KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: TANWare on May 18, 2011, 06:43:22 PM
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As the topic states; I have changed over to all synthetic oil in both the engine and in the final drive. Personally I chose to use Royal Purple. Since picking the bike up I've only got to put on 20 miles but tried to get impressions as much as possible for people here.
1.) I used to be able to give slight throttle for just under 2,000 RPM so it would not engage the clutch. Any touch of the throttle brings me well over 2,000 RPM and the clutch starts to pull.
2.) The engine ramps to revs much quicker than before at any throttle position.
3.) Low speed driving requires less throttle than before. At 25 MPH you find yourself between idle and just twisting the grip.
4.) 25% throttle has a quicker launch and stronger pull.
5.) 50% throttle may be slightly more but it hard to tell as it was pretty strong before and I only tried it once. (I just had to show up the laughing teens in the cage next to me)
6.) 0-50 feels quicker and roll on power has slightly increased.
7.) Engine breaking from 50 is not as pronounced.
8.) While easy before to walk backwards from the seat it now seems effortless.
9.) Idle shake in the mirror is down.
I have found in general it needs less throttle to get where you are going. On the highway I used to use about 15% throttle to get 5,000 RPMs and accelerate from 0 to 50MPH, Same throttle puts me about 5,200 or so, acceleration wise I get from 0 to 50 faster now. Cruising is about the same way, I find myself slightly less into the throttle.
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If I say that all of this things have nothing to do with synthetic oil, I risk being labeled as nitpicker, because this is the second thing today I do not agree about with you.
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http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBSe (http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBSe)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248265#Post2248265 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248265#Post2248265)
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no please nit pick, if these instanious changes were due to something else I need to know. I would hae to be missinforming and that is what the forum is for, discussion of the subject so we all can better understand. I am new to these types of tweaks and haven't had a new bike in 35 years, so again please................
The throttle responce and free reving seem to be the biggest change. any slight gas before brought it to 1,900 to 2000 RPM right before it would want to engage the clutch, now it goes to a minimum of 2,2000 RPM and starts pulling. Idle is still 1,600 to 1,700 and before I had the pronounced thumper vibration on the mirrors. While still a vibration there it is no where near as pronounced. This including the fact you can feel it but that could be subjective so I don't rely on feel alone.
I pay very close attention to the throttle and RPM. I have mine set to the 1/8" play at the grip. I had become very adept to the amount of twist for the 5,000 RPM mark for acceleration as that is where I get just the right amount of pull for the local highway. Now it sets itself to 5,200 or so and the pull of course is slghtly stronger. I am not saying anything here is an earth shattering difference but it is there.
Now engine compression deceleration has erducedd slightly. I used to at 50 MPH purposely slow down for a light not using the brakes where possible. at the same sections of the highway I had to let go of the throttle earlier before the light. first one I let go normal and was too fast when I got there next seven, three one way then those four on the way home is where I had to let go early.
as far as the roll while idle or off you can tell it is easier. The only way I can put it is like the feeling between being on bushings and ball bearings. Or better yet an older motorcycle with and without the chain.
Even the Dealer commented that this rides entirely different than a People 250 he has. Where the people did the CVT hunt when hitting the throttle this one is right there. He had mentioned today it felt just like being on a motorcyle as throttle responce is right there.
Now I'll agree I have only a short time to get impressions so I have to reserve them a bit, but for now I am impressed. I doubt it has added anything major, my best guess is maybe 0.5 to 1.0 HP at the reat wheels, what I didn't expect is it seems to have done so at the full power range. so if it is only 0.5 HP where I was say using throttle for 5.0 HP before now I am seeing 5.5 HP and 10% increase at those low throttle settings is quite a difference. Now again my guess is 0.5 or so as at 50% I am guessing I was asking for 10-15 HP at the wheel, the difference between 10.5 to 15.5 is not as big so the difference doesn't readily show.
Again above is purely specualtive and a best guess. We call these SWAG's here, Scientific Wild Arse Guess's................. :)
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http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBSe (http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBSe)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248265#Post2248265 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248265#Post2248265)
And I agree, I am not satified it is just because of the name "Royal Purple" This is why I need to reasearch that out a bit further. I do fully believe it is going to synthetic rather than "Dino" oils. Again I chose RP while it may not be the best it is among the best. I erpeat any good synthetic will yeild these or similar results just be sure to synthetic both the engine and final drive.
I agree too you can not use subjective impressions to advertise HP increases or otherwise, it isn't nor is this post scientific proof........
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You could spend a good while here. There are some knowledgeable people on this forum.
They do mave a motorcycle section.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com)
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I had placed an earlier post on my going to synthetic at 400 miles in my DT 300i. I won't say anything here other than what I had put in. I am using Suziki, 4-cycle synthetic racing motorcycle oil, (SP-4E), SAE 10W-40. Look it up and read the spec's on it. I note some difference but being a layman on scooters, I don't want a debate on it. Most I can say is this was serviced at a major shop and I am of course hoping for the best.
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I had placed an earlier post on my going to synthetic at 400 miles in my DT 300i. I won't say anything here other than what I had put in. I am using Suziki, 4-cycle synthetic racing motorcycle oil, (SP-4E), SAE 10W-40. Look it up and read the spec's on it. I note some difference but being a layman on scooters, I don't want a debate on it. Most I can say is this was serviced at a major shop and I am of course hoping for the best.
Did you change the final drive too synthetic sa well? That is the main reaon I started another thread as to be honest I am not sure which changes are related to which change just figured I'd do a combined post.
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No, but eventually I will.
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Conventional oil has narrowed the gap. There is not nearly as much difference between synthetic and conventional as there once was.
Synthetic will flow a little better at cold temperatures and does hold up better under high temps. It seems to not break down as fast.
As far as having an advantage in efficiency, if it did it would be hard to measure. Most of the oil companies claims are just marketing.
I have used synthetic oil in my vehicles for 20 years. Right now I have conventional oil in my scooter.
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no please nit pick, if these instanious changes were due to something else I need to know. I would hae to be missinforming and that is what the forum is for, discussion of the subject so we all can better understand. I am new to these types of tweaks and haven't had a new bike in 35 years, so again please................
I would attribute all of the above to run-in and some additional mileage on spanking new scoot.
In 2008/2009 I bought two new scoots and a car.
I remember when I first drove Agility, I swear it felt like it had 40 % of power compared to what it feels like now.
I could barely accelerate with my car when it was new. Now it has 10.000 kms on it and finally it is possible to drive it normally, especially after 5-6.000 km mark.
I would not make any connection between effects you noticed and type of oil.
I run my scoots on synthetic oil but it is overkill for most purposes. I do it just because I can get it for the price of mineral oil, so what the heck... otherwise I would use semi.
Do not fret about all these things, just change oil regularly, use good semi or full synt and that's it...
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If I say that all of this things have nothing to do with synthetic oil, I risk being labeled as nitpicker, because this is the second thing today I do not agree about with you.
I read his post.. wanted to reply something like you did.. but for some strange reason
decided not to.
I was also gonna go for 1) break-in or 2) placebo.
This has nothing to do with oil.
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I read his post.. wanted to reply something like you did.. but for some strange reason
decided not to.
I was also gonna go for 1) break-in or 2) placebo.
This has nothing to do with oil.
Definaely not placebo, I am fully aware of this with time spen on computers and modifications there. The reason for the first 720 miles I paid extremely close attetion to certain behaviours and also carefully metered my inupts etc.
I got to ride it yesterday for anotheer 60 miles and place it at interstate speeds. II got to do 2 short WOT's too. indicated 88 MPH and then 90 MPH, same setion I ran before. the first time. too many other viariables could contribute to the slight increase.
Pull from roll at 65 is slightly stronger, nothing to write home about and admitedly without actuall numbers could be percieved as a placebo effect. If there is an increase in high speed operations it is something without a dyno you really will not notice that much. Before I did this that is where I thought I would notice the differences.
Stopping on a slight grqade before the bike did not want to roll backwards on its own, through all 720 miles. Right after the Sythetic it suddenly does. Now it could be the first oil was so cheap that good Dino oil would have done the same thing. That I don't know but if your bike is not free rolling easier that it did before the first service a snythetic may be the way to go.
I did not mention the engine running smooter or quieter as, while it does now, the engine has been getting better over time. The idle mirror shake I did mention as since day one that has been the same or at least not a noticeable difference.
after the synthetic that reduced significantly in one fell swoop.
I have to stand by the throttle input as I am noticing less input for the same acceleration, we are not talking WOT here. I notice the difference big time 0-45 MPH, while still there at 45-60 MPH the increase definately declines the harder you are pushing it. I have noticed I can feather the grip to get to just 2,000 RPM when standing still but it is now tricky to hit it just soft enough.
So I am suprised as I didn't expect the changes where I see them and actually don't see them where I had expected too. In hind sight I guess once rolling at 65 MPH the wind resistance makes any minor change such as this barely if not totally unnoticable. While the increase seems to be minor, offereing little increase to WOT, At low to medium throttle power has a much more noticable effect. The problem with numbers here on a dyno is they are WOT not partial throttle so it would be hard to actually measure..............
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Definaely not placebo, I am fully aware of this with time spen on computers and modifications there. The reason for the first 720 miles I paid extremely close attetion to certain behaviours and also carefully metered my inupts etc.
I got to ride it yesterday for anotheer 60 miles and place it at interstate speeds. II got to do 2 short WOT's too. indicated 88 MPH and then 90 MPH, same setion I ran before. the first time. too many other viariables could contribute to the slight increase.
Pull from roll at 65 is slightly stronger, nothing to write home about and admitedly without actuall numbers could be percieved as a placebo effect. If there is an increase in high speed operations it is something without a dyno you really will not notice that much. Before I did this that is where I thought I would notice the differences.
Stopping on a slight grqade before the bike did not want to roll backwards on its own, through all 720 miles. Right after the Sythetic it suddenly does. Now it could be the first oil was so cheap that good Dino oil would have done the same thing. That I don't know but if your bike is not free rolling easier that it did before the first service a snythetic may be the way to go.
I did not mention the engine running smooter or quieter as, while it does now, the engine has been getting better over time. The idle mirror shake I did mention as since day one that has been the same or at least not a noticeable difference.
after the synthetic that reduced significantly in one fell swoop.
I have to stand by the throttle input as I am noticing less input for the same acceleration, we are not talking WOT here. I notice the difference big time 0-45 MPH, while still there at 45-60 MPH the increase definately declines the harder you are pushing it. I have noticed I can feather the grip to get to just 2,000 RPM when standing still but it is now tricky to hit it just soft enough.
So I am suprised as I didn't expect the changes where I see them and actually don't see them where I had expected too. In hind sight I guess once rolling at 65 MPH the wind resistance makes any minor change such as this barely if not totally unnoticable. While the increase seems to be minor, offereing little increase to WOT, At low to medium throttle power has a much more noticable effect. The problem with numbers here on a dyno is they are WOT not partial throttle so it would be hard to actually measure..............
TAN, there is no polite way about this, but no serious person will continue this discussion because none of the above can be attributed to synthetic oil, regardless of your personal experience. NHF
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TAN, there is no polite way about this, but no serious person will continue this discussion because none of the above can be attributed to synthetic oil, regardless of your personal experience. NHF
Yeah, thats right on. No way will synthetic give all the above improvements. I guess you spend the money for a higher priced oil and you want so much for it to work as some of the marketing hype says and your mind plays tricks on you (placebo effect), sorry.
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I have also noticed improved performance with synthetic oil . I do not belive it is my imagination . I truely belive synthetic oil has superior lubricity and have witnessed the improvement on several motors . Put whatever you want into your engines but please stop telling people they are ignorant , foolish , and generally insignificant because they choose to use products that you don't use unless you belive they may cause damage by using a product .
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http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep121w/ronspitstop/id44.html (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep121w/ronspitstop/id44.html)
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Synthetic vs original oil some good reading here http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_conventional_oil/index.html (http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_conventional_oil/index.html) I didn't say anything but "good reading"! Especially 5th paragraph down. I too noted a couple things different (better) when I switched over and I noted long ago on here some of the things that were bothering me. I am neither for or against I just hope the mechanic's where I had mine changed over were right.
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I am sure we could go on for months finding articles , charts and graphs to support our opinions . The point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be rude or condesending . You can express your opinion without being unpleasant .
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I am sure we could go on for months finding articles , charts and graphs to support our opinions . The point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be rude or condesending . You can express your opinion without being unpleasant .
Which one of us rude, condescending (you misspelled condescending) curmudgeons were you referring to?
I do have personal experience on this subject, having used synthetics for over 20 years and have done considerable research on the subject. I had rather post scientific studies rather than use terms like I feel, it feels like, my butt dyno tells me this, or my cousin's brother in law who worked on cars once says this.
Without real data, you are just another person with an opinion. Any way this is the internet where every one is an expert. ;D
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I am by far not an expert. I stated first out I have no scientific data, unfortunately where I did expect a change, top end, I noticed no significant change and have stated so.
The changes I can tell are not really ones there are tests for. The changes I've noted also only pertain to this bike. The design of another final drive may be that where increased lubrication for any reason has no real effect. A small engine that gains 0.5 HP, again a SWAG, at the low end may respond differently than a 1,200cc monster. There are just too many variables.
This is one reason I noted throttle position etc. While again I am no electronic instrument I had rode for 720 miles here, god know how many miles on other bikes, and my throttle input has always been reliable for the expected vehicle responce. To all of a sudden circumstantially have it change at the same time after all these years as placing in synthetic is suspect at best. Again you can have the opinion where experienced riders are wrong and I am having a placebo effect, but that is ok.
Unless geography has changed again at the same time something else is amiss. Where when on a 2 degree incline before the bike, feet up, had no roll back. my ballance is pretty good and sitting perfectly still I can feet up from a dead stop ballance the bike for at least 15 swecons usually before needing a rolling throttle. in these 15 seconds or so now the bike at that stopped incline, exact same spot, rolls backwrds instead of staying put. This is a scientific proof as incline and gravity do not lie. I should note on ceter stand at Idle I have never had real wheel creep.
Now I freely admit any, to all, of the changes could just be the first oil change to any better oil. Be that synthetic or not, my point is if you do not see these changes in your DT 300i as I have then a good synthetic may be a consideration. Again this may be subjective to the user as Dino oils are usually considered good enough, just not good enough for my personal choice.
And that is the primary point here too, it is a choice. Some would like to say synthetics are just a modern day snake oil, pun intended. Well I'll run those Cobras, Vipers and Pythons in my motor vehilces any day............................................ :)
Edit; as a side note I changed over my V65 to synthetic with no percieved difference at all. That bike I got used with 17,000 mile on it so the engine is proably worn fairly well. Also the bike has so much power already a slightly better lubrication would go unnoticed. That bike litterally has 5x or more the rear wheel HP.
I also have percieved so far this is a very civil discussion, something I am glad for as this can be a hot topic for some.........................
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I am by far an expert. I stated first out I have no scientific data, unfortunately where I did expect a change, top end, I noticed no significant change and have stated so.
Te changes I can tell are not really ones there are tests for. The changes I've noted also only pertain to this bike. The design of another final drive may be that where increased lubrication for any reason has no real effect. A small engine that gains 0.5 HP, again a SWAG, at the low end may respond differently than a 1,200cc monster. There are just too many variables.
If you go through scientific data, you will notice that no oil manufacturer ever managed to prove ANY power gain with synthetic oils that would not fit inside statistical error/margin, but many were sued and paid dear fines for claiming miracles that cannot be proven.
1200 cc "monster" would in case of such possibility show more pronounced effect/improvement because relative gain would be higher. Smaller engines would not show anything measurable.
0.5 hp gain on 300 cc would not be possible even by changing air intake and exhaust, let alone oil type.
Finally, much bigger and measurable effects would be exerted and possibly measured and proven by factors seldom discussed like a) air temperature and consequential density b) rider position/frontal area/height c) helmet shape, size and position d) tire shape and type e) gasoline composition and quality f) surface friction g) especially, altitude; than oil type.
I have yet to hear a person that paid money for vehicle maintenance that does not claim "it runs better", where in reality there is no objectively measurable or noticeable effect. Placebo and auto-suggestion are known to cure serious diseases, why not make scooters run better? 8)
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I would perfer to pay the same price, not more. I am not the more money you throw at it the better it will be type. 0.5 HP is purely speculative at the rear wheel. Again it is a SWAG and used as an example.
I thought the same way, bigger engines and more original HP the more a lube could improve the situation. I have repositioned my thoughts here though as it does not seem to increase combustion etc but internal mechanical efficiency eventually to the rear wheel. Where one vehicle then essentially bennefits further than another.
Where we have stock 21 PS there is a dyno test with mods showing that going to 27 PS at the rear wheel, so yes 0.5 HP is easilly obtainable on these machines. 26 + ps without a remap too.
Also as per my edit; I spent the more money on my V65 with no percieved advantage(s). That one was my loss, but I did try..............
Edit; agreed palcebo can do many things and I have purposely made every attempt I can to avoid this. Again this is my personal experience and IMHO. All I can say is here there are differences, while not earth shattering, that the seat of my pants can tell.
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By the way, Usually by the 1st oil change the engines are starting to loosen up some and are starting to run smoother with a feel of more power. ;)
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By the way, Usually by the 1st oil change the engines are starting to loosen up some and are starting to run smoother with a feel of more power. ;)
Fully agree, this is why I discount engine noise and smoothness. they are too easily explained away by break in. I have only noted the changes I had that were instantanious and felt, although slight, substantial enough to notice. Again these can be explained even by using a better Dino oil at the first oil change. This is why i have tried to describe the change(s) noticed too, so if another users experieince is not the same a synthetic may be something to try out. Be that for the Engine or Final Drive........
Edit; someone else tell me where they got a $1.99 a quart Dino oil that gave them the same or better noticable results, I am there to try it out too on my next change, easily replacable if I dont like it................................ :)
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Which one of us rude, condescending (you misspelled condescending) curmudgeons were you referring to?
If the shoe fits .
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off topic but; enough already, please stop this now! Name calling etc does not enhance a discussion. I am not picking on anyone but we should all be civil. Knowledge is never gained by any type of agression but will only further to entrench debated positions, it is our ability to get past that where we can all, especially myself, finally learn something.............
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TAN, there is no polite way about this, but no serious person will continue this discussion because none of the above can be attributed to synthetic oil, regardless of your personal experience. NHF
I've had the Downtown for a 2 day test ride, did about 600km on it, I've had the same 'experience' as
him just changing my jacket. No jacket = 90mph, light jacket = 85mph.
The windscreen is horrible for me (180cm/5'11") and the turbulence is among the worst I've experienced,
and the top speed is greatly affected by the wind.
I'll post a full review next week..
All in all, it's an excellent scooter, a lot more agile and responsive then I expected it to be.
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Been cold here so I am always riding with the same light jacket, haven't really had it warm enough here not too. So far this bike really only gives me one seating position so that is a constant.
The MP3 had a short wind screen and really beat me up with the wind. The reflex was about the same as the DT to me. Both of those other bikes though I only had to 60 indicated or so. I am 5'11" with a 30" inseam but I hadn't rode any other real windscreen bikes. I had always been on naked bikes before this.
The 2-3 MPH I got faster I call insignificant especially just as further breakin is the more likely reason. My surprise was the, albeit minor, sudden changes to low and midrange..............
Edit; glad to hear you got to try it out, As you can see the base of the bike is great for what it is, now like any other bike it becomes time to improve and customize for the end user.......... :)
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Been cold here so I am always riding with the same light jacket, haven't really had it warm enough here not too. So far this bike really only gives me one seating position so that is a constant.
I always ware full gear, either leathers or textile suit. I have had the road come up to meet me once in 34 years of riding. I came out with out a scratch. I have seen road rash on others that didn't use protection. It isn't worth it. I also use a hi vis suit so I can easily be seen at night.
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Tech has changed, while I would have never considered the leathers of old I do need to look into proper gear and armor. I have met the road 4x in my years so far so good and nothing more than a scratch and a few bruises.
1.) Rain on my first bike a car just cut me off and laid it down to avoid a broadside .
2.) Broadsided by a car making an illegal U turn
3.) Broadsided by a car driving at night with no lights on an unlit road, I never saw them coming.
4.) Loose pebbles on a jug handle
So yes it does happen……………..
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Back to oil! Mine is going in this afternoon for the 1000K inspection and oil change. Issue here is we still can't get oil filters. Does anyone know of an oil filter to sub for the original? K&N or what ever. I worry about doing an oil change and not change the filter.
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your dealer does not have filters?
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No. It seems as tho Kymco Canada does not have them yet. I need a source as I do my own service after the first inspection.
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Just a note here. Synthetic oil is known to make some gaskets weep oil. My Xciting started weeping around a few places after I started using full synthetic. Nothing major, just ugly and collects dust.
When I adjusted my valves, I re-installed the valve cover without using sealant on the gasket. It didn't leak untill I put in synthetic oil.
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Haven't noticed that as of yet, again haven't had it in that long................
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looking for oil filters look for hi flo filters hf566 it is the same filter as kymco,s 1541A-lea7-e00
the tinman ottawa canada
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I recall some time ago, people talking about some sort of oil that is very very espensive and is the best thing there is as far as oil for engines goes. I did say "I recall" and this was always in the back of my mind. Anyway, there are some sharp people on here and therefore, I am actually asking that question. Is there such a oil, that is "very very" expensive and the best there is? Again, I never agru a poing or though I place on here being I am a true laymen to scooters and egines etc. Ask me about photography and I can give you a up right answer to the best of my professional knowledge! I know i need some spelling lessons! Thanks.....
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I don’t think there really is such a thing, a lot of hipe etc. Mobile 1 is recommended by many. I have run Castrol Syntec on my People S 125 which has 30000K hi way on it. Runs like new yet. The dealer here uses AMSoil. I prefer something I can get along the way if I am travailing.