KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: zombie on February 11, 2012, 10:44:59 PM
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I took this pict. just for the forum. It is of a fuel proof carburetor coupler. The fella's scoot has been droping off in both top sprrd, and low end torque. Local dealer cleaned the carb. / installed a new fuel filter / new spark plug, and after a test ride told MY new customer he needed a new cylinder/piston/rings. Charged him $187.63, and estimated 375-400.00 to replace the top end for him.
On his way home I saw him at the gas station, and volunteered to "take a look". I did not even have to remove the carb. to feel the softness in the coupler. 15 minuets later he was running. Point is ETHANOL should be banned, and consumers refunded for all the MILLIONS of $'s in damages to OUR vehicles.
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http://www.dupontelastomers.com/crg/tlargiguide.asp (http://www.dupontelastomers.com/crg/tlargiguide.asp)
Select gasoline from the menu on the left and then select ethyl alcohol.
Much more rubber compounds are completely incompatible with ethyl alcohol and more of them show higher lever of incompatibility than rubber/gasoline combination.
I think that we should dispel myths on this forum.
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axy: +1
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Wow!!! Felt I had to actually post these tables...
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Ok Here we go! If you ask the tobacco company if smoking is harmful they will refer you to their chart too. Every maker of fuel proof rubber COMPOUNDS are using Nitrile as the stabilizer. Ethanol dissolves the polymeric chain that binds nitrile to rubber. It is one thing to spout off on the forum cause someone dis agrees w/ you, but another to custom pick your evidence. I know you are a smart guy, but I work w/ these products EVERY DAY. All of the marine manufactures are producing fuel line that have a plastic liner that is impervious to ethanol. I just showed you a photo of what it does, or was that from a 50cc scoot so highly modified it sucked the inside of the coupler out. Don't ask the Vatican if molesting exists in parishes. Ask the parents of the children. Don't ask Dupont if ethanol sucks. Ask a mechanic. Oh wait... Does your company have something to do w/ ethanol Manuf./supply? I'm sure not trying to offend but am DAMN pissed about the sh** we as consumers are forced to swallow. Ps. Look at Hilary Clinton... N.Y. Senate? And whats that job she has now? Who the F' is she by the way...
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One pack of Menthol cigarettes has more anti oxidants than (1) apple. True or false? Well then they MUST be good too.
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One pack of Menthol cigarettes has more anti oxidants than (1) apple. True or false? Well then they MUST be good too.
And the reason all my seals, etc. are okay after five years of indiscriminate fuel usage is... what?
.
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They use Unicorn pee pee in the fuel where you live. I live in Florida where the ethanol levels are 10% year round. The marinas here were forced into getting non E fuel do to "chronic deterioration" of fuel system components. This is due to the long term "stationary" exposer. To aggravate that factor add almost constant 3/4-wot operation of marine engines. These two extremes combine to create an environment that amplifies the effect of ethanol. It is the same for any high out put engine. The required quality of fuel is greater than the lower powered counterparts that CAN run on Unicorn piss! Whether it affects you or not is a different issue... Same goes for Global Warming. I see it every day. I just showed you picts. I will send you the results of a lab test if you like, (your paypal tho) It don't really matter to me cause SEA FOAM has made me ~IMPERVIOUSSSSSSS~
Mass Iridium toALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Lone Ranger Opening Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCO6smQrjJ8#)
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Every fuel is potentially aggressive to some materials.
And there have always been material failures due to long exposition under severe conditions.
It's the manucfacturers responsibility to provide vehicles which can run on legal fuel.
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You seem to be hurt because science says different than your personal, subjective opinion.
I cannot change your opinion, it would be futile, you are free to believe anything you choose to, including pink unicorns, Buddha and Evil Ethanol.
However, just to add to this discussion if you did not understand already, what you call "rubber" can actually be hundreds if not thousands of different chemical compounds with different properties and resistance to influence of other compound. Some might be completely unaffected, while some might be incompatible with ethanol, while generally, gasoline is more corrosive to "rubber like" compounds than ethanol. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.
Vehicle tire rubber for example deteriorates exposed to oxygen in air so that it has to be discarded after 60 months because it dangerously changes its properties. Claiming that rubber like compounds used in and around vehicle engine, exposed daily to extreme engine temperature, various elements like fuel, oil, dust, water and dirt, change of external temperature from -20 to +60 in the summer - change their properties ONLY because of ethanol in fuel (5-15 % of total fuel volume) is twisting the facts at best, or being a poor analyst of underlying causes of issues.
I have no better source than sources based on real empirical data and science.
So, you are left to yourself to believe what you want.
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(http://)
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I 100% agree w/ you Axy. Different compounds react differently. I have a set of Kenda tires that swelled like balloons when exposed to raw fuel. (spilled gas). Fuel system compounds are different. They are made to tolerate petroleum products. Ethanol is not a petroleum product. If you like facts chew on these...
http://www.bertram31.com/bb/bbs.cgi?noframes;read=78171 (http://www.bertram31.com/bb/bbs.cgi?noframes;read=78171)
http://uscgaux-northlake.com/archives/1542 (http://uscgaux-northlake.com/archives/1542)
http://www.espbotanicals.com/environmentalpoison/2011/09/26/nj-doh-senior-svcs-report-on-2-butoxy-ethanol-in-corexit/ (http://www.espbotanicals.com/environmentalpoison/2011/09/26/nj-doh-senior-svcs-report-on-2-butoxy-ethanol-in-corexit/)
http://www.ourbetternature.org/ethanol.htm (http://www.ourbetternature.org/ethanol.htm)
Just a few. By the way... WAKE UP! I don't care what you think about this problem as it has no effect on you but others need to know what is happening to their beloved engines. By the way... Are you suggesting that the world is now plagued w/ "weak rubber"? Self dissolving aluminum? Oh the humanity... When will it stop. Simply google ethanol problems.
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I should state that I have no issues w/ any other opinion or member of this forum. We all exist for a reason, and or opinions are an important tool for learning. I work w/ the effects of fuels all day every day. This alone qualifies me to report on the ethanol issue.I would not ask an accountant how to launch/build a rocket any more than I would ask a short order cook for a brain transplant! I am a mechanic/boat builder. This is what I do.
Greatest Line Ever Against Democrats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkmS6JrWSPU#)
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Fuel system compounds are different. They are made to tolerate petroleum products. Ethanol is not a petroleum product.
There may be fuel systems which are not compatible, esp. if the vehicle isn't used for months and years without any maintenance and precautions.
But for example BMW motorcycle claims, that every of their motorcycles is E10 compatible (with correct octane rating), no matter how old. Do you work on their motorcycles and know they are wrong?
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I should state that I have no issues w/ any other opinion or member of this forum. We all exist for a reason, and or opinions are an important tool for learning. I work w/ the effects of fuels all day every day. This alone qualifies me to report on the ethanol.
It does not, because you are not dealing with ethanol under controlled laboratory conditions that would require an experimental and control group, and statistically significant sample.
You are dealing with gasoline, which is a mixture of 500 different hydrocarbons, each of them exerting specific influence on another compound ("rubber")
Then, you are dealing with environment that has very high temperature.
Then, environment that changes temperature quickly within set extremes (from -20 to 150 C in a matter of minutes)
Then, you are dealing with oxygen infusion.
Then, you are dealing with compound whose chemical composition you do not know.
Then, you are dealing with "dirt".
Then, you are dealing with mechanical damage "rubber" parts are typically exposed to (they are "bolted" on metal and usually stretched, or connect heterogeneous materials).
The fact that you are dealing with engines does not make you a specialist in organic chemistry or a scientist.
Somebody who is dealing with servers daily is not a computer programmer.
Surgeon is not a God.
My cats are carnivores but they are not butchers.
etc.
The key questions here is why are you being stubborn about this topic despite presented facts (and not subjective opinions)?
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If I need advice on repairing an engine due to ethanol damage I'll ask the scientist that formulated the fuel. Im sure he to will tell me there is no trouble at all as he did not design it to cause problems. Enough of this... Did you even read the links I posted? FACT: You are sucking wind cause you don't like my style. Too bad. I LUV you Bro! Ps The world is now round due to Columbus. Before that it was a flat plane floating in a giant bowl of ethanol. Are you coming over for dinner tonight? I'm making Hagas, and spirits... aka Ethanol. Love you Axy!
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Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada @ http://pure-gas.org/ (http://pure-gas.org/) .
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There may be fuel systems which are not compatible, esp. if the vehicle isn't used for months and years without any maintenance and precautions.
But for example BMW motorcycle claims, that every of their motorcycles is E10 compatible (with correct octane rating), no matter how old. Do you work on their motorcycles and know they are wrong?
Well yes I do work on them. They have taken steps to prevent ethanol damage. Same goes for Yamaha/Mercury Marine/General motors, and many others. Kymco has NOT prepared. Take any rubber fuel system component (from your scoot), and soak it for 48hrs in a container of fuel. It will swell. This is caused by the eth. attacking the bond between natural rubber, and Nitrile (fuel proof component added to stabilize rubber). Remove the part, and after another 48hrs the swelling will subside as the eth. evaporates. Prove it to your self, not me.
Enough of this as I have to go let some excess freon loose. It makes Florida warmer in the winter
Maybe a video will help! (you know pictures)
Ethanol fuel problems in small engines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOWYSIl3DsU#noexternalembed-ws)
E10 & Phase Separation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO3x5o0W7-M#)
So far I have posted 6 links to Eth problems. Got any more charts?
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It has been enough of futile attempts of free education from my side.
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Did you check the Links? Any opinion on them? Now I'm curious!
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Ill second that .
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On further researching this issue I came across a paper written by The U.S. DOT/Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and the Council for Fossil Fuel Research. To paraphrase they concluded that "Ethanol is NOT corrosive to either aluminum or Fuel proof rubber compounds. The reported problems are due to Witches." (sinister forces). I hope my "hype" or mis information has not caused any irrevocable harm, and I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience! Glad thats over. NOW how do you all feel about Ritalin?
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Mass ritalin for everybody !
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This was an interesting discussion. The differences in opinions have been stated and hopefully there is no remaining anger. In my area the pumps all say 10% ethanol. So, as one who is not a mechanic or a chemist the question that interests me is, does Sea Foam prevent the problem?
Thank You,
Richard L.
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My scientist buddies always told me, "The plural of anecdote is not data." I tend to go with can be proven, then replicated.
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Seafoam does , among other things , counteract the effects of ethanol . Im sure the "flat-earthers" will say balderdash to that also . Good luck .
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YES. As does StarTron. And they both come in flavors even children love... No worries about residual anger. I love my Bro's here. F' the Hooidie tooidies tho... I'm not much for hand warmers as a "mod". Sorry Axy!
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/)
http://www.seafoamsales.com/ (http://www.seafoamsales.com/)
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Well, since everything posted on the internet is equally valid (http://www.timecube.com/)...
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Ok Jpres. I got thru about 1/3rd of the cube link. What the F' is wrong w/ you Bro? I mean this is all good! I find myself saying this more, and more... I just DON'T Get it. Go on ... Open door. Who's your buddy~gucci gucci gucci!
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Well yes I do work on them.
My brother too, already for some decades (BMW engineer).
Surely you have the customer complaints at your hand, which where lost during transmission to Germany. Could you please give some exact and serious details?
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YES. As does StarTron. And they both come in flavors even children love... No worries about residual anger. I love my Bro's here. F' the Hooidie tooidies tho... I'm not much for hand warmers as a "mod". Sorry Axy!
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/)
http://www.seafoamsales.com/ (http://www.seafoamsales.com/)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/medium/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png)
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Rocket J. Squirrel: And now, here to tell you everything about anything is Mr. Know-It-All.
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Place #8 is empty, and we have got ourselves a winner here!
http://lordwhatsmymotivation.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/top-20-most-pathetic-sidekicks-of-all-time/ (http://lordwhatsmymotivation.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/top-20-most-pathetic-sidekicks-of-all-time/)
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MMD: Smartest Man Alive...? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opq_KmKxUiA#)
Piss off you buggers! Jealousseee!
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Well my Cub Cadet lawn tractor just turned 16 years old and has had 10% ethanol gas in it from day one. I leave it in there all winter. It always starts and runs ok in the spring. It has ALL the orginal rubber fuel lines and hoses. None of them have deteriorated. Must be magic..... :o
Oh yeah, it started running hot this past summer so I checked out the fuel system to make sure it wasn't running lean. I took the ALUMINUM carb off and dissembled it. Clean as a pin, no corrosion or trash in the bowl.
Turned out to be a bunch of leaves blocking the trans fan.
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http://www.eng.wayne.edu/page.php?id=636 (http://www.eng.wayne.edu/page.php?id=636)
Please dont look at the pictures. READ. Scootdude, There was NO eth. gas 16 years ago. Not in the US anyway. Here's another FACT: Eth. is a LESS efficient fuel, and requires larger quantiles to create the same power. With me so far? When you add 10% E. to gasoline it dilutes the gasoline. Still w/ me? You are now running your engine LEAN. Not the full 10% lean cause E. does have some power. But approx. 6% leaner. On a tiny HIGH output engine that alone = death to the engine. Still w/ me? Adding decomposing aluminum to the equation, and bits of rubber welllllll!
I see NO ONE has taken my BET! My scoot valued at approx. $3,000.00 against ANYTHING of value. Of course your damn little mower works. It is 5hp, and 3,000 rpm's at best. Ever see a top fuel dragster run on 10% E. fuel? Or a GP PRO bike? Or anything for that matter besides the average engine? I posted this for the PERFORMANCE minded people as it applies to us. Not the average motorist that has sooooo much leeway built into their engines to handle a little E.
I only wish you Nay sayers would research your FACTS. The only thing you are doing is wasting learning time, and MAYBE hurting another's PERFORMANCE engine w/ your OPINION. I've said it before, and I'll say it again PISS OFF!
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Since I KNOW none of you took the time to learn... Here is an exert from the above link. I think this is #13 or so (links)
The team split into two groups: a fuel system modification team and an engine modification team. They faced several challenges in converting the car to run on E-85, a blend of 85 percent ethanol derived from corn. Ethanol corrodes rubber, steel and aluminum - the entire fuel system had to be changed. The team also faced a fuel-efficiency problem. E-85 is one-and-a-half times less efficient than gasoline. Last but not least, they needed to solve the issue of cold-starting. Ethanol has a hard time igniting the engine at temperatures below 30 degrees F.
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Putz's
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We have had ethanol gas here for 20 years........My cub cadet is over head valve and is 20 HP and shaft driven.
Oh yeah I have been working on engines since 1958....and probably forgot more than you think you know.
http://ag.utah.gov/divisions/regulatory/documents/E10%20report%20051910.pdf (http://ag.utah.gov/divisions/regulatory/documents/E10%20report%20051910.pdf)
Ethanol has been added to gasoline since the late 1970s and since that time, the
U.S. fuel grade ethanol production capacity has grown to an estimated 9 billion
gallons per year. Until the late 1980s, ethanol’s primary role in the fuels market was
that of an octane enhancer and it was viewed as an environmentally sound
alternative to the use of lead in gasoline. With its 112.5 blending octane
value(R+M/2), ethanol continues to be one of the most economic octane enhancers
available to the refiner or fuel blender.
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TRUE Scooterdudet. Still not the point tho. My grandma has been changing diaper since before you were born. That does not mean she has been doing it every day for 60 years! I won awards in High School for re designing engines to run on everything from Benzine to turpentine, and HAVE been working on engines ever since. How many racing titles/awards do you have... what was that ? ZERO it shows Bro ett. Ps how's the Eth powered Yugo coming along.... what was that? ZERO.
Stick to the point, and I'll show a bit more respect!
A bitchslap in Super slow motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BRw_ihZRJI#ws)
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Ever see a top fuel dragster run on 10% E. fuel? Or a GP PRO bike? Or anything for that matter besides the average engine? I posted this for the PERFORMANCE minded people as it applies to us.
Yes!
Ethanol is a well known race fuel. High octane, good inner cooling.
Especially E10 fuel was used by Audi Union and Mercedes Benz in their famous "Silberpfeil": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Arrows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Arrows)
And there is another game which the "US highest technology" sleeps away: Biofuel was successfully introduced 2011 by Lufthansa with an Airbus A321 in commercial aero line operation. Not the E10 fuel for cars with otto engines but a 50% bio kerosene: http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=2615 (http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=2615)
This kind of "European PERFORMANCE voodoo" is enough for my mediocre scooter purposes.
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I for one believe Ethonal SUCKS....
We are suppose to be eating the fkn corn, not trying to drive with it.
Of course to back zombie up even your HERO ol Al Gore now believes the ethonal was a a waste of time, almost a big of a waste as this "global warming".
My scooter runs ALOT fkn diffeent with these sorry ass eth stations. IF you can find one with better fuel, try out and see for your self. I can dam sure tell a difference in performance and over all running, just as when i use "mid grade" (89 here) IT SUCKS....
I am surprised that the liberal minds here are even riding a scooter and not walking or on a bicycle these days... :D
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http://www.eng.wayne.edu/page.php?id=636 (http://www.eng.wayne.edu/page.php?id=636)
Please dont look at the pictures. READ. Scootdude, There was NO eth. gas 16 years ago. Not in the US anyway. Here's another FACT: Eth. is a LESS efficient fuel, and requires larger quantiles to create the same power. With me so far? When you add 10% E. to gasoline it dilutes the gasoline. Still w/ me? You are now running your engine LEAN. Not the full 10% lean cause E. does have some power. But approx. 6% leaner.
If the carb is adjusted with certain fuel being predominantly used, there is no reason why the engine would run lean.
Actually, considering that most scoot carbs are set a bit to the rich side, it seems that from mixture point of view, using ethanol infused fuel might actually IMPROVE the mixture compared to "factory" setting using non-ethanol fuel.
Facts have to be carefully evaluated and interpreted and then one come to surprising results, as you can see.
On a tiny HIGH output engine that alone = death to the engine.
Tiny and death are not scientific facts. Also, there is no reason why absolute engine output would be highly correlated with increased damage probability.
Furthermore, it would not be possible to prove that all this causes "death to the engine".
Still w/ me?
Barely, even you look like you lost yourself a bit. ;D
Adding decomposing aluminum to the equation, and bits of rubber welllllll!
"Rubber" has been commented sufficiently.
If one studies this topic sufficiently, he might found out that aluminum corrosion starts being an issue at ratio 85 % ethanol - 15 % gasoline, so there are modifications neccessary if you plan to run your engine on such a mixture. It might be of concern if you import American or European car in South America and plan to run it on their 85 % ethanol fuel.
It is 5hp, and 3,000 rpm's at best.
This is not argument. Not even close.
Ever see a top fuel dragster run on 10% E. fuel? Or a GP PRO bike?
Last time I checked, dragsters primarily ran on nitromethane and not gasoline.
Actually, there are many racing fuels that are 85 % or 98 % ethanol.
There are even teams competing in hot rod and dragster leagues (sorry, I am not American, so I do not know exact divisions) with 98 % ethanol fuel.
I suggest that you do a bit of additional learning on this topic, with your mind open to new facts.
Or anything for that matter besides the average engine?
Yes. As stated previously.
I posted this for the PERFORMANCE minded people as it applies to us. Not the average motorist that has sooooo much leeway built into their engines to handle a little E.
I only wish you Nay sayers would research your FACTS. The only thing you are doing is wasting learning time, and MAYBE hurting another's PERFORMANCE engine w/ your OPINION. I've said it before, and I'll say it again PISS OFF!
While you are at it, you might also find out that modern engines actually develop MORE power running on ethanol fuel with better torque curve.
I know for a fact that Volvo passenger cars for South American markets that run on 85 % ethanol have more power than the same car running on gasoline. The same engine.
I will not post links or waste my time, if you want to increase your knowledge, be my guest.
Why are you so nervous?
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(http://)
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I for one believe Ethonal SUCKS....
We are suppose to be eating the fkn corn, not trying to drive with it.
Of course to back zombie up even your HERO ol Al Gore now believes the ethonal was a a waste of time, almost a big of a waste as this "global warming".
My scooter runs ALOT fkn diffeent with these sorry ass eth stations. IF you can find one with better fuel, try out and see for your self. I can dam sure tell a difference in performance and over all running, just as when i use "mid grade" (89 here) IT SUCKS....
I am surprised that the liberal minds here are even riding a scooter and not walking or on a bicycle these days... :D
Well, South American countries are energy-self- sufficient because of ethanol used as fuel. And only them, in the whole wide world.
USA is oil importer and not exporter, hence inherent need for wars in order to meet growing energy demands for fossil fuels. Yesterday it was Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, today it is Syria, tomorrow it will be Iraq, directly or through proxies.
Perhaps it would be better to drive on corn and not have homeless veterans in the streets and graves full of 20-something year old people "fighting for freedom".
I would not, btw., endorse growing food for fuel either as it causes famine in the long run.
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Yes!
Ethanol is a well known race fuel. High octane, good inner cooling.
Especially E10 fuel was used by Audi Union and Mercedes Benz in their famous "Silberpfeil": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Arrows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Arrows)
And there is another game which the "US highest technology" sleeps away: Biofuel was successfully introduced 2011 by Lufthansa with an Airbus A321 in commercial aero line operation. Not the E10 fuel for cars with otto engines but a 50% bio kerosene: http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=2615 (http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=2615)
This kind of "European PERFORMANCE voodoo" is enough for my mediocre scooter purposes.
What does ANY of that have to do w/ the topic! E. is corrosive.
Here is another TEST to try yourself. pour any synthetic 2t oil into a glass container. Add 10% E. by voulme. Since I KNOW you won't try it any more than read... the result is congealed USELESS 2t oil. The oil will form a sludge that attaches to the container, and will not move. I just got off the phone w/ an old school YAMAHA FACTORY RACE TEAM MECHANIC that has toured the globe. YAMAHA used c12 104 octane as a buffer to counteract the effect of 10% E. fuel found through out the world. The C12 race fuel was added at a ratio of 4:1 to keep a lower octane rating to allow for the fastest "burn rate" possiable. Ts... I appreciate your passion on this but you are still missing the point. APPLICATION! CORROSION! DESTRUCTION! I run my mower on E10 also. Just NOT my scoot. SPI scooter parts, the new Malossi u.s. importer. by the way if you can build a 17=hp scoot, build it, and run it on unicorn piss if you like. I'll be here to point out what caused your failure. XOXOXO " mediocre" not hardly
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Agdnrkleoocvnnmkrleofijbdoo9t= Loss of ebrytopoijvbianism. How do you exlpian fkjsiuiohbd;lr8uygkldoj? And even if you could it will xbahleuhgtuifhvsdkujjsify in the end. There is always the fact that if you add bskjadkgjoietkjykl to this you get SCREWED!
I just liked Axy's big words, and thought I would show I know some too
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I forgot Axy is a cunning-linguist! Probably will disagree w/ my last post too
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The rest of you need something else to do.... May I suggest something?
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Uh ooh. Now we're talking politics. Shut down the thread! hahha
Just because you're 30 or 40 year old tractor still "runs great" doesn't mean that there no deterioration. I have a 36 year old Wheelhorse C-101 lawn tractor that just won't die. I would never claim we haven't replaced any lines, seals, and gaskets, cause we certainly have. And to be honest I don't see what one has to do with the other when talking Ethanol.
I haven't seen anybody bring up one major variable. WEATHER! Wind, rain, salt, heat, cold, even oxygen causes rubber deterioration over time. Not saying that Ethanol isn't a contributing cause too, I'm no scientist, but we all come from places with different climates, countries(policies), and manufacturers(vehicles, rubbers, and petroleum) so your 30 or 40 year old tractor has nothing to do with this debate. Another thing, just let any vehicle(old or new) sit for 10 years with no gas at all and tell me what your fuel hoses look like, or even better, try to put 45psi of fuel through it. Hahha, made me think of taking a shotgun to a garden hose for irrigation drip.
Anyways, any qualified mechanic will tell you, after 30 years it's time to at least replace fuel and vacuum lines. Now there is no doubt in my mind rubber compounds are much more durable today. Doesn't mean that manufacturers today use them. I think they(especially Asian manufacturers) use the cheapest thing they can get. As long as it lasts the 2 year warranty. That's all they care about.
Now, in my humble opinion(please don't bite my head off I'm allowed to my opinion), I believe Ethanol is bad for our traditional gasoline engines. Just because people say it's one way doesn't mean it is. Just look at asbestos, lead in paint and fuel, and not to mention all these prescription drugs that are tested and years later prove to be extremely harmful.
One of my favorite sayings:
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you read
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Amen
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Rally the troops!!! It's time to burn the Witches~~~~~~~~~~~
Burn the Witches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzMrIfkchM#)
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I would not, btw., endorse growing food for fuel either as it causes famine in the long run.
Now THAT was a dam good statement!!!
I give you that one Axy...
You are right but of course if OUR gov wasnt so dam retarted, greedy, politically correct then we could have ALL THE OIL,ETC. WE WANTED in as little as 90 days W/O all the "red tape" that goes along with it. You guys "across the pond" just have never experianced our kind of life. Your gov is probably watching you type your post.. :D (of course OUR gov isn't far behind anymore which is VERY UNFORTUNATE for us)
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Rally the troops!!! It's time to burn the Witches~~~~~~~~~~~
Burn the Witches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzMrIfkchM#)
It's going to be a hot time tonight!! ;) :D
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I think everybody agrees; Dependence on just one fuel supply is asking for trouble.
You know, I think a lot of people outside of the US have a prejudice against Americans. We(most of us anyway) put our pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. We have so little control over what our government does and I hate it. I wish we(the majority) were more involved. Of course there are a lot of idiots out there too. I wouldn't be against having to take a test to see if you actually know the issues before you can vote. Most people jump on a political band wagon because it's popular but don't actually know what they are fighting for.
LOL. I knew this was going political. Damn it! I came on here to ask a question about my belt. I love a good debate though.
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Easy one! WATER+Magnetic Field=Free Power! Pulsate an electro magnet at given frequencies in a sealed hydraulic container, and you get motion. Hydrogen fuel cells power the magnet. NO moving parts... Easy one! I'll say it again...
I am the Smartest Man Alive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuMJBLio7FU#)
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Yes!
Adam Sandler can always break the tension. Except for Funny People, that one was kinda dark.
I love hydrogen as a fuel source although I've never heard of using electro magnets to propel water. I've heard the problem with hydrogen is it takes more energy to capture and compress it than it produces. I'd love to hear more about this Water Magnet.
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Add 10% E. by voulme. Since I KNOW you won't try it any more than read... the result is congealed USELESS 2t oil. The oil will form a sludge that attaches to the container, and will not move.
What has this got to do with ANYTHING?
What happens if you mix ethanol free fuel and engine oil? You get highly nutritious whipped cream? Or sludge too?
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I haven't seen anybody bring up one major variable. WEATHER! Wind, rain, salt, heat, cold, even oxygen causes rubber deterioration over time.
Sorry, but I did, at least twice. It was dismissed and every rubber compound damage was instantly attributed to 10 % of Mean Ethanol Devil.
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I forgot Axy is a cunning-linguist! Probably will disagree w/ my last post too
You forget many things, clear and objective facts most often among them.
As for being "cunning linguist", my English is seriously lacking because it is the third language out of four I use, and I have never claimed it was one of my strong points.
However, I guess my linguistic prowess is sufficient enough to bring the message across the communication channel.
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I would not, btw., endorse growing food for fuel either as it causes famine in the long run.
Now THAT was a dam good statement!!!
I give you that one Axy...
You are right but of course if OUR gov wasnt so dam retarted, greedy, politically correct then we could have ALL THE OIL,ETC. WE WANTED in as little as 90 days W/O all the "red tape" that goes along with it. You guys "across the pond" just have never experianced our kind of life. Your gov is probably watching you type your post.. :D (of course OUR gov isn't far behind anymore which is VERY UNFORTUNATE for us)
I am so sorry that you are ignorant so do not understand that, unfortunately, my country is in the same bandwagon with USA and NATO. If you had any information about your surroundings outside of your home town, you might find out that US Army and NATO are using certain rural areas of my country for military exercises. Officers and soldiers from our army are unfortunately in Afghanistan too, fighting other peoples' wars.
Empires based around plundering and wars are destined to fail. It was so throughout the human history. I will state just the example of Roman empire.
I am afraid, you will have to step out of your trailer home ;D and understand that bi-polar world does not exist anymore. That's why enemies have to be invented. BRIC countries and China are coming along fast, and when they achieve sufficient economic strength, they will want their piece of political strength too. USA is not any more leading power in the world. If you need a proof for that, ask the generation of your parents how they lived and compare that with how you live. Purchasing power of grown ups in USA today is half what it used to be in 70s.
As for Internet traffic, it is and was analyzed and tapped into since its beginnings. I hope you have enough capacity to understand what Echelon is. Actually, USA has been analyzing all traffic before any other country in the world. Here, "across the pond", you still cannot be detained indefinitely without trial. We still do not have FEMA camps here.
Your comment about "guys across the pond" just shows what the true level of your ignorance is. Unfortunately, USA is actually, "across the pond", not Europe. For me this is sad, because throughout my childhood, USA was sort of an idol to look up to, and in the last ten years it became the last country in the world, except war zones, where I would want to live. A lot of great people, without a doubt, but with completely corrupt system. USA was the country of the free, where everything is possible and everybody can live "an American dream". It makes me sad to see what it has become in the past decade.
Anyway, back to ethanol, something constructive to add from your side, or just right wing -hurr durr - Confederate - "I need to know just three letters, and they are U, S and A" propaganda, as usually? :)
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I think everybody agrees; Dependence on just one fuel supply is asking for trouble.
You know, I think a lot of people outside of the US have a prejudice against Americans.
I don't think so. I work in a company where 110+ different nationalities work.
Smart person will never claim general stereotypes against a group of people. That cannot be a smart person.
Many Americans are simply victims of its government, just as people in my country are victims of our ruling elite.
I have many times complained here about our taxes. We have 40 % income tax, 20 % pension contribution and 15 % health contribution from the gross salary.
On top of that we have had 23 % VAT (sales tax) and they have decided to raise it to 25 % from March because they have completely emptied the state budget.
These are idiots that are ruling our lives and the best thing is that they are "democratically" elected. :)
People as a species are generally prejudiced against anything that is different. This is a hypothesis that does not require proof, it is more like an axiom.
We've had a war here 20 years ago between two groups you cannot tell apart if you look at them. We even speak almost the same language, the religion is the same, just different orientation (orthodox vs. catholic). Yet, it was enough for heads to be chopped off.
It is a part of human nature to form different "packs". Dogs or primates are not different either.
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Now that temperatures rise above freezing point and fuel prices rised significantly (E0 Super 1.679€/litre, E10 Super 1.599, E85 Super 1.059), I will top the usual E10 with E85 again - like i did several times before - mixture according to the temperatures 3:1 or 2:1.
My commute is on a 10 year old Motobecane scooter with Morini engine. The car and the Kymco scooter is newer and their E10 compatibility self-evident (and they get their E85 kickshaw too!).
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I don't think so. I work in a company where 110+ different nationalities work.
Smart person will never claim general stereotypes against a group of people. That cannot be a smart person.
Many Americans are simply victims of its government, just as people in my country are victims of our ruling elite.
I have many times complained here about our taxes. We have 40 % income tax, 20 % pension contribution and 15 % health contribution from the gross salary.
On top of that we have had 23 % VAT (sales tax) and they have decided to raise it to 25 % from March because they have completely emptied the state budget.
These are idiots that are ruling our lives and the best thing is that they are "democratically" elected. :)
It is a part of human nature to form different "packs". Dogs or primates are not different either.
Agreed axy. I don't know what's going on in your country. Ignorance is easy in the US. I find what you wrote to be very interesting. My statement was "a lot of people have prejudice". I wasn't directing it toward you and you're right intelligent people don't judge a group of people or country they know little to nothing about.
I am afraid, you will have to step out of your trailer home ;D
That's unnecessary and offensive. And the truth is most of the world population would give almost anything to own a mobile home in the US.
PS. Thats perspective
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Hey Peters don't sweat it bro. People i Crow ate ya still live in caves, and trees, and stuff like that. I've gotten many great recipes for monkey, and grubs from Axy's mom.
Ts1... Your mom left her beeper on my night stand. Will you please tell her I will mail it to her.
PLEASE don't cry boys~
For real now guys. MOST of the vehicles on the road or otherwise seem to tolerate E. fuels. This whole thread brings many facts to the table regarding same. The underlying issue remains. SCIENCE/STUDIES People smarter than some of you have proven/published the foundation of my statement.
I have agreed with MANY of your statements as they are based on REAL LIFE experience, and I have had mostly the same experiences regarding this subject. Still the fact remains E. is a KNOWN corrosive agent, and is shipped/stored/handled as such. That's all I have been pointing out here for several years. It is easier to fix a problem if you know the cause. It is also better to avoid a problem if you know how to prevent it. Now watch this...SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~AXY'S MOM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM!
Just admit the thread is correct in basis...C'mon guys... It won't hurt, and I won't tell
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How bout we go to the root of the problem: Cheap parts. I wouldn't doubt Kymco imports things like fuel lines and other rubbers from China(hahha, Chinese rubbers, sorry). Why wouldn't they, we do.
Lets be honest, Kwang Yang doesn't give a damn if rubber rots after the 2 year warranty. I have loads of experience with sub par Chinese automotive equipment. I install the sh** brand new and I'm always modifying, hammering, or drilling something. They never hear about it and if we tried to tell them, they would just act like they don't know what we're talking about.
I thought I saw an American scooter manufacturers website at some point. Maybe they're Chinese and/or Taiwanese parts though. Or I could be crazy
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I think it was Fly scooters. I was right they are/were assembled in China and Taiwan. I found their facebook page and wiki but they must not have done well their website is shut down.
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TGB or TBG or something like that "promotes" them selves as an American scoot. They are fairly good scoots = to Kymco more or less. BUT they are Asian parts assembled in the U.S. to avoid the motor vehicle import tariffs.
You are also right on the China quality issue. The scoot the coupler came off of is a China copy of a Vespa. (using a QMB TYPE eng.) Better bikes use better components, and are LESS prone to the effects. Again BUTTTTTT the effects are still present.
Except for the "flatlanders", and their mumbo jumbo voodoo sh*t who are (as proven by third world science to be) immune.
I just can't do this any more... Too f'n easy to beat up old ladies! NEXT
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I just can't do this any more... Too f'n easy to beat up old ladies! NEXT
..how's that chore-boy feeln about now??...
..better yet, how's it smell?
:o
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Still the fact remains E. is a KNOWN corrosive agent, and is shipped/stored/handled as such.
Gasoline is a known corrosive agent and shipped/stored/handled as such too.
That's all I have been pointing out here for several years. It is easier to fix a problem if you know the cause. It is also better to avoid a problem if you know how to prevent it. Now watch this...SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~AXY'S MOM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM~SEAFOAM!
Tourette's syndrome seems to be one of side-effects of inhaling fumes during meth cooking. ;D ;)
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when they achieve sufficient economic strength, they will want their piece of political strength too. USA is not any more leading power in the world. If you need a proof for that, ask the generation of your parents how they lived and compare that with how you live. Purchasing power of grown ups in USA today is half what it used to be in 70s.
[/quote]This is a conversation that I really don't like to enter. But when something is said about my country that is so far off base, I must. You said something about us not living as well as our parents. Sorry Axy, but you don't know what you are talking about. As a 73 year old man, I have lived during the time most of the parents you're talking about lived in. My parents worked and lived in the early 1900's and lived well for the time. Dad had a car, a TV when they came out, etc, etc. My family was certainly not rich but they/we were comfortable. Today there is much more available, just about everyone can get whatever they want. Most homes have multiple TV’s and car for every driver. My kids, all four of them have more than I had, the oldest of my grandchildren are also doing very well with more available then I had available and the ability to get it. I’m sorry Axy, I don’t know what you are reading or hearing, but it is all wrong. Everything here is better today. Come on over and check us out. I’ve been to some of the Western European countries, they don’t compare to what we have and I understand that Eastern Europe has less than the west where I have been. If you don’t know it, don’t teach it. Now I am already sorry I got into this conversation. But you have my first hand opinion. Stay with scoots, Sea Foam, and gasoline you seem to be well informed in that area.
Richard L.
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Still the fact remains E. is a KNOWN corrosive agent
Yepp - and water too.
You know that we (Germans) can easily have 10 years / 80000km warranty even for a 50cc scoot? (And 10 years / 200000km for a car etc.) In addition those manufacturers claim, that their vehicles are E10 compatible. ::)
But you told us about your awards and racing titles ...
What is your real profession - for example concerning BMW motorcycles - mechanic journeyman or chief Dr. engineer in the BMW motorcycle desgin office?
What are your racing records - for example in Formula1?
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Yepp - and water too.
You know that we (Germans) can easily have 10 years / 80000km warranty even for a 50cc scoot? (And 10 years / 200000km for a car etc.) In addition those manufacturers claim, that their vehicles are E10 compatible. ::)
I didn't know about 10yrs/80K kms for scoots.
I know that Fiat 500 was the first car to offer 10yr warranty.
My car has 7 yr full warranty. (bought in late 2009)
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That happens first (tourretts). I'm WELL past that now!
Car vs Scooter (Crazy Crash) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ6FRMIKx3w#)
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I didn't know about 10yrs/80K kms for scoots.
Peugeot is imho the first with 10 years even for scooters. Initiative just started, perhaps only in Germany: http://www.kfz-betrieb.vogel.de/motorradmarkt/articles/352200/ (http://www.kfz-betrieb.vogel.de/motorradmarkt/articles/352200/)
Of course every extended warranty is a customer tie (maintenance at the authorized shop) and more expensive than just the minimum legal warranty.
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"What are your racing records - for example in Formula1?"
Actually YES. Not an F1 car but an F1 engine. I am Mercruiser certified. One of their older engines (1986) is known as the 170hp 3.7 litre. This is 1/2 of the aluminum blocked Cosworth race engine designed for F1. Adding fuel injection, a dry exhaust (headers) ported heads, and modified pistons the engine DYNO'ED at 325hp at the crank. The engine/boat won the "Around the Island" race (flown by Peter Presti) 2 years in a row. This engine was Nitro Methane fueled. (which is the fuel I believe you referred to as a drag race fuel but you called it ethanol) Nitro Methane is Methanol/castor oil (for stabillity) and Nitros oxide. It is much more dangerous than Eth. The Around the Island race is referring to Long Island, New York.
Why don't you google it. My name is attached.
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when they achieve sufficient economic strength, they will want their piece of political strength too. USA is not any more leading power in the world. If you need a proof for that, ask the generation of your parents how they lived and compare that with how you live. Purchasing power of grown ups in USA today is half what it used to be in 70s.
This is a conversation that I really don't like to enter. But when something is said about my country that is so far off base, I must. You said something about us not living as well as our parents. Sorry Axy, but you don't know what you are talking about. As a 73 year old man, I have lived during the time most of the parents you're talking about lived in. My parents worked and lived in the early 1900's and lived well for the time. Dad had a car, a TV when they came out, etc, etc. My family was certainly not rich but they/we were comfortable. Today there is much more available, just about everyone can get whatever they want. Most homes have multiple TV’s and car for every driver. My kids, all four of them have more than I had, the oldest of my grandchildren are also doing very well with more available then I had available and the ability to get it. I’m sorry Axy, I don’t know what you are reading or hearing, but it is all wrong. Everything here is better today. Come on over and check us out. I’ve been to some of the Western European countries, they don’t compare to what we have and I understand that Eastern Europe has less than the west where I have been. If you don’t know it, don’t teach it. Now I am already sorry I got into this conversation. But you have my first hand opinion. Stay with scoots, Sea Foam, and gasoline you seem to be well informed in that area.
Richard L.
Richard, don't be offended by facts. I do not think that people in USA are homeless and poor.
I just said that purchasing power of the nation is sinking rapidly. Dollar is worth close to nothing.
Comparisons between countries are very difficult to make, even futile sometimes.
For example, I tried once on this forum to explain to one member who is reading this also, that we have free health care for everybody.
Full coverage, top notch.
He could not even comprehend that something like that is possible.
In USA with 1 dollar you can't do anything, in some other countries, you can live for a day quite comfortably.
In USA you can have "many stuffs", but 50 million people have no health insurance.
In Cuba, you cannot drive a Ferrari, but you have free food and health care for everybody, the best hospitals in the world and very good quality of life.
In my country, I have bigger income than average American, but that does not mean that everybody has it.
Etc, etc.
And as 73 yr old person you should also understand that you, your child and grandchild are not a representative statistic sample.
Representative statistic sample is strictly defined by the science of statistics.
Obsession with "having stuff" is one of the reasons why your children will be owned by the Chinese. In fact,they already are - do you know who owns 30 % of US foreign debt? Do you even comprehend how much money is 14 trillion dollars? These 14 trillion of dollars printed out of thin are are what US has spent but did not have, in order to finance pointless "buying stuff".
The main export product of post WW II USA is - CRISIS. Crisis is exported to other countries, packaged as war, economic crisis or conflict. It has been like that for decades now. USSR, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq twice, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Egypt, not to mention backing up South and Central American dictators, you name it, it has been done. USA has been playing a world cop for decades. Saddam was a friend once, then he was set up with not existing weapons of mass destruction. Gadaffi was a friend once, then enemy, then friend again, and then villain to-be-asassinated. Talibans were friends once, enemies now. Osama was a friend of Bush family from Saudi Arabia, and then he became enemy nr. 1. The story goes on and on.
The main source of revenue is military-industrial complex. Without it, USA cannot survive anymore. Deindustrialization is at its peak - what can USA produce today better and cheaper than Chinese? Find out whose goods are sold in Walmart. General idea 40-50 years ago was: we will export dirty industry to the East and they will work for us as poorly paid slaves, we will do services each to other and blow up balance sheets of financial sector. What has been happening in the past 5 years proves how good this paradigm was.
Unfortunately, most European countries except Germany and France took the same route and now they are equally bankrupt as USA, both morally and financially.
My country is also obsessed with "having things", usually, "things people do not need in order to impress people they do not care about." That kind of stuff.
That's why our foreign debt is skyrocketing and we are owned by those who loaned us money. In our case, German and Italian banks.
In your case, China, Japan, UK, Brazil, OPEC countries.
Currently, purchasing power is at its lowest point SINCE 1955. IN USA.
Nobody ever said truth was easy.
Also, I can very well separate American people from American establishment and elite and I firmly believe that democracy is in fact idiot-cracy, because the average and idiots choose among them who will rule over them, but human race on the whole still did not invent better system than capitalism and democracy, so we have to cope with them for the time being...
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"The main source of revenue is military-industrial complex. Without it, USA cannot survive anymore. Deindustrialization is at its peak"
Regular bar room conversation here!
If you guys would stop pissing on each other for a moment... Tomorrows new topic will be on cleaning your plastic's with Manatee oil, and how easy it is to obtain from China. (I have a friend there toooo) His name is Fok Que Boat...
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Yup! Like shooting monkeys in a barrel.
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Axy, like I said, "Stay with scoots, Sea Foam, and gasoline you seem to be well informed in that area." Snf, byw everyone has access to med care. No person can be turned away. Also, the dollar floats internationally, at home it does not float.
Richard L.
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Z-man,
Couldn't resist after your last post:
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=58221 (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=58221)
Anyway, finding the ethanol debate quite entertaining. I thought you were down for the count after Axy's series of "jabs and uppercuts" in the seventh round, but you lifted yourself from the mat and came up swinging! After 10 rounds I have it dead even. Cheers to both of you in this heavyweight bout!
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As the Judge was passing sentence he could not help but ask of the poacher... "What exactly does camp fire roasted Bald Eagle taste like?"
The poacher replied... "A little like Whooping Crane, in my opinion."
"Still the fact remains E. is a KNOWN corrosive agent"
"Yepp - and water too." Looks suspiciously like an admission of the stated fact, in my opinion.
One down, and one to go... Thx. Calo! Insert steel wool, adjust Jock strap, blow snot from nose... DING!
The Stupid Boxer Who Cant Get Into The Ring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzsWyuKLQo#)
PSSSSSTT! Axy... Stop, drop, and roll Bro!
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine)
Here Axy. This link has pictures in it. Easier to follow IMHO. The auto makers are complaining about Eth. blend fuels!
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Other Alcohol Issues
Alcohol is corrosive and can degrade plastic, rubber or even metal parts in the fuel system that weren't engineered to use alcohol-bearing fuel. Consequently, that antique Evinrude outboard or '60s lawn tractor you bought at the swap meet might need some upgrading to stay together on today's gas. That means corrosion-resistant tanks, alcohol-tolerant rubber lines, seals and fuel-pump diaphragms, and plastic fuel-system parts that won't swell up in the presence of alcohol. Vintage boats with internal fiberglass tanks often have issues with the coating inside the tank failing, sometimes requiring massive structural modifications. Highly tuned two-stroke engines will run leaner (and consequently hotter) on the lower Btu/gallon alcohol mix, potentially leading to melted pistons and scuffed cylinder walls. Alcohol will also scour varnish and deposits out of the fuel system that have remained in place for years, which will eventually wind up in the filter or main jet, choking off the engine's fuel supply. Worse yet, the alcohol itself oxidizes in the tank and produces a tenacious brown glop that's far more damaging to fuel systems than the varnish we're used to seeing in pure petroleum fuels. In warmer weather, you can see varnish starting to form within a month of dispensing fresh fuel into a vehicle tank or storage can.
Advice Give Up! Just stay down man. My hands hurt...
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The prior post is a quote from the article linked in the post before that... Still w/ me?
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Her legs hurt
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I sure would not drink a beer at that party. Like to see her open one tho. I guess that's an Eth. post Peters
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Check out the guy on the far right... Slinger? That you Bro?
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Thought it might help break the tension. And I'll take any chance I get to post that pic. I don't care who you are that's funny right there. Don't worry I have more.
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine)
Here Axy. This link has pictures in it. Easier to follow IMHO. The auto makers are complaining about Eth. blend fuels!
If you had the ability to understand written context, you would realize that problems are actually caused by water, not ethanol.
Btw. if you disagree with ethanol in fuels, write to your representative in the Congress. What are you waiting for?
Here, in Eastern Europe, we do not have this kind of issue.
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That's the point Axy! If ethanol were NOT in the fuel water would NOT be attracted to it. Here I'll type it for you...
Zombie is correct. "Ethanol does create issues with some engines/fuel systems due to it "nature". These are problems that would not exist if ethanol were removed/replaced." All you have to do is cut, and paste. You KNOW you wanna... We all know you should. It will only sting FOREVER!
How Ethanol Gas Attracts Water from the Air - Demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo#)
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Some amount of water is in every fuel - already from the refinery. Ethanol may attract even more. And any temperature change adds more to a tank esp. in cold-wet North Europe (store your vehicle with full tank to minimize air exchange!). All our vehicles with combustion engine are white smokers (steam) on the first kilometres. Engineers should (and usually do) take care anyway.
Water in the fuel may be added on purpose too. Especially for (diesel) trains and (otto or gas engine) aeroplanes. While there are difficulties with phase segregation and an second tank isn't desirable, the combustion becomes cleaner (less NOx) and compression can be higher.
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That's the point Axy! If ethanol were NOT in the fuel water would NOT be attracted to it.
I am afraid that water is present also in gasoline, and ON PURPOSE.
Gasoline is corrosive agent, in my country it is classified as corrosive agent Class 1. According to ISO standard regulating this area, this means that it corrodes copper material after 3 hours of exposure at temperature of 50 C.
Small addition of water to gasoline AND ethanol creates natural film of oxidation on the surface of aluminum alloy materials used in engines. This natural film then protects the material from further degradation and corrosive influence of gasoline and, to a smaller extent, OH- ions from ethanol.
Of course, there is a clear delimiter between desired volume of water in gasoline and undesired one. I do not have that information at hand.
I have been following articles in newspapers dealing with gasoline quality tests in my country. Gasoline exiting rafineries is produced according to the highest specs. The problem occurs during transport and storage. Small gas stations are saving money on tank cleaning and drainage processing and have lower turnover of gasoline. They often deal with smaller transport companies that provide service at lower cost but also save on cleaning truck tanks. The end result is dirt and water in gasoline, not in dramatic quantities, but significant and measurable. I would say the same logic applies to ethanol infused fuels and would be willing to bet that much bigger problem for those who use them is fuel quality control and sourcing than 10 % ethanol fuel by itself.
Also, I remind once again, we have 5 % ethanol fuel here (all fuels) and nobody every mentions ethanol as a source of issues. In fact, if you asked any driver do they know that gasoline contains ethanol AT ALL, the answer would be negative. This is simply not a topic here, it is a "non-issue".
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Water in the fuel may be added on purpose too. Especially for (diesel) trains and (otto or gas engine) aeroplanes. While there are difficulties with phase segregation and an second tank isn't desirable, the combustion becomes cleaner (less NOx) and compression can be higher.
Now you just lost your mind... If you wish to remain UN-affronted, DROP THE ANTIQUATED SCIENCE!
Small addition of water to gasoline AND ethanol creates natural film of oxidation on the surface of aluminum alloy materials used in engines. This natural film then protects the material from further degradation and corrosive influence of gasoline and, to a smaller extent, OH- ions from ethanol.
Two down. NONE TO GO!
Seven pages to reach a consensus... Or does admission of MY original sound better? Peace, and good will to all! ('cept Ts... Cry to mommy big boy)
Ok... Ts also I guess~
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By the way Ts... Those are some of the same disadvantages I told you about, Now you want to debate them as yours? Someone owes me a scoot!
Wheres my Money Stewie & Brian (Hd) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZomwVcGt0LE#noexternalembed-ws)
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Those are some of the same disadvantages I told you about, Now you want to debate them as yours?
Neither mine nor yours. ;) Ethanol is a little bit different from petrol (but not as much as diesel) and manageable (not as difficult as diesel).
You are right with many basic facts about Ethanol, but Nikolaus Otto could manage it 150 years ago and mankind can still manage it - at least outside the USA - and not to forget in US-California too!
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good think gas tanks are not made of rubber.
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LUV you guys!!! There is alot of info on this thread. I hope it helps...
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TGB (taiwans golden bee) have made some decent stuff, alot better than other makes. I haven't owned one yet but thats what i heard and read about them from experiance and not the ad. ;D
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I "tuned one up" for some couple that saw mine... It is an impressive scoot. It rides real small tho. More so than an Ag. Still real nice parts. Not made in America tho...
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AAAnnnddd, Not to throw salt around... Their main problem was the Carb. bowl gasket was disintegrating. They drooped the scoot in a minor accident, and it wouldn't start again. All those "rubber" partials got dislodged, and clogged the jets. Made them a paper gasket...
Could be witches tho . maybe .
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WITCHES??????????? COOOOULD VERY WELL BE.. :D
SSSHHHHHH....... They may BURN THE WITCHES.....
I recently had my fuel line on the s9 stretch out like a stretchy man from back in the days..I'd pull it and it would just strrrrrrreeettch as long as i wanted... ::)
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Polymeric bonds between the rubber and fuel proofing compounds breaking down due to... Anyone? I don't see any hands up...
I found Axy on utube... ENJOY
The A.D.D test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LUAnIDwZ3M#ws)
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Couldn't help but to laugh at that guy.
:D :D :D :D
What a video...... :-X
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Axy has a older "how to" vid posted. This guy looks just like him. A.D.D. was just a bonus.
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If ethanol is so benign why is was this product developed ? Lucas Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner : Lucas Oil . Seems like a lot of effort for such an isignificant issue .
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"If ethanol is so benign why is was this product developed ?"
Moonshine
Son
Methanol is created first... Ethanol is the left over from that process.
Kinda like Meth, and Meatballs...
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Moonshine
Son
....whew :-\ ...cant handle that...
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Recovery is the first step to being a quitter! Winners NEVER quit! Quitters never win!
Winston Churchill
as stated to: Sherlock Holmes
witnessed by: me
last week...
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...i saw that movie!...both of them!!
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Hey wait... EUREAKA! A good use for ethanol...What is was MADE FOR!!!!! DRINKING!
THE ULTIMATE DRUNK PEOPLE COMPILATION VIDEO EVER!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZmDWltBziM#)
I bet the cop made up the last test himself. I would!
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Hey wait... EUREAKA! A good use for ethanol...What is was MADE FOR!!!!! DRINKING!
..i love you zombie.....
::)
..i love beer too..............
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Watcha wearing?
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...ummm kakhis....
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Family Guy Herbert the Pervert Impression--The Real Life Old Man! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwvpLq7mMQ#noexternalembed-ws)
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http://youtu.be/O5y4z_szG7Y (http://youtu.be/O5y4z_szG7Y)
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Potassium Explosion (8 GRAMS) -slow motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5694559VoQ#ws)
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There goes the thread!
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..i don't think so... ???
....that issa good representation of what ethanol does to rubber..
;D
......i'm just sayin........
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And us! Careful tho! They may be licking their wounds, and re-grouping!
Follow my lead bro, if you wanna survive this thread...
Left 4 Dead - Massive witch attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JGmLlbCysE#)
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...i'm just here for comic relief and moral support and peace and...
..stuff like that..
;)
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Vicious Rotty attacking owners face! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keFfKJZW-Ao#)
I already wish I didn't find this one...
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..i bet she was rubbin her c... all the while...
..modified:
..guess i shouldnt have said that...
:-*
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I knew this thread had bottomed out but... My FAVORITE movie? Treasure of the Sierra Madre! (Bogart/Huston)
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My best advice after going 15 rounds, and then into over time... ?
I never debate/argue/disagree with my enemies because if they are anything like me they will NEVER quit!
Did you guys see reason #7 why Harley riders don't wave to scooters... They're afraid the bars will shake off.
YUP!
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First off enthanol is more expensive to make then gas, ever think that could be a factor in the gas prices? Ethanol create less energy then gas and burns faster! Maybe if we were sould plan gas we would get better milage? Ethanol is corosive! That is a fact! If it isn't go by straight ethanol and fill you scooter with it and let me know what happens. Hahahaha! I read all about e 85 when they were first studying it to see if it could replace gas. They had to coat everything with teflon gass lines ect so they wouldn't corrode. Ethnol mixed gas burns hotter also. Ethnol makes the gas oxygenated which can damage older cars trucks 2 stroke engines ect. Oxygenated gas also has been the cause of water contaminated gas. The small benifit of oxygenated gas odes no out way the damage, it drives up gas prices, causes the consumer to get worse milage and damage to engines. I have a 2 stroke scooter and ethanol gas is really bad for it and causes it to run hotter and it will do the same for all air cooled motors. I have found a place in my area that sells non oxygenated racing fuel. The price of that fuel cost more (around $7 a gallon) but the pay of is increased milage, cooler running engine, increased compression, and longer engine life. Is it worth it? I say yes! The one reason I come up with why the government is putting ethnol in gas is to benifit the farmer. after all thats where ethanol begins life!
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First off enthanol is more expensive to make then gas
Yes - on the first glance.
The second thought is how long fossil gas will be cheaper. The easy wells are draining. The bio technology is advancing (algae fuel).
The third thought is how much the indirect costs are - i.e. costs for the "oil war I" (Iraq). How much will you pay for oil war II (Iran)?
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The one reason I come up with why the government is putting ethnol in gas is to benifit the farmer. after all thats where ethanol begins life!
There is a program in the U.S. that pays farmers for NOT planting crops. This is mostly aimed at corn/wheat farmers. This program goes back to the late 1930's. There has been so much pressure on the Govt. to end this program they needed a way to phase it out. Thus Ethanol specific corn planting.
I don't know all the nuances involved in this farming business, but I do know E is NOT a good replacement for fossil fuel. Not with the infrastructure we have. Fossil will run empty, and VERY soon. Perhaps in our life time. Synthetic Hydrocarbons have not been mentioned at all. This is the route that SHOULD be pursued.
Save the food fields for PEOPLE. Stop draining the planet that supports us. Stop KILLING for a FINITE resource. Synthetic fuel is more expensive to produce = TRUE. Cell phones cost $3,000.00 when they were introduced. Now they are free. Put the research, and production in HI gear.
From WIKI:
Direct conversion of coal to synthetic fuel was originally developed in Germany.[11] The Bergius process was developed by Friedrich Bergius, yielding a patent on the Bergius process in 1913. Karl Goldschmidt invited him to build an industrial plant at his factory the Th. Goldschmidt AG (now known as Evonik Industries) in 1914.[12] The production began only in 1919.[citation needed]
Also indirect coal conversion (where coal is gasified and then converted to synthetic fuels) was developed in Germany by Franz Fischer and Hans Tropsch in 1923.[11] During World War II, Germany used synthetic oil manufacturing (German: Kohleverflüssigung) to produce substitute (Ersatz) oil products by using the Bergius process (from coal), the Fischer–Tropsch process (water gas), and other methods (Zeitz used the TTH and MTH processes).[13][14] Before World War Two in 1931, the British Department of Scientific and Industrial Research located in Greenwich, England set up a small facility where hydrogen gas at extreme high pressure was combined with coal to make a synthetic fuel.[15]
The Bergius process plants were the primary source of Nazi Germany's high-grade aviation gasoline and the source of most of its synthetic oil, 99% of its synthetic rubber and nearly all of its synthetic methanol, synthetic ammonia, and nitric acid. Nearly 1/3 of the Bergius production was produced by plants in Pölitz (Polish: Police) and Leuna, with more than 1/3 more in five other plants (Ludwigshafen had a much smaller Bergius plant[16] which improved "gasoline quality by dehydrogenation" using the DHD process).[14]
Synthetic fuel grades included "T.L. [jet] fuel ", "first quality aviation gasoline", "aviation base gasoline", and "gasoline - middle oil";[14] and "producer gas" and diesel were synthesized for fuel as well (e.g., converted armored tanks used producer gas).[13]:4,s2 By early 1944, German synthetic fuel production had reached more than 124,000 barrels per day (19,700 m3/d) from 25 plants,[17][verification needed] including 10 in the Ruhr Area.[18]:239 In 1937, the four central Germany lignite coal plants at Böhlen, Leuna, Magdeburg/Rothensee, and Zeitz, along with the Ruhr Area bituminous coal plant at Scholven/Buer, had produced 4.8 million barrels (760×103 m3) of fuel. Four new hydrogenation plants (German: Hydrierwerke) were subsequently erected at Bottrop-Welheim (which used "Bituminous coal tar pitch"),[14] Gelsenkirchen (Nordstern), Pölitz, and, at 200,000 tons/yr[14] Wesseling.[19] Nordstern and Pölitz/Stettin used bituminous coal, as did the new Blechhammer plants.[14] Heydebreck synthesized food oil, which was tested on concentration camp prisoners.[20] The Geilenberg Special Staff was using 350,000 mostly foreign forced laborers to reconstruct the bombed synthetic oil plants,[18]:210,224 and, in an emergency decentralization program, to build 7 underground hydrogenation plants for bombing protection (none were completed). (Planners had rejected an earlier such proposal because the war was to be won before the bunkers would be completed.)[16] In July 1944, the 'Cuckoo' project[21] underground synthetic oil plant (800,000 m2) was being "carved out of the Himmelsburg" North of the Mittelwerk,[13] but the plant was unfinished at the end of WWII.
Indirect Fischer-Tropsch ("FT") technologies were brought to the US after World War 2, and a 7,000 barrels per day (1,100 m3/d) plant was designed by HRI, and built in Brownsville Texas. The plant represented the first commercial use of high-temperature Fischer Tropsch conversion. It operated from 1950 to 1955, when it was shut down when the price of oil dropped due to enhanced production and huge discoveries in the Middle East.[11]
After World War Two, in 1949 a demonstration plant for converting coal to gasoline was built and operated by the U.S. Bureau of Mines in Louisiana, Missouri.[22] Direct coal conversion plants were also developed in the US after WW2, including a 3 TPD plant in Lawrenceville, NJ, and a 250-600 TPD Plant in Catlettsburg, KY.
Those are just some of the background facts. There is toooooo much more to keep anyones interest... unfortunitly.
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"Indirect Fischer-Tropsch ("FT") technologies were brought to the US after World War 2, and a 7,000 barrels per day (1,100 m3/d) plant was designed by HRI, and built in Brownsville Texas. The plant represented the first commercial use of high-temperature Fischer Tropsch conversion. It operated from 1950 to 1955, when it was shut down when the price of oil dropped due to enhanced production and huge discoveries in the Middle East.[11]"
Hindsight is 20/20 eh?
To -paraphrase... The collapse of civilization is not leaning from the past.
Español Latino - Bart contra el hamster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-SXkNbyiPI#)
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Same procedure as last spring:
Today, with rising fuel prices and temperatures (not freezing), I fed my scoot again with E85. Current E85:E10 mixture is 1:3 (=E29), I'll increase the Ethanol percentage, when temperatures rise >=10.
E85 is actually 1.059€ / litre, E10 1.629€ / litre. Easy math, that you get more energy (calorific value) with Ethanol fuel.
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Same procedure as last spring:
Today, with rising fuel prices and temperatures (not freezing), I fed my scoot again with E85. Current E85:E10 mixture is 1:3 (=E29), I'll increase the Ethanol percentage, when temperatures rise >=10.
E85 is actually 1.059€ / litre, E10 1.629€ / litre. Easy math, that you get more energy (calorific value) with Ethanol fuel.
Since I don't want to debate the caloric value... Is your scoot STOCK, or re jetted? Stock heat range on the spark plug? Stock Ignition coil? I simply can't fathom how it is running on dirty booze!
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Everything stock. I dont want to rejet, because there aren't very many E85 petrol stations and I'm too lazy/greedy to make a 1 mile detour.
Of course the actual rainy 6°C (43°F) day isn't perfect for Ethanol use. Bad throttle response for the first seconds like with E10 at freezing temperatures. I blame the humidity for 5°C and the increased Ethanol percentage for another 5°C.
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Everything stock. I dont want to rejet, because there aren't very many E85 petrol stations and I'm too lazy/greedy to make a 1 mile detour.
Of course the actual rainy 6°C (43°F) day isn't perfect for Ethanol use. Bad throttle response for the first seconds like with E10 at freezing temperatures. I blame the humidity for 5°C and the increased Ethanol percentage for another 5°C.
Well that was the point of the thread. Ethanol blends are less than ideal for our scoots.
All I can really say at this point is "Good luck with that!"
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Is that the croatian talk you guys were talking about? ;)
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Yeah! I just learned another word...SKEEEEET SKEEEEET
Sounds kinda cute eh!
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http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=5865.new#new (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=5865.new#new)
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http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=5865.new#new (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=5865.new#new)
That is a terrible looking jar.. :o
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Around freezing point again and bad throttle response from idling to clutch-in on the first mile. Luckily I took the modest E35 (1:2) and was not greedy for cheaper E48 (1:1).
After another mile next red trafic light and no problems.
Anyway less engine vibrations than with E10 (the Minarelli usually runs quite hard).
Edit: Sorry, I was greedy and filled with 3.1 litre E85 but the tank has only 9.x litre volume. So I'm running E35 now.
Numbers above corrected.
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I'm running about 110 proof right now(BAC Approx 2.08 ppm) and finally agree w/ you Ts1. Ethanol IS GREAT! I shoulda put in ME sooner.
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HEY Z, I foung this today at a local Mazda/Mercedes dealer ship in town....
I'm sure you will be the only one to appreciate this.. I got your back. ;) :D
ANNNYWAY, I know the socialist party doesnt want to see more proof but here it is any how....
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/375f0edc.jpg (http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/375f0edc.jpg)
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/f990215c.jpg (http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/f990215c.jpg)
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/a0210e60.jpg (http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/a0210e60.jpg)
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/3074840a.jpg (http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/3074840a.jpg)
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/5aae51af.jpg (http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/5aae51af.jpg)
I tried rotating them on my computer but when they were uploaded they switch back...
More proof of ethanol's nasty ass ways......
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(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/375f0edc.jpg)
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(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/f990215c.jpg)
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/a0210e60.jpg)
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/3074840a.jpg)
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/therealbat/5aae51af.jpg)
Lets try this way then. ::)
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I cant turn the tv so I sprained my neck. It's just NOT acceptable but we all swallow it. Well I do. (don't go there)
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I cant turn the tv so I sprained my neck. It's just NOT acceptable but we all swallow it. Well I do. (don't go there)
Some good info in them sideways pics.... :D
OH NO, i'm not touching that one... :D :D :D
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but we all swallow it. Well I do
..okaaay........
..is there a "Like" button around here??
..lmfao!...
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I didn't touch that one...
HEre is the "like button" here...... :-*
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:D :D :D
Seriously, you guys are killing me :D
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I knew it...
Egg Bottle Experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxJn_1GMYk#)
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:o Now that was some serious sucking.. :o ::) :D
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YUP! Just sitting here... Suckin' eggs.
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You like videos, zombie!?
I've got one from our friends behind the iron curtain: Test burning of gasolines, ethanol and E40 (ТеÑÑ‚ бензинов, Ñтанола и Е40) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al0JOgpeK-k#ws)
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That is a very interesting video. Let's assume it is TRUE, and CORRECT. (Most likely is)
The difference between gasolines is something I have been posting for the reasons we SEE here. Better gas burns cleaner.
The one I do NOT understand is Bio Eth. Eth. is distilled from almost anything, and is always the same regardless of the Source material. Perhaps the Bio eth is Bio diesel, and Eth?
The main focus is how clean it burns. That has not been debated on this thread. The focus is on the damaging or corrosive nature of Eth.
I FIRMLY believe Eth. is a MUCH better fuel source but parts of the world are not prepared to use it as a regular fuel base. I believe resin based fuel system components will replace the metal/rubber compounds we use today, and in that case Eth will reign supreme. Till then most of us are having to deal with force feeding, and costly repairs.
Thanks for posting the vid tho... It helps to "clear the air"
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Perhaps the Bio eth is Bio diesel, and Eth?
Impossible. Fuel for otto engine and diesel engines don't mix well. The first need a high octane rating, the second a high cetane rating.
Ethanol is pure C2H5OH, Biodiesel some C16-18 (much longer molecule).
Beeing a simple and well defined molecule, Ethanol isn't difficult to burn clean.
BTW: first synthesis of Ethanol by Abu Bakr Mohammed Ibn Zakaria al-Razi ~900 a.d.
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So what are THEY calling "bio diesel"?
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I meant "Bio Ethanol".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel)
I found it anyway. I don't understand one thing. Wait yeah I do... Bio eth. is a way to label Eth that has more impurities. Same as Regular gas vs Premium. It's amazing what a tangled web we live in.
Then they tell us the earth is round on top of it all... When do the lies stop...
Wasn't it some of your pals that stated regular gas is every bit as "pure" as premium, and anything else is a waste of time/money?
I forgot to cut paste your vid...
Test burning of gasolines, ethanol and E40 (ТеÑÑ‚ бензинов, Ñтанола и Е40)
This is what cheap (ie: regular) gas does inside your engine. The link just fell in my lap
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Re: This is what Ethanol does to rubber...
This is the topic. Not how clean it burns. Nobody argued Ethanol doesn't burn clean.
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Now THAT is an oversimplified and misleading demonstration of fuel cleanliness video.
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Now THAT is an oversimplified and misleading demonstration of fuel cleanliness video.
Oversimplified perhaps... Even I understood the point.
Misleading in what sense? Even different grades of Paraffin have varying amounts of "leftovers" not removed during processing (and will show similar results). I am tempted to try it at home to show my customers that insist on using cheaper "pump" gas in their trailer boats.
Engines are easier to maintain if you use the best products you can obtain.
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....i GOTTA stop reading this thread.........
:-*
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I thought it died of natural causes. Seems to have Zombified...
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"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic." cool...
I did consider, and figure this is the best place for this post. One of you were talking about cvk carbs, and I suggested checking the diaphragm. I said I have spares because they swell from Ethanol but they do gas out in a few days, and return to normal. Usually I get about a month before I feel a few mph missing, and slower throttle response. This goes for ALL cvk carbs that do NOT have an appended part # denoting Ethanol proof.
These are the same slide except the currently swollen one just came out. I'll take a pict of it again in a day or so to show you how it looks new once the Eth evaporates. Cool...
(http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj492/zombiemaking/09-02-12_1520.jpg)
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Oh yeah... The one beside it has been thru this several times. They both have.
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These are the same slide except the currently swollen one just came out.
The right one could be from my 2002 Doodo - because it's running with 35% ethanol, far beyond its specification.
Too, I have some power loss, mostly because I refused to adjust jet sizes and the engine is running lean. But fuel consumption stays unchanged!
Our current fuel prices: E85: 1.059€/litre, E10 1.729, E5 1.769, premium 1.809
Since April 2011 I've saved some bucks adding 1/3 E85 to 2/3 E10.
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Ahhhh! You've been waiting my friend... Quickly now. "The games afoot!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buE_jLEZrf4&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buE_jLEZrf4&feature=related)
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I boat and I boat a lot. That said I never had a problem, thanks to Yamaha being proactive and forcing me to purchase and install a 2nd water/fuel seperator that filtes things down to 10 microns.
Drop by any marina or just go onto any boating forum (thehulltruth.com) and look around at what this crap has done to the marine industry alone.
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Doesn't filter ethanol... And ethanol is everywhere. All the gas stations in my area have up to 10% ethanol in the gas. Nothing I can do about it.
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All the gas stations in my area have up to 10% ethanol in the gas. Nothing I can do about it.
I did this....
1. Put ethanol in a large container, around 75-80 percent full. I used a one gallon glass bottle before as a first experiment.
2. Pour in around 10-15 percent water.
3. Stir or shake. This process will make ethanol and water mix together because water and ethanol mixes.
4. The water/ethanol mixture will separate and sink at the bottom of the now pure gasoline.
5. Siphon or pump out the pure gasoline up to just a little above the water/ethanol level.