting back to "1st" gear quicker after letting off the throttle than a stock or light spring, also when you go uphill and your rpm drops off, the stiffer spring will shift it down quicker than a softer or stock spring, thus improving uphill speed and overall acceration.
I still cant see how it will improve overall accelleration, as accelleration is upgearing, and this helps downgearing.
Eeeeerh well, i see how it will help accellerating after braking, but not from 0, which is how i would measure accelleration. :D
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Maybe it my imagination but i def feel quicker from a standing start to speed. My theory would be because it stops me gearing up too fast and losing my powerband? I imagine it like a gearbox on a car, if i accelerate 0-40 but change up gear too soon i wont be a quick to 40 as aomeone who uses all the power in each gear before changing up? I know we dont have "gears" as such but its the best way i can put across what i think happens.
Maybe come summer if i get some tinker time i will test out my theory if i get time and try stock, 1000rpm and 1500rpm spring on a timed 0-40 run and compare results.
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Maybe it my imagination but i def feel quicker from a standing start to speed. My theory would be because it stops me gearing up too fast and losing my powerband? I imagine it like a gearbox on a car, if i accelerate 0-40 but change up gear too soon i wont be a quick to 40 as aomeone who uses all the power in each gear before changing up? I know we dont have "gears" as such but its the best way i can put across what i think happens.
Maybe come summer if i get some tinker time i will test out my theory if i get time and try stock, 1000rpm and 1500rpm spring on a timed 0-40 run and compare results.
It will only gear up too soon if you drive with too heavy rollers with the standart spring, as these rollers then would be the right rollers for the stronger spring. This is the reason why we can choose diffrent weights of rollers, as heavier rollers will gear up at lower rpm, while lighter rollers will gear up at higher rpm. (Ask me for physics, if you want the proof ;) )
This was the main reason i started saying that the stronger spring were stupid, because you will restore more power from the engine when accellerating from 0, with the right roller weight to a lighter spring. :)
IF you test diffrent springs, then remember to try diffrent rollers for each spring, as the rollers are used to control the up-gearing. :)
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Yup, i know i would need to swap rollers to match the spring. After thinking about it tho i probably wont bother as i would be wasting my time. I remember i tuned my rollers and variator side 1st on my stock rated spring but no matter which weight rollers i used it did not achieve anywhere near the performance i gained from the stiffer rear spring in terms of re-acceleration and going uphills.
For me if i was on a stock rear spring i expect i would need a lot lighter rollers to gain anywhere near my uphill speeds and then with that i expect i would run into issues with losing some top end. The theory is a stiffer spring lets you use heavier rollers to compensate bit that wont work for me, anything over 5.5g, even 5.75g, is too heavy on all stiffness of spring for me, i cant live with crawling up to speed, i want it to get up there quicker.
As i said before, on a stock rated spring i drop to around 20mph up a hill i use to test run on, with all weights of rollers ( in fact on some 7.5g rollers it went under 20mph!!!) . On the same hill with my stiff spring and 5.5g rollers i can blast up the hill at 30-31mph no problem (ok maybe "blast" is not the best description of 30mph but you get my idea).
What i would like to do is have a run on my current set up and note speeds achieved in various conditions, then go back to 100% stock (but still derestricted) and see just how bad it actually feels as stock. I may well do that later in summer if i have some free time to burn.
I reckon once i re-fit my open filter and get my jetting perfect on it i will be running my A50 as best i can without going up to a BBK.
At the end of the day as long as each of us is happy with our own rides then who gives a monkey's? Thats whats so good about the scooter scene, each person can easily and pretty cheaply tune their scooter to what suits their own needs. :)
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I still cant see how it will improve overall accelleration, as accelleration is upgearing, and this helps downgearing.
Eeeeerh well, i see how it will help accellerating after braking, but not from 0, which is how i would measure accelleration. :D
It greatly helps take off because it stays on the lowest ratio until your torque pulls it open. Softer springs allow the torque drive to open sooner giving a taller gear to soon for most set ups. So you could be at 30=40mph before the gears even begin to move. That leaves a Whole lot of speed yet to come.
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Anyone have any experience with OKO brand springs?
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Oko is a Quality manufacturer. Many of their items are bootlegged tho. Just choose a reliable source.