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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Iahawk on July 31, 2023, 08:13:29 PM
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it's been a few weeks since I bought my Nighthawk and I've made a little progress. I have a new battery and have cleaned the battery box and the battery cable connections. I've removed the front forks to replace the seals and bushings..1 oil seal, 1 dust seal and 2 metal bushes per fork. I have one completely disassembled, the other I'm soaking in PB Blaster to try to loosen the completely rusted c clip that holds down the oil seal. The dust seals were in bad shape and apparently let water in to rust the metal c clips.
Once forks are rebuilt I'll take apart the calipers. I have master rebuild kits for both brake and clutch master but I'll need to see what is going on with the calipers since the brake lever does not pull in. thinking stuck caliper...
I have had fun searching the various sites for parts...I didn't realize we had a David Silver Spares (great old Honda NOS parts supplier based in England) location in the US! I found 2 NOS aluminum headlight brackets for $50 (the old ones are slightly corroded and have been hit on one side, bending them both, slightly).
I have a bunch of parts ready to go when I get to them (carb rebuild kits, the master rebuild kits, clutch slave cyl rebuild kit). I'm excited about my latest package to arrive...new Galfer stainless front brake lines for only $37!
Here's a 'before' pic and an 'after front wheel and fork removal' pic.
I wish I could devote 5 solid full days to this and knock it out but life doesn't work that way.....keep on wrenching!
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Thanks for the update Hawk
Too bad you and Ruffus don't live on the same side of the street🙂
Please keep your photo reports coming, but I have to break them up, and rest a bit.....between the tasks..
Stig
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assembled my first motorcycle fork this afternoon. I removed both forks from my Nighthawk and was able to get the big circlip out of one fork, which allowed oil seal removal and complete disassembly. The left fork's circlip was rusted solid in there..I soaked it for about a week in various chemicals, mostly PB Blaster. I was finally able to get the clip to move enough yesterday to get a small flat blade screwdriver in there to get the clip out. It felt like victory!
The dust seal was torn and water had obviously gotten in there and rusted the thick, metal circlip.
I used #0000 steel wool to clean the chrome fork tube of any rust specs and assembled the fork with new oil seal, washer, dust seal, 2 bushes and new copper sealing gasket for bottom bolt. Filled it with 15.3 oz of new fork oil, pumped it a bunch of times and it's good to go!
Felt great to have one fork done.
Waiting to do the next fork until my washer comes in. The big washer that sits under the oil seal can also be used to help drive in the seal from above when using a 1.5" pvc pipe. I used the washer from the 2nd fork to drive in the oil seal in the first fork but now I need the spare washer to assemble the 2nd fork, if that makes sense.
I used all new Honda parts for the rebuild. When both forks are done I'll move on to the calipers, brake lines and both brake and clutch masters. I want to disassemble the calipers before ordering parts as I'm not sure if I'll need new pistons or not. I'm thinking not, but I'll know more when I take them apart.
Pic of victorious first fork and old parts that were replaced.
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Got my coffee and following along here.....
Keep up the good work...and the pix!
Stig
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Often I think the spannering is as much fun as the riding.
Looks like you have an excellent work space there!
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Looks like you have an excellent work space there!
Looks like it's bigger than my back yard! Jealous.
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I use the 3rd stall of my garage as my shop area...although it seems to shrink a bit each year as more junk gets stored in there!
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a few more pics..removed tank last night (to clean under it and to get ready for plugs and my last step, carb removal and rebuild)...and that seems to be the nicest thing on the bike!
Still waiting on a big washer to come in to put left fork together, then will move on to calipers and masters. Caliper rebuild kits should arrive any day. Will be traveling the next week so work will be on hold...sure hope to get this together to ride before the snow flies!
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@hawk, seeing this four cylinders makes my mouth watering.😉👍
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thanks Ruffus, I can't wait to hear her scream! I also just realized that my People S200 had a 163 cc motor...the Nighthawk has a 655 cc motor which means each cylinder displaces...163 cc! So I have a 4 cylinder People S200?! 8)
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last work on my Nighthawk before I head out of town for a bit...rebuilt and assembled 2nd fork, pulled off the front calipers, removed the pistons and seals and gave them an initial cleaning. The pistons were stuck in solid in both calipers. The right caliper I was able to push them most of the way out using brake fluid pressure and then after removal an air compressor popped out both pistons.
The left caliper was harder..neither brake fluid pressure nor air pressure would budge the pistons so I used a method I've seen on youtube, lately. It involves putting a small socket and a ratchet extension (attached to ratchet) of the correct size to fill up the piston and then turning the ratchet, which in turn forces the piston to turn. You do this for a bit to get it going and then you continue turning while also pulling out.
It worked surprisingly well! No need for piston pulling pliers.
A little corrosion and gunk in the piston bores but mostly the dust and piston seals were just gunked up and torn up, which didn't allow the pistons to move. The pistons themselves are in good shape, after some cleaning and #0000 steel wool.
Next up will be rebuilding the calipers and installing the new stainless brake lines and rebuilding the brake and clutch masters.
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Nice work Iahawk, you are an inspiration to the rest of us. I bet when you're done it will be very satisfying. Keep it coming.
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back home after a nice little family vacation to Minnesota..spent part of the morning scraping the hardened crud out of the caliper bores where the seals go. Man, old, hardened brake fluid is like concrete!
Got the calipers all cleaned up and then moved on to the brake master. Got it unhooked and cleaned up, removed all the moving parts...and couldn't let it go back on the bike looking as bad as it did. (and yes, the sight glass is driving me nuts!)
Hit it with a couple coats of Rustoleum satin black and left it to hang to dry.
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finished up my left fork..was waiting on the 'pin seals' for the TRAC system...Honda's attempt at an anti dive fork in the 80's. All advice from the Nighthawk forum was to leave the old TRAC system alone, so I did, other than replacing the 2 rubber boots. I didn't want water or dirt getting inside.
Then, since I'd just painted the brake master, and realized it looked so much better, I couldn't reinstall my 2 calipers looking like they did. Off to the auto parts store for some Duplicolor caliper paint, gloss black.
Tomorrow I'll mask off the calipers and put a few coats of paint on them. Now my clutch master and levers will all look out of place...guess there's more painting in my future..
(did replace the rubber grommets where the side panels attach..originals were all boogered up..my 'bike OCD' won't let me look at old, beat up rubber parts without replacing them..no pics, though..)
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painted my calipers yesterday and they look much better. I had them hanging to dry from the shower curtain rod in our kids bathroom..had to remove them as daughter wanted to shower this morning.
While far from perfect they do look really good...and I have to keep telling myself this isn't a concourse level restoration...it's a $1000 USD bike that I'm getting back to reliable running condition.
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have made a little progress on my Nighthawk..brake and clutch masters are cleaned, painted and I've replaced the sight glass in both. The old, yellow, crazed ones drove me nuts. Pretty easy to pop / pry out the old ones and put the new ones in using a 14 mm socket and a bench vise to gently push it in, straight.
I have my clutch slave cylinder disassembled and cleaned. Waiting on an additional oil seal and o ring that I wasn't aware of until I took it all apart.
Installed forks, front wheel and axle..torqued everything to spec. It finally looks like a bike, again.
Waiting on 2 new bleeders before I fully assemble my calipers. They have new seals in them and are cleaned up..almost ready to go.
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next steps are to rebuild brake master and assemble and install calipers, attach new stainless brake hoses (already loosely installed) and fill and bleed the system.
Then clutch master will be rebuilt along with clutch slave cylinder. Fill and bleed that system, too.
After that will be the pulling of the carbs to do a full rebuild on them, followed by a bench sync and a vacuum sync. Never done more than 1 carb before, but what the heck, I've never done any of this before! I'm finding out that it ain't rocket science. Mostly disassembling stuff, cleaning then replacing the rubber parts that wear out. Then reassemble!
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You're finding parts for this 39 yr old Honda?!
BTW - love the yellow accents! Brightens things up....on a Nightflyer!
Stig
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yeah, surprisingly, all (or most) of the maintenance and wear items are still available..most OEM from Honda! Other big items would need to be purchased used (instrument cluster, headlight, seat, bars, those type things).
The fuel petcock is not available but rebuild kits are. I pull up parts schematics, just like we do with our scoots, to find the parts and then compare prices (and availability) between the different sellers.
There are a lot of aftermarket (reproduction) parts also available for the bike. It does share a lot of components with other Hondas from the era so I think that makes things easier to source.
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had a productive afternoon working on the bike...got both calipers fully rebuilt as well as the brake master cylinder. Everything went together surprisingly easily. It feels great to have clean, lubricated, properly functioning calipers, again, as well as a master that doesn't leak.
Loosely installed everything and hooked up the new stainless brake lines. Looking good! Tougher part will be filling the system with brake fluid and bleeding everything.
(EBC Double H sintered brake pads, same ones I have on my other bikes)
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and a few more pics of the calipers on the bike and the master....I know much of this probably seems pretty basic but it's the first time I've done really any of this and the sense of accomplishment feels great.
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more progress today...I'm starting to see the finish line..kind of...
installed 4 new NGK plugs..the old ones weren't too bad but I prefer to start new with all fluids and maintenance items. Went to attach the speedometer cable and overtightened the screw..snap!..a piece of plastic shot across the garage. I found it and superglued and then JB Welded the piece back on..not perfect, but good enough.
Finally pulled the clutch slave spacer (the part of the slave closest to the motor) and wow, what a crusty, rusty, disgusting oil seal that had. I pulled the rubber off and it was all metal underneath..corroded metal that had welded itself to the slave spacer. I soaked in penetrating oil and cooked with a propane torch a few times then was able to hammer in a small screwdriver into it to pry it out. I also replaced an o ring on the back side of that part. It appears the o ring was leaking oil from the clutch rod (looks like a car's pushrod).
Cleaned up, new seals, installed new seals and spring in the clutch slave cylinder then assembled it all together on the bike!
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also rebuilt clutch master with new parts plus new diaphragm, new cap screws and new crush washers for the banjo bolt. Greased the pivot points on the lever and realized I forgot to paint the end of the lever where it's been scratched...dang..
Transferred over the front brake hose clamps from the old brake lines to the new. These hold the front brake hoses and attach to the fork with 2 bolts. The old rubber hoses were fatter than the new stainless ones so I had to cut down the rubber grommet and squeeze the metal holder tighter on the new brake lines.
Used some Back to Black on both plastic switchgear housings with surprisingly good results and installed the mirrors.
Tomorrow I hope to fill and bleed both brake and clutch systems..wish me luck.
next up - carb rebuild, petcock rebuild and gas tank clean and de-rust. Then fire her up!!
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continuing to make progress..filled and bled the hydraulic clutch system and brake system...after some additional tightening of the banjo bolts it went very well and was actually quite easy to get the system filled and bled (contrary to many horror stories I'd read about people trying to fill new systems).
used DA polisher with compound and polish then ceramic top coat on front fender..installed fender. Front end is all rebuilt and reassembled.
Fender's paint is not going to be perfect due to years of sun exposure and some 'alligatoring' in the finish..but it looks nice from 10 feet away.
received petcock rebuild kit in mail today so have most everything I need to continue on...carb removal and rebuild is next up. I'll go to the extra trouble of rear wheel removal in order to unhook and pull airbox backward, giving me much better access to carbs for removal.
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continuing to make progress...I reassembled the bike yesterday to show to a friend who was in town for the home football weekend here in Iowa City..
then stripped it down again, today. Removed rear wheel, rear fender, airbox (and all connections, both electrical and vacuum)..taking notes and taking plenty of pictures to document...plus following along exactly in service manuals..
This gave me the chance to clean the 'you know what' out of the bike..40 years of dirt and oily grime...man that feels good.
Didn't break anything during disassembly, luckily. Then it was simple to pull the bank of carbs off, using a little additional leverage from a prybar and block of wood. Started to strip down the carbs for cleaning and rebuilding. Everything looks very clean..cleaner than I would have expected. someone has been in the carbs before, they've been split, I can tell from the boogered up screws.
Done for the day...will start up on carbs again in the morning. Happy riding to all.
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still plugging away...cleaned up and painted the rusty battery tray and discovered the rubber air tubes going from the airbox to the carbs were not seated properly into the hard plastic airbox, letting unfiltered air into cylinders 1 and 2. It probably happened last time someone removed the carbs and jammed them back in. I'm very glad I removed the airbox to simplify carb removal.
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carbs are now completely cleaned..every passage, orifice, opening..soaked in Chem Dip, sprayed out with carb and brake cleaner and blown out with compressed air. I also used steel wool to polish up many parts like the inside of the emulsion tubes, the seat for the needle, choke plungesrs...everything! Resprayed every opening with brake cleaner and blasted with compressed air again this morning. They are set aside waiting to be put back together.
I discovered someone installed #125 main jets in the bike (OEM is #115). Even with a K&N in the factory airbox that is way over jetted. After some research I've settled on 120 mains. Waiting on the new jets to be delivered before buttoning up the carbs.
Separating a bank of 4 carbs is also a very simple, straightforward process. Nothing like the nightmare you read about. I'm glad I did it as it gave me a chance to go through everything on the carbs.
I also cleaned up both 40 year old shocks with 0000 steel wool, replaced all 4 rubber shock bushings and touched up all the chips and nicks on the frame with a rust converter and then gloss black Rustoleum, brushed on. Surprisingly good match to the factory frame paint. Couldn't stand looking at rust spots on the frame!
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after what seemed like an eternity waiting for 4 new floats...they arrived yesterday! I started to install them and realized that the new floats were really no different, height wise, than the old floats. I took better measurements of the old ones..factory service manual calls for 18.5 mm plus or minus 1 mm. All 4 were slightly lower than the 18.5 mm but all were within the 1 mm tolerance..with 3 of the 4 at 19 mm and 1 just under 19.5. So I get to return the floats and spend the money on a carb sync tool, instead!
Reassembled the bank of 4 carbs and installed throttle cables and choke cable then installed on motor. So much easier without the airbox in the way. Used a heat gun to heat up the rubber intakes and added a little motor oil to them..took a little persuasion but they are all seated correctly.
Heading out of town for a few days but hope to get most of the bike reassembled this weekend. Getting the carbs reassembled and installed was a big step forward.
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well, to wrap up this story (for now)..I got the cleaned carbs back on the bike, put airbox on (attaching airbox boots to carbs was a pain..airbox rubbers have shrunk about 1/4 inch over time..used heat and force and stronger clamps to keep them in place)..rear fender, wheel, brake rod, tail, seat, battery and side covers installed..
filled carbs up with fuel using a ketchup squeeze bottle filled with fuel, through the fuel line, before installing tank as I wanted to check for leaks from the many places they could leak...no leaks! Rebuilt petcock this morning..no leaks there (for now)..drained tank and refilled with zero ethanol premium and fuel stabilizer...
Installed tank and she fired up! It took a bit of trying and fiddling with the manual choke..but she fired up and I took her on her maiden voyage..about 32 miles around town. What a comfortable, smooth ride.
I especially love the 'closed throttle' response of the motor...very smooth with no jerking when throttle is closed, unlike my fuel injected Ninja...which goes from about 20% throttle to 0%..nothing in between..and it will jerk and throw you forward a bit if you're not practicing perfect throttle control. Leaner fueling for emissions compliance, as I understand it.
So still need new tires (old ones are date coded 2011) and the valve cover gasket and rubber cam end caps leak so those will need to be replaced..and I need to sync the carbs with a real syncing tool...I did the old 'eyeball sync' when they were off the bike! Got 'em close but they still need a real syncing.
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Cracking job Hawk, you can be justifiably proud of your work!
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You're wearing me out, Hawk!
What a fearless mechanic 🙂
for the Major, Stig
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Cracking job Hawk, you can be justifiably proud of your work!
thanks, guys...and yes, Stig, it has worn me out, too! Maybe more mentally taxing than anything, as seeing a bunch of parts spread out all over the garage for a few months seems to take its toll on me. The end result makes it worth it. It's been 2 years since I took on the Helix..and now the Nighthawk...let's wait another 2 years and then see what comes next.
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another update on the bike..completed the carb sync last week. My bench sync got cylinders 1,2 and 3 pretty close but #4 was way off. Ordered a Carbtune Pro sync tool and an auxiliary fuel tank.
Removed the bike's fuel tank, hooked up the sync tool to a vacuum port on each intake boot between carb and head, hooked up aux fuel tank to bike's fuel line...fired her up and made my adjustments. The actual sync process took about 10 minutes..very easy.
Bike seems a bit smoother and starts a bit easier (still trying to figure out how much choke, etc. to use to optimize start up). I've put a few miles on it and I'm finally getting used to the clutch, brakes, handling, etc. Still have valve cover gasket and tires to go (and maybe cam chain tensioner spring..but that's for another day).
Also placed an order last night for some OEM cap head bolts (to replace some on bike that has some rust, that drives me nuts), the chrome plastic covers for the top of the forks (original ones are pitting) and the positive battery cable and the starter motor cable...all OEM from CMSNL.com (awesome site for old OEM bike parts in The Netherlands). Pricing is pretty reasonable, too. Those should arrive in about 2 weeks.
pics of bike with Carbtune hooked up and auxiliary tank hanging from stepladder next to bike.
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one more ...hmmmm, had to resize both pics down from my usual 'resizing'...
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still trying to figure out how much choke, etc. to use to optimize start up
Why not not put it on all the way, then gradually close it as engine warms up?
It’s been two years since getting the Helix?!
Yikes, time is passing too quickly
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Why not not put it on all the way, then gradually close it as engine warms up?
that's how I do it..but wondering if trying a smaller amount of choke would help as it takes a bit to get it running(?)..some of my other outdoor power equipment (mower, snow blowers, trimmer, generator) start easier without full choke...depending on weather.
I want to be able to start it with a few revolutions of the motor..not the current 10 to 15. I'll get there at some point.
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Just got back from a nice 45 minute ride...but to go back to my 'choke' comment, earlier..
turned fuel tap on, turned key on, pulled in clutch and hit starter button...da,da,da, vroom! 3 revolutions to start...looked down and noticed I did not turn choke on...slowly added choke and it killed the bike. Restarted without choke...hmmm...65 degrees F in garage, last rode bike 2 days ago..started up easily without choke...?
I'll try to repeat this on my next ride, seeing if starting without choke in these temps is easier.
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I'm pretty much done for now with the Nighthawk refresh....still need to do the valve cover gasket, along with rubber cam end caps (4x$23 each, need to buy them), and tires (~$500). I was curious what I'd spent at the various vendors on the bike so I put a list together (in USD)...roughly $900 on bike parts and another $300 on tools used for the bike refresh (snap ring pliers, carb sync tool, float height gauge, etc.)
Vendors used: Chaparral Motorsports, 4 into 1, David Silver Spares, Motosport, Brakecrafters, Rocky Mtn ATV, Partzilla, Darkhorse, Jets R Us, Superbright LED's, CMS, Jegs, Amazon, Lowe's hardware and O'Reilly Auto Parts.
Original purchase price of bike, $1000 + $900 on parts + $300 on tools (which in all fairness will be used again on other projects) = $2200. I've probably missed another $50 from brake fluid, oil, etc..so say $2250 all in...with another ~$600 to go.
That will put me around $2850 for a bike that probably wouldn't sell for that...maybe $2000 - $2500 to the right buyer for a bike that will need nothing.
Learned a ton...had never done most of the things I did on the bike so that is invaluable experience. Also had a great time working on it...starting to get a little antsy to start another project but that will have to at least wait until next year! Attaching recent pic of bike in garage.
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Hawk great, congrats!
Need not always to pay off in $$, we live to have fun!
🛠🔩👍
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yes, thanks, Ruffus, I agree...it's about the fun of doing it!
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all right...one more post...just received my order from CMS in the Netherlands...really cool to open a box of 40 year old (mostly) new old stock parts! Most are in original packaging, a few have been repackaged. I like how they threw in a little guy on a keychain.
Chromed fork caps, a bunch of stainless cap bolts and the positive battery cable and cable from relay to starter. I think I know what I'm doing on Saturday.
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you're makin my want to get back on one of my stalled projects, I never throw away bikes, I have 2 1981/2 Yamaha XV920Rs other than both needing a starter, I can come up with 1 complete original bikes and the other turned into a café racer. been 15+ years since I rode either. A fun bike about 70hp, boatloads of torque, enclosed chain (maintenance every 30k less than a shaft requires) huge 9" headlamp, to this day, even with modern LEDs, the best bike headlamp out there.
(https://classic-motorbikes.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/12405.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4RN3qC1Hga0/VtJJZcBp1SI/AAAAAAAA58E/EJPYELPt1Yw/s1600/04.jpg)
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randyo - great looking bike! No one ever regrets getting an old bike back on the road...I say go for it! Do you have any other old bikes hanging around your place??
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Hawk,
Curious, did you come upon CMS on ebay.....or a Honda forum, or ?
I still have some Honda Forza parts in their bags with red labels.🙃
Stig
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Stig, I think I found CMS when searching for parts for my Helix a few years ago? They do get mentioned on other forums, as well. I've had their site bookmarked in my 'favorites'. My order took 14 days from placement to delivery.
I finally realized what their name means.. CMSNLcom ...Consolidated Motor Spares, Netherlands
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Stig, I think I found CMS when searching for parts for my Helix a few years ago? They do get mentioned on other forums, as well. I've had their site bookmarked in my 'favorites'. My order took 14 days from placement to delivery.
I finally realized what their name means.. CMSNLcom ...Consolidated Motor Spares, Netherlands
I ordered a Nolan helmet from an ebay shop in the NL. Free shipping, and much bigger color selections and much lower price.
The thing was on my porch in like 72hrs!
Been waiting 6 weeks for an item from a Canadian ebayer..
The Dutch are doing something right!
Stig
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randyo - great looking bike! No one ever regrets getting an old bike back on the road...I say go for it! Do you have any other old bikes hanging around your place??
ya, I've got an old early 80's Kawasaki 250cc, couldn't tell you what model, long story how I came to acquire it. I've never seen it run.
The xv920r was somewhat unique for it's time, the awesome 9" headlamp, monoshock, enclosed chain. the 72° V-twins cylinders are on separate crankpins. The starter? don't know what Yamaha was thinking, sounds like stirring a cement mixer full of rocks.
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knocked out a few more things on the Nighthawk today...replaced the rubbers on the front turn signals, they tend to sag over time, and replaced the aluminum 'ears' that hold the headlight bucket. Those were replaced with NOS parts...pretty cool to see shiny, clearcoated aluminum parts from 40 years ago looking like new.
I also pulled the instrument panel, undid about 15 different screws, bolts and electrical connectors...and cleaned under the front, clear panel. It had a haze there, looked like water got under it from a washing..years ago? It drove me nuts to look through the haze every time I rode the bike. Have it mostly put back together...and I remembered where enerything went! That's always the challenge..
pics are the instrument panel taken apart, the hazy clear panel, and finally put back together, clean.
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Hawk,
A "TAIL LIGHT" indicator on your panel.
??!!
I've never seen this on any vehicle.
It lights if your tail light is burnt out, or??
BTW....
We (me!) really loves photos. Thanks for taking the time to shoot and post 'em!
....there is "book" 📚 reading.....and magazine/w/pics reading.
One gets my attention, the other I often give a pass, on forums.
(Not that I don't read books. I read from a book every single day.)
Stig
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yes, these old Hondas have an indicator on the dash that lights up if your taillight is out. Mine is currently lit up due to installing an led bulb back there. Apparently there's not enough resistance to indicate the bulb is working, so the light is lit up on the dash. I can wire in an inline resistor, go back to the incandescent bulb or leave it as is. I'll probably do the latter.