KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: Henry on November 26, 2021, 03:05:18 PM
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Hello,
My DT300 from 2011 has problems to start !
Cold start is ok after 3 sec cranking (minimum, when it should be half 1 !), hot start is a massive pain, it needs at least 10 tries, hopefully battery is ok !
After starting, everything is fine, but it's idling weirdly, sometimes the idle is at 2000rpm then it needs 10 secs to come down to 1700. It goes for a while after resetting TPS/ISC, but comes back after a few starts.
No error code on dash
Spark plug is OK, new + 0.6 gap
Coil is new, stator ok, pulser ok, 14.4V on charge, coil is OK.
Cylinder pressure is OK, 10 bars when the workshop manual says 12+/- 2
Leak pressure test is OK, no leak through valves, 5 psi (on 100) through rings (cols engine = normal)
Valve clearance OK
Fuel pump pressure OK
ISC resistance OK
Injector resistance OK, seems clean, sprays normaly (I think, I tested into a plastic jar, looks like a strong mist)
I took the throttle body for a clean, it was very dirty ! Cleaned everything
I messed up with the TPS, I didn't check its position before removing...
I have the diag Fi tool ordered, but I don't know the value the TPS has to reach when the throttle is closed.
I hope this will solve my problem !
Please don't hesitate if you think about something else
Thanks !
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I have the Fi diag tool now
I moved the TPS according to the manual, it was at 0.77 at pos 0, it but it back to 0.6
But I still have the same problem, + the idle is higher now, a bit above 2000rpm, then after a long time (around 20 secs), goes back et 1800.
What a shame, I'm not desperate, but close to :-(
The data reading show .02 V for the O2 sensor at iddle on cold engine, could that be the problem ? It seems as he engine is cold the value should be higher no? .02 is lean, very lean when on a cold start it should be rich ! The O2 heater is on till around 70°celcius. Is that normal ?
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I have the Fi diag tool now
I moved the TPS according to the manual, it was at 0.77 at pos 0, it but it back to 0.6
But I still have the same problem, + the idle is higher now, a bit above 2000rpm, then after a long time (around 20 secs), goes back et 1800.
What a shame, I'm not desperate, but close to :-(
The data reading show .02 V for the O2 sensor at iddle on cold engine, could that be the problem ? It seems as he engine is cold the value should be higher no? .02 is lean, very lean when on a cold start it should be rich ! The O2 heater is on till around 70°celcius. Is that normal ?
I would recommend setting your TPS based on percentage. As I recall (take with grain of salt- I'm old and recall questionable!) set to achieve nearly 100% at wide open throttle (WOT) and see what you get with throttle closed. And how it affects idle. Take a look at that first page when running to see what the target rpm is for idle. Should be 1700 +/- 100.
You are right, a cold start should be richer that operating temp. Yes, the heater will cycle off and on to some preset schedule.
Idle is set in the computer and cannot be changed by grungies like you and me. The ISC, idle speed control is a motor driven valve that opens when you close the throttle. First look to see if someone previously tried to adjust the throttle stops. Adjusting is set and should NEVER be altered. The ISC may not be running properly. It is a motor. 5 volts, I think. You may have to rig (cut open) a USB cable to get the black and red wires for 5 volts to run the motor on the bench.
These systems are super reliable, very durable and RARELY malfunction. The throttle body sensors are really well made and the ECU is very effective. The weak areas are the spring in the TPS that removes any slack so it follows the throttle precisely. Lack of lube or dirt will screw this up. MAP (manifold air pressure) sensor is sensitive to dirt and position since it can be mounted in one of eight positions. This may have been changed by the previous fingers.
Go one thing at a time and report back. I have a DT300i and an analyzer tool so I (and others) can back you up. We can even get on the phone (if you are in the US) and fiddle.
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Thanks Karl for your answer !
I'll try to set the TPS based on %, for now, at .6V at 0%, it shows 90% at WOT. At that position the iddle speed targeted shows 1700 on the diag tool.
I'll check O2 value on a real cold start, yesterday the scooter was off for about 2 hours when I checked.
Simple check for the ISC is take it out of the throttle body, plug it and turn the key (witout starting ;)), you will see it moving, you can even perform a TPS/ISC reset, you'll see the ISC going to 100% and come back. The ISC works in my case.
Concerning the TPS, I didn't know there is a spring inside, that sounds logic but I never thought about it ! Is there a way to access and clean that ?
The MAP sensor looks clean, no dirt under it. Are you sure the position could affect it ? As it is made of 6 holes in circle + a central one. The previous fingers must be mine ;D
The TPS setting I changed yesterday did nothing concerning my starting problem, still hard to start and almost impossible when the engine is hot, I still have to try and try several times, and sometimes I get a massive explosion through the exhaust ! That could bend the valves !!
The weird thing is that I almost have the same issue on my Downtown 350, 4 years old and 15k miles. I changed my 300 for the 350 4 years ago because all this starting problems were an issue for my job, I work in medical and I have to go to different locations into the city (Brussels) for emergencies, I needed something reliable and the 300 was a problem.
I kept it because the 350 is the same base and a lot of parts are exchangeable. Since the 350 is acting the same way, I took the decision to investigate on the 300 and try to solve the problem and maybe use it daily and the fix the 350 and keep one stored in good shape incase of problem.
I need to find the issue !
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Thanks Karl for your answer !
I'll try to set the TPS based on %, for now, at .6V at 0%, it shows 90% at WOT. At that position the iddle speed targeted shows 1700 on the diag tool.
I'll check O2 value on a real cold start, yesterday the scooter was off for about 2 hours when I checked.
Simple check for the ISC is take it out of the throttle body, plug it and turn the key (witout starting ;)), you will see it moving, you can even perform a TPS/ISC reset, you'll see the ISC going to 100% and come back. The ISC works in my case.
Concerning the TPS, I didn't know there is a spring inside, that sounds logic but I never thought about it ! Is there a way to access and clean that ?
The MAP sensor looks clean, no dirt under it. Are you sure the position could affect it ? As it is made of 6 holes in circle + a central one. The previous fingers must be mine ;D
The TPS setting I changed yesterday did nothing concerning my starting problem, still hard to start and almost impossible when the engine is hot, I still have to try and try several times, and sometimes I get a massive explosion through the exhaust ! That could bend the valves !!
The weird thing is that I almost have the same issue on my Downtown 350, 4 years old and 15k miles. I changed my 300 for the 350 4 years ago because all this starting problems were an issue for my job, I work in medical and I have to go to different locations into the city (Brussels) for emergencies, I needed something reliable and the 300 was a problem.
I kept it because the 350 is the same base and a lot of parts are exchangeable. Since the 350 is acting the same way, I took the decision to investigate on the 300 and try to solve the problem and maybe use it daily and the fix the 350 and keep one stored in good shape incase of problem.
I need to find the issue !
Yeah, you need to fix that!
Explosion in exhaust is fuel build-up, I would think. Also two similar machines, same problem? What is common to both? Air and fuel.
Your EFI settings may not be the cause.....
This thing about MAP position is hearsay on this forum. There are past discussions that claim the position seems to improve the idle.
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No engine or fault lights should mean that the sensors are ok and within range. Even then the engine can still start and run with some faulty sensor readings. When starting the bike try opening the throttle whilst pressing the start button.
If it is occurring on both the DT300 and DT350, it could be bad fuel.
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I don't think the fuel quality is involved, we have very good fuel quality here in Belgium, I only give 98 oct to both scooters and from different gas pumps.
I just thought about something... Could it be the battery ?! I didn't check for battery voltage as the charging voltage is ok (around 14.4V) on both scooters. I quite often check the charging voltage (I have a reading on the 350 dashboard) but I have no clue about the voltage of the battery itself. The battery on the 350 is the factory one, nearly 6 yrs old, the scooter stays outside at night, temp goes quite frequently under 32F in winter in Brussels.
After checking, battery is at 11.9 on the 350 ! Can't check on the 300 cause my garage is not at home, but I remember I replaced it about 7 years ago.
Could be the issue, so simple ! How didn't I think about that before ???
I ordered a new battery.
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I don't think the fuel quality is involved, we have very good fuel quality here in Belgium, I only give 98 oct to both scooters and from different gas pumps.
I just thought about something... Could it be the battery ?! I didn't check for battery voltage as the charging voltage is ok (around 14.4V) on both scooters. I quite often check the charging voltage (I have a reading on the 350 dashboard) but I have no clue about the voltage of the battery itself. The battery on the 350 is the factory one, nearly 6 yrs old, the scooter stays outside at night, temp goes quite frequently under 32F in winter in Brussels.
After checking, battery is at 11.9 on the 350 ! Can't check on the 300 cause my garage is not at home, but I remember I replaced it about 7 years ago.
Could be the issue, so simple ! How didn't I think about that before ???
I ordered a new battery.
Battery voltage under what conditions?
1. Absolutely no load (maybe the clock but key off) 12.6 is the fully charged max.
2. Key on (but not starting) 11.5 is what is normal with lights on in USA
3. STARTING (but not running) 9.5 absolute minimum. This is the voltage where "no spark" happens.
4. RUNNING (at idle) 13 and up to 14.5 is normal range.
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Battery voltage under what conditions?
1. Absolutely no load (maybe the clock but key off) 12.6 is the fully charged max.
2. Key on (but not starting) 11.5 is what is normal with lights on in USA
3. STARTING (but not running) 9.5 absolute minimum. This is the voltage where "no spark" happens.
4. RUNNING (at idle) 13 and up to 14.5 is normal range.
No load, key off, 11.9V
Running at iddle, between 14 ans 14.5V
So charging is not an issue, but the battery seems tired !
I'll monitor while crancking, disconnecting the sparkplug cap incase it starts
Edit : I checked battery voltage on the 300, 13.5V !!! No load, scooter switched off for 2 days. I didn't have the key with me so no check while crancking, but that's weird.
I've had a lot of motorbikes in my life, nerver seen that...
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Unfortunately the battery was not the problem...
My next investigation will be the fuel pump, I'll pop it off and see... Maybe the filter is clogged, could be, maybe...
I'm fed up with that thing, I already spent way too much time troubleshooting :(
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Back to the original issue - it was difficulty when starting hot but ok when cold? Could be the oxygen sensor or ECU.
Also remove you seat and look for any vacuum leaks, e.g. breather hoses from the crankcase and air intake. Look for any wires rubbing on anything.
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Hello,
You mentioned that you have a Fi diagnostic tool, check all the value as shown in the picture (diagnostic report).
Pay attention to the ignition timing and water temperature sensor when engine warm, and also reference voltage for O2 when engine is off (ignition on). You ask about O2 sensor behavior, when you turn on the engine, ECU works in open loop mode until the sensor heats up, that is why you have low voltage readings at start. When engine get warm up you should have O2 voltage cycling. Another very important thing, during the engine starting (cranking) ECU always work in open loop until starts so there is no way O2 sensor creates your warm start problems.
After you check everyting on list, we can move on ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/KQGqXx4.jpg)
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Hello,
You mentioned that you have a Fi diagnostic tool, check all the value as shown in the picture (diagnostic report).
Pay attention to the ignition timing and water temperature sensor when engine warm, and also reference voltage for O2 when engine is off (ignition on). You ask about O2 sensor behavior, when you turn on the engine, ECU works in open loop mode until the sensor heats up, that is why you have low voltage readings at start. When engine get warm up you should have O2 voltage cycling. Another very important thing, during the engine starting (cranking) ECU always work in open loop until starts so there is no way O2 sensor creates your warm start problems.
After you check everyting on list, we can move on ;)
[/quote]
Thanks for the checklist ! I will check tomorrow and report.
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Hello,
You mentioned that you have a Fi diagnostic tool, check all the value as shown in the picture (diagnostic report).
Pay attention to the ignition timing and water temperature sensor when engine warm, and also reference voltage for O2 when engine is off (ignition on). You ask about O2 sensor behavior, when you turn on the engine, ECU works in open loop mode until the sensor heats up, that is why you have low voltage readings at start. When engine get warm up you should have O2 voltage cycling. Another very important thing, during the engine starting (cranking) ECU always work in open loop until starts so there is no way O2 sensor creates your warm start problems.
After you check everyting on list, we can move on ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/KQGqXx4.jpg)
I checked with the Fi tool, everything looks within specs. I did that on the Downtown 350, I have no access to my 300 for now, but they both suffer the same problem and the specs from the 300 are identical to the 350 (Sensors are the same)
Warm engine : I don't know if it is normal but on page 4 the heater activation goes on & off quite quickly and the engine is hot ! (89°C), I did 2 pics of page 4, one on one off.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/FqLTZa.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poFqLTZaj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/iNgxEX.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poiNgxEXj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/dxvEtq.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/podxvEtqj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/bSLufM.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pobSLufMj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/7RKNEV.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm7RKNEVj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/EwKN7X.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmEwKN7Xj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/vzLCbr.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnvzLCbrj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/eJlZ4J.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmeJlZ4Jj)
Cold engine :
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/OIvATs.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmOIvATsj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/miyOjL.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmmiyOjLj)
At WOT
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/Zr6bPE.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnZr6bPEj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/CsmTW6.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poCsmTW6j)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/2ILIRn.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm2ILIRnj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/Jm37CS.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnJm37CSj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/tStfvx.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pntStfvxj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/FtjawC.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmFtjawCj)
What do you think ?
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I checked with the Fi tool, everything looks within specs. I did that on the Downtown 350, I have no access to my 300 for now, but they both suffer the same problem and the specs from the 300 are identical to the 350 (Sensors are the same)
Warm engine : I don't know if it is normal but on page 4 the heater activation goes on & off quite quickly and the engine is hot ! (89°C), I did 2 pics of page 4, one on one off.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/FqLTZa.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poFqLTZaj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/iNgxEX.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poiNgxEXj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/dxvEtq.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/podxvEtqj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/bSLufM.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pobSLufMj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/7RKNEV.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm7RKNEVj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/EwKN7X.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmEwKN7Xj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/vzLCbr.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnvzLCbrj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/eJlZ4J.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmeJlZ4Jj)
Cold engine :
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/OIvATs.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmOIvATsj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/miyOjL.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmmiyOjLj)
At WOT
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/Zr6bPE.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnZr6bPEj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/CsmTW6.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poCsmTW6j)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/2ILIRn.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm2ILIRnj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/Jm37CS.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnJm37CSj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/tStfvx.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pntStfvxj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/FtjawC.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmFtjawCj)
What do you think ?
Looks pretty normal to me. I think there is a common power interruption possibility that would be sensed as turning the systems off and on. Something that would not be sensed as a fault, hence no code. Could also be a bad plug cap and/or plug wire. Also could go back to low voltage to the ECU while cranking. I know you measured really good voltage while trying to start measured at the battery. But what is the voltage AT the ECU?
You have been handed a toughie on this one! Two machines with the same symptoms but otherwise perfectly envious performance otherwise. Write down everything that has been ruled out. No dealer tech ANYWHERE would even be allowed to sort this out. Right now, YOU are the world's ranking true authority. Why? You are there, you have the analyzer tool (that most US dealers do not have), you have the motivation to solve because you actually use this mode of transport daily, you have the ability (demonstrated) potential and I will think up a couple more reasons soon!
We all will benefit from your discovery.
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Looks pretty normal to me. I think there is a common power interruption possibility that would be sensed as turning the systems off and on. Something that would not be sensed as a fault, hence no code. Could also be a bad plug cap and/or plug wire. Also could go back to low voltage to the ECU while cranking. I know you measured really good voltage while trying to start measured at the battery. But what is the voltage AT the ECU?
You have been handed a toughie on this one! Two machines with the same symptoms but otherwise perfectly envious performance otherwise. Write down everything that has been ruled out. No dealer tech ANYWHERE would even be allowed to sort this out. Right now, YOU are the world's ranking true authority. Why? You are there, you have the analyzer tool (that most US dealers do not have), you have the motivation to solve because you actually use this mode of transport daily, you have the ability (demonstrated) potential and I will think up a couple more reasons soon!
We all will benefit from your discovery.
Thanks for your kind words :) but I think I have no authority, otherwise I wouldn't come here to get advises concerning my problem ! (2 actually ;D)
I'm sure all dealers have the Fi diagnostic tool, otherwise how would they do to point a bad sensor for example ?? Whey charge for all of them ? That would be a massive fraud !
As you said I have the motivation, that is absolutely right ! I could buy another scooter, but if I can avoid, I will. Buying another Downtown would make me a used spare parts dealer !
Coil/cable/cap/spark plug are new, I don't believe that is the problem.
A faulty ECU could, but how to make sure ? I'm not willing to buy a new one to check. My dealer doesn't take new parts back and has no spare to test
Maybe the engine quality overall is involved ? I ride from 2 to 10 times a day, every day (for my job), short distances in town, from 5 to 15 minutes rides. Maybe this kind of usage kills the internals ? I took compression mesures on both scooters, both are at 10 bars (hot), repair manual says 12bars +/-2, but my compression tool maybe crap... But then, if it can start when cold and parked outside at 2°C (35F) after a 2 sec cranking + little bit on the throttle, it should start easily when the engine is hot if engine compression was the problem !
I'm lost !
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@Henry, as a far shot,
how about to try changing ECU from one to the other scoot. If it's easy possible, to see how the motor reacts.
I would rinse this MAP sensor with brake cleaner to be sure its free. Don't touch the inner part of this sensor. Drying with moderate pressured air.
Please make sure your intake system is 100% tight, clamps, o-rings, injector, etc.
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ECU value are great!
Just one info, when engine is hot do you have O2 voltage cycling from 0.1 to 0.9?
You dont need to clean or check any sensor, not any more, you have perfect value...trouble is something else!
Take of fuel pump and ecu relay check for corrosion, also if relay looks clear, change that two relay with high and low beam (those two works fine I assume).....then test hot start! Check manual for relay location, if you cant, I can post it!
Weird fact is you have 2 same issue with 2 scooters, there is possibility it is maybe, I said again maybe fuel problem. So after you check relay, you can try buy some fuel aditive for petrol engine. Im from Croatia and here is fuel very bad, so I can tell you from first hand, depends from gas station to gas station I can feel big difference when starting engine, and vibrations when I cruze at 5500rpm.
About battery voltage, yes It can make trouble with ECU, when cranking voltage drop to low and ECU goes crazy and can manifest in many ways. However you should have biggest voltage drop when you cold start at couple celsius.
We need check cople more thing before we conclude ECU problem.
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This is a shot in the dark BUT my 2013 was purchased in 2016 as new, old stock. Whatever fuel that was in it was from 2013! Very soon that old fuel turned up some "slime" that partially clogged the injector. Symptoms were hard start in that it did not start within two revolutions. There were falters and flame-outs. No codes.
The fuel cap had been vented as soon as it was home. Starting voltage checked was above 10.5 and charging output nominal, like yours.
Pulled the injector and inspected spray plate (darn holes are SO SMALL even under magnification!). Observed NO SPRAY during key on/self check/prime. Disconnected fuel hose from injector inlet and pushed it on the injector spray nozzle. Cycled key on/off many times and short cranks many times until about 1 cc collected in a bottle cap. There was some snot-lookin' stuff in the cap that was back-flushed out. Put everything back and it fired right up normally! Have not had a problem since!
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@Henry, as a far shot,
how about to try changing ECU from one to the other scoot. If it's easy possible, to see how the motor reacts.
I would rinse this MAP sensor with brake cleaner to be sure its free. Don't touch the inner part of this sensor. Drying with moderate pressured air.
Please make sure your intake system is 100% tight, clamps, o-rings, injector, etc.
I'm not sure ECUs are the same, they have different part numbers, I checked on Kymco-parts.
I'll rince the map sensor with brake cleaner as you suggest
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ECU value are great!
Just one info, when engine is hot do you have O2 voltage cycling from 0.1 to 0.9?
You dont need to clean or check any sensor, not any more, you have perfect value...trouble is something else!
Take of fuel pump and ecu relay check for corrosion, also if relay looks clear, change that two relay with high and low beam (those two works fine I assume).....then test hot start! Check manual for relay location, if you cant, I can post it!
Weird fact is you have 2 same issue with 2 scooters, there is possibility it is maybe, I said again maybe fuel problem. So after you check relay, you can try buy some fuel aditive for petrol engine. Im from Croatia and here is fuel very bad, so I can tell you from first hand, depends from gas station to gas station I can feel big difference when starting engine, and vibrations when I cruze at 5500rpm.
About battery voltage, yes It can make trouble with ECU, when cranking voltage drop to low and ECU goes crazy and can manifest in many ways. However you should have biggest voltage drop when you cold start at couple celsius.
We need check cople more thing before we conclude ECU problem.
I don't think the 02 voltage was cycling, or just a bit, I didn't see the value going higher than 0.08, I will check tomorrow ! Could be the issue ?
Fuel here in Brussels is very good quality, I feed both scooters with 98 from branded gas station (Total, Esso, Q8...)
I will also check the relays for corrosion, I never thought about that, that also could be an issue as my scooter stays outside, not covered at all. Humidity is high in Belgium.
On the 300 I had corrosion on the frame, I once cleaned the ground bolt that looked rusted, no change, but I didn't check the relays.
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This is a shot in the dark BUT my 2013 was purchased in 2016 as new, old stock. Whatever fuel that was in it was from 2013! Very soon that old fuel turned up some "slime" that partially clogged the injector. Symptoms were hard start in that it did not start within two revolutions. There were falters and flame-outs. No codes.
The fuel cap had been vented as soon as it was home. Starting voltage checked was above 10.5 and charging output nominal, like yours.
Pulled the injector and inspected spray plate (darn holes are SO SMALL even under magnification!). Observed NO SPRAY during key on/self check/prime. Disconnected fuel hose from injector inlet and pushed it on the injector spray nozzle. Cycled key on/off many times and short cranks many times until about 1 cc collected in a bottle cap. There was some snot-lookin' stuff in the cap that was back-flushed out. Put everything back and it fired right up normally! Have not had a problem since!
I also have pops & bangs sometimes, when I crank for a few times then bang ! Or, when I stop accelerating at mid range, around 4k rpm, there is a bang, at the moment I let the throttle go back, that doesn't happen a lot, maybe once a week, but it happend.
I took the injector off and observed the spray pattern when turning the key on (without crancking), it seemed quite regular, I'll try to video that. I'll inspect the injector with a magnifier to make sure it is clean, and I'll try your reverse method to back flush it, I never though doing that but I will do it tomorrow for sure !
What do you mean by "The fuel cap had been vented" ? My question may sound weird but my english is far from perfect (I'm French ;D)
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I also have pops & bangs sometimes, when I crank for a few times then bang ! Or, when I stop accelerating at mid range, around 4k rpm, there is a bang, at the moment I let the throttle go back, that doesn't happen a lot, maybe once a week, but it happend.
I took the injector off and observed the spray pattern when turning the key on (without crancking), it seemed quite regular, I'll try to video that. I'll inspect the injector with a magnifier to make sure it is clean, and I'll try your reverse method to back flush it, I never though doing that but I will do it tomorrow for sure !
What do you mean by "The fuel cap had been vented" ? My question may sound weird but my english is far from perfect (I'm French ;D)
Your english certainly fooled me! Better than most of us yanks born here! Har, har!
The vent valves for nearly all two wheelers stick shut and starve the engine for fuel. Carburetor engines just quit and are a bear to relight. EFI idle surges and/or goes high and at road speed lose power. I have vented the gas cap on nearly all of our bikes since 2005 because of this sticking valve. Very small hole: #60 drill about right....
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@Henry, even ECUs part numbers aren't the same, IF connectors fit each other, I would give it a go.
-if there would be an electronic fault, you would see a DTC on your diagnostic tool
-leaves us to more trivial options like open circuits on relais, contact failures on connectors, by-air somewhere in your intake channel (injector, o-rings, vacuum lines, intake manifold, etc)
-fuel delivery in general might cause such a behaviour too, so pls go over fuel lines/pressure again
-pls take the air filter completely out for testing
-a frailed/loose cable (ground?) somewhere, which reacts/causes after being warmed up
-corroded connectors down to this cableshoes within fuse box
- O2-sensor in your exhaust pipe has 4(four) cables, all intact and plugs free of corrosion
-handlebar switches corrosion of all kind
-burnt out connector between generator/regulator
-second air system pipes and hoses messed up/clogged/melted.
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@Henry, even ECUs part numbers aren't the same, IF connectors fit each other, I would give it a go.
He can try swap ECU only if DT350 is Euro 3, because Euro 4 have EVAP system, he mention DT350 is 4 years old, It should be Euro 4
-if there would be an electronic fault, you would see a DTC on your diagnostic tool
It is more complicated then "dtc will pop out". In 15 years ECU diagnostic I have encountered many illogical problems and I can tell you ECU self-diagnosis is unreliable...very much!
@Henry
You must have O2 voltage cycling on idle when engine is warm, also when you hit throttle you should have spike to 0.9, and zero when you leave throttle (fuel cut off).. pls play with that little bit and write results here! Maybe it is clue for something...
Ruffus write very good check list, you should follow that!
My DT also stay all the time outside and I have habit once in year spray non water proof connectors with contact cleaner just for prevention!
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I checked quite a lot of things today
I checked O2 sensor voltage when the engine was hot and running, at idle the voltage doesn't change, 0.07V, but on throttle it goes from this value to 0.90V.
I tried to start without the fuel tank cap, no change.
I back washed the injector, clean petrol came out.
I measured fuel pressure : 2.9 bars. Should be 3 but my measuring device is a cheap one, so it could be 3 !
I took the fuel pump out to inspect, I have no clue if the filter is supposed to look like this
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/E7j4uX.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmE7j4uXj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/VRjxUQ.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnVRjxUQj)
The tank looks clean
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/wQZYU2.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/powQZYU2j)
The fuel pump o-ring that seals in between the pump and the tank was very loose, I put it back cause I didn't have any spare but I will replace it asap.
I tried to start with the air box disconnected, no change, it starts, but hardly, as usual.
I unplugged almost everything I could see, no sign of corrosion into plugs.
I checked ECU relay, clean. I swapped it with low beam relay, no change.
I couldn't try to swap it with the 300 because I have to dismantle many body parts on both machines and I didn't have enough time to do so.
All air lines seemed normal, the throttle body is firmly in place, maybe I should take the throttle body manifold off to inspect ? It looks really sturdy, I don't see why the gasket would let air go into, otherwise it would be rough even after start, no?
I spend to much time on that "thing" :-\
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@Henry, I still think it's somehow "by-air" related.
-intake manifold,
-vacuum tubes,
-manifold o-ring or gasket,
-false air caused by an worn out throttle axle,
-injector o-ring,
-hose-clamps pinch not tight,
- intake manifold test: out, spray inside with a little fuel, dust outside with baby powder or chalk dust, if there is a hair gap, it shows on powder.
Three more thoughts:
A) if you separete those 3-pronged plug between generator and regulator, did you see burn-signs on its plastic body?
If yes, could mean your regulator was overcharged and caused erratic in your ECU.
Q: did you change your regulator for a new one?
B) both battery cables OFF battery, hold them together for a minute or so, to discharge your ECUs diodes.
C) take a cable of appr. 10mm2 and connect your
battery MINUS with your motor GROUND close to its starter motor to have a 100% circuit.
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Your fuel filter is over half blocked by that black stuff! The filter is a white nylon-plastic-screen thingy. That black stuff is some kind of Martian snot that should not be there!
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@CROSSBOLT, this looks to me like a pattern on a fabric.. those black thingys....reminds me of a babys stocking..
@Henry, maybe this link unravels something..
At chapter 13. is a ECU testing diagram....
-check the tilt switch too
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://kymco.at/pub/media/Download/Kymco/Downtown300iFehlercode.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjT_PG6jeT0AhWTg_0HHaRTAJMQFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NYgIIcBUDGUBOzA8Ouyh7
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@CROSSBOLT, this looks to me like a pattern on a fabric.. those black thingys....reminds me of a babys stocking..
@Henry, maybe this link unravels something..
At chapter 13. is a ECU testing diagram....
-check the tilt switch too
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://kymco.at/pub/media/Download/Kymco/Downtown300iFehlercode.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjT_PG6jeT0AhWTg_0HHaRTAJMQFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NYgIIcBUDGUBOzA8Ouyh7
Good point about the tilt switch! Could be a gremlin.
Stig found a replacement for his fuel pump at the Yamaha camp...for WAY less than the Kymco assembly....AND the filters on old and new (if memory serves..) were pristine white screen. Now, if that is for certain blocking flow I would think it would only bother at max speeds.
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@Henry, I still think it's somehow "by-air" related.
-intake manifold,
-vacuum tubes,
-manifold o-ring or gasket,
-false air caused by an worn out throttle axle,
-injector o-ring,
-hose-clamps pinch not tight,
- intake manifold test: out, spray inside with a little fuel, dust outside with baby powder or chalk dust, if there is a hair gap, it shows on powder.
Three more thoughts:
A) if you separete those 3-pronged plug between generator and regulator, did you see burn-signs on its plastic body?
If yes, could mean your regulator was overcharged and caused erratic in your ECU.
Q: did you change your regulator for a new one?
B) both battery cables OFF battery, hold them together for a minute or so, to discharge your ECUs diodes.
C) take a cable of appr. 10mm2 and connect your
battery MINUS with your motor GROUND close to its starter motor to have a 100% circuit.
Interesting tip with the baby powder ! I have no baby but baby powder ;D
I don't get the how to :-[ I spray with fuel the inside of the manifold (through the hole left by the throttle body removed ?) or the outside close to the gasket ?
A : plugs in perfect condition, charging is OK, 14,4V at 4kRPM
B : I'll give it a try
C : I'll do so, I need to find a piece of 10mm2
I already sprayed around the manifold gasket with brake cleaner, if there was a leak, the brakes should be aspired and the idle should be rough but no, it passed. I could also spray around the throttle body and the sensors, I'll try tomorrow.
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Your fuel filter is over half blocked by that black stuff! The filter is a white nylon-plastic-screen thingy. That black stuff is some kind of Martian snot that should not be there!
I don't think so, it looks like, but the black dots are actually fuel blocked into the plastic pattern, it reacts with the light probably, when you touch it, the fuel goes out of the square and it becomes white. Strange but true !
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@CROSSBOLT, this looks to me like a pattern on a fabric.. those black thingys....reminds me of a babys stocking..
@Henry, maybe this link unravels something..
At chapter 13. is a ECU testing diagram....
-check the tilt switch too
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://kymco.at/pub/media/Download/Kymco/Downtown300iFehlercode.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjT_PG6jeT0AhWTg_0HHaRTAJMQFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NYgIIcBUDGUBOzA8Ouyh7
If the tilt switch was involved, it would be after start no ? I'll test it anyway !
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He can try swap ECU only if DT350 is Euro 3, because Euro 4 have EVAP system, he mention DT350 is 4 years old, It should be Euro 4
It is more complicated then "dtc will pop out". In 15 years ECU diagnostic I have encountered many illogical problems and I can tell you ECU self-diagnosis is unreliable...very much!
@Henry
You must have O2 voltage cycling on idle when engine is warm, also when you hit throttle you should have spike to 0.9, and zero when you leave throttle (fuel cut off).. pls play with that little bit and write results here! Maybe it is clue for something...
Ruffus write very good check list, you should follow that!
My DT also stay all the time outside and I have habit once in year spray non water proof connectors with contact cleaner just for prevention!
My DT350 is from 2016 and is euro3 !
The O2 sensor in not cycling at idle, stays at 0.07, it does cycle to 0.90V when I hit throttle, I will check when I leave throttle if it goes to 0. The fact that the O2 sensor does not cycle at idle could reveal something ? That would be a good news !
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Oh here is so much troubleshooting lol
About any air leak ...etc.. you can test that with Fi tool, just watch MAP pressure value, it should be steady on idle like 35-45 (also observing rpm so you will now why pressure rise or drop) if you have steady rpm and your pressure change, that is indication for something!
You dont need to test ECU with multimetar like Ruffus write, you do all that with FI tool, dont waste time
Also tilt swtich is good according the FI tool!
About that black stuff on fuel filter, I dont think that make any issue because you have good pressure!
Conclude; ECU read all good value, so could be wrong handling through the software or my theory (read bellow) 8)
O2 sensor cycling on idle is way how ECU preform injection timing however it need some time to start cycling you should put some rpm-s. Not cyclinging on idle can indicate air leak (you can test that observing MAP pressure or baby powder method), O2 sensor problem or ECU software problem, in my experience I encountered all three problems ;D
I write you before... try play with throttle and observe O2 behaviour and report here...
Now I will write what I think what is the problem (my fameous theory), after read all post my conclusion is FUEL! I know first you gonna think it is premimu fuel must be good etc... However you have trouble with two identical scooter, identical hot start problem....and you said you feed them with 98 fuel, that could be a trick!
Well, we should look wider picture, EFI in DT300/50 is basic I would say primitive if we compare some other systems...
System lacks of auto-adjusting feature for fuel octane, so it can make trouble advancing ignition timing during start because of ignition map limitiation if you pour higher octain fuel. When engine is cold ECU advance igntion more then hot, that is why you dont have a problem, however that changes when engine is warm, there is no need for too much advanced igntion and ECU retard it and makes trouble beacause of fuel resistance (bigger preigntion time). What I wanna said, iginition map is fixed and adjusting for higher octain fuel is not possbile so you should remove all the fuel and put 95 octain fuel, start engine leave it work some time to clean all remain fuel, get some rpm-s (I assume you cant drive because it is not in one piece) and test hot start. Maybe is "shot in the dark BUT" like Crossbolt write, but for sure you would not be the first with such a problem related with fuel octane. There are not many "cases" related with octain value but they exist and main problem is engine starting not performance so give it a shoot you gone loose few Eur on fuel :)
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Oh here is so much troubleshooting lol
About any air leak ...etc.. you can test that with Fi tool, just watch MAP pressure value, it should be steady on idle like 35-45 (also observing rpm so you will now why pressure rise or drop) if you have steady rpm and your pressure change, that is indication for something!
You dont need to test ECU with multimetar like Ruffus write, you do all that with FI tool, dont waste time
Also tilt swtich is good according the FI tool!
About that black stuff on fuel filter, I dont think that make any issue because you have good pressure!
Conclude; ECU read all good value, so could be wrong handling through the software or my theory (read bellow) 8)
O2 sensor cycling on idle is way how ECU preform injection timing however it need some time to start cycling you should put some rpm-s. Not cyclinging on idle can indicate air leak (you can test that observing MAP pressure or baby powder method), O2 sensor problem or ECU software problem, in my experience I encountered all three problems ;D
I write you before... try play with throttle and observe O2 behaviour and report here...
Now I will write what I think what is the problem (my fameous theory), after read all post my conclusion is FUEL! I know first you gonna think it is premimu fuel must be good etc... However you have trouble with two identical scooter, identical hot start problem....and you said you feed them with 98 fuel, that could be a trick!
Well, we should look wider picture, EFI in DT300/50 is basic I would say primitive if we compare some other systems...
System lacks of auto-adjusting feature for fuel octane, so it can make trouble advancing ignition timing during start because of ignition map limitiation if you pour higher octain fuel. When engine is cold ECU advance igntion more then hot, that is why you dont have a problem, however that changes when engine is warm, there is no need for too much advanced igntion and ECU retard it and makes trouble beacause of fuel resistance (bigger preigntion time). What I wanna said, iginition map is fixed and adjusting for higher octain fuel is not possbile so you should remove all the fuel and put 95 octain fuel, start engine leave it work some time to clean all remain fuel, get some rpm-s (I assume you cant drive because it is not in one piece) and test hot start. Maybe is "shot in the dark BUT" like Crossbolt write, but for sure you would not be the first with such a problem related with fuel octane. There are not many "cases" related with octain value but they exist and main problem is engine starting not performance so give it a shoot you gone loose few Eur on fuel :)
I have no problem trying to feed the engine with 95 ! I just filled it full yesterday with 98 ;D
The MAP reads the value at the trottle body, I wonder what it could read if I had a vacuum leak at the injector ? I'm going to check into my o-ring box if I have one that could fit there, just to test.
I still dont get the baby powder trick, I do for an oil leak test, but for a vacuum ?
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I have no problem trying to feed the engine with 95 ! I just filled it full yesterday with 98 ;D
The MAP reads the value at the trottle body, I wonder what it could read if I had a vacuum leak at the injector ? I'm going to check into my o-ring box if I have one that could fit there, just to test.
I still dont get the baby powder trick, I do for an oil leak test, but for a vacuum ?
For a vacuum leak use smoke
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Injector is placed before intake valve, so it is same volume space as map sensor (manifold absolute pressure) location, and bad oring or manifold gasket or any other damage will have impact on map readings! About powder, goal is make dust so you can see air moving you can use indinan stick too to make smoke. From my experience when injector oring wear and doesent seal, there is characteristic high pitch sound because of flow air thoroug small place!
I hope you get clear picture now :)
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Injector is placed before intake valve, so it is same volume space as map sensor (manifold absolute pressure) location, and bad oring or manifold gasket or any other damage will have impact on map readings! About powder, goal is make dust so you can see air moving you can use indinan stick too to make smoke. From my experience when injector oring wear and doesent seal, there is characteristic high pitch sound because of flow air thoroug small place!
I hope you get clear picture now :)
I do now !
I'm pretty sure 02 voltage doesn't cycle ay idle, you think it could be due to air leak, but I saw from the diag tool that the air pressure is within the range, that's weird !
I'm going to re-check that.
95 is my only option now !
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Vacuum is strongest at idle when throttle clamp is closed, so if there is any air leak map value will be higher, out of spec, and also unstable.. you said map readings are good so I doubt there is air leak somewhere.
About O2 cycling missing that can point to some software issue howevere that would not have impact on hot start as I mention before ECU is in open loop, BUT if we discover one ECU weak spot that is pointing there can be more like hot start problem!
But still 98 fuel bothers me ;D
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Vacuum is strongest at idle when throttle clamp is closed, so if there is any air leak map value will be higher, out of spec, and also unstable.. you said map readings are good so I doubt there is air leak somewhere.
About O2 cycling missing that can point to some software issue howevere that would not have impact on hot start as I mention before ECU is in open loop, BUT if we discover one ECU weak spot that is pointing there can be more like hot start problem!
But still 98 fuel bothers me ;D
I just checked, o2 is cycling at idle if rpm is higher than around 1750, just under it stays around 0.07v.
Map pressure is at 34/35
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@Henry, there are several ways to check a manifold for leaks.
One mentioned by Mouse with a scentstick, bears the risk of dispersion the smoke by breathing or...
Other, powder:
-manifold is on your desk, close both big openings with tape,
-powder the whole manifold from outside with whatever fine stuff you have,
-spray through this small vacuum intake, brake cleaner or fuel,
-turn the whole manifold slowely in your hands
-if there is a fine gap you will see the conture of this demage on the powdered surface.
It deems to be oldfashioned, this step by step "on foot" manual checking and analyzing.
I do DTCs, if neccessary, on my car with an OBD tester particularely programmed for VOLVO, because there is no other way to caliprate brakes or rear door closing, etc.
BUT: Before I sit down and plug in, I do a mental analyzing, WHAT and WHERE could be the culprit.
Then I circle it in, digital and manually.
As an engineer you split a challenge down like in an equation, and start with the smallest possible solution which leads you to your next step.
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[quote author=Henry link
I still dont get the baby powder trick, I do for an oil leak test, but for a vacuum ?
@Henry, there are several ways to check a manifold for leaks.
One mentioned by Mouse with a scentstick, bears the risk of dispersion the smoke by breathing or...
Other, powder:
-manifold is on your desk, close both big openings with tape,
-powder the whole manifold from outside with whatever fine stuff you have,
-spray through this small vacuum intake, brake cleaner or fuel,
-turn the whole manifold slowely in your hands
-if there is a fine gap you will see the conture of this demage on the powdered surface.
Okay ! Now I understand, thanks !
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Just thought about something... Might sounds stupid but could that come from a tired starter ?
When the engine is cold compression is lower than hot, means the starter has to give less force to start a cold engine compared to when the engine is hot.
Sounds possible to you ?
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@Henry, YES give it a try.
Didn't think of that anymore.
-pls check first with jumpstarting and shortcut starting by connecting those two bolts on your starter relais with a screwdriver or pliers (gloves and no open fuel close by)
-then order an inexpensive aftermarket replacement and put it in
-make sure this big ground cable (what I suggested to bypass) from battery to this motor ground point is in pristine shape and not corroded within 2 cm inside this cableshoe.
Had this issue and took me awhile to find out.
..pls see link..
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=31637.0
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@Henry, YES give it a try.
Didn't think of that anymore.
-pls check first with jumpstarting and shortcut starting by connecting those two bolts on your starter relais with a screwdriver or pliers (gloves and no open fuel close by)
-then order an inexpensive aftermarket replacement and put it in
-make sure this big ground cable (what I suggested to bypass) from battery to this motor ground point is in pristine shape and not corroded within 2 cm inside this cableshoe.
Had this issue and took me awhile to find out.
..pls see link..
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=31637.0
Good idea about jumpstarting to see if cables are OK ! I'll use a jump starter at the starter connections in help with the regular battery to see if it cranks faster & start !
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Sounds possible to you ?
If you didnt notice starter is struggling or hesitates while cranking hot, and also when we take in consideration lower voltage and battery capacity when it's cold which is also a limited factor for the starter. No it is not possible in my opinion!
for god's sake try other fuel ???
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If you didnt notice starter is struggling or hesitates while cranking hot, and also when we take in consideration lower voltage and battery capacity when it's cold which is also a limited factor for the starter. No it is not possible in my opinion!
for god's sake try other fuel ???
I am going to try 95 oct ! That was just an idea ! I need to drive a little bit to empty the fuel tank first. I have no pump and tank to store fuel now.
The starter doesn't seem to struggle, but when it is tired for a while and you have no point to compare to, you think it's ok. What brings me to that idea is that I heard a scooter (Xmax) starting on the street close to me and the cranking seemed faster.
Why the engine has been working good for years on 98 then ? I promess I'll feed with 95 !
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My DT also doesent crank fast, you can always try jumpstarting while hot, you need couple second for that.. but for me that is dead end if starter behaves same during the cold and hot start.
Why the engine has been working good for years on 98 then ? I promess I'll feed with 95 !
With such an attitude then you may wonder such question before any attempt at repair? Dont you?
Main two reasons:
1: engine wear, everything changes over a period of time, when engine is "young" compression is stronger, there is more temp and pressure to better handling the bigger preingntion time....etc
2. during the distillation of oil hundreds of additives are added that can vary what can lead for engine problem that is why (at least in my coutry) sometime when I top up my tank on some gas station I have trouble with engine performance and idle speed, that counts more for my car then scooter, but you get the point.
Why you dont remove all fuel from disassembled scooter, you can use fuel pumpe to remove all present fuel, and you can add few liter of 95 fuel.
What I wrote about the octane value of fuel, I didn't get it out of my head randomy, I know few people who try that premium fuel (in my country its call 100 ocatin) what caused only starting issue...and also beacause I know how much an"impact" higher octane fuel have on ECU calculation because I do that for long time.
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My DT also doesent crank fast, you can always try jumpstarting while hot, you need couple second for that.. but for me that is dead end if starter behaves same during the cold and hot start.
With such an attitude then you may wonder such question before any attempt at repair? Dont you?
Main two reasons:
1: engine wear, everything changes over a period of time, when engine is "young" compression is stronger, there is more temp and pressure to better handling the bigger preingntion time....etc
2. during the distillation of oil hundreds of additives are added that can vary what can lead for engine problem that is why (at least in my coutry) sometime when I top up my tank on some gas station I have trouble with engine performance and idle speed, that counts more for my car then scooter, but you get the point.
Why you dont remove all fuel from disassembled scooter, you can use fuel pumpe to remove all present fuel, and you can add few liter of 95 fuel.
What I wrote about the octane value of fuel, I didn't get it out of my head randomy, I know few people who try that premium fuel (in my country its call 100 ocatin) what caused only starting issue...and also beacause I know how much an"impact" higher octane fuel have on ECU calculation because I do that for long time.
I get it now, thanks.
You're right again concerning the help of the fuel pump, I didn't think about it !
I remember I changed the starter on the 300 not long before storing it, so I stole it from the 300 to put it on the 350, as jump starting didn't help.
And it worked !!!! The 350 starts immediately, I went for a classic 15 min ride like I usually do for my job, then shut it off for 5 min, then on, and no problem, starts with ease, like before.
Before going to my workshop, I went to the gas station to fill a 5 liter plastic tank with 95 to bring it with me (without shutting off the engine, otherwise it may not start after that), and decided to give a try on the starter before 95 as the tank is full.
I don't think I need 95 right now in my 350 as it now starts normally (I will feed with 95 anyway from now) but I will use for the 300, as the problem was obviously not the starter !
I now have to buy a new starter for the 300, and will feed with 95, hoping it will run as expected.
I'm so happy than it runs well now, thanks to all of you for your advises.
Here is plan now, I'm going to fix (hopefully) the 300 and keep it as spare, it has no value on the market (11 years old !).
The 350 is euro3 and might be banned in a year or 2 from Brussels because emission restriction, so I'm going to sell it now as it still has a little bit of value and order the new 350 euro5.
Now I need a starter ;D
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Hm intresting...
Can you use starter from 350 and 95 fuel before you buy new starter?
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@Henry, thanks for your resume, that's good news.
All the best in your job, Merry Christmas and have a save riding.
Stay with us in this forum once in a while, we can always learn from each other.
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This whole thing was a slow STARTER?
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Hm intresting...
Can you use starter from 350 and 95 fuel before you buy new starter?
Yes, I will put the sick 350 starter + 95 on the 300 and test
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This whole thing was a slow STARTER?
It seems like ! But it wasn't tired at the hear, wasn't struggling at all, sometimes when the engine was hot I could try to start 10 times for few seconds before the stater starts to slow down, it wasn't just spinning fast enough, but not due to powering issue. I realized that when I heard another scooter starting, thinking mmh his starter spins faster than mine, may be an issue ?
At least troubleshooting taught me a lot of useful things ! It wasn't easy and obvious.
Now I have to do a regular maintenance in order to sell it, new oil and filter, new brake pads and a new rear brake disc. Air filter, spark plug and coil are already new.
I signed yesterday for the new 350 (Euro5), will be delivered jan 5th.
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@Henry, thanks for your resume, that's good news.
All the best in your job, Merry Christmas and have a save riding.
Stay with us in this forum once in a while, we can always learn from each other.
Thanks Ruffus, same for you.
I'll stay on this forum, I like to read and comment. Now I have to put the 300 back on track, I may open another troubleshooting post :D
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any news with dt300?
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any news with dt300?
Yes ! I put the bad starter + 95 octane on the 300, it struggles to start like the 350 before !
I am going to order a starter motor, it's super expensive !! 180 euro, wow...
The 350 works like a charm, it will be sold next week when the new 350 will be ready at the dealership, should be in my possession next Tuesday.
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Yes ! I put the bad starter + 95 octane on the 300, it struggles to start like the 350 before !
I am going to order a starter motor, it's super expensive !! 180 euro, wow...
The 350 works like a charm, it will be sold next week when the new 350 will be ready at the dealership, should be in my possession next Tuesday.
You haven't an electric shop in Brussels to fix a PM field starter? There is not that much to the thing? Brushes and bearings is about it. Personally, I would disassemble, inspect, clean, lubricate, redress or replace brushes before replacing.
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As CROSSBOLT says, either refurbish or take one aftermarket starter motor. Safes you idle time.
Had good experience lately.
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You haven't an electric shop in Brussels to fix a PM field starter? There is not that much to the thing? Brushes and bearings is about it. Personally, I would disassemble, inspect, clean, lubricate, redress or replace brushes before replacing.
I disassembled it ! Some 2 magnets have collapsed inside the housing when I took the rotor off, they were hold by the rotor, as soon as I took it off the magnets broke.
Dead
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As CROSSBOLT says, either refurbish or take one aftermarket starter motor. Safes you idle time.
Had good experience lately.
Sounds good to me, I'll order one aftermarket.
Edit : done, ordered the one you suggested fro Ebay
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I disassembled it ! Some 2 magnets have collapsed inside the housing when I took the rotor off, they were hold by the rotor, as soon as I took it off the magnets broke.
Dead
Yow! That is pretty bad! No wonder you were having start(er) problems. Too bad the magnets are broken...could have epoxied them back in.
Years back, when inverter generators were coming more popular, there was an enormous recall on one brand caused by magnets on the rotor coming unglued! Seems the epoxy was not mixed right at the factory....
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Yep, sometimes you have to chip in. I have one of two in storage, most likely will never need them.
Have a nice Sylvester🍾🥂
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I disassembled it ! Some 2 magnets have collapsed inside the housing when I took the rotor off, they were hold by the rotor, as soon as I took it off the magnets broke.
Dead
Any photos?
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Hello Henry,
Thank you very much for your investigation. I was ready to buy the diagnostic tool to perform the tests you documented in this thread.
In the end, I came to the same conclusion: my starter motor does not work properly once it gets hot. I live in the south of Spain, and especially during the summer, the problem becomes much more noticeable.
Without hesitation, I have ordered a new starter motor to replace the current one.
I know this is an old thread, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to thank you for all the work you put into it.
My scooter is a Xciting S 400.
Thank you.
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Manuel Dupe thank you for your input.
Its nice to hear from Spain.
Which one you got and where did you order in your country.
Stay with us once in a while.
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Hello Ruffus,
Thank you very much for your reply. Your contribution was crucial in identifying the cause of the problem.
I have ordered the starter motor from the online store UbricarMotos, a supplier I regularly use for parts and maintenance items for my scooter.
I ordered the Kymco Xciting 400 Tecnium MT159-OT187 starter motor for €52.00.
I will let you know the results once I have replaced it. I also plan to disassemble the faulty starter motor and will share the results of the teardown to see exactly what caused the failure.
Thanks again.
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Txs a lot, AND if you can, pics.
Tecnium we can get here in Italy too.