KymcoForum.com
Scooters - Big Bore => Xciting 500 => Topic started by: sissy mary on February 26, 2012, 10:47:47 PM
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I need to pull my stock variator & clutch off to check things out after my second belt broke. What is the mm size of the variator and clutch nut's? :-* :-*
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Var is 27mm
Clutch is 19mm
Darn another belt? Or is this the same one you talked about last time? How about the washer with the inner bevel that goes behind the entire var on the crankshaft? Bevel goes toward engine. That in correctly?
You prob remember me posting these pics -- maybe they'll be of help. Of course one can always use an impact gun too. http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=3814.0 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=3814.0)
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Thanks, I looked at the parts list on one of the parts web sites, and it says the variator nut is 18mm, and the clutch nut is 14mm? I guess it is the thread size???? ??? I knew by looking at them that they were larger than that! Once again thanks. Now if I can get them off without the use of a tool to hold the var in place while I try to get the nut off I'll be stylin. :-*
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You can use a large "strap wrench" also. Something like an oil filter wrench.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=opera&rls=en&q=Strap+wrench&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15140263863974557574&sa=X&ei=TSBMT5zNJYrnggekr_z1DQ&ved=0CJIBEPMCMAA (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=opera&rls=en&q=Strap+wrench&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15140263863974557574&sa=X&ei=TSBMT5zNJYrnggekr_z1DQ&ved=0CJIBEPMCMAA)
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Yeah, Sissy that's gotta be thread sizes. Well, I don't know how to do it without either a holding tool or impact wrench. I think it's impossible actually. I couldn't even get the var nut by holding the holding tool with just my bare arm strength. That's why I had to come up with the piece of angle steel (old tent stake I think) wedged under the air box. I reckon a small piece of hardwood would do too. ie. oak wood. Even with all this holding it it takes a MIGHTY pull on the breaker bar to get the nut broken loose. Depends on how tight the last mechanic put it on -- which should be pretty darn tight!
The clutch is a similar tightness. There's nothing to rotate the holding tool into there so I hold it by hand and bang the end wrench with a 6 lb. shorty sledge hammer. Have to bang several times usually and of course the wrench falls off after almost every bang. Even once it starts to move it's an incredible feat of strength to make it come the rest of the way loose! I usually have what feels like pulled muscles for days after loosening either one. :D
By the way, I noticed a hairline crack in the washer under the var nut a few times ago so ordered a replacement. The manual instructs to smear a film of motor oil on the under side of the var nut when going back on. I guess so you get a proper torque reading if using a torque wrench. I don't use one but always put a thin film on anyway.
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Further observations and experience. When reassembling, once you're to the point of putting the var nut back on, I screw it on by stages, rotating the var a bit between stages and noting how the belt is riding. I've had the belt get pinched and if you tighten nut all the way you're really going to pinch the heck out of the belt. Not to mention you'll think the nut is tight when it might not be so. I even use a smooth ended socket extension (anything with a smooth tip) to go in between the pulley faces and push the belt out away from the narrow low point.
You'll know if the belt is getting pinched when you rotate the pulley the belt coming out of the pulley is lower than the belt going in. Also you get a grabbing sensation when rotating. When it's right it'll make a little grabbing giggling noise but not much.
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I contacted a dealer & I can purchase the variator holding tool for $25.00 & $12.00 shipping. I think I will need it! :-*
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Yeah, that's not bad considering you won't have to mess with modifying it. ;)
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How to remove the variator nut on a Kymco Super 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYCasW5pY24#)
I just posted this for another fella. There are dozens of ways to get the var off. One tip is squeeze the belt in the middle before loosening the var nut. This will pull the torque drive open, and give you plenty of slack in the belt so the reinstall is easier.
Search around utube and see some of the other methods. I personally DON'T use an impact driver but it may help. One of those Harbor freight cheepos' are fine.
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Right. I got one of those Harbor Freight electric impacts and then never used it. I guess my reasoning at the time was if my wrenches wouldn't do the job, I'd be ready with that. Zombie, I've tried squeezing the belt in the middle and brother, on the Xciting 500 it has no effect! Now I have gone around the driven pulley tapping the belt in deeper. Mainly I guess rotating the var while slowly tightening the nut will take the belt deeper into the driven and give you more slack.
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I bought one of the harbor freight impact wrenches also. On sale, $40.00 can't beat that. I'm going to use it to put everything back together. This will sure make the next time more easy. :-*
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Be CAREFUL! It's easier than you think to shear the crankshaft off. Don't go all NASCAR pit crew on it.
Nut Size? What were you thinking Sissy? Never mind...
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Those Harbor freight electric impact wrenches pull a small fraction of the torque of a Snap On pneumatic impact. Still go easy. I put my shoes on the variator to hold it. Otherwise you're violently turning the motor backwards.
I've probably been through 8 of those Harbor freight impact wrenches. I just buy a 1 year warranty with it every time and they'll replace it if it breaks.($5.99 I think) I only paid for the first one.
Works great for occasional use, but we beat the hell out of it installing lifts. With the warranty why not?
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I am going to replace the whole variator with a malossi as my old one is shot. So it does not matter if the old fan/outer pully half is damaged or not. So could someone hold the variator steady with a long screw driver, or as Hoolander stated, with a piece of wood to get it off while I turn the nut? I hate to buy the removal tool if it will not work getting the new melossi off! Also, can the clutch be removed without a special tool? I want to inspect the splines before I order a $265.00 part. :-*
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You might want to check IF the Malossi comes with the outer pulley. I have not seen a Malossi kit that contains this part. Same goes for the drive boss. Some models have it included, and others you have to purchase it separately. If you HAVE to re use your outer pulley scuff it up with scotch brite (green) or 400-600grit emory cloth.
Homemade variator / clutch bell holder tool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIVAimvORFI#ws)
Homemade Hub Holder for Suzuki Burgman 400 - hold variator and clutch bell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtXSliMjvLk#ws)
Chinese scooter compression spring change 50 cc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxphUXeTwRY#ws)
VARIATOR BASICS 101 DIO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok_3rkPg8aU#)
Don't assume anything is disposable. If you keep searching utube there are a lot more tips.
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Yes Hoolander, this is the belt I had put on when it snapped the first time. So this is the second time the bush/sleeve froze up inside of the outter pulley half. This is why I am going with the Melossi. The second time it happened I did not have 1,000 miles on it before it stuck again. It has to be a design flaw? >:(And yes, the new Melossi comes with everything including a new clutch spring. :-*
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>:(And yes, the new Melossi comes with everything including a new clutch spring.
SWEEEEET!
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I wouldn't try holding the var with a long screwdriver. Remember Axy tried that and broke fins off and wound up getting a holding tool anyway. I'm sure others have done the same. Only hope of that is if the last mechanic put it back really loose and I wouldn't count on that. ;) The wood block I mentioned was for wedging the holding tool against. That is I figure you could use wood instead of the angle iron I use.
As for the clutch, I don't see getting it off without a holding tool or impact wrench. Once you get it off, then you need either another special tool (clutch compressor) or some really big C clamps and some nerve and time to get the clutch off the driven pulley. Getting the outer nut off gets the bell off and lets you take off the clutch/driven pulley as a unit. Do you know yet if you MUST replace the clutch torque spring? Or the clutch springs themselves? To do either you have to take clutch completely off.
If the torque spring is replaced with a stronger or longer spring, then your rpms will go up for some or all of the speed range. That is unless the malossi var is geared to compensate which it may be, I don't know. Also a longer/stronger torque spring will put more stress/tension on the belt and variator -- again, unless the var is engineered to compensate. It may be that a malossi belt is actually longer than stock which would compensate. That could also explain why some people have had malossi belts break -- that is they may have used the belt without the variator install. Lots of things to think about. :D But don't let that stop you Sissy! We'll help get you through this!
Just to inspect the clutch you only need take off the outermost nut, spacer, and bell. Now that I think about it, you might not even need to do that. Might could just shine a flashlight through the slots in the bell.
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I watched both times when the new belt-& rollers were put in so I know what everything looks like. I need to get both off (var & clutch) to get the new belt on, and the guy that did the install in Ill used a huge impact wrench. So I may just bite the bullet and take it to a dealer. The var tool is about $42.00 & the clutch tool is way over $100.! So I may go that route. I wanted to save $, but this may be the way to go? I do want them to put everything back together with my impact wrench, so I can inspect everything yearly. I may get the var holder first so I can make sure the splines are ok, but then again, why buy it if it will not work on the malossi var? :-\ I sure wish I knew what was going on with the stock var as it would be cheaper to do a stock replacement! But I don't want to worry about it freezing up again in the middle of no where. This has been a real pain in the butt. :-*
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Oh by the way. When I looked at the parts pictures & part numbers. It says that the seal (on-in the var), is an oil seal. Someone had said it was a dust seal? All other var's come with grease. So it must have come from the factory with grease in it? Where the grease go's and why it is dry now no one knows? The dealers have no idea as they know nothing about nothing? The d-bag's at Kymco USA are worthless. They will not answer questions, let you talk to a tech person, NOTHING. They don't even return calls. Buy their product's and F-off I guess? I would like to stay stock, but when you read this happening to people at 15,000 miles, it's scary. I may try to call Malossi USA and pick their brains? :-*
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I think I posted this before... The "o" ring is a dust seal. It prevents belt dust from interfering with the drive boss SELF lubing process. The drive boss is a VERY special piece. It is made from silica bronze. The inner sleeve in the var is made of tempered bronze. The two interact to self lube. The grease is supplied to begin the auto lube process. If you install the parts DRY galling occurs, and LOCKS THE VAR. Grease should NEVER be used after the var has "broken in". The "O" ring prevents the primer grease from escaping, and stops intrusion later.
SPI has the BEST price on the var in the US. 10% off for forum members too.
Sissy you can do the work w/ a strap wrench, and your impact. Bite the bullet,and try. If you fail... close it up, and road trip to the dealer. With the info here you may know more than them anyway.
Psss... When applying the grease use a TINY bit, and wipe it off w/ your fingers. That is ALL it needs.(inside, and outside of the boss ONLY)
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That's good to know. I bought a breaker bar, 19 & 27mm impact sockets, and I found a large strap wrench at auto zone fro about $16.00! It included 2 wrenches. One for small stuff like oil filters, and a large one for big spin on water filters and such. If this does not work, then I will be forced to buy the var holder, or have the dealer do it. I hope I can get the var off so I can inspect the splines and such. If all is good, then I can take the clutch to a dealer and have them put the new spring in. I am going to call Malossi USA monday and pick their brain on their var. What is the best grease to use? :-*
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Malossi includes a small packet. I use Ford specific wheel bearing grease (you can get it at NAPA). It is Hi Temp, and doesn't melt away.
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hi, i've used a impact wrench many times on clutch and varitors. take off nuts with lowest setting ie 1. if they dont come then use next highest setting . install nuts with same setting you used to take nuts off. no problem i've done it hundreds of times in my 25 years of bike wrenching. see yea,ike
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"Take it to the dealer"!!!
No way man! Use you hands and feet. You hold the variator with your feet to get that nut off. All you need is a vice to hold the clutch nut and a strap wrench to get the clutch apart. Once you get it loose spin it the rest of the way off while keeping pressure on the top(Pulley). The spring will pop the two halves apart. Just keep pressure so it doesn't fly across the shop. Use your feet to put it back together. Both feet on both sides of the pulley push down until you can screw the nut on by hand. Assemble in a vise the same way it came apart.
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Thanks everyone. I wiil try to do all of this myself. If I get the Malossi, I hope their spring is not to strong to use the (both feet) approach. Or I can get 2 large clamps to do it I guess. It sure would be nice to have the bucks to take it to a dealer and have it done. New Malosi var, new Malossi clutch or Dr Pulley Hit clutch, new kevlar belt! Would be nice.:-*
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Thanks Munks and everyone. I tried to get the var off today, but the guy in Ill put it on with a huge impack wrench and I was not able to budge it with mine! I tried it with a socket and breaker bar, but the strap wrench was near the point of breaking and had to call it quits. I even tried to wedge in an open end wrench between the var and the clutch, but the var nut is on so tight I was afraid that I was going to crack the housing of the var and or clutch. I think I might put the bike on the trailer, take it to my mechanic, have him zip them off with his impack wrench, and then put everything back together again myself with my wrench. Well thats all for now. :-*
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Thanks everyone. I wiil try to do all of this myself. If I get the Malossi, I hope their spring is not to strong to use the (both feet) approach. Or I can get 2 large clamps to do it I guess. It sure would be nice to have the bucks to take it to a dealer and have it done. New Malosi var, new Malossi clutch or Dr Pulley Hit clutch, new kevlar belt! Would be nice.:-*
About a grand too... $1,000.00. So much for CHEAP transport