KymcoForum.com
Scooters - Big Bore => Xciting 500 => Topic started by: clrains on August 27, 2023, 06:32:25 PM
-
Hello, new to the forum here and new to Kymco Scooters. I bought a used 2009 xciting 500i with 7000 miles. Rode it home 2 hours. No issues. Put it on my lift and gave it a full service. Plug, air filter, changed oil. News tires, new brake pads , new belt. The works. Took it out last Sunday for a day ride and she ran like a top. I was all smiles. Loving the new scooter. Last Monday went out to crank her and she would not start. I would cranks strong but won’t catch to start. Starting trying to resolve this problem. Checked spark. It’s strong. Acts like it’s not getting fuel. Pulled the injector and saw that fuel was only coming out of one of the four ports (holes) so I ordered a new injector thinking this was the problem.
While waiting for the new injector to arrive I pulled the fuel pump. Everything there looks ok.
When I remove the fuel line and cycle the key, full will pumps. Installed new injector today and still won’t start. Checked voltage at the injector and it’s producing 10+ volts.
Now I’m stumped. I don’t have a Kymco dealer anywhere close to me. Is there anyone where who has either had this happen to of can maybe offer suggestions that knows more about Kymco than I do.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Curtis.
-
Sounds like your injector is plugged with snot from bad fuel.
Reverse flush the injector. Do it yourself or take it to a shop that does EFI injectors. Post here if you want to do it yourself and I and/or others will describe the proceedure.
-
I thought it was the injector as well. I ordered a new one and installed it. It has made no difference. The bike will just crack but never start. Is it possible the new injector is also plugged up?
-
Welcome here!
First action I would set:
-jumpstart cables from a car battery to see if it starts then, if YES your battery is dead
Second:
-check the scoots sidestand switch, if this switch is faulty it cranks but does not start
Third:
- check killswitch
-
Have confirmed that the battery is good. With the side stand down. The fuel pump will not energize, when the side stand is up the fuel pump will come on. Also confirmed that the kill switch is working properly. I am beyond baffled. Is there any other “safety” switch that I’m over looking?
-
No the new injector is not plugged up. You said your original injector had fuel coming out of only four holes. I was assuming there are more than four holes like the injectors in my Kymcos. So, how many holes are there?
-
The injector has 4 holes The old injector I could only consistently get fuel out of 1 hole.
-
Did you check your brake switches?
Brake lights on when pressed?
LH and RH all fine?
-
As I read, you did a full service.
I assume you did NO valve adjusting because this is a PITA at this 500, for you have to lower/lift the motor to take off valve cover.
So far so good. No change there to worry about.
Check into motorbay for any unplugged cables!
One more thought:
-since the sparkplug cap is pretty long and very hard to apply, maybe your cap came loose and is not on the sparkplug?
-or one of your ignition coil cables is off or loose?
-
All brake switches work great. No, I did not do a valve check when I did service.
When I pulled the plug to check spark, I was getting good spark and just assumed that the coil wire was connected. I will double check that when I get home from work this evening
Can anyone tell me how the cold start choke is supposed to work. There is a nipple at the end of it but I don’t know if it’s supposed to actuate back-and-forth when you turn the key on or how exactly it operates
-
If you open this little lid in your metin-box (view onto air and choke system) watch it and
-pull brake lever
-press start button
you will see a small movement on your air system, caused by scoots ECU via a small motor to reduce airflow and enrich your fuel mixture
AFAIK there is NO manual possibility to regulate a "choke" or cold start "bystarter".
I'm waiting for my diagtool to look into this matters.
For this sparkplug cap: If it wiggles only a little bit (original cap) it's not connected properly, must sit tight and close without any sideways movement.
Maybe try to reset: pls see link
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=30229.msg211198#msg211198
-
I will look into that more tomorrow afternoon. When I had the “choke” out of the bike I could feel it vibrating when I powered the key on, I was not sure how it operated.
Another update. It seems like the new injector is working properly. I get fuel out of the 4 ports on the injector. Have tested the side stand switch and it is operating properly. Side stand down, fuel pump shuts off. Side stand up fuel pump energizes and works.
I have checked the spark plug twice and it is giving spark. This is the weird part for me. When I spray some starting fluid into the throttle body and try to start, it will “chug” once like it wants to start but won’t.
I would think (please correct me if I’m wrong) but with starting fluid into the throttle body. The engine should start and run for a few seconds but it simply doesn’t
-
I will look into that more tomorrow afternoon. When I had the “choke” out of the bike I could feel it vibrating when I powered the key on, I was not sure how it operated.
Another update. It seems like the new injector is working properly. I get fuel out of the 4 ports on the injector. Have tested the side stand switch and it is operating properly. Side stand down, fuel pump shuts off. Side stand up fuel pump energizes and works.
I have checked the spark plug twice and it is giving spark. This is the weird part for me. When I spray some starting fluid into the throttle body and try to start, it will “chug” once like it wants to start but won’t.
I would think (please correct me if I’m wrong) but with starting fluid into the throttle body. The engine should start and run for a few seconds but it simply doesn’t
Now that fuel delivery out the injector solved, recommend a voltage check while cranking. Anything less than 9.5 volts renders no spark. You may also get a weak spark under compression. Plug cap not fully seated or faulty plug wire insulation may be factors.
-
I will check the wire and plug boot as well as volts while cranking, tonight when I get home
I will update once I know. Thank you.
-
When I had the “choke” out of the bike I could feel it vibrating when I powered the key on, I was not sure how it operated.
This could be the culprit!
If you had your "choke" flap out of your airsystem, there is a good likelyhood to mess up scoots fuelmixture sistem.
Also your TPS (throttle position sensor) could be misplaced somehow and gives irrational values.
All guesswork but we have to start somewhere.
-
I will check that when I get back home, had to travel for work and will resume diagnostics on the Kymco Saturday. I do sincerely appreciate you guys helping try to figure out the problem. I will update Saturday afternoon.
-
Two of my thoughts:
The scoot was running and seemed to be okay on your tour, just didn't start after it was let overnight.
A) you spray some starterfluid in it and it "chugs" once.
-so there might be a spark of some kind, but weak
means for me either not enough fluid or too much
or too weak spark (cap/plug not right somehow)
B) your airsystem is for whatever reason choked and blocks air and fuel to reach your cylinder (as a result of dissambling)
For both points I would check first the plugs condition (wet/oily/demaged) then judge upon that.
Make 100% sure your cap is on the plug.
-
Hello Guys, this is where I’m currently at with the bike
Good injector stream
Good pressure with fuel pump
Kill switch operational
Side stand switch operational
Good spark at plug
Tight connection with spark plug boot
Charged battery 12.8. when cranking bike, battery drops to 11.7.
I have reset the TPS using the instructions provided (thank you for pointing me to that post)
Bike will still not start. Even with a shot of starting fluid or gas into the throttle body
Now I’m at a loss. The only other 2 things I can think of is the
Idle air bypass valve (choke) or the mass air flow sensor. Both of which are kind of pricey.
Anyone have any other ideas of things I need to look at.
Again, thanks for the help.
-
Take once again a second battery and jumpstart.
Take another sparkplug , preferabley new.
Take as a last resort, your plastik intake pipe behind your throttle body off and pour fresh fuel in this body.
Starts it's fine, if not check how the plug looks like?
Wet or not?
If wet, plug in again, crank again until starts.
If dry, something wrong with your valves.
Q: did you do anything to or at your scoots generator/stator to change the pick-ups position?
Faulty mass flow sensor would draw a failure code.
-
Valve timing?
-
Yes, one of several possibilities..
-
I will check everything you have suggested Later in the week. I fly out tomorrow for work.
I will update when I know more. Thanks again.
-
I have not done anything to the atl\ generator
-
Ok, we hook off the generator and pickup..
So, my bet is still on this sparkplug cap being not proper on its plug!
Because:
- we have a spark with plug out
- we have fuel by its injector (is there really fuel in it?)
- it's cranking properly
The injection models have a NO START feature, means if you open the throttle during cranking it will NOT start, to avoid accidentily taking off like a rocket.
So, no WOT during cranking, no touching the throttle grip!
Is this middle plastic cover (middle tunnel) completely off?
With this NOT removed, is it nearly impossible to put sparkplug cap properly on plug.
-
Q: if you watch att. pic, what and where did you dissasamble exactely on this throttle body.
-there on top is an inbus screw which is plombed by a speck of paint, was is that?
-this spring there has a certain tension, maybe that?
-throttle position sensor not hooked up?
-throttle flap inactive?
-
Yes I do have the tunnel removed giving access to the engine.
As for the throttle body. The only 3 things I have removed is the rubber hose on the back coming from the air box. The mass airflow sensor and idle air bypass valve.
I have not removed the TPS sensor.
The fuel tank is full. With the injector out and cranking, it produces a beautiful spray. It is a new injector, the old injector would only spurt out of one hole, that’s why at first I figured it was the injector.
The one thing I have not done is after putting either starting fluid or gas into the throttle body and trying to start is check the plug immediately after to see if it’s wet or dry. I will do that and see how the plug looks.
Could the TPS sensor be bad? Does it throw a code or engine light if not working properly?
I have read about a diagnostic tool that you can plug into a connection back by the battery, any chance that is would help me if I found one of those?
-
I have read about a diagnostic tool that you can plug into a connection back by the battery, any chance that is would help me if I found one of those?
It may help but generally only confirms what you find or suspect. I think it is kinda neat but it will make some testing easier. I don't think it is absolutely neccessary. For example, it would have shown nothing of your clogged original injector. You had to actually SEE the spray pattern. That was not the cause anyway.
We are all missing something here....
-
Ok, try this fuel thing, then we will know more.
Yes, sensors can get down without warning, but CEL would be on.
MAS is a very sensitive piece, if the needle point is demaged, no data, no start. Bypass valve is tougher. But let's see.
-
As CROSSBOLT says, "we are missing something here".
Remote cristalballing is not always easy. What I would do if I had this scoot here in my workshop:
-unplug all electrics from throttle body, injector etc. no matter what failure code it would draw
-put a humble 40mm carburator on this throttle body (smtg like that see pic)
-connect this carb with an external fuel supply and gas cable
-start the scoot
Now I would see what its doing, limping or running just fine motorwise.
So I would go now backwards step by step to see which part is challenging me.
At the end it will show either EFI or ignition or valves or something else.
I know this is unconventional but sometimes the only way to go.
-
Good afternoon guys. Sorry for the delay but sometimes work gets in the way.
So this is where I’m at currently.
Everything at the throttle body is put back together.
I remove the air filter and shot some starting fluid in the air filter opening.
Bike will start and run. I have a 40 second video of bike running.
Turn the bike off and reinstall air filter, bike won’t start.
Remove the air filter again and try to start. No start. Small shot of starting fluid bike starts.
But now I have the check engine light is on. The last day I rode this bike there was no check engine light.
-
Did you take this black pipe direct behind the throttle body off and sprayed there?
Don't worry right now about this CEL.
Don't put anything on this throttle body, just leave it open.
Since it's running for a while:
- no ignition issue
- no valve issue
So we might looking towards fuel system.
Do you hear the fuel pump running when you switch ignition on?
Does it spray properly ? (injector)
Far shot again:
-side stand down or switch faulty?
-
Faulty mass flow sensor would draw a failure code.
Forgive for sounding like a "stuck record" (I'm showing my age :-), but you don't have failure codes without a factory diagnostic reader. The only way you can see failure codes & debug fuel-injected bikes is take it to the dealer. Unlike normal cars and trucks, m/c owners don't have access to the diagnostic codes.
-
JJJ yes, I'm 100% with you, saying failure codes you have only applying a DiagTool. But failure codes also result in CEL showing for m/c owners.
So, CEL on, something out of norm on your bike, means seeing the dealer for most of us.
DiagTools are available for all of us for small money. I would be able to diagnose, IF I wouldn't have gotten a FXtul for SUZUKI/HONDA/VESPA.
(pls see pics) works great on mentioned brands, but waiting now for my FxTul KYMCO.
-
Last week I had the air tube off at the throttle body itself and shot staring fluid directly into throttle body and the bike would not start at all.
With that tube connected and just removing the air filter and shooting starting fluid there, the bike will start.
The new injector seems to be operating correctly. Good spray from all 4 ports.
Let me ask this? Could it be the map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor?
It there a way to clean and test this theory without just buying a new one
Yes side stand switch operating properly. When the side stand is down. Pump shuts off.
Fuel pump will energize when the side stand goes up.
-
Testing this MAP sensors is out of our reach without certain equipment, sorry.
This guys where I did my MAP change, even told me, in doubt they take new item/ sensor.
Yes, it can be cleaned with lots of rubbing alcohol and Q- tips (I take the very long ones from my wifes praxis which are used to do pap smear test) but very tender not to bend or brake this tongue-like feeler inside. I do not have expert knowledge there. Maybe I was just lucky when I cleaned mine.
Gurus there told me a thin coat of muck or grease renders them disfunctional.
Surprises me, intake flange (black plastic pipe) off, NO START, would not know why?
We need a certain ratio of fuel versus air to have a startable mixture within our cylinder (1 vs 14.7 parts) maybe your mix was too rich and dampened the spark, have no better explaination.
Pls see pic
Q: do you have at the red arrow position a screw in it?
Q: do you have the same sensor holder position as under green arrow?
Because if you had this under green out, it's nearly impossible to readjust without electronic equipment.
...and a screw in there at red could block throttle movement to a certain degree...
-
This was my theory as well as to why there was no start directly into throttle body. Mixture of balance.
As for the picture. The red arrow, no. I have never touched anything at there.
The green arrow, yes. This is the map sensor and I did remove it to see if there were any signs that is was damaged or broken. Reinstalled in the same position I removed or so I think.
Is there a chance that if I play around with position of this sensor it messes things up?
-
I would try to move this positioner in tiny steps, which direction I cannot say. But mark it properly to have a reference point. Cannot get worse.
AFAIK there is a pre-tensioned spring involved, this is to be considered. Take the whole throttle body out first and probe dry.
-
Good afternoon guys. This is my update and progress has been made.
So, I cleaned the throttle body the map sensor and the cold start bypass valve.
I wish now that I had done each step one at a time and tested but since I always seem to be pressed for time I did them all at once. Good news is now the bike will start right up. At least today it did
I tested this several times and it started each time.
I will test again tomorrow to see if it starts.
However, now I have a constant check engine light.
I have adjusted and readjusted the map sensor and the cold start bypass to no avail.
I’m guessing now I will have to find a code reader. Maybe this will help solve this mystery.
When you first cycle the key of course you get all the lights on the dash including the check engine light. Everything is energized. All lights will go out. The bike will start and about 5-10 seconds later the check engine light comes back on.
Is there any key cycle combinations that flash the code like on some cars and trucks?
Thanks for all the help so far. I’m much more confident that this bike will in fact ride again.
-
Yeees, this is what we want!
Like I wrote, don't you worry about this CEL right now. There is NO mechanical failure which could rot your engine. The scoot will NOT go into workshop mode like a car which shows CEL and slows down to 70km/h to force you to see a dealer.
No, no flashcode, only diagtool to read.
Most probably a sensor is bent or lightly miffed. This sensors recover sometimes, or CEL dissappears after certain amounts of cycles.
Lately a forum colleague (txs to Ericson) found an inexpensive diagnostic tool (pls see link)
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=33628.0
which I ordered, used and am happy with.
Maybe a solution for you, if no dealership within reach.
N.B.: try only with a fully charged battery or jumpstart, maybe read my thread about my 500i in this collumn.....
-
I will put all the plastic back on and take her for a ride.
I will go ahead and purchase the diagnostic tool you linked to and will also read your post.
I will update agin in a few days. I have a feeling that my work schedule will be crazy this week as I prepare for vacation next week.
Thanks again for all the help.
-
I will put all the plastic back on and take her for a ride.
I will go ahead and purchase the diagnostic tool you linked to and will also read your post.
I will update agin in a few days. I have a feeling that my work schedule will be crazy this week as I prepare for vacation next week.
Thanks again for all the help.
One way to get rid of CEL or codes is to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or a few minutes.....no special tool needed.
-
I disconnect the battery each time I’m done working on it. It has sat for several days with no battery connection. I’m going to check again tonight. It will have been 24 hours off the battery
-
Got to my shop this afternoon and new symptom. Maybe related.
Hooked up battery. Battery tested at 12.77. Tried to start bike. It would just crank but not fire.
Hooked up my jump box. She started instantly.
Once running. I tested battery again and it is charging at 13.50. Rolling on the throttle has seemingly no effect on charging. It’s steady at 13.50- 13.51. Regardless of throttle position.
Weak starter maybe?
The battery is new but honestly it is a mid/ low level brand.
Weize is the battery brand.
-
Got to my shop this afternoon and new symptom. Maybe related.
Hooked up battery. Battery tested at 12.77. Tried to start bike. It would just crank but not fire.
Hooked up my jump box. She started instantly.
Once running. I tested battery again and it is charging at 13.50. Rolling on the throttle has seemingly no effect on charging. It’s steady at 13.50- 13.51. Regardless of throttle position.
Weak starter maybe?
The battery is new but honestly it is a mid/ low level brand.
Weize is the battery brand.
Load test battery...may have a "weak" cell.
-
This is why I wrote...
N.B.: try only with a fully charged battery or jumpstart, maybe read my thread about my 500i in this collumn
..... anyway, we do have a running motor which is only showing CEL, but behaving normal and charges properly...
...13.50V is showing that: battery full, no lights or other users connected..
Your startermotor is fine. They are pretty sturdy in this model.
Next time you attempt to start try following:
-connect battery
-ignition on (fuelpump running)
-NO start yet!
-position lights on for about 20 seconds
-lights off
-brake lever and START!
How does it behave?
If it starts in that mode, a cell is "shorted", means you need a new battery or your jumpstart set all the time with you (which is a way too).
I would reccomend a LiFePo4 20 amps, which annules all this zores.
-
Ruffus, I did read your post about your 500i and you have given me some fantastic ideas. Voltmeter and USB will be to on my list. I am also going to take your battery recommendation.
If I can get over to my shop tonight, I will follow your steps and report back.
Sadly I won’t be able to ride the bike until week after next. My Wife has twisted my arm for us to take a vacation next week. It’s the least I can do since she tolerates my bike obsession.
Happy wife, happy life as they say.
-
👍😅...even if our scoots are kind of passion, I dare to say, you are 100% right "happy wife...."
..have a wonderful time with family..
-
Ok probably last post until I get back but here is I think we are.
I did the test. Battery 12.88
Hooked to bike and cycled key. Let stand for 30 seconds or so. Check battery. 12.64
Tried cracking while watching voltage. It drops to 11.30- 11.40 while cranking.
Bike will crank but never start. So I think a new battery is needed and I go with your recommendation Ruffus with the lithium ion.
You guys have a great week ahead
-
Ok probably last post until I get back but here is I think we are.
I did the test. Battery 12.88
Hooked to bike and cycled key. Let stand for 30 seconds or so. Check battery. 12.64
Tried cracking while watching voltage. It drops to 11.30- 11.40 while cranking.
Bike will crank but never start. So I think a new battery is needed and I go with your recommendation Ruffus with the lithium ion.
You guys have a great week ahead
11.8 is more than enough for spark. I am suspecting a contaminated or corroded connection to the ECU causing a localized voltage drop below about 10 volts.
-
@CROSSBOLT yes, one possibility.
Should be followed too. Maybe clrains tells us about the scoots past. Salty environment or something like that.
Since CROSSBOLT is an old hawkeye pls follow this link too.....
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=30155.msg211578#msg211578
....or something in this direction, pls see link
SENSOR CAM POSITION Kymco 37292-LBF2-900
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=27274.msg191279#msg191279
Since it didn't drop to around 10V I'm still with my battery theory.
One more thought:
- pull off sparkplug cap
- take a flat screwdriver
- screw out this resistor which is in this sparklplug cap
- clean off all corrosion
- spray contact fluid in this cap
- put resistor back
- start?
I know this being a 700i but just to consider
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=27274.msg191703#msg191703
- side stand switch?
- kill switch?
- hazard light switch corroded
- sounds strange BUT: open and close throttle 2-3 times before starting
(profis: yes I know this would actually be contraproductive at an EFI motor, but worth to try)
-
Good afternoon guys. Back from vacation and a new update.
The bike is back together. I did get a new battery and she starts right up now.
However, I still have the check engine light on. I guess I will need to get the code reader to figure that one out. Took the bike on a 100 mile trip Sunday and she ran good. Been riding it back and forth to work the last 3 days and everything seems fine but the check engine light.
As for the bike’s history, don’t know much. I am the third owner. I bought it in Chattanooga Tennessee from a kid who bought the bike to learn how to ride, once he was comfortable riding he bought himself a new Goldwing. And this scooter didn’t get rode much. Overall the bike is in great shape and I got a good deal on it. It only has 7000 miles on the clock.
I’ve never owned a Kymco. My other scooters were all Hondas.
Silverwing, helix, reflex and the PCX. Thought I would give Kymco a spin.
I want to say thank you to all of you for helping this bike back on the road.
I do think I want to upgrade some things on it like Ruffus did to his.
His installs look fantastic.
Once I get the code reader I will update with what the error is.
Again I sincerely appreciate everyone’s help.
This is a fantastic community
-
Thanks for walking this through with the rest of us. I have a couple of comments: 1. The CEL will remain on until you used a diagnostic code reader to clear the codes. 2. The MAF sensor is sensitive and should not be touched. This could be the reason your CEL is on. 3. The dealer's diagnostics will tell you exactly what needs attention, and also the part # that's causing issues. I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone of us using after-market diagnostic tools - they make this kind of problem so easy to fix!
-
@clrains
Glad go read your scoot is behaving! Yes, would be nice to learn what the guys find.
@JJJ
Ericson introduced this aftermarket tool, I ordered too and worked with it (pls see link).
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=33628.msg236049;topicseen#msg236049