KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: jprestonian on February 21, 2011, 11:00:36 PM
-
We had a glorious ride on a perfect day, yesterday... until one of our six riders hit some gravel in a curve, and went into a ditch. Fortunately, he had all the gear on, and other than his pride (and his Buddy 125's previously-pristine condition), he was unhurt.
What happened is the guy was trying to ride beyond his comfort zone -- trying to keep up with the front of the pack on a winding, country road. The other five of us had ridden together in the past, and so we kinda know to watch for stragglers, and to wait for them to catch up before making any turns off the current road, etc. The trouble is, we didn't let him know that. So, maybe he was afraid of being left lost in the woods.
Do y'all know of any clubs out there that explain how group rides work, emphasizing safety and having fun over feeling any need to compete or be left behind?
.
-
Yes, if you all had let him know you'd always wait up, he would have felt more comfortable, probably.
Being at or near the back of a group, one is always subject to the ol' accordion effect. That is, even though front riders keep a nearly constant speed, small variations magnify themselves the further back in the group you are. So, you find yourself doing a lot of throttle and brake work back there.
I wouldn't want to be lost on unfamiliar roads either! And you can't blame him, being in the back trying to keep up, you don't always have time to look at street signs and landmarks etc.
-
By the way, I've heard it said, anytime there's two or more riders, it always turns into a race. I think any group should council all riders, especially new members, that this will not do. Not even a little.
-
Yes, if you all had let him know you'd always wait up, he would have felt more comfortable, probably.
Yes; we all feel responsible, since we didn't share all of what we took for granted. :(
With that in mind, I'm trying to come up with a document for group riding. So, do you know of any universally-accepted hand signals that we might use for the usual needs to communicate common riding situations?
We have a few that we use currently, but really wondering if there are ones for "Hey -- I think I might have a troubled rider behind me" or "I am fine, but I need to break off from the ride and get home to the wife." :)
.
-
And actually, this guy was #3 in a pack of 6 when he went down -- I was #6 on purpose, making sure everyone ahead of me was doing okay. I had already U-turned for this guy when he vapor-locked about 45 minutes into the ride. Fortunately, I knew the Buddy and its propensity to do this, and got him right back on the road... but by the time we got that resolved, we already had a couple of other guys coming back to check on us.
.
-
... then, when he went down, my fix for his vapor lock (unlatching his gas cap) meant he spilled about a gallon of fuel when he went down.
Can't win 'em all!
.
-
There are hand signals used for group rides that are more or less universal. Here's a few I found. When I worked at HarleyDavidson, this is similar to the sheets handed out at every demo rally.
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/group_ride.pdf (http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/group_ride.pdf)
as well as
(http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/motorcycle-group-riding-signals.jpg?)
-
Thanks! That's a big help!
I want to use universal signals as much as I can, so if someone leaves the area or comes along from elsewhere, it's not a clusterf**k. :) That was very helpful. Thanks, again!
.
-
Yeah, there's some really good material over at the MSF site. Everything from data sheets to instructional videos (albeit cheesy at times). Great information for new riders though.
-
Do y'all know of any clubs out there that explain how group rides work, emphasizing safety and having fun over feeling any need to compete or be left behind?
Yepp. Read this notice of a group ride
http://www.rfma.de/threads/4507-Sonntags-Bibbertour (http://www.rfma.de/threads/4507-Sonntags-Bibbertour)
and click on "Teilnahmebedingungen" (terms of participation).
That's common practice during registration for a ride, because in Germany a guide is liable for the unexperienced, young and weak.
-
I despise and HATE all motorcycle-club stuff. Generally, I do not like doing things in a group, motorcycle or else.
Furthermore, scooting in a pack is USA-thing: generally no such thing in Europe, or at least it is not common. There are only motorcycle groups/clubs riding together.
I used to have a "pack" of us riding together in my motorcycle days, but would not repeat that anymore (at least not with sports bikes or nakeds, maybe if I had slow custom hogs and things like that, but I would never buy them so it is just a theory).
However, common sense requires that the slowest rider is in the very front, then the second slower... all the way to the fastest rider that should be in the back.
Not vice versa.
-
I disagree Axy, common sense, to me, means that all riders ride at a pace comfortable to them and regroup when necessary OR all riders agree on a speed and keep to it.
I've never done a group ride on a scoot or a motorcycle but on bicycles we use a lot of hand signals and usually will detail the ride before we take off.
Basic rout info, any pit stops on the way, designate a guide to lead, sweep to ride the back and let it be know if the ride is going to be fast and competative or if its a "No Drop" ride and that there will be regrouping along the way.
spr0k3t, love those hand signals!
-
In group rides usually someone is designated as the tail-gunner to keep an eye out for anyone who staggers behind or has problems. Generally before a ride the group should have gone over a detailed map of the route, and alternate roads in case of a detour or traffic problems.
Here are more tips from the MSF:
Motorcycling is primarily a solo activity, but for many, riding as a group -- whether with friends on a Sunday morning ride or with an organized motorcycle rally -- is the epitome of the motorcycling experience. Here are some tips to help ensure a fun and safe group ride:
Arrive prepared. Arrive on time with a full gas tank.
Hold a riders’ meeting. Discuss things like the route, rest and fuel stops, and hand signals (see diagrams on next page). Assign a lead and sweep (tail) rider. Both should be experienced riders who are well-versed in group riding procedures. The leader should assess everyone’s riding skills and the group’s riding style.
Keep the group to a manageable size, ideally five to seven riders. If necessary, break the group into smaller sub-groups, each with a lead and sweep rider.
Ride prepared. At least one rider in each group should pack a cell phone, first-aid kit, and full tool kit, so the group is prepared for any problem that they might encounter.
Ride in formation. The staggered riding formation (see diagram below) allows a proper space cushion between motorcycles so that each rider has enough time and space to maneuver and to react to hazards. The leader rides in the left third of the lane, while the next rider stays at least one second behind in the right third of the lane; the rest of the group follows the same pattern. A single-file formation is preferred on a curvy road, under conditions of poor visibility or poor road surfaces, entering/leaving highways, or other situations where an increased space cushion or maneuvering room is needed.
Avoid side-by-side formations, as they reduce the space cushion. If you suddenly needed to swerve to avoid a hazard, you would not have room to do so. You don’t want handlebars to get entangled.
Periodically check the riders following in your rear view mirror. If you see a rider falling behind, slow down so they may catch up. If all the riders in the group use this technique, the group should be able to maintain a fairly steady speed without pressure to ride too fast to catch up.
If you’re separated from the group, don’t panic. Your group should have a pre-planned procedure in place to regroup. Don’t break the law or ride beyond your skills to catch up.
For mechanical or medical problems, use a cell phone to call for assistance as the situation warrants.
-
Here are more group riding guides for a club I'm a member of:
EZ Riders Scooter Club Riding Safety Guidelines It’s important that every EZ Riders Scooter Club rider read and understand this completely!
A group ride is normally composed of a Ride Leader (Leader) and (sometimes) a Sweeper, bringing up the rear.
Staggered (normal) formation
Normal group is done in a staggered formation. Basically, this is dividing a lane in half with each rider occupying his/her own half of the lane. It is your responsibility to ride in the half of the lane as determined by the rider in front of you. For example, if the rider in front of you is riding in the center of the right half of the lane, you would ride in the left half, the rider behind in the right, etc. If the rider in front needs to change lane halves to maintain the stagger, then you must change lane position, and so on down the line.
The Leader usually starts the stagger in the left half position. While in staggered group riding, the normal stagger distance is 1–2 seconds, and no more than a 3â€second gap, in order to maintain a tight formation and not allow traffic to interrupt and break it up. This means that you should be 2–3 seconds behind the rider who is directly in front of you and using the same half of the lane.
When coming to a stop, the group generally forms up two abreast (side by side). When the group starts off again, the rider on the left starts first.
Second rider note: One problem that occurs with staggered formation is that the second rider (to the Leader’s right), having no one in front, tends to creep up until he or she has overlapped with the Leader. This means that the Leader, when needing to dodge to the right, may hit the second rider, resulting in a disaster instead of a minor annoyance. Keep your spacing!
Singleâ€file formation (no stagger)
Riding in single file, without a stagger, allows the riders more freedom to negotiate curves and dodge obstacles while having the freedom to use the whole lane. It also allows for a more leisurely pace, with time to look at the scenery. Therefore, we will ride in a single file in these situations:
• • •
When riding on curvy, narrow, unpaved, and narrow back roads. When turning at intersections. When there is an obstruction on the side of the road, such as a person or people or (in farm country) cattle or horses.
Changes in formation (stagger to single file, and vice versa) is dictated by the Leader. Holding two fingers in a sort of Victory sign indicates a staggered formation, while the index finger pointing straight up in the air is the signal for single file riding. The only exception is that the Leader will not normally signal for single file riding when turning at intersections—this should always be done.
In single formation the normal distance between riders is increased to 3–5 seconds (and 10 seconds on unpaved roads). For safety, distance in a single file formation should not be so long that you can’t see the rider in front of you. There are two reasons for this:
1. It is much easier to negotiate around corners by using the next rider’s position to “see†further around blind curves. 2. The rider can see and pass back hand signals indicating obstacles or other information ahead.
Note that in the presence of horses and riders on the road, or to the side of the road, speed will be dropped to almost a walking pace as well as going single file. Sudden slowing for safety will be indicated by the left hand making pushing down motions, as if asking a car passing your kids to slow down. Horses can be easily spooked with resulting danger to both rider and bike. Slow bikes don’t usually spook horses.
If you feel that the group pace is too fast, then motion the bikes behind to pass until the only one left following is the Sweeper. Then ride at your own pace until the next stop, when you should inform the Leader that you are uncomfortable with the pace. The Leader will decide to either separate the ride into two groups, or go at a slower pace so that all members of the group feel secure.
Group riding is NOT a race!
Maintaining the formation
If a rider in the formation needs to pull out for any reason, the group should close up the gap and reorganize the stagger. Please do not pull off, also, unless you need to do so. The Sweeper will aid the rider who has pulled over. The next (last) rider then becomes the Sweeper of the lead group until the Sweeper returns to the group.
When turning onto another road, if the next rider back cannot be seen, either due to having traffic inâ€between, or a large enough gap in the group for any reason, the last rider in the line must wait at the turn for the next rider to show up before leaving the turn so as to signal that the route has taken a turn. This will keep the group together on the same route even though there may be unforeseen gaps in the formation.
If not all bikes are able to get through a traffic light, the riders stuck at the light should signal the riders in front by beeping their horns (two beeps), with the horn signal passed forward to the group leader. The forward riders pull over as far over to the right side of the road as possible and wait for the rest of the group. When the Sweeper is through the light, he or she signals with several short horn beeps, and that signal is forwarded ahead.
If the leader signals that the group should all pull over to the side of the road—with the left arm over the head pointing to the right—all riders should position themselves as far to the right of the shoulder as possible, while the leader’s position will not be as extreme, so the leader can have a good rear view of the riders and can more easily determine when it would be safe for the group to resume riding on the road.
Sweeper – Broken Bike
The broken bike procedure is for the entire group to pull over and try to fix the bike within 10 minutes; if the problem cannot be fixed in that time, the rest of the group carries on with the ride, asking for a volunteer to stay and support the rider with the broken bike—call for a tow, give the rider to wherever they need to go, etc. If the Sweeper volunteers, another rider will be appointed Sweeper.
Passage of Information through Signals:
During the ride, the Leader will make various hand and leg signals. These signals indicate lane changes or turns, obstacles, increasing/decreasing speed, or whether to form a stagger formation or a single line. These hand signals must be passed back through the group, from the front rider to the next rider in line. That way each rider only needs to be aware of signals from the rider directly in front of him/her rather than everyone trying to keep an eye on the Ride Leader.
• Emergency stop (most important signal): Left hand folded into a fist on top of the helmet.
• Nonâ€emergency stop: Left arm held straight out to the elbow while the rest of the arm points straight up.
• Obstacles: An outstretched left or right leg, indicating which side of the lane the obstacle is located. If you spot an obstacle in the road, immediately signal to the riders
behind you so they have the best opportunity to dodge them. Some typical obstacles that should be signaled as to where they may lie in the lane are:
sand/dirt/gravel/rocks, potholes, dead animals, road dragons (pieces of truck tire treads), vehicular debris, tar snakes (road tar repairs), etc. Remember that the riders
towards the rear in a group ride will not be able to see as much of the whole road surface as those in front due to the visual blockage of the front riders.
• Rider forgets to turn blinker off: If the rider is in FRONT of you, beep your horn twice (very short beeps), then hold your left arm straight out to the left, with your four
fingers parallel to the road and your thumb hanging down. Then open and close your fingers in time to the flashing signal.
To tell a rider BEHIND you that their blinker light is on unnecessarily, give the handle signal above, but do not beep your horn.
• Group behind must pull over to the side of the road: Left arm over the helmet, pointing to the right, repeated as often as necessary. All bikes except the Sweeper should
line up as far to the right as possible so that the Leader can more easily see the Sweeper bike when it arrives.
When stopped, the ride leader may or may not dismount to be able to see behind more easily. Other riders should either stay mounted or if they feel the need to dismount
do so only when safe to do so and immediately move to the right side of the bike if possible. Remember, dismounting and getting hit by a car will spoil the whole ride.
• Police car in area, warning approaching cyclists to slow down: Either the left fist put on top of the helmet and moved up and down or the open hand patting the top of the
helmet. If you see either of these on your dayâ€toâ€day riding, it either means a police car is coming or you’re about to go thru a speed trap.
Conclusion
Group riding can be a lot of fun if all the members are comfortable within the group. If one or more members of the group are not comfortable, then this should be discussed at the next stop so as to accommodate or correct the cause of the problem. It's very easy to take each problem and, with a little tact, to teach whomever might not have a sufficient understanding of our group riding rules.
-
I disagree Axy, common sense, to me, means that all riders ride at a pace comfortable to them and regroup when necessary OR all riders agree on a speed and keep to it.
This works very nice in ideal world (where people live in democracies, states provide social safety net to everybody and other lies).
In reality, when you put 15 or 25 guys age 25-45 on 150-200 hp motorcycles, the rules change.
For this reason, and many others I do not associate with "riders", "bikers" etc.
-
You are a good guy, JP - Every group needs a gent like yourself. Glad to hear your mate was ok.
Only 2 things I can add to the GREAT info here:
- Slowest/newest rider leads. There is no shame in this at all - It helps keep the group together. Everyone else should space out a bit through twisties. Believe it or don't, even the more advanced riders can hone their skills through choosing and keeping the best line through the curves without pushing the envelope.
- I've laid a 50cc scoot down while take a tight turn with the throttle pinned like a maniac. I learned a bit from that:
1. Get the best tires you can. On many 50cc scoots, the stock ones are rubbish, the sidewalls flex like they are made of paper.
2. The torque of the engine does effect the suspension. Avoid DRASTIC throttle changes while in a turn.
3. Trail braking! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking) Learn it, love it ;D Non-linked brakes are where it is at, curves are the best place for back brakes. Save all the traction the front has for turning.
4. Back to basics - Always enter a turn at the highest speed you'd want to take the entire turn at. Coast into the turn, at the apex roll onto the throttle to set the suspension and cruise out.
-
This works very nice in ideal world (where people live in democracies, states provide social safety net to everybody and other lies).
This can (not must!) work in real world too. But one single egoist can destroy the harmony.
I have made trips with friends where engine powers varys more than factor 10 and top speed more than 100kph. Not only once!
And we stay friends and are willing to ride together again.
-
Well, hey -- we're an informal group of riders, and most of the time, most of the riders have at least a couple of years experience with their bikes, and have been on several group rides in the past. So we've kindly forgotten that it's a good idea to go over a few things before the ride starts. It's purely our fault, but I intend to rectify it.
The riders here tend towards anarchy... e.g., they generally eschew the idea of a club, so to speak, but don't mind meeting up for the occasional ride or beers/food. We've let that anarchist tendency creep in where it really doesn't belong. A few ground rules shouldn't scare off anyone we care about scaring off, right? As I say in the preamble to the document I'm drafting, "We will assume that you do not wish to be injured or killed, nor wish to see anyone else injured or killed on our rides. Agreed? If not, please find others with whom to ride, thanks!"
.
-
JP your brain is in the right place...Just forget the PC bullcrap and call it like you see it..If you know certain riders lack skill or group decency ...put there asses at the rear behind the tailgunner.....I have seen too many rides and riders get messed up by the front guy not taking command of the group....After 47 years of riding ,anything more than a 4pack becomes work and not fun... Spring is near....I hope lol
-
I despise and HATE all motorcycle-club stuff. Generally, I do not like doing things in a group, motorcycle or else.
Furthermore, scooting in a pack is USA-thing: generally no such thing in Europe, or at least it is not common. There are only motorcycle groups/clubs riding together.
I used to have a "pack" of us riding together in my motorcycle days, but would not repeat that anymore (at least not with sports bikes or nakeds, maybe if I had slow custom hogs and things like that, but I would never buy them so it is just a theory).
However, common sense requires that the slowest rider is in the very front, then the second slower... all the way to the fastest rider that should be in the back.
Not vice versa.
I also disagree with the slow rider up front idea. I also hate the "organized club ride in formation thing" I have done hundreds of extremely fun group rides, usuelly in groups of 2-6 riders. We always ride at our own pace and regroup at intersections. If there are any riders who have not ridden with the group I make sure to brief how it will work. I always stress "ride your own pace, don't try too keep up. We will wait for you. If you fall we will come back and get a picture of your horizontal bike ;D, then we will help you pick it up". Most of my riding has been either twisty road sport riding or dual sport riding. This way the fast riders won't get bored and the slower riders are less pressured to keep up.
Sometimes someone will let their ego control their pace and end up falling. Luckily the people I ride with almost always wear good riding gear. On dual sport rides, having someone, or more than one rider fall offroad is common and part of the ride. It's rarely a big deal.
The one exception to riding in formation is when on the highway or in a congested urban environment, then it's a good way to keep everyone together.
I haven't been on a group scooter ride yet but i don't see why the same principles wouldn't apply.
-
Yeah... I don't see it as "PC," per se -- just don't want to be throwing a lot of formalities at people who already seem resistant to the very idea of such. When the temperature is 70F, and you can only get six riders to go on this kind of ride, you really don't want to be too exclusionary. ;)
.
-
If you like to group ride, fine. For me though the whole thing about biking is the freedom of it all...to go wherever you want, whenever you want, and as fast as you want, and not have to form a committee.
-
If you like to group ride, fine. For me though the whole thing about biking is the freedom of it all...to go wherever you want, whenever you want, and as fast as you want, and not have to form a committee.
Yeah, 'cause there's no way one can do both. :lol: EITHER/OR!
.
-
i am a member of the Los Angeles Scooter Group, a loose but well organized community of nearly 500 group riders. for every ride the route is mapped out, and a skill level for riders is given and emphasized, but left to each individuals best judgment. recently on a long(ish) ride (the bi annual "Twisty, Curvy" ride through some canyons) 3 riders went down in single bike accidents along the same stretch of road. no one was seriously hurt, some scoots got banged up. it's just the second incident in over two years of group rides. 2 riders were inexperienced on such a route, one rider went down trying to catch up with others to let them know a couple had gone down. a skilled rider using bad jdugement, he went down over some sand.
these are the group riding guidelines. its is a well run, well informed group imo
Group Riding:
BEFORE THE RIDE
* We have a good thread on our Message Board with general riding tips and information about training and education. Mastery of fundamental riding skills (including starting, stopping, turns and cornering, swerving, hard stops) is mandatory. Each rider is responsible for having proper licensing and insurance.
* Whether riding alone or in a group, it's important to know your limitations as a rider and to ride within your abilities. You should be familiar with the limitations of your scooter as well, including top speed, cornering, and how far you can get on a tank of gas. Your scooter should be in good operating condition and properly maintained.
* Examine the route and stops. We'll do our best to post route and destination information for each ride and provide links to maps. Consider the types and difficulty of the roads along the route. Also consider its length and the time commitment involved. Remember that at the end of a long ride, you may have to still go quite a ways to get home.
* Be sure to read the Meetup announcements carefully; they often contain important details such as route difficulty and posted speeds.
* Ask questions! You can post questions on the comment page for each ride, on the Discussion Boards, or email the Organizer of the meetup directly.
* Pre-ride preparation: Be sure to dress appropriately for the weather (check forecast before departing). Depending on the length of the ride and between destinations, you may want to bring a bottle of water or a snack. If we're heading for a coffee house or restaurant, you may want to hit an ATM before the Meetup. Bring your camera; we like pics for the Meetup site.
* Essentials: cell phone, license and insurance card, and an emergency contact number. Check your tire pressure and oil levels before departing. Tire pressure is a huge factor in safe riding (acceleration, turning and maneuvering, stopping) and fuel efficiency but many riders ignore it.
AT THE MEETUP
* Arrive at the Meetup on time and with a full tank of gas. Departures tend to be on "scooter time" because of the unpredictability of traffic in our region, but you don't want to be the last to show up, do you?
* New members should be sure to locate and introduce yourself to the Meetup Organizer. Let the Organizer know how long you've been riding and what kind of group riding experience you have.
* There will be a Ride Leader (who may not be the Meetup Organizer), who obviously rides in front and sets the pace, and a Tail Rider, who is the last rider of the group and who keeps everyone together along the route. The Ride Leader should let everyone know what the route will be and if/where there will be any stops for gas and so on along the way. If available, we will provide maps.
ON THE ROAD
* Pack Position: Newer and slower riders should ride towards the back of the group. Don't worry about falling behind; the Tail Rider will bring up the rear and the Ride Leader will pull the group over or slow down as necessary so everyone can catch up. If there's a large group with several faster and slower riders, there may be pre-arranged "catch up points" along the route and a second Leader in the middle to direct the slower group if necessary. No one will be left behind.
* Staggered Formation: On most surface streets, we will ride in a staggered formation, with the Ride Leader at the front of the left side. The second person is on the right, following at a one-second distance. The third on the left again at a one-second distance. And so on. Ideally, then, you should have a minimum two-second distance between you and the rider in front of you on your side. Some people are more comfortable on one side than the other so be sure to start from your preferred position. If everyone is in proper staggered formation, you should pay more attention to those in front of you than worrying about those in back.
* Pace: We will do our best to maintain a reasonable pace that works for all riders and scooters participating. If you feel those around you are riding faster than you like, you can signal them to pass you and move to the rear of the pack. At the next stop, let the Tail Rider know you're slowing your pace and continue. (If necessary, pull over to let others pass and then signal the Tail Rider.) Don't worry about falling behind or holding up the group; we plan for riders and scooter with varying capabilities.
* Gaps in Formation: If someone drops out of staggered formation, signals others to pass, or if a gap somehow forms, try not to change land position to fill the gap. Instead, riders in the column where the gap formed should all move up. Gaps will naturally close at stops, so don't worry about it too much on surface streets.
* Stops: We'll close up the gaps at stop lights, forming two solid columns with riders side-by-side. When the light turns green, the Ride Leader will pull ahead and we'll resume the staggered formation. At stop signs, two riders (left side and right side) may pass through together; the rider on the left will then pull ahead. At most stops, the Ride Leader will turn to check with the Tail Rider to see if everyone is still grouped together.
* Split Group: If the group is split by a red light or traffic, those behind the light should honk their horns to alert those ahead. The Ride Leader will slow the first group to allow others to catch up. If necessary, the first group will pull over to wait for the second group. If there's a pre-arranged catch-up point, the first group may proceed to that location.
* Lane Splitting: Some participants may engage in lane-splitting (riding between stopped lanes of cars) to catch up to the group. Only do this if you're comfortable doing so. If not, don't worry, we'll pull the group back together.
* Single-File: On narrow streets, rough pavement, curves and hills, we will move to a single-file formation with a minimum 2-second space between riders to allow everyone room to maneuver.
* Hand Signals: The Ride Leader may employ some basic hand signals to let everyone know of an upcoming lane change or turn. Left hand aimed down at a 45 degree angle means a left turn or lane change. Left hand raised means a right turn or lane change. Any rider may also point downwards or point outwards with their right foot to indicate a hazard in the road. (Two fingers pointed down is usually a "wave" to other riders.) Riders should mimic the hand signal if they're comfortable doing so to "pass" it back so it's communicated through the group. There are other group hand signals, but these are the ones we'll most frequently use.
* Common Courtesies: If you have to leave the group in the middle of the ride, alert the Ride Leader or Tail Rider. Don't swerve through the formation or pass other riders. If you need to change position for some reason, do it at the next stop. Don't antagonize other motorists by unnecessarily honking, swerving or gesturing.