KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: Cortez on January 10, 2012, 09:50:04 AM
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I started this thread just to try and figure out the differences between the "old" and "new"
variator types in the Downtown between the 2010 and 2012 models.
As far as I've figured out myself, the old variator type is marked 'LEA7'
and the new one 'LGE5'. As the forum user 'juanpauk' staded in another thread,
the difference should be in the roller weight ramps, the newer ones being shorter.
This should result in higher initial revs when you open the throttle up all the way,
and possibly higher cruising revs at lower speeds. This mod is supposedly made to
get rid of some of the vibrations at lower revs.
This newer design is also supposedly used in the People GT300i from day one, and I
can confirm from my test rides of the both that the People GT300i has better acceleration
up to 60mph (by about a second, both bikes stock) even if it's rated about 2hp less.
What I'm trying to figure out is if the the difference can be identified by just riding
the scooter and looking at the revs it will start at at wide open throttle. As we all know, the
"older" type will run at 6000rpm (give or take 50-100) at WOT, and I've seen a video that
suggests the newer type will rev some 500rpm faster.
This is the video I'm talking about:
http://youtu.be/g2a1vHOB0bc (http://youtu.be/g2a1vHOB0bc)
You can clearly see on a few occasions that the revs will rise to 6500rpms, and the owner says his scooter is stock and that
it'll do 60mph in about 9 seconds. The older DTs take 10,5 to 11 seconds.
To get 6500 rpms at WOT on the older type of CVT, you'd have to swap the stock 15.5gr weights with Dr Pulley 14gr sliders
as TANWare found out and wrote about in a few of his threads.
It would be very nice if we were able to confirm (or find out by VIN number) somehow WHEN this change appeared so
owners would know what parts they have in their scoots. Obviously, doing the 14gr slider mod on the newer CVT type
may result in too much revs through the range, and 15gr might be a wiser choice.
There's also 2 different mallosi aftermarket variators probably because of the same issue, and supposedly you can't fit
both of them but need to find out which fits.
I was wondering if anyone can confirm which part is different from this diagram I got.
These 2 pages are from the same parts catalogue (model number SK60AF) but look the same to me:
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2006/kymcodowntownabsdrivepu.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/kymcodowntownabsdrivepu.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2006/kymcodowntownabsdrivepu.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/kymcodowntownabsdrivepu.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
After we figure this out.. maybe we can figure out how to get full 32-33hp out of the 29-30hp models. ;D
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I know with the LEA7 in the 2011 DT300i the sliders are needed. It very well could be with the new design the 6,500 rpm is already built in so you are good to go. It would be a smart move on Kymco's part to use the full capability of the bike. I don't know though if this will provide a lowr RPM at speed. I have heard the 20x12 sliders do not work with the other variator but as pointed out they may not be needed.
The other issue is the spanish SuperDink has the 32 HP engine. Guess you have to get the bike and try it out but I think you can see the "LEA7" stamped on the bike.................
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Yuo can apreciate the difference (ramps space) on these two videos. and I am pretty sure you can not swap them that is why malossi has two versions of it.
LEA7
cambiar guÃas (mazas) deslizantes rampa variador, Dr Pulley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uufblt86Wr4#ws)
LGE5 (towards the end of the video)
Kymco Superdink 300i Mantenimiento Variador-Embrague 1.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy52eImByhs#)
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@Cortez
Parts 22110 and 22300 are different from one model to the other, the rest is the same
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I know with the LEA7 in the 2011 DT300i the sliders are needed. It very well could be with the new design the 6,500 rpm is already built in so you are good to go. It would be a smart move on Kymco's part to use the full capability of the bike. I don't know though if this will provide a lowr RPM at speed. I have heard the 20x12 sliders do not work with the other variator but as pointed out they may not be needed.
The other issue is the spanish SuperDink has the 32 HP engine. Guess you have to get the bike and try it out but I think you can see the "LEA7" stamped on the bike.................
Dr Pulley actually confirmed that BOTH variators accept the same 20x12 sliders, so there's no issues there.
They probably just dropped the rollers from 15.5 to 15g but are still the normal round kind. Even with the
15-16gr sliders the new CVT would probably benefit from the upgrade, lowering the revs at higher speeds and
probably even increasing the top speed.
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Cool, nice videos.
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Yeh, I have the upgraded one and my rev counter will no go further than 7800 no matter what, I know that mine is 29HP not sure if the HP affects the revs (not that technical)
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Yeh, I have the upgraded one and my rev counter will no go further than 7800 no matter what, I know that mine is 29HP not sure if the HP affects the revs (not that technical)
Nah, it doesn't, the one I had for a test ride was the older 2010 model, and I had it rev to 8700rpm once.
You can probably "fix" that with the proper Dr Pulley sliders.. forget about standard round rollers.
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No amount of customization will change the rpm controlled by the ECU. I've manage 8000rpm on a down slope max out at 90mph and that's it and more. I've even swap the original LGE5 with LEA7 variator and the performance are no where near acceptable. From 40km/h the scooter struggle badly to 90km/h. Rpm struggle from 4500rpm and increase slowly to 5500rpm-6000rpm at around 90km/h if i remember correctly. In other words pre 2012 and 2012 model power and delivery with LEA7 variator are worlds apart in performance.
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Ok, so you are saying the performance is better with the LGE5's over the original LEA7? If so I have a suggestion. That is if the LGE5 uses the same stock 23x12 15.5gr rollers (22.5mm is the stock replacement tolerance).
That is to use the DR. Pulley 20x12 16gr sliders. While this might slightly raise low speed RPM the higher weight and ramp profile of the sliders could reduce high speed and cruise RPM.................
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Then comes the effect of power cut @ 7800rpm.
I managed to go pass the 7800rpm down slope at 8000rpm @ 90mph(144km/h)
I want the original 8500rpm limit!
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No amount of customization will change the rpm controlled by the ECU. I've manage 8000rpm on a down slope max out at 90mph and that's it and more. I've even swap the original LGE5 with LEA7 variator and the performance are no where near acceptable. From 40km/h the scooter struggle badly to 90km/h. Rpm struggle from 4500rpm and increase slowly to 5500rpm-6000rpm at around 90km/h if i remember correctly. In other words pre 2012 and 2012 model power and delivery with LEA7 variator are worlds apart in performance.
That's interesting.
The 2010 test bike I tried would top out at 8700 rpms, and I've seen 8500 on mine, and
neither did what you described above.
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Then comes the effect of power cut @ 7800rpm.
I managed to go pass the 7800rpm down slope at 8000rpm @ 90mph(144km/h)
I want the original 8500rpm limit!
Power cut @7800 ? What are we talking about here exactly?
The bike has it's maximum power output at 8000.
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In case you do not already know.
Model production from july 2011 onwards with revise full stand and added hazard light option are improved version with lower power and rpm cut @ 7750rpm.
Who would have known an improved version are performing worst off than pre 2012 model.
This should be the official spec circulating around the web for the 2012 model from the Taiwan site.
Then again, for the American or European market may vary but i suspect it should be the same lower powered model as to meet the strict Euro emission standard.
http://www.kymco.com.tw/products/newProduct2010/NIKITA300/standard.html (http://www.kymco.com.tw/products/newProduct2010/NIKITA300/standard.html)
Scroll all the way down though in chinese you should be able to spot 28ps/7750
Torque 6.7/6500
Those scoot that you tested that are ealier than july 2011 do not count as they are a totally different comparison.
Hope this helps, thanks.
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Yeah, thanks, did not see that.. but I've also ridden a 2012 DT300 and it sure did rev over 8000 without a problem.
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That is the Nikita 300, the DT 300i Seems to be 2 versions one with ABS and one without. They both are 29HP versions but for 2012 looks like only available in white.........…
http://www.kymco.com/product/specification.asp?MotorCTID=AA22D5F4-3FB4-4823-8486-D60301F4D49B (http://www.kymco.com/product/specification.asp?MotorCTID=AA22D5F4-3FB4-4823-8486-D60301F4D49B)
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Where can I locate the LGE5 to be on the bike?
Is it also safe to assume my 2013 has the LGE5?
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Where can I locate the LGE5 to be on the bike?
Is it also safe to assume my 2013 has the LGE5?
LGE5 is actually the People 300, so only the variator in newer DT's has that mark, and yes,
it's 100% you got that one in a 2013, even if it's a carry over from 2012.
You can tell by full throttle acceleration revs too, if it's over 6000 at WOT it's LGE5, if it's
5500-5600, it's not.
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LGE5 is actually the People 300, so only the variator in newer DT's has that mark, and yes,
it's 100% you got that one in a 2013, even if it's a carry over from 2012.
You can tell by full throttle acceleration revs too, if it's over 6000 at WOT it's LGE5, if it's
5500-5600, it's not.
Thanks, will try the WOT rev level tomorrow.
Currently, I am getting max speed indicated by the speedo to be just under 130km/h at around 8800rpm.
What will different roller weights do if I go lighter or heavier than stock?
And what is the stock roller weight for my DT 200?
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Thanks, will try the WOT rev level tomorrow.
Currently, I am getting max speed indicated by the speedo to be just under 130km/h at around 8800rpm.
What will different roller weights do if I go lighter or heavier than stock?
And what is the stock roller weight for my DT 200?
Um, we're talking about the DT300 here.
Forget the 6000+ revs, the variator differences were on the 300 only.
You can use 10% lighter then stock (no idea about the size and weight on the 200) Dr Pulley sliders
for better acceleration and hopefully same top speed at lower revs.
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Cool,
Will look into that.
But I have read somewhere that the DT200 has a slight change in the variator dept to match the 205cc motor better as the pre-2013 bikes (which shared the DT300 variator) has shuddering upon take off.
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Shuddering at take-off comes from the clutch, not the variator, and I've had that occasionally on both my Kymco
scooters depending on weather and humidity. Easy fix, pull in both brakes, open up the throttle, let go of the
brakes slightly so the scoot just barely starts moving, don't do it for longer then a second or two.
Shuddering gone.
I must have written this at least 30 times all over the subforums here.
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Hi
I have a 2011 may DT, so acc. to this, it is the stronger model.
I have tried a 14gr and 15gr. dr. pulley, and I will try a 16gr. 14gr was awfully light. The 15gr was better, almost good. I excpect the perfect affect with 16gr...
Is there anybody using 16gr???
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Hi
I have a 2011 may DT, so acc. to this, it is the stronger model.
I have tried a 14gr and 15gr. dr. pulley, and I will try a 16gr. 14gr was awfully light. The 15gr was better, almost good. I excpect the perfect affect with 16gr...
Is there anybody using 16gr???
Considering the stock rollers are 15.5gr, using 16gr Sliders would get rid of the acceleration boost you get from them,
so I don't see the point of doing it.
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Shuddering at take-off comes from the clutch, not the variator, and I've had that occasionally on both my Kymco
scooters depending on weather and humidity. Easy fix, pull in both brakes, open up the throttle, let go of the
brakes slightly so the scoot just barely starts moving, don't do it for longer then a second or two.
Shuddering gone.
I must have written this at least 30 times all over the subforums here.
I must have missed those posts.
What does that do? Deglaze the 3 clutch pads?
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I must have missed those posts.
Most of those was in the Agility 125 forums, that thing needed the treatment often
if you ride in all weather.
What does that do? Deglaze the 3 clutch pads?
Yeah.
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Considering the stock rollers are 15.5gr, using 16gr Sliders would get rid of the acceleration boost you get from them,
so I don't see the point of doing it.
According to the changes 14 to 15gr, the 16gr is the best solution. If it was a tendency...
The 14gr was awful really for me... It worth 40euros to try the 16gr...
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there is two sizes in variators , I have a lea7-eoo variator and when I was doing some mods I ordered a ramp and got a lge5-eoo ramp by mistake , and it is bigger by 1/4 inch ,so it will not fit, my variator looks like a tight fit ,. so I did not order a lge5-eoo, variator, to see if it would fit,. my scooter was built in april 2012 delivered to me june 26 2012,. 300i downtown,. I notice that the boss drive is different two and the pulley sub assembly is different too. , and I see the price for the belt is listed too #23100 lea7-eo1 is $98.55, at powersportswarehouse.com
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Considering the stock rollers are 15.5gr, using 16gr Sliders would get rid of the acceleration boost you get from them,
so I don't see the point of doing it.
One more thing: I prefer the highend rpm boost 6200 to 7800... In that range there is real acceleration...
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One question: Are the two kind variators (LEA and LGE) use the same kind of belt?? Or have we two different sized belts?
I know 1004x25,4mm size.
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Dear Adept
I have an answer for you :D :D :D :D :D
So according to the malossi.com webshop both modell (SK60, SK60A) has the same belt. http://www.malossistore.co.uk/Prodotto.aspx?type=M&MM=MO/KYDO30012&C=6115277 (http://www.malossistore.co.uk/Prodotto.aspx?type=M&MM=MO/KYDO30012&C=6115277)
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Hi there ,I think i have got the new ,improved variator , as i have a relatively fast 0 to 100 km/h ,and at WOT the rpm goes easily to 8000 and sometimes 8200 at first and then stabilizes to about 7000rpm and 6000rpm
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Next Step of my experiment :)
I have changed my belt to a Malossi. I noticed a little dragging after startup.
After many tries, I put back all the 15gr rollers (gave up the mixing). With the new belt, the 15gr roller is the perfect...
The conclusion: all the parts are important (belt, clutch, variator, rollers). They affect each other more than I tought.
One more thing. Mixing roller weights is cause faster wearing. I think, bacause half of the rollers (4pieces) wearing the pressure of the torque.
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RPM/Power out put, and HP are all completely different. The HP is built into the combination of components used in the intake/combustion/exhaust sections of the engine. Torque is also created by the same components but is controlled by the CVT.
You will hear all sorts of terms but Available torque is the bottom line. It is the available torque number that determines the maximum load bearing of the engine. You can make 650HP at 8K rpm or at 3.5K rpm. It makes no difference.
What is important to scooter owners is exactly where in the rpm range the most HP is produced. That is the entire reason for modifying variators, and clutches. You want the variator/control pulley to hold open until the maximum hp range or at least fall back to higher gearing until max hp is reached. That way your cruise is comfortable, and the bike has more gearing left for power passing.
It is different in race scooters where we leave the clutch unable to engage until MAX hp is reached. Then the bike takes off like a rocket because max hp, and max torque are delivered to the rear wheel at the same time.
You can stiffen up your fly springs on a 300cc scoot but most guys that own them are more into cruising so the CVT is set up softer allowing lower rpm closing of the pulleys. You never see GoldWings at the drag strip but they can be made to fly. Same for the 250/300/500 Kymcos. Stiffer clutch springs can be made/found to allow more torque to the wheel. All the variator does is determine the rpm/gear ratio at any given point. It has NOTHING to do w/ HP. If you want a stronger feeling 300 add a 1/4" shim under the Control spring. That pre loads the rear pulley to hold a taller gear longer.
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just fitted dr pulley 14gr, when I looked at both parts of the variator the ramp part was LGE5 whilst the fixed part was LEA7!!
does anyone have any idea why this is?
the dt is a 2012 and I'm its second owner.
cheers,
Don.
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just fitted dr pulley 14gr, when I looked at both parts of the variator the ramp part was LGE5 whilst the fixed part was LEA7!!
does anyone have any idea why this is?
the dt is a 2012 and I'm its second owner.
cheers,
Don.
Oops, that is interesting...
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what is the red line on our scooter 300i DT. there is no marking on my rpm. dial
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I recently discovered LEA7 written on the exhaust muffler under the plastic cover.
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Just put the dr. pulley 15.5g sliders on my dt300, so im going to share my two cents. English was never easy for me so please bare with me.
In terms of transmission setting I have, everything is stock, no other modification except for this slider, ODO shows 9310 miles.
On my 2013 Jan. model, I got LGE5 version of Variator and Ramp Plate while the drive pulley face plate is LEA7 version.
--- First impression ---
So far, I think 15.5g slider's reaction is similar to stock 15.5g roller in low speeds, however, in higher speed (70mph+) area, it performs as I expected (and better than stock rollers).
--- Comparison, stock ---
With the stock roller, 0-70 mph is easy, but 70-80 needs a little bit more push, not to mention 80+ will need more push to reach.
If I carry another passenger, 80mph is about my top speed.
--- Comparison, Dr. Pulley ---
With 15.5g slider, 0-70 is easy as well, but I have noticed slightly higher rpm compared to the stock roller.
70-80 is easy, and as I wanted, 80+ is a lot easier to reach because the engine revs up easily and smoothly.
Something impressed me is that even with other passenger, the bike gives you a feel like she can handle it without struggling.
--- Personal thoughts ---
I ride on CA autobahn for 60 miles per day, 7 days per week, with many two up riding chances.
It is critical for me be able to obtain enough speed with some reserved speed so I won't get hit from behind by other crazy drivers.
So far I'm happy with the slider. You won't get violent take off power as those lighter sliders may give you, but for freeway cruising, it's perfect.
It is good to cruise at 80 mph because the vibration is a lot less than before, plus, I can easily go up to 95 mph in case I need that power/speed, even with another passenger!
Money well spent!