KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: bunker buster on February 21, 2012, 05:01:41 AM
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I have the Kymco GV, on cold morning it takes 5-7 minutes for the engine to warm up. There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.
Will this harm the engine?
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There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.
Will this harm the engine?
That's the best you can do for the engine - warming up with medium load.
Idling is useless, wasted fuel and wasted waering and pollution.
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I have the Kymco GV, on cold morning it takes 5-7 minutes for the engine to warm up. There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.
Will this harm the engine?
I am with ts1.
"Warming up" engine of a stationary vehicle is waste of time, money and energy (literally).
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My People S 125 has an automatic choke so I just get on her and go.
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I start and go. If it's running without strange noises, the oil is getting around, and that's all you need. Actually, I start it before I put on my helmet, then go.
Richard L.
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Sit on it, Start it, Ride off. If the engine is obviously running cold then I try to keep the throttle where it seems to be running the smoothest.
I don't like idling to warm up an engine.
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Alright I'm in good company. Thanks for the feedback.
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leting a scoot worm up a few min.is good for the scoot in the long run dont be in a hurry to take of leting it worm up can safe you some cash later.
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OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS! I should have let this one go but... When the oil is cold it is too thick to flow thru the tiny oil pump in you engines. Therefore the engine relies on residual oil for cold starts. The auto choke is now on adding extra fuel that can wash the cylinder clean. Yes Kymco has taken steps to negate these ill effects so it is not a big issue. The other problem is the piston will expand faster than the Cylinder creating tighter tolerances. The valve train has not warmed to the point of closing the gap between the rockers, and valves so riding cold is really "slapping" the valve stems. Idling is also not good for these engines. Soooooo Start it let it run for 3-4 minutes, and shut it off. The residual heat will thin the oil, expand the cylinder, and close the valve lash. This takes another few minutes.
I only posted this for the TRULY anal people. I always warm my engines first.
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well said zombie.
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Death by Garbage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tKr8aCEYDA#)
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OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS! I should have let this one go but... When the oil is cold it is too thick to flow thru the tiny oil pump in you engines. .
I have commented this many times on the forum. This was very true 40 or 50 years ago, especially with mineral mono-grade oils of lower quality.
Nowadays, good semi-synthetic 10W-40 oil has the same lubrication (flowing) characteristics at -30 C and +130 C, so warm vs. cold oil is not an issue anymore.
The biggest problem is the time it takes for the oil to reach all parts of the system after initial cranking, and this is why manufacturers have started adding "stickiness" additives, usually magnesium based,so enough oil "clings" to various moving parts of the engine until fresh oil flushes everything upon start. I know that for car engines, it can take 10-12 seconds for the sump oil to flow fully through some large engines during cold start, and it is probably just a few seconds for small scooter engines.
I am aware you said that this topic is valid for those "anally retentive", so I am just broadening the perspective, and my opinion is that oil flow during cold start with good quality oil of modern oil companies is not a serious topic. It surely was in 50's and 60's.
It is true that the engine part dimensions change with change of temperature. Temperature expansion coefficient of aluminum is, for example, roughly double the TEC of cast iron. Considering that engines operate in temperatures between -30 and +120 C (extremes), parts are not made to be perfect fits, but certain tolerance is calculated and oil, gaskets, O rings etc. are used to fill the gaps and provide compression. It would be, in fact, very difficult to comment if the engine runs better in terms of parts fitting "better" when cold or warm. This may sound like a paradox, but engine is a collection of connected bits that are worn differently, therefore gaps are different in different parts, and these gaps increase as the engine ages. It is true that thermal expansion (warm vs. cold engine) might make up for some of that wear, but new engine is not fitted to be "tight" either. Really, the system is too stochastic to draw any definitive conclusions about this.
However, undoubtedly, engines that reach working temperature of 90 C run the best and wear the least and it is only logical to reach that temperature using the engine in moderate rev range and driving, and not wearing it while it is stationary, and then wear the engine by using it (driving it).
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With idling the engine takes much longer to warm up than with driving.
You can read the data from OBD 2 etc. (example from Lexus IS 200):
idling initial exhaust gas temperature: 350°C, cruising: 5-600°C
idling initial cooling system warm up: <=0.1K/s; cruising: >= 0.3K/s.
This should approximately apply to every otto engine.
(Scooter) Engine idling is useless for the transmission (push a Burgman650 before/after the trip!).
As zombie and axy stated, engines have residual oil pockets and the oil is adhesive, lubricating takes only few revs - a second.
Last but not least: Idling warm up is just prohibited in my country.
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beleave me you can harm something like the crank it well bend if to much presure put on it.
I know because I have done it. Rideing with cold oil puts presure on parts that cant handle it.
So it all come down to( HOW LONG DO YOU WANT YOUR SCOOT TO LAST) :'(
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Rideing with cold oil puts presure on parts that cant handle it.
Is there some magic property of warmed up oil that diminishes that "pressure", so parts can handle it?
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@blue
Of course that is a potential danger. But my throttle is not only binary 0 or 1.
The English manual for my Kymco X500 asks only for sufficient time to let the oil lubricate the engine - which takes fractions of second and is very different from warming up the engine.
In the German manual there is an additional advise not to rev beyond 6000rpm while temp gauge indicates cold.
Tell me how long would you like to idle? 1 minute or 1 hour or ...? Why exactly that duration?
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All of the parts are warming and expanding and such whether there is any load on the engine or not. I can't see any benefit from idling it to warm it for any period longer than it takes for it to accept some additional throttle. I'm using 0w-40 which flows easily when cold. I would think that idling my engine for 5 minutes to warm it up before riding is harder on it than starting it and riding it away on whatever throttle it accepts cleanly. Back when I used to ride CL's, TX's and such I took longer to start riding because they wouldn't accept throttle input for longer. My feeling is that if it accepts throttle then it is time to go.
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Start it up and by the time you have put on your helmet and gloves, you should be ready to go.
The engine will not get fully warmed up for ten to 15 minutes of driving, which you can feel in the power.
I have to say that initial power from a cold start is better on my Super 8 150 than my previous Vespa ET4.
I love the automatic choke!
I have never seen any benefit to letting the bike idle for too long at start and I have had different scooters and motorcycles.
Just ride and don't worry about it so much.
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Start it up and by the time you have put on your helmet and gloves, you should be ready to go.
This is what I do, minus the helmet. :)
So, helmet is on, I start the engine, put the gloves on (15 seconds), roll the scooter backwards for 10 meters (5 seconds), both at home and in front of the place where I work) and off I go.
At that point, the oil is all over the engine. I do not rev it high for a few kilometers.
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Is there some magic property of warmed up oil that diminishes that "pressure", so parts can handle it?
In some way if you keep your scoot in a shed keep a 100 watt light buld next to the motor but yet far enough so gas or oil wound trip on it. that well keep the engine block worm for easy starting.
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Regardless of whether you have synthetic or petroleum oil it takes at least 30 seconds for the oil to reach all parts of the engine. Especially with a 4-stroke.
All of the parts are warming and expanding and such whether there is any load on the engine or not. I can't see any benefit from idling it to warm it for any period longer than it takes for it to accept some additional throttle.
I agree.
You still don't want to put a lot of load on the engine as different parts exchange heat at different rates. If one part heats faster than another it expands and the clearance is reduced.
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In some way if you keep your scoot in a shed keep a 100 watt light buld next to the motor but yet far enough so gas or oil wound trip on it. that well keep the engine block worm for easy starting.
You're wasting more energy with the light bulb than to just let it idle for 4-5 minutes
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I would suggest to some forum members to study a bit mechanics and basic thermodynamics, for example, what Saybolt Universal Second is.
It would take 30 seconds for oil to flow through regular 4-stroke engine if SAE30 mono-grade oil was used at -30 C...
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http://www.kc-synthetic-oil.com/easier-engine-cold-start.html (http://www.kc-synthetic-oil.com/easier-engine-cold-start.html)
Your right I don't know anything axy. I've never rebuilt engines. I've never takin automotive classes. I'm not going to school for mechanical engineering. KIss my thermodynamic ass. So maybe it doesn't quite take 30 seconds but what's an extra few seconds to be sure.
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Oh, and for those who don't like to read. Just skip to the part where it says quote: "Considering that up to 60 percent of all engine wear occurs during cold starts, this immediate lubrication is essential to long-term engine life."
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Regardless of whether you have synthetic or petroleum oil it takes at least 30 seconds for the oil to reach all parts of the engine. Especially with a 4-stroke.
I can't imagine 30 seconds with a scooter engine. Of course with ship engines. But that's the difference between 3cm and 3m stroke, an engine designed for uncountable cold starts and an engine which is rarely completely stopped.
Some oil always rests in bearings, pipes and pockets. You can open an engine which was untouched for months and there will still be oil everywhere. There is a signifikant difference (10% and more) between the amount needed for the first filling and following oil+filter changes.
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Okay, okay. My 30 seconds for the oil was a little exaggerated. The point is it does take time. And no way is it okay to run a cold engine at WOT right away. Everybody knows different metals expand at different rates. That's why engines with cast iron blocks and aluminum heads typically blow head gaskets easy.
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You're wasting more energy with the light bulb than to just let it idle for 4-5 minutes
True you are. But from what I have been reading everyone wants to just jump on it and ride.
its just a nature way of life to let any motor worm up befor takeing off.Just like geting out of bed
do you just spring up as soon as your eyes open. .......jjjjjust saying.
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I have commented this many times on the forum. This was very true 40 or 50 years ago, especially with mineral mono-grade oils of lower quality.
Nowadays, good semi-synthetic 10W-40 oil has the same lubrication (flowing) characteristics at -30 C and +130 C, so warm vs. cold oil is not an issue anymore.
The biggest problem is the time it takes for the oil to reach all parts of the system after initial cranking, and this is why manufacturers have started adding "stickiness" additives, usually magnesium based,so enough oil "clings" to various moving parts of the engine until fresh oil flushes everything upon start. I know that for car engines, it can take 10-12 seconds for the sump oil to flow fully through some large engines during cold start, and it is probably just a few seconds for small scooter engines.
I am aware you said that this topic is valid for those "anally retentive", so I am just broadening the perspective, and my opinion is that oil flow during cold start with good quality oil of modern oil companies is not a serious topic. It surely was in 50's and 60's.
It is true that the engine part dimensions change with change of temperature. Temperature expansion coefficient of aluminum is, for example, roughly double the TEC of cast iron. Considering that engines operate in temperatures between -30 and +120 C (extremes), parts are not made to be perfect fits, but certain tolerance is calculated and oil, gaskets, O rings etc. are used to fill the gaps and provide compression. It would be, in fact, very difficult to comment if the engine runs better in terms of parts fitting "better" when cold or warm. This may sound like a paradox, but engine is a collection of connected bits that are worn differently, therefore gaps are different in different parts, and these gaps increase as the engine ages. It is true that thermal expansion (warm vs. cold engine) might make up for some of that wear, but new engine is not fitted to be "tight" either. Really, the system is too stochastic to draw any definitive conclusions about this.
However, undoubtedly, engines that reach working temperature of 90 C run the best and wear the least and it is only logical to reach that temperature using the engine in moderate rev range and driving, and not wearing it while it is stationary, and then wear the engine by using it (driving it).
That is EXACTLY what I said... In less words tho~
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Is there some magic property of warmed up oil that diminishes that "pressure", so parts can handle it?
The worst of the witches.... The Evil Ethanolllllll. No not really.
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All of the parts are warming and expanding and such whether there is any load on the engine or not. I can't see any benefit from idling it to warm it for any period longer than it takes for it to accept some additional throttle. I'm using 0w-40 which flows easily when cold. I would think that idling my engine for 5 minutes to warm it up before riding is harder on it than starting it and riding it away on whatever throttle it accepts cleanly. Back when I used to ride CL's, TX's and such I took longer to start riding because they wouldn't accept throttle input for longer. My feeling is that if it accepts throttle then it is time to go.
That's the best answer so far. IMHO
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Congrats!!! Justwanttoride
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And the award goes to .... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqUAuKjXOI#ws)
Forgot to link it...
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If the issue is that oil needs to be thin enough by the heat to flow in the engine, wouldn't it be better to replace it with an even thinner W oil?
Personally I don't warm up the bike even at 32deg, so long as its willing to move, I would ride it.
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I give Up...
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That is EXACTLY what I said... In less words tho~
I have no problems if somebody else and I have the same opinion on the subject, ESPECIALLY if it is correct.
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I guess that's Axy being Axy
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If the issue is that oil needs to be thin enough by the heat to flow in the engine, wouldn't it be better to replace it with an even thinner W oil?
Well, actually, no.
SAE number does not denote "thickness", it denotes oil's flowing characteristics under certain conditions.
Using the "thinnest" fully synthetic or polymer oil is a great idea for modern turbo charged engines made with space age modern materials, especially in extreme (very cold and warm climates, high loads).
Using very simple and cheap dino oil that is also "thick" may be a great idea for simple and older (mileage-wise) engines because it may enhance compression compared to high tech oils and it will be easy on some parts of the engine that might be influenced by high tech oils and additives.
We spoke here only about SAE values so far.
Oils have also a number of other specification they have to adhere to. Oil "quality" is not being read out of its SAE number, but much more from its API gradation (S or C, for gasoline or diesel engines).
Furthermore, there is a number of special additives in oils that cannot be read from neither of these values.
I would say that ANY Kymco scoot will hapily drive forever on semi-synthetic 10W-40 API SG oil or higher if driven 10 seconds after it is started, outside air temperature being from -30 C to +50 C, regularly changed every 2-4.000 kms or once per year, whichever first. This is what every Kymco scooter driver should know about oils and that's it. Everyhing else we spoke about is "anally retentive", as our colleague once said.
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Axy, why once per year. Does the oil get stale? Sounds funny, but I'm not trying.
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Axy, why once per year. Does the oil get stale? Sounds funny, but I'm not trying.
Yes, it does. One of the roles of oil in the engine system is that it acts as a detergent: it does not only lubricate engine parts, it also cleans various areas of the engine, removes char created by combustion and dissolves it using various additives.
This is especially true with oil in air cooled engines that deteriorate much faster than oil in water cooled engines that run cooler.
If you wish, you may call the change of oil's properties due to prolonged usage to be "oil becoming stale".
I would also suggest to ask oil manufacturers why once per year. I do not have an organic chemistry laboratory at hand to check is the tipping point of oil's quality 9 months or 14 months, so I go with their recommendation.
Did not want to sound funny either...
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Axy, why once per year. Does the oil get stale? Sounds funny, but I'm not trying.
The unused oil in an opened container will "get stale" in a year, even oil in a new unopened container has a shelf life. It took millions of years to become crude oil - but we don't use it in that state.
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If i dont let my A50 idle on the stand for 3-4mins in the morning then it tends to stall when i open the throttle pulling away at lights after a couple of miles? If i start it up and wait a couple of mins till the auto choke goes off its fine everytime but in the cold, wet or damp if.i dont wait till the choke goes off it will stall unless i feather the throttle when i pull away from lights?
I normally turn it on then go in and get my gear on, by then its good to go.
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The unused oil in an opened container will "get stale" in a year, even oil in a new unopened container has a shelf life. It took millions of years to become crude oil - but we don't use it in that state.
New oil will NOT spoil.. The addition of combustion by-products will "foul" the oil, rendering it harmful to metals. I don't know the chemistry here but oil will become acidic, and actually "etch" bearing surfaces. NOT always tho. Depends on region,degree of use, and Other sctuff!
Axy! I F'n LUV U BRO! RESPECT!
Git um dog~
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Ts1! Your hanging by a thread! Luv u a little tho... Maybe once I get to know u.
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If i dont let my A50 idle on the stand for 3-4mins in the morning then it tends to stall when i open the throttle pulling away at lights after a couple of miles?
Some posts should be stickies.
EVERY classic A50 and A125 2006/7/8/9 has the same issue.
I have investigated this and found out that resistance of auto choke is wrong and not according to specs. I also doubt that Kymco has changed supplier who is supplying wrong choke, ending up with scoots having this behavior.
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It seems the air coming into a scooter will have some effect on the engines' responsiveness and performance. Cold air will cause condensation and icing under the right circumstances, so why not let it warm up for a minute? Reading about an inherent flaw in the A125's auto-choke because of Kymco's supply chain makes me want to guarantee that the engine is smooth and hesitation-free before I ride. I don't think many of us adjust our carbs every day based on temperature outside to lean it out 2 percent or so if necessary. If scoot doesn't accelerate at a light when there is some impatient jerk behind you then it is a safety issue. For safety's sake I let it warm up some just to make sure I can get away from these types. I don't care about the gas 'wasted' while I warm it up. I still get 60+ mpg in the winter. :D
Thank you Axy for the info on the auto-choke.
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Cold air carries more oxygen, so a genereal preheat isn't good.
But of course many Kymco scoots have a controlled carburetor heating, although not the very basic ones (like Agility).
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Some posts should be stickies.
EVERY classic A50 and A125 2006/7/8/9 has the same issue.
I have investigated this and found out that resistance of auto choke is wrong and not according to specs. I also doubt that Kymco has changed supplier who is supplying wrong choke, ending up with scoots having this behavior.
I am not a fan of auto chokes. They do not "read" the engine at all. Simple 12 volt heating elements. I have replaced every one w/ a manual choke, and only need it to start. I never have to ride with one engaged.
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Man I hated that auto-choke BS with the stock carb. It gave trouble all the time. Most engines with carburetors need a little throttle bump on a cold start. If I even attempted to bump the throttle the thing wouldn't start for an hour. My 4 wheeler will not start, even hot, without a throttle bump. I might go for a ride on that tonight! Sorry guys I can't live with out 4 wheels and a clutch somewhere in my life.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just install a manual choke from the factory? How lazy are you that you can't just pull a lever for cold starts? I'll swear by my Dellorto. Mine starts fist kick every time(I burnt through my starter wire on the hot exhaust, oops). Meaning to fix that. All I need now is 20 seconds max of choke and a bump of the throttle in order for it to idle okay. That auto-choke would rev the engine for 5 minutes or more if you didn't go ahead and start riding.
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New oil will NOT spoil.. The addition of combustion by-products will "foul" the oil, rendering it harmful to metals. I don't know the chemistry here but oil will become acidic, and actually "etch" bearing surfaces. NOT always tho. Depends on region,degree of use, and Other sctuff!
I went to Exxon-Mobil and asked;
1. Why should oil in cars be changed after one year if not driven much?
2. Does motor oil become stale on the shelf?
They answered- The shelf-life of motor oil unopened is 5 years. You must change the oil
once a year regardless of mileage due to condensation build-up in the
motor oil which can turn into an acidic fluid which can corrode your
metal components inside your engine.
-MJ
Richard L.
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I went to Exxon-Mobil and asked;
1. Why should oil in cars be changed after one year if not driven much?
2. Does motor oil become stale on the shelf?
They answered- The shelf-life of motor oil unopened is 5 years. You must change the oil
once a year regardless of mileage due to condensation build-up in the
motor oil which can turn into an acidic fluid which can corrode your
metal components inside your engine.
-MJ
F'n WOW. I got goose bumps...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiWPmLjp1aE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiWPmLjp1aE)
Richard L.
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I have goosebumps people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiWPmLjp1aE#)
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Man I hated that auto-choke BS with the stock carb. It gave trouble all the time. Most engines with carburetors need a little throttle bump on a cold start.
Well, I think that auto choke, if properly dimensioned, is a great thing, both on cars with carbs (do they exist today??) and scoots.
Never had a problem with them, in fact, for an average driver, it is much more difficult to manage manual choke and adjust it as the engine warms up, and then disengage it completely when warm.
There are women driving scoots too, no pun intended, generally they could not care less about choke and how it works.
Scoots have to be simple machines well suited for everybody, not only for us who tend to know more about them.
This "throttle bump" story is interesting. All my scoots until P250S, when cold, had to be started without any throttle at all and some throttle when warm.
However, P250S, when completely cold, needs an exact twist of the throttle, and then suddenly release of it, in order to fire up.
If you do not use it, it will not start, if you use too much for too long, it will flood.
Interesting.
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OMG >:( just let your scoot worm up dont be in a big hurry to get some wear. Realy is it that hard of a thing to do. IM ALL READY GOING BALD STOP MAKEING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT.
....................loVE YOU GUYS ...............................
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I noticed myself... (4) pages for warming up! Some passionate blokes here EH!
Blue, Just sit on your hands, and type w/ your tongue. (post up some picts.)
Weird Tongue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM3hssvV0rs#)
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OMG >:( just let your scoot worm up dont be in a big hurry to get some wear. Realy is it that hard of a thing to do. IM ALL READY GOING BALD STOP MAKEING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT.
....................loVE YOU GUYS ...............................
I'm with you blue
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I'm with you blue
thanks I just cant wait tell rideing season then I can blow off my steam on the road and not on line lol.
its been to long of a winter just wana ride.
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I hear ya. I can't wait til I can ride in a T-shirt again.
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It's really fun reading all of your responses. Ride and have your own experiences with these very inexpensive little mechanical marvels.
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beleave me you can harm something like the crank it well bend if to much presure put on it.
I know because I have done it. Rideing with cold oil puts presure on parts that cant handle it.
So it all come down to( HOW LONG DO YOU WANT YOUR SCOOT TO LAST) :'(
I was a M/C dealer for 16 years and Ridden since 1962. My new, then, 1969 VW Beetle OWNER Manual said to start the engine and drive off. It said that you get ZERO mpg while idling. I had never read or heard that message before.
Many of the OPINIONS expressed on this thread have merit, but my experience is that riding the machine with minimal warm up time has no adverse wear on an engine, especially when a synthetic oil is used and throttle is moderate.
If you live on a street where you have to enter a high speed roadway after only a few blocks of warm up riding, then it may be smart to use synthetic oil or find a different route allowing you to enter the higher speed street until your engine is warmed.
If your scoot does not have a carb warmer and/or automatic choke, consider going to a one size larger idle jet. Your bike will run better while still not warmed up completely. It is jetted unreasonably lean because of the application of automobile and truck pollution standards even though M/C and scooter exhaust contribute only about 2% of the vehicle pollution.
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Hit the Nail Frank T.
"It is jetted unreasonably lean because of the application of automobile and truck pollution standards even though M/C and scooter exhaust contribute only about 2% of the vehicle pollution."
This statement caught my eye. While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants! I can look them up to post but so can anyone that disbelieves.
Not too start another crisis, just an interesting fact.
And now ... Back to our show!
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This statement caught my eye. While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants!
2 stroke for sure.
I would not say that would be true for 4 stroke scooters, and especially not for those currently being sold as new. Most vehicles produced after 2001. are at least Euro III compliant, so there is no reason why my People 4 stroke would cause some extremely excessive pollution compared to other vehicles sold after 2001. This is why it has secondary exhaust fumes recirculation, for example... However, I am not sure that norms for cars and bikes are the same.
It also depends on what is the baseline for comparison. 2 stroke 500 cc motorcycle from 1970s will for sure put out more pollutants than 1000cc Euro VI engine. :)
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Hit the Nail Frank T.
While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants! I can look them up to post but so can anyone that disbelieves.
Not too start another crisis, just an interesting fact.
And now ... Back to our show!
It's true. Mythbusters did an episode on this. They compared car vs. motorcycle from 80s, 90s, and 00s.
Cars and trucks, in the US at least, are much more regulated than motorcycles.
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There are certain unregulated by products that all engines emit (2t / 4t). The smaller "more efficient" motors actually emit far more PPM than their larger "less efficient " counter parts. Nitrogen sulphate something, and carbon hydrochloride something. Basically acid rain ingredients I think.
The whole subject is counter intuitive!
2t's are on their death bed in the U.S.. No more NEW 2t outboards/scooters/cycles unless they meet guidelines so strict they are no longer efficient/cost effective to buy. Never mind the fun factor... Who wants a Cat Converter on a 490cc Moto Cross Expansion chamber. Defeats the purpose.
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http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~kenneth-weston/chapter3.pdf (http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~kenneth-weston/chapter3.pdf) It's all in here. About 1/3rd of the way down the document. Engine temp. is a factor as well.
NOT trying to goad any responses, just some interesting reading if you like that kind of stuff.
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If you look at Asian countries, even the modern ones, where scooter use is far more popular than cars, they all suffer from smog and polution in the air much more than in the West. Granted in some areas they run their old scoots till they die but even the new modern asiian countries where they have cheap new chinese scoots its pretty bad.
Be interesting to see if anyone did an experiment on how much better or worse overall for the enviroment running a modern scoot everyday compares to a modern car. Sombody must have looked at the data for that?
Im with Zombie in that they are more polluting in general since they do give out more ppm's but given that they use less fuel and oil i assume that ove the year it would work out greener overall. I think :-\
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Im with Zombie in that they are more polluting in general since they do give out more ppm's but given that they use less fuel and oil i assume that ove the year it would work out greener overall. I think :-\
[/quote]
One reason that your V8 Suburban, that gets 12 mpg, TESTS out cleaner than your scooter is because they inject air into the exhaust to aid in after-combustion burning of hydrocarbons and to dilute the discharge so it looks like it is cleaner in exhaust gas analysis. Put an air pump on your scooter to blow air into the exhaust port and mount a Cat then test.
Counter intuitive or not, given the choice of being locked in a garage with a running scooter or a running Suburban for 20 minutes..........
EVEN with scoots and bikes being less clean, they still make up about 2% of the measurable, not calculated, pollutants in the USA.
Taiwan has scooter lanes because they would rather trade the less efficient combustion by-products from 50cc scooters for the massive pollutants, congestion, grid lock and landfill gorging from cars and trucks also carrying one person.
My Stella scooter is a 150cc 2T that is EPA approved and there are new DIRECT GAS INJECTION systems that make 2T engines EPA compliant. Austria has recently approved a 2T outboard for use in their pristine alpine lakes.
It is curious that a post on an opinion about warming up an engine gets hijacked by environmentalism.
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Man, 12mpg!!! Glad i live in Europe where most cars do at least 40-50mpg otherwise i could never afford to fill my tank.
I didnt buy my scoot for any other reason than it was fun to ride and it gets me to work for around 1/5 of the cost of running my car every day, if it helps the enviroment thats good too but its not a factor on what i ride. For me its more about getting a cheap thrill and not being stuck in traffic in a metal box on a sunny day.
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Most cars and trucks in Europe, or the US, can't tow 12,000 Lbs either.
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"Be interesting to see if anyone did an experiment on how much better or worse overall for the enviroment running a modern scoot everyday compares to a modern car. Sombody must have looked at the data for that?"
Yeah! That's what got me thinking about warming up scoots, and warming engines in general. The whole consensus seem to be : warm engines run better than cold engines. Then I started thinking about why, and that lead to incomplete combustion or wasted fuel, and that lead to if the whole world drove scooters... We would all choke to death!.
Funny how things happen! Cool thread.
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If you look at Asian countries, even the modern ones, where scooter use is far more popular than cars, they all suffer from smog and polution in the air much more than in the West. Granted in some areas they run their old scoots till they die but even the new modern asiian countries where they have cheap new chinese scoots its pretty bad.
I would not say that pollution in African and Asian countries is present because of cheap Chinese scooters, but lack of any industrial emission standards.
I have been to many countries where they do not drive scooters, yet the pollution is nothing short of incredible.
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Axy, all i know is that scooters seem to be the main motorised form of transport in China for example, where during the Olympics recently they had to basically ban all transport from the roads several days a week in order to fall within the accepted smog levels for the Olympic committe standards. That would lead me to the conclusion that most of the pollution came from cars, trucks, buses, bikes and scoots, bit i could be wrong.
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Man, 12mpg!!! Glad i live in Europe where most cars do at least 40-50mpg otherwise i could never afford to fill my tank.
I didnt buy my scoot for any other reason than it was fun to ride and it gets me to work for around 1/5 of the cost of running my car every day,
Well, I use my scooter also as a daily commuting tool, but I am not sure that driving scooters is that cheap. It all depends on which scooter you drive and to which car you compare it. The bigger the scooter, the worse off you are, I think that the best ratio is with 125 cc 4 stroke scooters.
For example, I have 110 hp gasoline powered car that consumes <7.5 l/100 km if driven nicely. My 250 cc scooter consumes 5 l/100 km. Insurance costs less, but it does not cost much if you drive a small car either. Service intervals are so short that if you go by the book, you will get screwed royally - every 3000 kms. Many people commuting from suburban areas cover 80-100 kms in a day (in Italian cities, for example), and the cost would pile up.
Of you compare very tiny new car with 500 cc scooter, I would say that TCO of a small car could easily be lower than TCO of 500 cc scooter, if covered distance is significant (25.000+ kms per year). After 60-70.000 kms you can scrap most scoots or invest heavily in big time maintenance, and car is only in 1/3-1/2 of its life span.
I will not enter into small diesel car discussion - they could consume less than 250 cc scoot.
I always saw scoots as very convenient commuters, but I do not think they are extremely cheap - unless they are 125cc with low initial purchase cost.
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I run my acoot most days to work, it costs me around £5-£6/week on fuel but if i run my Mazda turbo diesel hatchback it costs me £25/wk, and thats just on fuel alone. Factor in Insurance, taxes, tyres, servicing and parts and i estimate that over the year i save a minimum of £1000, easily. I only run a 50cc Agility tho.
Just read this arcticle, compares car use to scooter, pretty interesting. http://scooterunderground.ca/knowledge/ScooterPollution.htm (http://scooterunderground.ca/knowledge/ScooterPollution.htm)
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Axy, all i know is that scooters seem to be the main motorised form of transport in China for example, where during the Olympics recently they had to basically ban all transport from the roads several days a week in order to fall within the accepted smog levels for the Olympic committe standards. That would lead me to the conclusion that most of the pollution came from cars, trucks, buses, bikes and scoots, bit i could be wrong.
Coal is main energy source in China (70%), and we are not talking here about coal used in German thermoelectric plants with closed zero emission systems, but open ones, with emission directly into atmosphere. They have insignificant hydroelectric sources and they have just started developing 30+ nuclear powerplants (now, THIS is going to be fun!)
Surprisingly, the biggest source of pollution in China is not traffic or industry but - farming!
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I run my acoot most days to work, it costs me around £5-£6/week on fuel but if i run my Mazda turbo diesel hatchback it costs me £25/wk, and thats just on fuel alone. Factor in Insurance, taxes, tyres, servicing and parts and i estimate that over the year i save a minimum of £1000, easily. I only run a 50cc Agility tho.
Just read this arcticle, compares car use to scooter, pretty interesting. http://scooterunderground.ca/knowledge/ScooterPollution.htm (http://scooterunderground.ca/knowledge/ScooterPollution.htm)
Yes, I believe you have calculated that correctly. If your choice of vehicles was different, it could easily be vice versa.
For example, if you drove 500 cc scoot vs. small turbo diesel car (entry level of any European manufacturer), I think scoot would lose the game...
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There are maximum emission limits (like "Euro X") and (usual much lower) individual emissions (from EU type approval, i.e. published by www.kba.de (http://www.kba.de)). 2 examples from our KBA:
Piaggio MP3 LT500 (AIQ): CO 0.333g/km, HC 0.009g/km, NOx 0.030g/km
Toyota Prius 2 (ACI): CO 0.180g/km, HC 0.020g/km, NOx 0.010g/km
There is not very much difference between a modern (fuel injected) scooter and a modern hybrid car. Of course the Prius is heavier and can carry more, it has the far superior technology. But is it better for the environment?
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I drive a Prius and ride an '06 People 250. The Prius has very tight emmissions controls and even at cold start smells much cleaner than the People. The People has a carburator and no catalyzer. I've been getting about 55 MPG with both vehicles when driven at the same rate. The Prius emmissions are much lower than the People's.
The maintenance on the People is MUCH higher and more expensive than the Prius. So much so that I do it myself to make the price more palatable. All this said, I love the scoot' and know that it is much cleaner than a large percentage of the vehicles on the road here in the States, primarily because of the high percentage of SUV's and pick ups.
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Which do you think pumps more air through it, a 50cc scooter cruising at 50mph or a 4 cylinder car cruising at 50mph? I'll bet the scooter is pumping more air.
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Which do you think pumps more air through it, a 50cc scooter cruising at 50mph or a 4 cylinder car cruising at 50mph? I'll bet the scooter is pumping more air.
Although there is no street legal 50cc scooter which can cruise at 50mph, I bet against.
When I cruise with my wifes MP3 LT250 between the trucks on the Autobahn, I need 3-3.5 litre/100km (78-67mpg). Our small car needs at minimum 5-5.5 litre (47-43mpg). As both are fuel injected, running with electronical comtrolled lambda=1, the scooter needs less air.
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Which do you think pumps more air through it, a 50cc scooter cruising at 50mph or a 4 cylinder car cruising at 50mph? I'll bet the scooter is pumping more air.
Let's compare 50 cc scooter cruising at 40 mph (50 mph stock would be impossible except for Italian 50 cc 2 stroke scoots w. 5.5 hp engines) and 4 cyl car at 40 mph.
Scooter would consume around 2-3 l/100 km. Car would consume around 5-6 l/100 km. Car would require roughly twice more air.
However, try comparing efficiency per hp: 4-5hp vs. 60-120 hp. Suddenly, it seems that car consumes 7-15 times LESS air per hp.
Or, if you go by weight, 100 kg vs 1200 kg kerb weight, car consumes 6 times LESS air than scoot based on carried weight.
Etc.
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Now my friggin' head hurts.
Operating rpms factor in as well. The whole carbon footprint track is a huge factor. Fuel quality plays a role, as well as oil used for that matter.
HUGE topic!
So to answer the question of warm up... Burn the scoot, and get a skateboard (made of dirt)! Or walk...
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Where did air pumping come from?
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so what is it yes or no. to worming up in the cold.Does anyone realy know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I thing this is the longest post on the fourm.
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..i pick things up and put them down...
..i pick things up and put them down...
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Whatever blows your skirt up , lol .
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Warm it up!
my 2 bits!
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I like turtles :)
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What a bunch of clowns... Turtles huh?
Killer Tortoise on etv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ge289MlHtg#)
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Was thinking more like this clip, only in a Glasgow accent, imagine groundskeeper willie from the simpsons saying it. http://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y (http://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y)
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I like turtles :)
I like rabbits
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Where did air pumping come from?
Simple, engines are essentially air pumps. An air compressor has a cylinder and piston just like a gasoline engine. So, the more air the engine pumps the more exhaust by volume exits the exhaust. More exhaust volume = more emissions.
Next
Although there is no street legal 50cc scooter which can cruise at 50mph, I bet against.
When I cruise with my wifes MP3 LT250 between the trucks on the Autobahn, I need 3-3.5 litre/100km (78-67mpg). Our small car needs at minimum 5-5.5 litre (47-43mpg). As both are fuel injected, running with electronical comtrolled lambda=1, the scooter needs less air.
Given a light enough scooter and light rider it's possible. Mine did 45mph indicated(probably closer to 41-42) with my fat ass on it while it was street legal. Anyway it's besides the point. So we'll go with axy's 40mph for arguments sake.
Next
so what is it yes or no. to worming up in the cold.Does anyone realy know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I thing this is the longest post on the fourm.
Yes, yes yes yes yes. Or no. Do whatever you want.
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Now my friggin' head hurts.
Operating rpms factor in as well. The whole carbon footprint track is a huge factor. Fuel quality plays a role, as well as oil used for that matter.
HUGE topic!
So to answer the question of warm up... Burn the scoot, and get a skateboard (made of dirt)! Or walk...
"Operating rpms"
That was my major thought. A 50cc scooter will cruise at what 7-8000 rpms at true 40mph? Don't jump on me about that one damn it I'm asking. Where a car will cruise between 1500-2000 rpms(depending on make and model)
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Simple, engines are essentially air pumps. An air compressor has a cylinder and piston just like a gasoline engine. So, the more air the engine pumps the more exhaust by volume exits the exhaust. More exhaust volume = more emissions.
AIR PUMPS
Internal combustion or external combustion or compressed air. They all do the same work.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/preview-concept/4217016 (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/preview-concept/4217016)
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Zombie Girl Likes Turtles!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHqAmCSFwA#ws)
It's gone pandemic
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"Operating rpms"
That was my major thought. A 50cc scooter will cruise at what 7-8000 rpms at true 40mph? Don't jump on me about that one damn it I'm asking. Where a car will cruise between 1500-2000 rpms(depending on make and model)
I would call 1500-2000 rpm "choking the engine", not cruising, for gasoline powered engines.
Most 4-cyl cars cruise (say, 65-70 mph) in top gear at around 3500-4000 rpm.
Even for modern diesel engines it would hardly be possible to cruise comfortably at 1500-2000 rpm because of turbo charger power consumption at such low revs.
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bs
An automatic is designed not to choke the engine. So at 40mph a 4 cylinder car will shift to overdrive and ride at 2000 rpm.
You want I should prove you wrong?
Our lovely torquey V8s in American trucks will cruise at 70mph hardly breaking 2000 rpms. You wouldn't know anything about that axy.
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Automatics are for ladies, old men, and the disabled. :D
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Automatics are for ladies, old men, and the disabled. :D
Ok, I'm an old men. My scooter has automatic.
Some facts:
Mercedes 190E (naturally aspirated R4 2 litre otto) with automatic shifts down to 1200rpm (idling at 750). But rather 40kph than 40mph.
With a V8 down to 900 idling at 600.
Xciting 500 carb is idling at 1200-1400, centrifugal clutch engage between 2000-2500 and happily cruising at >=2500 (i.e. in a 30kph speed restriction zone).
A turbo charger doesn't need additional power, its all in the exhaust gas. But a supercharger would need.
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Automatics are for ladies, old men, and the disabled. :D
I kinda agree. When it comes to everyday driving or towing though, automatics are the way to go. If you've ever been in very slow moving heavy traffic with a heavy clutch you know what I'm talking about. No good.
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bs
An automatic is designed not to choke the engine. So at 40mph a 4 cylinder car will shift to overdrive and ride at 2000 rpm.
You want I should prove you wrong?
Our lovely torquey V8s in American trucks will cruise at 70mph hardly breaking 2000 rpms. You wouldn't know anything about that axy.
This is why I mentioned 4-cyl gasoline engine coupled with manual gearbox, prevalent in modern cars, not 12 liter V12 constructed in 1950 with compression ratio 1:6.
I have 1400 cc 109 hp car, gasoline powered, and in 5th gear around 70 mph it`s hovering around 4000 rpm.
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A turbo charger doesn't need additional power, its all in the exhaust gas. But a supercharger would need.
Try driving any small, and even Audi`s/VW`s 1.9 TDi around 2000 rpm and see the turbo lag between 1500-2500 rpm yourself...
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your car sucks
I'm talking about a modern day Ford 302ci(thats 5.0L axy) bone stock will cruise 70 mph at just above 2000 rpm.
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Try driving any small, and even Audi`s/VW`s 1.9 TDi around 2000 rpm and see the turbo lag between 1500-2500 rpm yourself...
Then it behaves just like a naturally aspirated engine. I had an Opel Astra 1.7 DTI before, with peak torque from 1800 to 3000rpm. It had no punch below 1500 but still no problems down to 1000.
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your car sucks
I'm talking about a modern day Ford 302ci(thats 5.0L axy) bone stock will cruise 70 mph at just above 2000 rpm.
What modern day Ford 302ci? 302 engine was in production between 1961 and 2001. If you use some argument, you should at least make sure it is valid.
Ship diesel engines spin at 100-300 rpm, are we supposed to take that as an argument?
600 cc sports bikes go up to 14.000 rpm, are we supposed to evaluate their cruising speed?
It is YOU who mentioned cars` cruising speed, not me, and now you pull out antiquated 5L truck engines?
Do some learning and come back with real arguments next time.
Once again: 4-6 cyl gasoline cars will cruise at 70 mph between 3500 and 4000 rpm, depending on number of gears (5 or 6). Diesel cars will cruise much lower, between 2500 and 2800 rpm.
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Then it behaves just like a naturally aspirated engine. I had an Opel Astra 1.7 DTI before, with peak torque from 1800 to 3000rpm. It had no punch below 1500 but still no problems down to 1000.
Unfortunately, I drive often company cars that are usually 1.3, 1.4 turbo diesel pool cars (Corsa, Fiesta, C3, you name the crap, I drove it...) and for longer trips things like Octavia, A3, A4, Golf, Vectra etc. For example, I`ve had brand new A3 1.9 TDi/130 hp STALL on me when I was driving slowly in 1st gear and then turned on air con. I guess it did not have enough power both for turbo and air con and it simply shut off.
It is interesting that I have Kia Pro Ceed 1.4/109 hp with VVT and I can tell you that down to 1000 rpm it is much smoother than most turbo diesels, while diesels are touted as having high torque on lowe revs etc. Of course, elasticity in gears is better for turbo diesels...
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You really are dumb :D.
They're definitely using 302s again dumb ass
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Where do you get your information? Wikipedia? I think you're the one that needs to do some learning, dick lesasso.
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Kiss your mommy (aka girlfriend) with that mouth, De'wayne.
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I guess it did not have enough power both for turbo and air con and it simply shut off.
The Astra automatically turned off the A/C when riding at WOT and on the other extreme increased idle speed.
It is interesting that I have Kia Pro Ceed 1.4/109 hp with VVT and I can tell you that down to 1000 rpm it is much smoother than most turbo diesels
Of course, a Diesel engine has a high compression and is running hard. It took some time to make them smooth enough for Porsche or Mercedes S. Still Rolls Royce cars don't use them. ;)
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Can't argue with that can you :D
Guess what everybody, axy doesn't know everything. Big surprise!
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The Astra automatically turned off the A/C when riding at WOT and on the other extreme increased idle speed.Of course, a Diesel engine has a high compression and is running hard. It took some time to make them smooth enough for Porsche or Mercedes S. Still Rolls Royce cars don't use them. ;)
I can`t stress enough how much I hate diesel cars. ;D ;D :D
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Sit on it, Start it, Ride off. If the engine is obviously running cold then I try to keep the throttle where it seems to be running the smoothest.
I don't like idling to warm up an engine.
I start and go. If it's running without strange noises, the oil is getting around, and that's all you need. Actually, I start it before I put on my helmet, then go.
Richard L.
My People S 125 has an automatic choke so I just get on her and go.
I am with ts1.
"Warming up" engine of a stationary vehicle is waste of time, money and energy (literally).
That's the best you can do for the engine - warming up with medium load.
Idling is useless, wasted fuel and wasted waering and pollution.
All wrong the oil in your engine needs to warm up if you dont warm it up it is not doing its job and will cause damage over time the ideal operating temp is 80 degree c. And as for it been a wast of fuel i have £2 of fuel in my tank and have been starting my bike once a week for half a hour to 45 mins for the last 6 month and and would guess it used 50 pence worth of fuel
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All wrong the oil in your engine needs to warm up if you dont warm it up it is not doing its job and will cause damage over time
Actually, what you just said is completely incorrect.
Multigrade oils "do their job" just the same at the lower and upper temperature extreme.
For example, 10W-40 usually used in Kymco "does the job" equally at -20 C and +100 C
Did you read this whole thread? I am asking because I already wrote this in the thread.
So, enough with fairy tales.
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All wrong the oil in your engine needs to warm up
And how do you warm up the engine? My scoot has no park heating.
If I have to drive and turn the engine, I expect some benefit from the unavoidable fuel consumption and wear.
Don't think that you have no wear during idling!
Too, the oil pump usually rotates with the engine and may not provide enough oil pressure during idling.
The Mercedes car has an oil pressure indicator and alert. My scoot hasn't.
I go with the manufacturers and engineers advice and 150 years experience (in Germany).
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More RPMs = More wear
You guys act like idling these things for 5 minutes uses so much fuel
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Well , this dead horse has certainly been beaten to a pulp . I'll be glad to hear the last word on this........ even if it is from Crotia .
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More RPMs = More wear
More rpm = more oil pressure = +/- ? wear ;)
But anyway: Idling = useless wear.
You guys act like idling these things for 5 minutes uses so much fuel
Not only the fuel (although $2 / litre - not gallon! - is common in Europe), but angry neighbours and officers (and the fine equates to about a tank content).
Another long term concern is the our basic human right for clean air.
Our cities must monitor the pollution and react if the emission is too high. (US should know about claims exceeding the budget of a city.)
So our local governments bann "dirty" vehicles (which don't comply with the next-to-last emission standard) from entering the town or even generally prohibit every 2 stroke vehicle.
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..I warm mine up simply because i like to make sure the autobystarter has shut off before i take off down the road...
..why?..because i want to!
..why shouldn't I?..i've read nothing here that says i shouldn't...
..is it hurting my scoot?..well, hell no..no more than i hurt it every day on my 35 mile WOT commute to work and back..
peace
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Im with Wordslinger, my and it seems most if not all Agilitys dont run well if the autochoke is still on when you begin riding, but other scoots may be different. I know on Vespas with the manual choke i get on and just ride, pushing the choke in a little as it warms more. Each to his own, just do what works for your own scooter, or car.
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Me to im with word I well always worm my scoot.why its just comon sense.
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Automatics are for ladies, old men, and the disabled. :D
Now you done it! Run Forest run!
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Zombie attack on photographer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQUZegFRnGE#ws)
Forgot...
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If your oil pressure is not sufficient at idle then yes you have more to worry about than warming up your scooter. Apparently it's illegal and offensive to warm up your scooter in some parts of Europe. Things are very different here.
Fines for warming an engine up :D
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If your oil pressure is not sufficient at idle then yes you have more to worry about than warming up your scooter
..preach that sh** bro!!
;)
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I think this Vid will help.
Take the IQ test - Are you a logical thinker? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFM2QsQb6nA#)
Warm it up!
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http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=bcfea0fd476a8a822a6a6ba786ff02e1&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kymcoforum.com%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D5839.new%23new&v=1&libid=1330552050146&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1J6vRfWaYIY&title=Kymco%20Factory%20in%20Tiawan&txt=A%20quick%20visit%20to%20the%20Kymco%20Factory%20in%20Taiwan&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13305522807591 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=bcfea0fd476a8a822a6a6ba786ff02e1&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kymcoforum.com%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D5839.new%23new&v=1&libid=1330552050146&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1J6vRfWaYIY&title=Kymco%20Factory%20in%20Tiawan&txt=A%20quick%20visit%20to%20the%20Kymco%20Factory%20in%20Taiwan&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13305522807591)
Peters just caught this. Watch what Kymco does
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If your oil pressure is not sufficient at idle then yes you have more to worry about than warming up your scooter. Apparently it's illegal and offensive to warm up your scooter in some parts of Europe. Things are very different here.
Fines for warming an engine up :D
Never laugh at other countries' laws. For most of us from Europe, the level of police oppression in USA is nothing short of laughable. It is probably difficult for you to understand that when we are stopped, we exit the car and talk to the officer like two human beings, show them license and registration etc. There is no "keep your hands on the wheel, do not exit, or I will tase you". So, fines for warming an engine up are less of an issue compared to this.
I hope that you know what Kyoto protocol is. It is strange that 191 world countries have ratified it and USA did not, practically the only country in the world that fails to take care of global warming issues on an organized level. This is why practically all countries of the world except USA are taking care of pollutant emission and unnecessary engine warm up is just one of the things to be considered. There are 256 million vehicles in USA and 5 minute warm up that is not needed adds up easily to millions of gallons of wasted fuel and many cubic kilometers of exhaust fumes that do not serve any purpose. Not only US import 2/3rds of the oil it uses, but it is also relying on wars across the globe to support its oil "addiction". If nothing else, rational beings would take this into consideration when they think about their consumption habits.
I hope that you are able to comprehend at least partially what I am trying to explain here.
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From MY point of view the Kyoto Pro. is there to make the REST of the world use less so WE can have more! Sound about right?
I'm not trying to inflame the issue. It's just the ONLY reason that makes sense. (and I do NOT agree w/ this perspective)
Jus' Sayin'
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Oh yeah... Running from cops is a sport here. (Kinda like chasing a wheel of cheese down a steep hill.) Our cops just got tired of loosing.
Police Brutality In America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ9Wr8na6js#)
I'll go ON RECORD... f***in@ HATE COPS!
I'll bet Our poster will NEVER ask another question here tho...
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Never laugh at other countries' laws. For most of us from Europe, the level of police oppression in USA is nothing short of laughable. It is probably difficult for you to understand that when we are stopped, we exit the car and talk to the officer like two human beings, show them license and registration etc. There is no "keep your hands on the wheel, do not exit, or I will tase you". So, fines for warming an engine up are less of an issue compared to this.
I hope that you are able to comprehend at least partially what I am trying to explain here.
I'll laugh at whatever I want.
What do you know about being pulled over in the US? Our police officers have better things to worry about than you "wasting" <25 cents worth of gasoline. That's why it's a joke. Once again I laugh at the concept of getting a ticket for idling my scooter in my driveway. Hahaa :D
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I'll laugh at whatever I want.
What do you know about being pulled over in the US? Our police officers have better things to worry about than you "wasting" <25 cents worth of gasoline. That's why it's a joke. Once again I laugh at the concept of getting a ticket for idling my scooter in my driveway. Hahaa :D
lol I guess I would see that only if you took your muffler off and your geting a ticket for makeing to much noise.
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Locked in Car. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFfzVQvmO5M#)
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In the USA many cars are outfitted with remote control starters so the owners can start the car from the comfort of their homes or offices and either run the heater or air conditioner so they will be comfortable when they first enter the car . How about them apples .
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Heated and air conditioned seats too! Umm... delightful ;D
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I've installed dozens of remote starters on customers yachts. They will call from the car on the way to the marina, and let the boat run (sometimes for hours) to get the air conditioning running.
I show up on my zx to do these installs!
It's either the customer or me... One of us is really F'd up.
Ever paid $3,000.00 to fill your tank? For a weekend cruise? In Axy's country that 3g's buys alot of shiny things, and beads... No wonder he's pissed!
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In Axy's country that 3g's buys alot of shiny things, and beads... No wonder he's pissed!
Beads? For axy's girlfriend or for axy? :D
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Let's ask! AXY!!!!!!!!
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I'll laugh at whatever I want.
What do you know about being pulled over in the US? Our police officers have better things to worry about than you "wasting" <25 cents worth of gasoline. That's why it's a joke. Once again I laugh at the concept of getting a ticket for idling my scooter in my driveway. Hahaa :D
Indeed. They do have better things to worry about: http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/alabama (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/alabama)
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I've installed dozens of remote starters on customers yachts. They will call from the car on the way to the marina, and let the boat run (sometimes for hours) to get the air conditioning running.
I show up on my zx to do these installs!
It's either the customer or me... One of us is really F'd up.
Ever paid $3,000.00 to fill your tank? For a weekend cruise? In Axy's country that 3g's buys alot of shiny things, and beads... No wonder he's pissed!
Actually, never had slaves or segregation here, so there was no need to lure them with shiny beads. Not a part of our cultural heritage, sorry.
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"Actually, never had slaves or segregation here"
WHAT? How did your country get anything done? Tall buildings, Roads, Crops! Oh yeah! my bad...Tree dweller.
Don't mess w/ me on this one. I'll set my little Irish house monkey loose... Mean lil' bastards the Irish! Remind me of N..ever mind.
I'm sorry Axy. I hope you don't take offense. I know thumbs are new to you so I'm not really too worried.
Ok for real. Axy is likely one of the most intelligent "gentleman" I've come across on ANY forum. Just likes the opposite point of view is all. RESPECT!
10 pages on a warm up. WTF is next? Where did the thread poster go?
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"Actually, never had slaves or segregation here"
WHAT? How did your country get anything done? Tall buildings, Roads, Crops! Oh yeah! my bad...Tree dweller.
Don't mess w/ me on this one. I'll set my little Irish house monkey loose... Mean lil' bastards the Irish! Remind me of N..ever mind.
I'm sorry Axy. I hope you don't take offense. I know thumbs are new to you so I'm not really too worried.
Ok for real. Axy is likely one of the most intelligent "gentleman" I've come across on ANY forum. Just likes the opposite point of view is all. RESPECT!
10 pages on a warm up. WTF is next? Where did the thread poster go?
Sometimes, forums are s complete waste of time and this thread is a living proof.
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Well , this dead horse has certainly been beaten to a pulp . I'll be glad to hear the last word on this........ even if it is from Crotia .
Who will get the last word ? Wait for it........................
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The man was in no shape to drive, so he wisely left his scooter parked and walked home. As he was walking unsteadily along, he was stopped by a policeman.
"What are you doing out here at 2 A.M.?" said the officer.
"I'm going to a lecture." the man said.
"And who is going to give a lecture at this hour?" the cop asked.
"My wife." said the man.
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