KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => zx50 => Topic started by: sidthesloth on June 06, 2011, 09:40:42 AM
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G'day all, engine has started rattling at idle and, to be honest, I didn't pick it for what it was, the variator slide bushes chewed and gone. I now think that increasing the power is taking it's toll on the tranny. The belt face of the variator is pitted badly and the clutch pulley faces are also pitted but not as bad. Does anyone have recommendations for a cvt upgrade that will last? I will post some pics of the variator soon as I can.
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My Agility seems to get a rattle noise when riding, I thought it was maybe the rollers rattling about or the ramp plate on the variator. Sure I never had it before I upgraded to the race variator a few months ago. My old stock variator was on bad shape anyway, all groved and worn, did 12,500km on it. I know my variator is ok cos I checked it last week. Def got a intermittent rattle noise from some part of the engine or tranny tho, no real idea what it is. Waiting for a new clutch cos mine is in bad shape so see if that helps the rattle too. Been bugging me for weeks now to find what it is.
What variator do you use?
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I have been using a race variator from scooter assassins for about a year now. The slides wore out a couple of months ago, so I bought a new one, I was happy with the first one. This one is stuffed after only a couple of months.
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Was it the gy6 clone variator u fitted? Thats the one I got from Scooter Assassins, been using it a few months now, seems fine still tho cos I checked it last week. Noticed the ramp plate was not as tight tho as on my stock variator. Still if yours is gone after a few months then thats no good, ask for a free replacement off them?
Now you got me worried about the build quality of my own variator :'(
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It was listed as a race variator, mine is not a gy6, it is a 2 stroke. The same unit is listed for different models, may have different size inner bush or outer diameter. I is not the variator that fails, but the slide bushes, they are plastic. Next time you take your variator out, can you post some pics of the ramp plate and bushes please?
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No probs, will do post pics when I can. Fitting new clutch soon as my 1000rpm spring arrives so will do it then. Here is the one I got in my scooter, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RACE-VARIATOR-GY6-50-KYMCO-BAOTIAN-LIFAN-Chinese-/300540989339?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item45f9a38f9b (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RACE-VARIATOR-GY6-50-KYMCO-BAOTIAN-LIFAN-Chinese-/300540989339?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item45f9a38f9b)
Does it looks similair? I found the plastic guides were not as good as on my stock one and also the hole in the centre of the ramp plate seems very slightly too big, def bigger than my stock one but then that was so tight on that I could hardly get it off so think I had probs with it anyway. Cos ramp plate seems a little loose to me I thought that is maybe where my rattle comes from.
Will post pics soon as I get my spring.
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G'dy streido, that link you posted looks like a stock replacement, but they do list it as a race variator with modified ramp plate.
I tried to post a pic of mine, but it seems the upload folder is full.
Here is a link to the one I bought
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RACE-VARIATOR-KYMCO-ZX50-ZX-Fever-50-Fever-II-50-/400202207211?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d2de90feb (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RACE-VARIATOR-KYMCO-ZX50-ZX-Fever-50-Fever-II-50-/400202207211?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d2de90feb)
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Yeah sid it does look stockish but it is def better cos my top speed improved probably 5-8mph and my acceleration is now much smoother and has no flat spots, my stock had bad flat spot from around 27-32mph. Im pretty happy with it, mayne upgrade to a named variator once I need to replace it, just wanted to see how better a race variator was before I put up the cash for a malossi or similair.
Thinking last night, im going to try adapt my stock ramp plate to fit the race variator. The one that came with it has crap plastic guides on it that just feel and look cheap. I take it the ramp plate is meant to move freely on the spindle in the crankcase? My stock plate was quite tight and hardly came off, the centre hole seemed too small, took about 10mins to pull it off! The new one that came with my race variator is a little tiny bit too loose, in my opinion. Plan to very slightly widen the centre hole on my stock plate at weekend and then try that, hope between this and my new clutch the rattle noise stops.
I dont think my problem is serious but i'd rather be sure what it is so I dont need to worry.
Still say if your variator is bad after a couple of months they should send you a free replacement, why dont you email them and ask, must be worth a try?
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Maybe your ramp plate is too loose and the cause of your rattles. I have emailed him to see what his reply is, but I think it is just a cheap variator and I have increased the engine capacity. Will see what he says, but either way, I need some new bits. It would seem that now is the time to spend a few dollars. The scoot is not my only transport, but where I work I don't like taking the car there or the bikes, that is why I took on the scoot when Mrs. Sid had moved up to a bike.
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Yeah sid im hoping that is where my rattle comes from, prob going to try sliders too instead of rollers but skint so need to wait till payday next month now.
Out of interest, how long should a variator last do you think? With our being no brand types do you think the named make race variators will last much longer?
I really fancy a malossi multivar but the prices are a joke 2.5x the price of the one I got already!
Let us know if you find the prob on yours, i'll see how mine goes after I fit my clutch and adapt my ramp plate.
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The first one I bought lasted nearly a year, the variator isn't the problem in itself, it is the plastic bushes. Brass bushes would be preferable, but in doing that you up the price. My current variator only lasted a couple of months, I'm not happy about that but, that is the joy of buying cheap parts. I guess a year should be acceptable for a cheap one.
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I just went out and tried my new variator on my stock crank. The ramp plate is a close fit but not tight, it will rock on the shaft.
Is your variator a snug fit on your sleeve (drive boss)? Also, when you tighten the nut that holds the variator on, does that hold the ramp plate back against the shoulder of the shaft? If not, that would be the source of your rattle, you may need to place a shim behind the ramp plate or between the ramp plate and sleeve or a washer between the sleeve and drive face to keep things tight. If the variator is snug on the sleeve, with the plastic bushes in place, that should centre the ramp plate anyway and the nut should hold it all together. Hope I explained that ok.
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Will need to check at the weekend when I do my clutch, if scooter assassins every deliver my 1000rpm spring. The old stock ramp plate was solid, had no play at all, would not slide up and down on crank, could hardly get it off. Had to spend ages teasing it off by waggling it, almost gave up and was going to cut it off, but I got it in the end without doing that. My new variator fits snug on the boss and has no extra looseness, seems ok, sure its my ramp plate now. Will try your advice of a shim or washer behind it if it feels loose when I tighten my variator up, if I can get my fingers in to check. Its the actual centre hole that to me seems maybe a half mm or so too large for the crank, maybe its meant to be like that tho? Going to drill my stock hole a touch bigger and try that at the weekend anyway.
I got my scoot 2nd hand, done about 11,000km then I changed to the variator I posted, sure the stock one had been the original so had lasted 3yrs exactly when I got it. Was a bit worn and grooved but still worked ok. The stock plate on my old stock variator has plastic bushes too, do the more expensive ones have brass then?
Dont see much point in splashing out now for a good malossi etc unless I was getting a good 3-4yrs out of it at least, will just stick to the cheapo ones prob for now.
Surely you can just buy new bushes for a few quid instead of having to get a whole new variator?
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No, they don't have brass bushes, that was just a thought. When you try to see if the ramp plate is held tight, take off the variator and rollers and put the ramp plate on, then the sleeve and drive face, tighten the nut and see if the ramp plate is held tight, if not then your drive boss would be a little short.
Yes, you can buy the bushes for the variators for only a few dollars.
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Think my boss is ok cos I compared it to my original collared boss before I fitted it and it was same length etc. I really think my rattle is off my ramp plate or rollers and the more I think about it, the surer I am. So its probably something altogether completely different lol.
So just to clarify, when the variator moves in and lifts the belt up the face, the ramp plate would not move anyway due to the boss stopping it? Correct? So after I tighten up my variator nut I should be able to move the variator out by pulling it, but the ramp plate will not move? Or it shouldnt anyway?
Will check it out at the weekend, will have clutch out anyway so can take belt off and feel around behind the variator then. Thanks Sid. Hope you get you rattle sorted too with new bushes.
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If it is all fitted correctly, the ramp plate won't rattle, it will be held tight by the boss.
My rattle is sorted, I put the new bushes on the old variator and put that back in.
Am now looking for some a little more robust. Can't seem to find anything though.
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HEy sid, i sent you an email also but the zx belt is 29 inches around.(you have the correct # for it tho)...(i also believe they are 729*18.5*28)
I cant find me old s9 belt but the pack on the new one says PL30504(748*18*28). I can take the cvt cover off if you need me to.. (need to put cover gasket back on anyway...lol)
Let me know if you need other measurements or ?. Hope this helped some anyway...lol
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Nah mate, don't go pulling it apart, we'll get the info as people replace their belts. I'm still running the speedo off the dial, my belt is down to 15mm wide, a new belt should give her a bit of a kick in the pants. :)
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I'd love to knw how your doing that??? running the speedo off the dial that is......
she's hard to 50 will pull to 55. a good 55mph
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Maybe i should add that the speed is gps speed..(with the larger tire, my speedo fell in line with the gps on my cell phone.)(speedo changed 5mph that day with the 120/70)
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I am running a 120/70-12 on the front and still way out. I get the needle down to the oil can. The last time I had a good down hill run I backed of because the engine sounded like it was over revving. Don't want to blow her up. It is only now that I see the condition of the belt, I know why.
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Replaced my worn belt with a new stock one, 23100-KCX-9000. I have been running 1,000 torque spring, 2,000 fly springs and 8 gram Dr.Pulley sliders. After putting the new belt in, the initial takeoff felt good, but soon evaporated, jumped straight up through the "gears". I don't have a tacho, yet, but at cruising around town the engine speed sounds to be down a quite a bit compared to what it was. My thinking was either a stiffer torque spring or lighter rollers (sliders). My only option at hand is 5gram or 6 gram rollers (cheapies) or 6 gram Dr. Pulley sliders. I put in the 6 gram sliders, went for a ride, take off is a little better, but still jumps up through the "gears" too soon. Any ideas? With the 6 gram sliders I am starting to lose the cruise for engine speed, round town cruising, engine speed is up higher.
On a side note, with the 8 gram sliders, I still wasn't using the full range of the variator, so I might put my 732 belt on for a try in a couple of days.
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Hey sid,Have you ever re greased your t.d?
That sure helped mine out... ;) Wonder if 7.5 would be a good set?
I hope to try some 8.5's today myself... :D You can mix for a test, maybe try 3 8's, 3 6's to get 7g.....
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Try a 1500 or 2000 torque spring maybe? I plan try that on mine soon to see how it does.
Take it on your new belt you tried, width and length is the same as he old one?
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Oh and by the way, the rattle I had on page 1 of this thread has gone :D
I fitted a new clutch, changed my torque spring and while I was in there I decided to swap my smooth boss from Scooter Assassins I had in with my original stock boss that I had lathed off the lip on to make it smooth. Rattle gone now so was something to do with one of those things, I suspect the boss, fine now anyway.
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Yeah, I cleaned and greased it with g.p. grease, then a couple of weeks ago I did it again with h.t. grease.
With lighter sliders, I am running higher revs, but still going up through gears too soon, contradicting in itself. Yeah streido, it is the genuine belt. Maybe the 2,000 spring might be the go.
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Weird. You would think the same set up, on the exact same scooter should give the same results. ???
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New belt roughly 18mm wide, old belt 15mm, makes a big difference.
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I would've thought the wider belt would ride higher on the rear pulley? Keeping it in higher gear longer?
Going to be trial and error till you get it all running well together then I guess? Surely the 2000 torque will help a fair bit tho so you may get away with just doing that.
Raining heavy here today so i cant play at being a mechanic on mine today. Sure you will keep us posted how the 2000 works if you do fit it, I want to try that in mine.
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If I do order one, it will take a couple of weeks to arrive. Don't hold your breath.:)
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Bummer. You would think someone in Oz would realise the demand for parts there and open up a business you dont need to order from abroad. Even here theres not that many places doing tuning parts which is odd cos we got lots of scooters here. I ordere fly springs set yesterday so if I get a chance before my hols I might get mine in before you do cos im fitting the 2000 torque spring at the same time I do the flys, next weekend with any luck.
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I've yet to try the 2,000 torque spring, but you will love the fly springs. I could probably find them in Aus. but at a massive mark up.
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I'd sortof like to try one also, just to get that "launch" like the s9 has... That'll probably get the wheel up quickly.... ;)
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When I got home from work this morning I changed the weights back to the 8 gram, the 6s were just a bit too screaming for me, though the take off was better, it was not arm ripping. I have also installed the 732 belt as the kcx-9000 doesn't seem to be going to the top of the variator. After installing the belt I got a ruler and measured the distance from the outer edge of the belt to the outer edga of the rear pulley, 8mm. To me, that seems like a lot of unused pulley and loss of low down gearing. I was thinking that a longer belt would run over the top of the variator and bind on the casing, but, once the variator is fully closed the belt shouldn't run any higher. So thinking of a 748 belt. :). The next drawback I see with this is that with the variator fully closed, the belt may not pull to the bottom of the rear pulley, causing loss of top speed, always a compromise.
I have just ordered the three torque spring set from Scooter Assassins and a trail tech tacho.
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Torque springs turned up today, put in the 1,500 and took it for a small ride, it seems to go up through the range smoothly, no obvious shift points, but I don't think I am in my power band. Will see how it goes this arvo going to work.
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Was that using the 8g weights sid? I plan trying a 1500 in mine this weekend with 7.5g rollers.
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Yep, 8 gram sliders, you should be ok with 7.5. On my way to work I found that it does still have an initial shift of sorts just after take off. Might be due to the belt size, 732x18.5
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G'day All, just a small update, on Tuesday night after work I had a mongrel time trying to start the scooter, kickstart was jamming, (battery was not strong enough to start it). On wednesday, I opened the cvt and cleaned out the dust from the kickstart mechanism, this time I have tried a little light machine oil for lubing the kickstart gear shaft, (which seems to be good so far). While I was there I found some small balls in the case which I suspected to be the ramp plate slide bushes. Sure enough, they were gone, nothing left at all this time. So, after putting in the last set I had I went and ordered more from Scooter Assassins, then replaced the 1,500 torque spring with the 2,000 just to see what it is like, I thought the 8 gram sliders were a touch too heavy so this should work quite well. Since I had the clutch apart I decided to install the new clutch I got from Scooter Assassins a couple of months ago. I fitted the 2,000 fly springs that came with the clutch and put it all together. When going to work I found that the stall speed was much higher than with the older fly springs, which were also 2,000 rated. Well, by the time I got to work, 8 kilometres, there were some problems, clutch was staying engaged. I thought the springs might be broken. Thursday I stripped it again to find the springs were not broken, but one of the clutch arms was broken and the spring from that was grinding between the clutch bell and cvt cover. I will try to put up a pic of the clutch if I can. I have emailed Scooter Assassins, but am yet to hear back from them.
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OK, try to post a pic of the clutch.
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In the above pic. the spring that is alongside the clutch is ground considerably on the other side. all those pieces went through my cvt and has pitted the torque driver, had to strip it again to clean out all the bit of metal.
After all that, I am running the 732 belt with the 8 gram Dr. Pulley sliders and 2,000 torque spring ( am back to using my old clutch and fly springs) and the performance is reasonably good on the first half throttle, but I think I am due a new air filter which will help.
Did i ever mention that these scoots are frustrating?
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Hey sid, good to see you about my friend...
Yep, you did mention they were frustrating.. I TOTALLY AGREE. ;)
These scoots are driving me mad i tell you. :-\
I got a good one for you in my thread, if you want to talk about frustrating!! :D. gonna update in a few minutes with a pics.... ;)
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I haven't seen the pics yet but, man that sucks, mine pales into insignificance.
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Have been tinkering again, I have gone back to the stock OKO settings of 45 pilot jet and 107 main jet, reason being that it is hard to start when cold and running too lean in mid range, can't raise needle from bottom, with these jets, I now have the needle up to 1 notch from highest setting.
With the 2,000 torque spring, 2,000 fly springs, (which are due for replacement), I have tried doing something that I don't really agree with, I have taken out 3x8 gram sliders and put in 3x6 gram sliders. Without weighing them, that should be equivalent to 7 gram sliders. Take off is much better, to the point of considerable lightness on the front wheel, top speed has suffered a little. In the pic below, the needle is a little short of where it has been the last couple of days, it was going to the arrow. :)