KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => People s200 => Topic started by: Iahawk on February 05, 2022, 07:35:17 PM
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I posted a few months back about my bad engine vibration and the curly metal shavings in my oil at the last drain. Not good. I'm still convinced it's the crank or crank bearings...and to look at them I have to pull the motor and crack the case.
So I ordered all the gaskets, o rings and oil seals that will be replaced when I open it up. All parts plus 2 new tools (special socket for the starter clutch nut and a flywheel puller) cost me about $100 USD before shipping. Very reasonable.
It was actually very easy to pull the motor, which I've never done before. First step is to strip the bodywork, which I've detailed before. then pull CVT cover, disconnect rear brake line, tire hugger, intake manifold (I left intake, carb and airbox connected as one unit), a few vacuum lines, the starter cable and stator cable, rear shocks, remove exhaust and remove the one long engine hanger bolt and nut. I supported the motor from beneath with wood and supported the front of the motor with a clamp, clamping under the valve cover and over the front seat support bar.
Then push the motor slightly down and back, while still connected to the rear wheel. Pretty easy to remove and move around. Then I took off the rear wheel and carried the motor down to my basement workbench. I'm guessing it weighs around 50 lbs?
I won't tear the engine down until I have my replacement gaskets here. Those should arrive this week (all Kymco OEM parts). I'll wait to order the new crank until I verify that it needs one. $177 USD at Solano cycle. I'll also check my local dealer.
Why go to all this trouble? I find it enjoyable to work on things. To me it's a cheap price to pay for some fun. If it needs a crank and I repalce it I'll be into this repair for about $300 USD. Lots of hobbies cost much more than $300! I'm looking forward to a fun winter project and to learn more about how these little GY6 motors go together. I've already watched a bunch of youtube videos on this...doesn't look complicated at all. Attached a few pics.
More to come.
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@hawk, you're so right about costs of fun. Keep us posted.
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8 o'clock every Tuesday evening in the basement of the Methodist church....
"Hello, my name is Hawk. I take my scooters apart and I can't help it."
"Welcome, Hawk!"
(it's OK Hawk --- I attend a like group for Nocturnal Rain Riders)
Stig
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hahahaha....I believe it is a sickness! I....must.....pull...things...apart! Even as a kid I'd try to take all kinds of things apart. My problem was (is?) that I'd usually break something in the process and not be able to put it back together, again!
Already ran into my first issue..the universal flywheel puller I bought seems to have the wrong thread pitch...it almost wants to thread in but then just keeps spinning...sigh.........
Edit - I feel dumb...left hand threads on the flywheel puller. Works like a champ, now.
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hahahaha....I believe it is a sickness! I....must.....pull...things...apart! Even as a kid I'd try to take all kinds of things apart. My problem was (is?) that I'd usually break something in the process and not be able to put it back together, again!
Already ran into my first issue..the universal flywheel puller I bought seems to have the wrong thread pitch...it almost wants to thread in but then just keeps spinning...sigh.........
Edit - I feel dumb...left hand threads on the flywheel puller. Works like a champ, now.
You shoulda been in the Navy! We took things apart regularly when they worked fine just to reassemble them!
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had to start digging in a bit..removed plastic shrouds, fan, flywheel, stator, cracked first cover and removed, then loosened starter clutch nut (used impact wrench on that one, also left hand thread like the flywheel). Will pull starter gear and starter clutch, chain and oil pump.
Not sure when gaskets will arrive so don't want to get too far into this. traveling for work this week so back at it next weekend.
Interesting to note that oil level at full is about 1" (roughly) below the crankshaft, that's higher than I would have thought.
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2 more pics
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@hawk, good job. IF you do the other side (timing side) watch whether he timing chain guiding is worn out. If so, replace.
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thanks, Ruffus, I'll be sure to take a look at that.
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I have the gaskets and o rings necessary to reassemble my 163cc Kymco motor (aka 200). You need the 2 case gaskets, cylinder gasket, head gasket and cam chain tensioner gasket plus the o ring for the cam chain tensioner screw. I also have an exhaust gasket and a new intake o ring. The motor also requires 2 new oil seals for the crank (already had those). The only other o ring that could be needed is if you replace the plastic cam chain guides, one of them has a screw with an o ring that would be replaced (mine looks fine so will leave it be).
Of course, there are additional gaskets and seals if you're taking the transmission end apart, which I'm not.
pics attached of Kymco OEM gaskets / o rings...plus some gratuitous motorcycle parts porn of my new water pump and o rings for my little Ninja!
(edit - forgot about the new rubber mount case bushings..existing ones are all somewhat torn when examined closely. Not sure how much of an effect new ones will have but I will find out)
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OK, finally got off my rear and started putting my motor back together.
Started off with installing my valves, springs and keepers (those little keepers are kind of a pain..used a magnet and assembly lube to stick them in place). Then cleaned, degreased and 'brake cleaned' the engine cases inside and out as there were lots of little pieces of old gasket material in all the crevices.
Then I installed my 2 crank seals (using assembly lube, it was easy). Next up was pressing out and installing the 3 engine hanger bushings (mine were all somewhat torn when examined very closely). Using grade 8 bolt, washers and nuts, plus various sockets I was able to push out the old and push in the new bushings.
Of course in the middle of this I sliced my finger open on one of the engine cases, bled everywhere...and also caught my towel that I had under the motor on fire - using a little butane torch to heat the engine case around the bushings. With the bleeding finally stopped and the little fire put out immediately.
Got stuck on the little bushing in the back of the motor, that the rear shock attaches to. I need a longer bolt to get it out and called it a day. I'll start again tomorrow.
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clean case and oil seal
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and method I used to push out and in the hanger bushings
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What, I say, WHAT was the source of the metal shavings? Did I sleep through that part? Gotta know, man! Gotta!
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Karl, after the teardown I found nothing! Nothing! The curly shavings were magnetic and there isn't much magnetic in this engine. I thought I'd find the smoking gun, but I got nothin! from rockers to cam, bearings, nothing looked bad. There were a few aluminum casting shavings but those wouldn't get picked up with the magnet. Found a piece of crud keeping the exhaust valve from completely closing, not sure if that would give me the shaking I had? Still a mystery.
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Hawk how frustrating is that?! All that work and NO moment of revelation? Just hope it goes back together well & no more filings - or shaking.
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I'm saying this in complete honesty.....
I did not think that there was an internal mechanical issue with this engine...as described.
But, I was certain that the Hawk was going to enjoy taking it apart.
I may or may not be right about the former, but I'm pretty confident about the latter.
Another member recently admitted that it may well be that he enjoys working on his scooter..at least as much, if not more than - riding it.
There are 3 here who come to my mind....
Absolutely 💯 % nothing the matter with that!
Stig
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I'm saying this in complete honesty.....
I did not think that there was an internal mechanical issue with this engine...as described.
But, I was certain that the Hawk was going to enjoy taking it apart.
Stig
Well I was sure hoping to find something in there but there was not a single flake of metal to be found and no excessive wear...and Stig, you're spot on...I've always wanted to tear one of these motors apart to see how everything goes together! Kind of a win-win, so far. No major engine problems and I get to disassemble and reassemble the motor!
After watching many youtube videos of guys (mostly in India?) restoring old, rusty Honda scooters and motorcycles I have no doubt these little motors are all but bulletproof - (and our little GY6 motors are based on old Honda designs, right?)
What better Father's Day gift than to get to assemble a scooter motor in the garage!
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all right, all set up..took about 40 minutes to get the garage set up and all the parts and tools brought up from the basement. Crank is in the freezer, hopefully shrinking a tiny bit. Had to run out to get more blue threadlocker.
Now waiting another 30 minutes for crank to freeze and will heat up motor case and crank bearing should slide right in.
Here's a few pics of all the parts laid out.
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Looks good! Suspected from beginning this camshafts being improperly cleaned (sandblasted) after casting.
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OK, success so far! I spent a 'perfect' Father's Day in the garage listening to music and assembling my scooter engine. For a rather introverted gearhead like me..that really is a perfect day.
Started with the crank in the freezer and heated up the case. Crank went in fairly easily (you can still see frost on the crank). Then I added the gasket and heated the right case and slipped it over the crank and bolted them together.
put the piston on the con rod, installed cylinder gasket, made sure the rings were all clocked correctly and slipped the cylinder on. This was the hardest part of the process, getting the d*mn cylinder over the piston...I ended up compressing 1 ring at a time and slowly working the cylinder down.
Then put on chain tensioner (with new gasket and o ring under screw). Installed starter and put in oil pump and oil pump chain.
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starter gear and starter clutch with left hand thread starter clutch nut
got the outer case on and the stator and the wiring all positioned properly
then installed flywheel and fan
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installed headgasket and head...then got motor to tdc and installed cam under the cam chain, installed rockers and torqued everything down
adjusted valves...10mm intake and .12mm exhaust..edit - crap - questioning my valve adjustment, now. I did .10 and .12 inches instead of mm. Will need to redo it correctly..added to my list...
installed head cover and spark plug
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...and after about 4 hours, total, the motor was reassembled...and yes, it does rotate!
Last step was installing the 3 pieces of the black plastic covers for the airflow.
I still need to add oil, so don't let me forget that step! I'll work on getting it back in the scoot over the next few days.
It was a very satisfying feeling when I put the last cover on..knowing I'd completely disassembled and reassembled my motor. It was 4 1/2 months ago when I first started tearing into the motor. That's too long to be without my S200!
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OK, 10 minutes later the valves are correctly adjusted. Easy job, especially with the motor out of the scooter!
.004" / .10 mm for intake and .005" / .12mm for exhaust.
Here's a pic of my tool I use to hold the adjuster, it's just a square head wood pocket screw bent at a 90 degree and wrapped with some electrical tape. The square head screw fits on the adjuster perfectly.
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spent from lunch until dinner time putting the scoot back together. A little challenging to do it alone..a 2nd pair of hands would have been helpful in positioning the motor, but I got it done. Hooked everything back up that I'd take apart...and it was a LOT...but I think I have all fasteners fastened, all electrical connections connected and all vacuum lines installed. Pictures were helpful (that I'd taken during disassembly) for routing the electrical connectors, etc. The 2 toughest parts were installing the rear brake line bracket under the cvt (for the life of me couldn't figure out how it went..finally got it installed) and installing the exhaust. I've had trouble with the exhaust in the past and other times no trouble at all. It's the rear 2 bolts where the exhaust attaches to the swingarm..tough to get it lined up.
Before motor installation I pulled the carb and cleaned it...would have hated to go through all this only to discover the carb was dirty and affecting the running of the scoot. Sucked it up and did the cleaning. Fresh fuel, added oil to the oil-less engine, charged battery and started her up. Took about 3 pushes of the start button to get fuel to the carb...then she fired up and idled smoothly.
Rain interrupted my progress this evening so I'll aim for an early (not Stig early!) morning ride.
Oh, and I wiped the whole scoot down with detail spray using a clean microfiber...so she's lookin good!
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Great job Hawk!
Thanks for taking us along.
Pictures please?
Stig
(last run to the Gulf....03:53am)
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thanks, Stig. I only took a couple pics during the 'rebuild'..here's one that shows the plastic-less and motor-less scoot. I think I'm holding the auto bystarter cable in the pic. Next pic is of the final product..assembled and ready to go.
I did end up taking a short (9 mile) ride last night. Turns out I was out of beer plus the scoot only had a quart of canned tru fuel in it, so a trip to the gas station and beer emporium was in order. I try to minimize the time I leave a cold 6 pack under the seat as that heats up pretty well.
I went out around 8:30 with cloudy skies and mist..it even lightly rained on me very briefly during the ride but it felt good as the day had been so hot. The scoot felt....great. It has been 7 months since I'd ridden it and I forgot how great it feels around town.
It is perfect up to about 45 mph, then the ride gets a bit jittery. The sweet spot is from 25-40. Such a different riding position and feel from both my Ninja and my Helix. Still felt great..kind of like getting back with an old girlfriend..it just feels right.
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Great job Hawk!
Thanks for taking us along.
Pictures please?
Stig
(last run to the Gulf....03:53am)
wait, I just noticed your posting time, too...you're up early even for you, right??
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Great hawk, congrats!👍👏
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final pic in this series..went for a 24 mile ride late this morning..everything is working fine, nothing shook loose or fell off, so that's good! I will correct an earlier statement where I said the scoot's sweet spot was 25-40 mph. I think it's really about 20-35 mph where it feels best. I completely understand Stig's target early morning riding speeds.
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Outstanding! Really informative post.
What's next? Har, har!
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Outstanding! Really informative post.
What's next? Har, har!
I hope nothing!...but we all know that isn't going to happen...I do have a master brake cylinder rebuild kit and caliper rebuild kit for the Helix...sitting in a box...hmmmmm.....
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Good news Hawk. Job well done!
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I do have a master brake cylinder rebuild kit and caliper rebuild kit for the Helix...sitting in a box...hmmmmm.....
After what you've done Hawk, those two repairs should be a cinch. Although the c-clip in the master cylinder can be a bitch to remove/replace. As for the sweet spot, does it seem low? My Cali 200 (169cc) glides effortlessly at 35-45mph (actual).
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After what you've done Hawk, those two repairs should be a cinch. Although the c-clip in the master cylinder can be a bitch to remove/replace. As for the sweet spot, does it seem low? My Cali 200 (169cc) glides effortlessly at 35-45mph (actual).
I guess I'm referring to the 'comfort' sweet spot speed (?) Very comfortable at those speeds. The faster I go (it will hit an indicated low to mid 60's in perfect conditions - downhill) the rougher the ride gets. A stiff, cheap suspension with not a lot travel doesn't = a nice ride at higher speeds on anything less than perfect pavement.
I rode my Helix last night..and with the foot longer wheelbase and softer suspension it's a joy to ride at highway speeds. None of the jackhammer-like feeling in the bars at speed.
I still love the S200..but it's my 'around town' scoot and will choose my other rides for higher speeds.
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@hawk, check after a while the sparkplugs color.
lf you happy with (greyish/lightbrownish) adjust the gas a little bit richer, should revv smoother at mentioned speed.
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@hawk, check after a while the sparkplugs color.
lf you happy with (greyish/lightbrownish) adjust the gas a little bit richer, should revv smoother at mentioned speed.
Ruffus, I may not be clear in my descriptions...the 'uncomfortable at higher speed' is purely due to the suspension design..nothign to do with the engine / cvt, etc. It's just a cheap scooter suspension with very little travel that is not comfortable (for me) at higher speeds on rougher roads. The higher speeds, combined with the concrete roads with expansion strips, gives the scoot a kind of 'pogo stick' feel at higher speeds. The bars also give a feeling of moving up and down quickly, similar to a jackhammer feel.
If this was my only scoot I wouldn't know any different...but comparing it to my Helix and Ninja 300 it has a poor feel at higher speeds. No worries, though, because it's perfectly fine around town. It accelerates quickly and handles well. It's just not comfortable over big bumps or at higher speed. I just got in from a 17 mile ride around town. Beautiful day..cloudy and in the 70's! (23 or 24 C), perfect day for a ride!
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Ah, my bad, got it, it's simply like it is.
As my Grand Dink is wobbly in certain conditions.
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Yeah Hawk, in the dark going out for my coffee I am freq riding in the low to mid 20's - especially when raining and dark!
Coming home a touch over 30/35mph if full daylight. Rarely over low 30's if raining hard then.
I always notice that I'm riding home 3>5 mph faster on the big wheeled Liberty than on the 12's of the LIKE.
It is a nice speed to enjoy the countryside. I'm in no hurry.
As for the bumpy roads - I planned my routes years ago to avoid lousy roads as the LIKE is a miserable riding thing over pot-holes.
Remember> that LIKE has been under the impression that 2 normal Asians have been aboard for the past decade......6'4" 263lbs.....and the suspension is thusly compressed as well....and even the extra 4" I built into the seat makes it just comfortable. But, I do not like listening to the plastic front fender rattlying over the rough stuff.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXBpmQ1N/000.jpg)
Stig
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Remember> that LIKE has been under the impression that 2 normal Asians have been aboard for the past decade......6'4" 263lbs.....and the suspension is thusly compressed as well....
Stig
Stig for the win!
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I’ve put about 140 miles on the scoot since the motor ‘reassembly’ and there are no oil leaks. I’m actually kind of pleasantly surprised because I would have bet that something would be seeping / leaking / dripping! I also didn’t have any left over parts form the rebuild…that’s another pleasant surprise.
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Quick question, what are the oil seal sizes for the engine? Also where did you purchase them? I've been searching for new seals for a 163cc and I don't know where to find the sizes.
Thanks for the help
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sorry, can't recall the sizes but I ordered them from my local Kymco dealer. You can also try Leeson's online ordering tool, they seem to be popular.
I think they are probably the same size as the crank oil seals on any 125 or 150cc GY6 motor.
https://www.leesonsarcticcat.com/
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Still a mystery.
Excellent drama! We, like Dr.Watson, are waiting for the denouement! (Look it up:-)
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@Mgraniel, pls see pic
-original is 19.8x30x5mm
- I use jap brand 20x30x5mm with good success
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sorry, can't recall the sizes but I ordered them from my local Kymco dealer. You can also try Leeson's online ordering tool, they seem to be popular.
Any large bearing supplier will have these in stock. Bring the original with you to the order desk:
https://www.bcbearing.com/products/Bearings