KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: william1313 on June 13, 2022, 04:00:33 PM
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I have a Kymco Peoples 50 cc 4T. Got it around 2009
Live on an Island and I did not do much maintanence until last week when I decided to do it myself.
Watched tons of videos
The topic of valve clearance was very interesting.
Many talk about using .004 inches for the clearance.
The manual, of course is in MM an recommends .04 mm
Attempt #1 I used the .004 inches. BTW the bike ran quite good before I attempted to fix it.
.004 inches caused very loud tapping. I feared I was actually damaging something it was so loud.
Next I went t the Manual suggestion of .04 mm and it hums like a bird. So with the Peoples 50 cc 4T I highly recomment you use .04 mm. If you are stuck on inches then .00158 inches. There is quite a difference between .004 inches and .00158 right? Its 2-3 x the proper gap size.
As an aside I changed the oil, trans fluid, and inspected the filter which had some oil on it. I could use some good common sense approach to that.
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I have a Kymco Peoples 50 cc 4T. Got it around 2009
Live on an Island and I did not do much maintanence until last week when I decided to do it myself.
Watched tons of videos
The topic of valve clearance was very interesting.
Many talk about using .004 inches for the clearance.
The manual, of course is in MM an recommends .04 mm
Attempt #1 I used the .004 inches. BTW the bike ran quite good before I attempted to fix it.
.004 inches caused very loud tapping. I feared I was actually damaging something it was so loud.
Next I went t the Manual suggestion of .04 mm and it hums like a bird. So with the Peoples 50 cc 4T I highly recomment you use .04 mm. If you are stuck on inches then .00158 inches. There is quite a difference between .004 inches and .00158 right? Its 2-3 x the proper gap size.
As an aside I changed the oil, trans fluid, and inspected the filter which had some oil on it. I could use some good common sense approach to that.
The Kymco standard for most 4 cycle engines is .1 mm/.004" from 50 to 300 cc.
.04 mm is generally a book typo error because it is way too small. You probably had the cam in the wrong position when setting .004" because that is generally quiet even on air cooled engines.
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Here in Italy we adjust
-intake valve 0.10 mm
-exhaust valve 0.12 mm
Too tight, heats up.
Too loose , starting problems, noisy
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Here in Italy we adjust
-intake valve 0.10 mm
-exhaust valve 0.12 mm
Too tight, heats up.
Too loose , starting problems, noisy
That will work well but not .04 mm!
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Piaggio manual says .08mm for all 3 valves of my LIBERTY150.
I do +.08mm > -.10mm.
I tell a lie - .08 makes me nervous :) so I do .10mm.
Yeah - going to be nice and quiet at .04mm.....until!
My 'tell' is - do I have a little up/down movement on the rocker arm adjuster screws? If they both aren't moving even a fraction - I need to re-do TDC because I may not be there!
Stig
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Thank you for your amazingly fast reply.
I suppose it could a typo. However .04 mm was used more than once in the Manual.
see chapter 3.
https://absolutelyscooters.net/manuals/Kymco_People_S_50_125_200_Service_Manual.pdf
I am pretty sure I had the cam in the right place because I was so paranoid I would make a mistake I triple checked it.
The .04 mm feeler felt like aluminum foil so I did question this.
There are several references in the literature for using .04 mm or near equivalents for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYPJM8jp5F8&t=92s&ab_channel=CrazyHoeseRider (see 3.10 minutes into the 6 min video)
see post by tortoise
https://scootdawg.proboards.com/post/229665
https://scootdawg.proboards.com/post/439154
However to your point, I see several posts saying just what you said.
Very confusing
Bill
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Thank you for your amazingly fast reply.
I suppose it could a typo. However .04 mm was used more than once in the Manual.
see chapter 3.
https://absolutelyscooters.net/manuals/Kymco_People_S_50_125_200_Service_Manual.pdf
I am pretty sure I had the cam in the right place because I was so paranoid I would make a mistake I triple checked it.
The .04 mm feeler felt like aluminum foil so I did question this.
There are several references in the literature for using .04 mm or near equivalents for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYPJM8jp5F8&t=92s&ab_channel=CrazyHoeseRider (see 3.10 minutes into the 6 min video)
see post by tortoise
https://scootdawg.proboards.com/post/229665
https://scootdawg.proboards.com/post/439154
However to your point, I see several posts saying just what you said.
Very confusing
Bill
This is from manualslib.com on the People S 50, 150, 200:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/982143/Kymco-People-S-125.html?page=79#manual
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Read page 41 same manual.
There must be some logical explanation.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/982143/Kymco-People-S-125.html?page=41#manual
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Read page 41 same manual.
There must be some logical explanation.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/982143/Kymco-People-S-125.html?page=41#manual
Chinglish......as .004 becomes .04mm.....typo for metric proofreader program in the printer??
Stig
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Read page 41 same manual.
There must be some logical explanation.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/982143/Kymco-People-S-125.html?page=41#manual
Been there, seen that, that and other models starting in 2006 or so. Many errors in operator and service manuals. Trust me! .04 mm = .0016" and a valve stem up to operating temp will "grow" that much. .1 mm/.004" is your target.
Several here tried over the years to get corrections made but were ignored. What could we know? Har, har! Some outfit horned in to write and correct but were largely ineffective.
The biggie early on was octane rating of fuel. Other countries don't have our (R + M)/2 rating system. The book said 91 minimum and the sticker inside the tub under the seat said 87 (R + M)/2.
Kymco is great scoots. Well designed, well made. Their books suck with errors and the importer is in chaos. You will hardly ever need parts and they nearly can't be killed.
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ok i will try .1 mm again
here is another post quoting a man who did just that and got loud tapping like I did.
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.0
If I do it and get the loud tapping should I just ignore?
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ok i will try .1 mm again
here is another post quoting a man who did just that and got loud tapping like I did.
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.0
If I do it and get the loud tapping should I just ignore?
Absolutely not! Like I said before, loud tapping usually means the cam is in the wrong position when setting the clearance. Just because the "T" is in the window does NOT mean the cam is right for setting valve clearance.
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so I did 4 thinks to assure I was in dead center
1. aligned the T
2 made sure the arms were movable
3. made sure the large hole was set equal between valves
4. made sure the small holes were in line with the case on both sides
Was there anything that I might have missed. Could the tapping be because the clearance was too large?
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so I did 4 thinks to assure I was in dead center
1. aligned the T
2 made sure the arms were movable
3. made sure the large hole was set equal between valves
4. made sure the small holes were in line with the case on both sides
Was there anything that I might have missed. Could the tapping be because the clearance was too large?
That confirms you have it in the right position. Could you do a video or just audio and post it here for us .... to hear?
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I think one of the biggest annoyances on forums is trying to help people who do not listen or refuse to get it!
I am not one of those people. But as I find myself continuing to challange the ideas that I am hearing I hope I do not come across as dumb or worse ungrateful. With that being said:
I scrutinized the 50,125,200 peoples manual again
https://absolutelyscooters.net/manuals/Kymco_People_S_50_125_200_Service_Manual.pdf
On section 3-5 it states this.
Valve Clearance IN: .12mm , 50 cc .04 mm
EX .12 mm, 50 cc .04 mm
clearly the author of the text is trying to differentiate the 125 and 200 cc verson of the peoples 50 from the 50 cc model.
I do understand the theory of typos but it would be hard to make a typo in this situation.
Given all this: I also understand the point that when the engine heat up it will expand by .04 mm and make a zero clearence which of course is not good. Please be patient with me and take a second to look at this "page 3-5" I am referring to and let me know if you are still 1000% sure its a typo. because it means a lot more work for me if it is.
apologies if I am wasting time and thanks for all your help
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I would be delighted to send a video, my pleasure
How does one upload a video? If you don't know I will google and make it happen
many thanks
bill
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I think all pictures and videos have to be resized to fit into this server. I use "lit photo" and "video press" apps.
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@william1313,
admittingly it's a little bit confusing to see for the 50ccm a gap in inch, but for the 125/200 the value to be set in millimeters.
Stick with 0.10 mm for your intake and 0.12 for exhaust.
For the noise/ tapping, you might listen to some other single cylinder to get an "ear" what's faulty or right.
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The 50 cc in the manual is mm not inches!
yes I would like to develop an ear for what normal sounds like
I will try to upload what mine sounds like
stand by. Having figured out how to send yet
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eW-vNlyLSiT6VSEn2EHEmo4P7Qgg_Fbo/view?usp=sharing
The valves are at .04 mm
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eW-vNlyLSiT6VSEn2EHEmo4P7Qgg_Fbo/view?usp=sharing
The valves are at .04 mm
Sounds very quiet but it should with valves set to .04 mm which is too tight (.0016").
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This is an exhausting topic that seems to reappear about once a year. I've always sidestepped this sticky mess by simply using the "pop can" feeler gauge. The correct valve clearance is the thickness of the metal of an ordinary pop can. Or, if you're inclined that way, you can use a beer can. Regardless, you can avoid the entire typo/non-typo mess by simply cutting up a pop can! It's an international measure that you can use in any country, regardless of drinking preferences!
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As said (pls see pic) tells us what many know.
KYMCO handbooks are not that easy to read.
Logic says, 4/100 of a millimeter is appr a hairs widh, too tight a gap. 🛵
@JJJ, love your distinction of preferences 😂
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Thanks for listening. Its unbelievable that the author of the manual could make a typo this way. He/she/them went out of their way to distinguish a difference between the different models...............very confusing. Kymco does not have a customer service by the way (I dont think)
I will try .1 mm again. I will use both a feeler gauge and beer can tab (I am sure there is a perfectly good reason why you told me this so I will follow). But.......................................................Would a compression test tell me anything about the status of my clearances. Remember .1 m sounded terrible and tappy to me!
BTW: This controvery of .004 inches or .1mm vs .04 mm is not limited to the Kymco 50 CC.
I found this with another bike
https://49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/21228/valve-adjustment-on-49cc-139qmb
One thought was that the feeler was not perfectly flat on the valve which would make every feeler I used virtually thicker and maybe why I am getting good results with inappropiately low calibration.
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What some of us do....try next thickness up, if it slides in...you're too big.
Final check...spin motor again, try correct thickness blade...fits nice?...next size up - "no go?". I'm good!
Stig
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Yes thats what I thought I did I was able to slide in .04 mm but not .05 mm
I decided to see what other manufacturers recommended and I searched the web for the valve clearance on the "engine" as opposed to my specific bike.
I found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pg4_p0hZnY&ab_channel=MiscVideosFrommyLife
This video person used .05 mm on this engine. Watch video from 4 min and 50 seconds for a minute.
It also talks about valve expansion when hot. I am not alone with this confusion apparently
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In 40yrs...I never met an air-cooled VW owner who thought an engine without valves tapping was a good sound
But, what I'm hearing from you is that you are not going to sleep well if you don't quiet your valve lash with your foil-like .04mm. blade.
Stig
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Set them at a fat .04mm as the manual says. I go with 2 thousands of an inch and let her rip.
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In 40yrs...I never met an air-cooled VW owner who thought an engine without valves tapping was a good sound
But, what I'm hearing from you is that you are not going to sleep well if you don't quiet your valve lash with your foil-like .04mm. blade.
Stig
I totally respect your experience. But I am misunderstood. It was not the tapping that bothered me.....it was my understanding that loud tapping was bad. I am not losing sleep and I am not even emotional about this. Could you post a video of what normal tapping is like. maybe thats my problem.
Another manual another manufacturer: clearance .06 mm
https://www.49ccscoot.com/manuals/139QM_Engine_Manual.pdf
As for letting her rip ........Your not trying to get rid of me are you.....or do you mean it
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Yes thats what I thought I did I was able to slide in .04 mm but not .05 mm
I decided to see what other manufacturers recommended and I searched the web for the valve clearance on the "engine" as opposed to my specific bike.
I found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pg4_p0hZnY&ab_channel=MiscVideosFrommyLife
This video person used .05 mm on this engine. Watch video from 4 min and 50 seconds for a minute.
It also talks about valve expansion when hot. I am not alone with this confusion apparently
He may be confused! .004 mm and .005 mm are WAY TOO SMALL!! If he meant .004" and .005" I would not be commenting. Personally, I think .04 mm is too small as well.
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He may be confused! .004 mm and .005 mm are WAY TOO SMALL!! If he meant .004" and .005" I would not be commenting. Personally, I think .04 mm is too small as well.
I am going through web site after web site. Here is yet another one at .05mm. There are a lot of confused people
https://49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/428
Can you find a manual where this engine has a clearance of .1 mm or .004inch
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To be fair and balanced. Here is one supporting your opinion:
https://itistheride.boards.net/thread/950/factory-set-valve-clearance
http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_valve_clearance.html "For most 150cc GY6 engines the clearance should be around .004", but check your manual. For 50cc engines I've seen .002" recommended."
This one .05mm: https://absolutelyscooters.net/pdf/CGen_GY6_50cc_Service_Manual.pdf
This one is also .05 mm: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/45190927/50cc-170cc-gy6-qmb139-scooter-repair-and-service-manualpdf
So this is what I learned: There are several manual that say .04 or .05 mm from different companies so I am concluding there is no way this is a typo. However experienced scooter experts say .004 inch or .1m and have good results so I am not discounting that. Several forums discuss this issue. Some novices like myself also report loud tapping and loss of power at .1 mm or .004 inches. Some report good results. Needless to say there is confusion. One thought was that companies recommend tight values to comply with enviremental rules and regulation but this is not best for the bike itself.
I believe I could come to the right answer if I knew what a normal bike should sound like so I guess I am left with one question and 1 request. Please anyone send me a link to what "normal sounds like" and is there any way to scientifically support this debate by doing another procedure ie would combustion presssure measurement answer the question in the confused population such as myself. Lastly thank you for your patients. I tried to support my case by providing literature proof but in the process I found arguments supporting both sides. ramble ramble sputter
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You are being very patient and reasonable, rare qualities these days. All us "old timers, big gappers" are aware of the past in HD and true color. We may even be guilty of "we always done it thattaway."
One fact: aircooled engines are going to ring like a bell while running. Liquid cooled are much quieter.
Two facts: the tighter valve clearance the more likely to burn an exhaust valve.
Three facts: 'Tis easier to listen to valve noise that repairing burned valves and seats.
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back just in time from a nice vacation to jump into this...
Crossbolt and Ruffus are correct. .10mm or .004". (you can increase the exhaust to .12mm if desired, as exhaust valves tend to tighten over time, I'll probably do this as I reassemble my torn apart motor).
Tons of misprints and typos in the Kymco service manuals (bad translations?).
If you don't like those settings please feel free to use your original ones and report back to us after a few hundred or thousand miles with your results. Other than that....???... happy scootering.
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To be fair and balanced. Here is one supporting your opinion:
https://itistheride.boards.net/thread/950/factory-set-valve-clearance
http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_valve_clearance.html "For most 150cc GY6 engines the clearance should be around .004", but check your manual. For 50cc engines I've seen .002" recommended."
This one .05mm: https://absolutelyscooters.net/pdf/CGen_GY6_50cc_Service_Manual.pdf
This one is also .05 mm: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/45190927/50cc-170cc-gy6-qmb139-scooter-repair-and-service-manualpdf
So this is what I learned: There are several manual that say .04 or .05 mm from different companies so I am concluding there is no way this is a typo. However experienced scooter experts say .004 inch or .1m and have good results so I am not discounting that. Several forums discuss this issue. Some novices like myself also report loud tapping and loss of power at .1 mm or .004 inches. Some report good results. Needless to say there is confusion. One thought was that companies recommend tight values to comply with enviremental rules and regulation but this is not best for the bike itself.
I believe I could come to the right answer if I knew what a normal bike should sound like so I guess I am left with one question and 1 request. Please anyone send me a link to what "normal sounds like" and is there any way to scientifically support this debate by doing another procedure ie would combustion presssure measurement answer the question in the confused population such as myself. Lastly thank you for your patients. I tried to support my case by providing literature proof but in the process I found arguments supporting both sides. ramble ramble sputter
Thank you for your post and I am in no way an expert but I did compulsively review several videos and read several manuals from competing companies who repetively use the values .04 mm and .05 mm. Whether right or wrong these values are mentioned in a "deliberate" fashion over and over. It defies logic to believe several companies are making the same "typo." Read the manuals and let me know if I am off base. I do apologize taking such an opposite stance being that yesteday I knew nothing. I do not necessarily degree with anyone that their information is "wrong" but it is clearly not a typo......they are simply wrong or in a far case scenerio in an alternate world "right".
This weekend I will increase my clearances.
with respect
bill
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Bill, I'd defer to Karl (Crossbolt) in these matters and I think his last post neatly sums it up. Better a little valve chatter than a burnt out exhaust valve?
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@william1313, learning by doing best way to get some experience.
Don't know where you are located at, but I would ask the next guy on the street with a
similar aircooled one cylinder to let me listen to its sound. Most scooter riders are more than
willing to show and explain.
And if you ask some more technical question or origin, you might even earn a coffee.
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Here is my neighbor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UotZ_ZLB5A&ab_channel=johnpaulmcdonagh
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Go your own way, don't you William!
I'm liking you more every day!
My wife said I can't wear my new hat around Florida.
I said I'm also going to wear it in Ohio!
"Suits my personality....!"
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLNRRdfP/20220615-202056.jpg)
"That's the problem!", she said.
Stig
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Bill, Stig 😂
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Your hat fits Florida well
Your dashboard suggests you do not tolerate heat (60 degrees come on man!) and that you have a smart phone that is syncing.
If you send me another picture I may be able to hack into your transmission.
Always Listen to your wife.
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Sorry to revive this issue once again but I acturally read over 8 manuals for 49 or "50 CC"" air cooled engines and watched over 10 videos. I figured that would be easier than ripping off my panels again. The majority of the manuals/videos set the valve clearances at .05 mm but the range was .03-.05 mm. Several, blogs and a few videos but no manuals discussed .1 mg or .004 inches. (for 49/50 cc) I think what is being missed is that the 50 cc engines can be distiguished from the larger engines (which are typically .1-1.2 mm). The Agility 50 cc discusses .04 mm in their manual. I am only bringing this up since there will be those that self maintain old bikes and they should be aware that not everyone agrees with .004" or .1 mm and there are many (including manufacturers) that support much smaller clearances that I am mentioning above. I imagine it is easy confuse .04 mm with .004 inches if it happened 10 years ago. If I am somehow being a dumb idiot and if I burn out my exhaust valve, I will publically announce how I didn't listen and pay the price for the humiliation and of course the repair. But if my research is correct and I ride off into the sunset and you will not hear a tap, ping, ding, peep from me again. Is that "Clearance!!!!"
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Whatever the spec range is, I will use the widest end of the setting as the clearance will close down as the components wear. That way I don't have to worry about how long I go between adjustments & burning valves. I do it after it hits the recommended mileage & it's convenient.
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Whatever the spec range is, I will use the widest end of the setting as the clearance will close down as the components wear. That way I don't have to worry about how long I go between adjustments & burning valves. I do it after it hits the recommended mileage & it's convenient.
Yes, that makes sense. I wish that I had done .05 mm as opposed to the .04 mm.