KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => People GT 300i => Topic started by: Faber32 on April 23, 2021, 12:02:38 PM
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Hi everyone. New here and really need for your help. My people GTI 125 (2015, BF25AA engine) doesn't start. Battery is 6 years old but voltage is good (12.7 V), it cranks fine and strong and during cranking it has 11.2 V so I think is still good. It started after many attempts the last days, and now won't start at all. I checked the spark plug (grounding it) and it sparks good (I suppose). I checked the voltage of the ECU wires to the fuel pump and it's ok (they have the battery voltage for some seconds and then it drops). Then I checked the fuel pump resistance and it gives only 2.2 Ohms. In the service manual says 1.9 Ohms so should be ok. What else should I check?
Injector and valve clearance?
Thank you very much :)
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You have done extremely well on checking for possible causes!
Yes, on valve clearance as well as a compression test.
There may be some blockage in the injector which can be flushed out. Has this machine been sitting unused with ethanol gas in it?
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Thank you very much Karl :)
Scooter due to quarantine has not been used so much this year, but recently it has been used. My only doubts are:
- could the battery despite the good voltage not be able to supply enough amperes for starting? Because I have no trouble codes nor engine light. The only light I saw was the red one of the battery after some cranking.
- if it's injector clogging should I have trouble codes?
- in the manual says that if it cranks but won't start could be the pinion of the starter motor. Could it be? :-\
Thanks again really
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Thank you very much Karl :)
Scooter due to quarantine has not been used so much this year, but recently it has been used. My only doubts are:
- could the battery despite the good voltage not be able to supply enough amperes for starting? Because I have no trouble codes nor engine light. The only light I saw was the red one of the battery after some cranking.
- if it's injector clogging should I have trouble codes?
- in the manual says that if it cranks but won't start could be the pinion of the starter motor. Could it be? :-\
Thanks again really
Battery way beyond normal expected life! Volts during cranking are excellent. Replace if all else fails.
Clogged injector will show no codes.
Starter pinion is okay if cranking sounds are normal.
There is a way to flush an injector right on the bike if that is the problem.
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Everything looks good - but very hard to start?
My first thought is check the valves......hopefully it is not hard to do on your model Kymco?
Stig
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Thanks guys for taking the time for answering. You're amazing, really.
As soon as possible I'll check voltage to injector wires and injector resistance.
Then I'll adjust valve clearance (I do it later because it's a boring job and I'd like to exclude injector isseus first). I know how to do it. :-)
I was thinking of doing like this: remove the injector and turn ignition ON, crank and see if it sprays. If it doesn't spray I detach the fuel hose and see if fuel arrives at the injector. Is it right?
If injector sprays correctly, I'll then adjust valves.
Thanks again :-)
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Unfortunately I don't have a pressure gauge to check the pressure of fuel to the injector (it should be 0.3 bar). The only check I can do it's visually turning ignition on and see if fuel comes strong or not
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Problem solved guys. I found an old spark plug and I put it on. It started. Now I know that even if you put to ground the spark and it sparks, it's not certain that it's enough to start the engine. I underestimated one fundamental aspect. Thanks again and good luck ;)
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Problem solved guys. I found an old spark plug and I put it on. It started. Now I know that even if you put to ground the spark and it sparks, it's not certain that it's enough to start the engine. I underestimated one fundamental aspect. Thanks again and good luck ;)
Excellent! Compression does increase the difficulty in spark if I remember correctly. Meaning a weak spark at one atmosphere (~14 psia) may be no spark at 200 psia.
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Thanks for the info. It's not enough a "visual" inspection, always better trying a new spark plug probably.
Good road 8)
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Hi everyone. Today I adjusted the valve clearance. But I noticed that turning the engine manually (clockwise and I don't know if it's correct but I think so because I have the flywheel on the exhaust side) it made a bad noise like a coffee grinder. Two years ago I didn't remember making this noise. Is the engine gone?
Second question:
When positioning the flywheel the manual says to align the "T" mark on the flywheel with the mark on the crankcase cover. I don't understand well where I should see a "T". I only see two vertical marks on the flywheel. Anyway, I put the cover mark exactly in the middle of the two flywheel marks. But on the manual the picture is different (the cover mark is aligned with the right flywheel one). Do you think I did wrong and I have to do all the job again? See picture.
Thank you for help
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Hi everyone. Today I adjusted the valve clearance. But I noticed that turning the engine manually (clockwise and I don't know if it's correct but I think so because I have the flywheel on the exhaust side) it made a bad noise like a coffee grinder. Two years ago I didn't remember making this noise. Is the engine gone?
Second question:
When positioning the flywheel the manual says to align the "T" mark on the flywheel with the mark on the crankcase cover. I don't understand well where I should see a "T". I only see two vertical marks on the flywheel. Anyway, I put the cover mark exactly in the middle of the two flywheel marks. But on the manual the picture is different (the cover mark is aligned with the right flywheel one). Do you think I did wrong and I have to do all the job again? See picture.
Thank you for help
Turning the engine clockwise from the flywheel means you have turned the engine “clockwise”.
I have no knowledge about your scooter models but there is another way to make sure the camshaft is at the correct position when you do valve clearance settings on a two valve engine.
When the camshaft is at the correct position (piston at TDC) - both camshaft lobes will be facing towards the rear end (back wheel) of the scooter.
With the camshaft lobes in this position, the timing marks (according to the service manual) should also line up correctly.
So when the cam lobes are facing backwards on your engine and tou cant see the timing marks, just turn the flywheel very slightly untill the timing marks are lining up correctly. At this point you can do both valve clearance adjustments.
I assume you did not hear the strange engine noise just before you did the adjustments ?
If not, I think there is a possibility that the adjustments have been done incorrectly - and the piston might be hitting the valves when the engine is swinging.
Hopefully this is not the case - otherwise you might have bigger problems.
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Thank you for your reply :)
The noise was there the first moment I turned the engine, before adjusting valves. I did this job because it didn't start and I wanted to exclude valve clearance as a reason for that.
Yes, there's another way to tell the right position. There are two holes on the camshaft that must be aligned with the engine head surface, but it's really difficult to tell since you don't have the right visual angle. Instead, I relied on the marks on the flywheel but I have this doubt of which one of the two on the flywheel must be aligned with the one on the crankcase cover (as in the picture). In doubt, I put it in the middle of the two but I still remain with the doubt :)
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I remember watching a Donyboy73 (small engine Doc) video a few years back and he gave another way of setting the piston to adjust valves. If you can find tdc just turn the engine until one of the valves is open, then the other valve will have no pressure on it and will be able to be adjusted. Repeat procedure to open other valve and adjust the non opened one.
I think this was on a lawnmower but many of our scooters are just slightly fancier lawn mower engines.
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Thank you :). That's interesting but I don't feel confident enough for doing such a thing, I'm a newbie in DIY.
In reality I was almost to the point except for the doubt of which of the two marks I should align. Probably someone with my model could answer that, but thanks again!
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Thank you for your reply :)
Yes, there's another way to tell the right position. There are two holes on the camshaft that must be aligned with the engine head surface, but it's really difficult to tell since you don't have the right visual angle. Instead, I relied on the marks on the flywheel but I have this doubt of which one of the two on the flywheel must be aligned with the one on the crankcase cover (as in the picture). In doubt, I put it in the middle of the two but I still remain with the doubt :)
If you prefer to do the valve clearance settings this way you are at the brink of success !
It’s not difficult at all ! When the two holes are lining up with the cranckcase cover - just have a close look at the position of the camshaft lobes. If the lobes are facing forward ( towards the front wheel ) it meanns the piston in NOT in “TDC” position, (in theory) and you should NOT try to do any valve clearance adjustments.
If the two holes are lining up with with the cranckcase cover and the two camshaft lobes are facing the rear wheel - BINGO ! The piston will be at TDC position and you can do the valve clearance settings !
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If you prefer to do the valve clearance settings this way you are at the brink of success !
It’s not difficult at all ! When the two holes are lining up with the cranckcase cover - just have a close look at the position of the camshaft lobes. If the lobes are facing forward ( towards the front wheel ) it meanns the piston in NOT in “TDC” position, (in theory) and you should NOT try to do any valve clearance adjustments.
If the two holes are lining up with with the cranckcase cover and the two camshaft lobes are facing the rear wheel - BINGO ! The piston will be at TDC position and you can do the valve clearance settings !
Simply a genius way of doing this!
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Thank you :-) Unfortunately I have an update. After replacing the spark plug it started. But next day same exact problem. I have done many attempts and I have understood that the problem is a wet spark plug. If it doesn't start, I extract the spark plug, I clean it with brake cleaner and get it dry and it starts perfectly at first attempt. Do you know what could be the problem?
The only symptom I have running is a lack of power in acceleration from 20 mph to 35 mph, but I think this is due to a non-genuine belt I replaced 2 years ago (it started lacking of acceleration just after replacing the belt).
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@Faber32,
fuel there is for a start to check better than none.
Is it fuel at the sparkplug or oil?
Does the scoot smoke bluish from its muffler after its warmed up a bit?
Could mean valves still out of order or piston rings little bit worn out.
Sparkplug gap too small?
Really the right sparkplug?
Pls check up on all again.
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The scooter has only 15k miles. The spark plugs I extracted after 3k miles were oily at the tip and black, too much in my opinion. But now the spark plug gets wet in a day or so. And it smell strongly of gasoline.
It smokes a little white/blueish, but oil consumption is really really low, quite none. Spark plug is a CR7E as recommended. Gap is fine in specs but I discovered I did the last 4k miles with too much gap (0.8 instead of 0.6-0.7). Could I have ruined the engine?
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The scooter has only 15k miles. The spark plugs I extracted after 3k miles were oily at the tip and black, too much in my opinion. But now the spark plug gets wet in a day or so. And it smell strongly of gasoline.
It smokes a little white/blueish, but oil consumption is really really low, quite none. Spark plug is a CR7E as recommended. Gap is fine in specs but I discovered I did the last 4k miles with too much gap (0.8 instead of 0.6-0.7). Could I have ruined the engine?
White/bluish smoke is oil. That generally means either too much oil in the crankcase or bad oil control ring(s).
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Thank you for your reply!
But supposing that compression is not good or that there are major issues in the engine, why removing the spark plug, drying it and reinserting it, it starts at first attempt perfectly as before? Today I drove for 20 miles with no issues. If there's a lack of compression it should not start at all. Am I right?
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@Faber32,
this wider sparkplug gap does not have any significant side-effect and harmful doing on your motor.
Your scoot needs, to burn off this oily stuff from your sparkplug, a few miles until its heated up enough to do a selfcleaning.
So, If you start your scoot and just let it idle, the sparkplug will look darkish oily.
But the fuel has to come from somewhere?
If it would be a carb-motor, I would say it's the level valve which is faulty.
On your injection is a fuel line too, which leads to your injector,...
Look around there, where the fuel is getting to.
There are two idle-regulation screws, check up on them but do NOT losen this two hex-bolts which fix your ECU.
Thumb rule Compression Test::
-sparkplug out and away
-GLOVED finger on/into sparkplug thread
-ignition on and start
-GLOVED finger should be airblowed away from ...
-NO blowing away, compression tester borrowed from somewhere and...
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Thank you again, really :-) it's an interesting diagnosis and I'd like to try to solve it before going to the mechanic.
In my People ignition is electronic, no carburator I think. Yesterday I cranked the engine without spark plug and it blew out air and gasoline strong. Today, thinking that it was only a case of flooded engine I made 20 miles at high rpms trying to burn all gasoline but then after 6 hours it didn't start again. Spark plug gets wet when sitting for hours. At this point I am thinking about a leaking injector. It could explain the issue.
For idle rpms I think they're ok, engine sounds as always at idle and it's ecu controlled.
I'll check if the injector leaks. Is it enough to remove it and check if it drops gasoline when engine is off?
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@Fabelr32,
an injector is principally nothing else than a magnetic valve which is opened against a spring by an electric pulse at the right moment.
So, to check its function, seat and underbay off
- yes take injector out, DONT take the fuel line off
- have a good view on it and put it in a transparent cup
- we'll see what happens.
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@Ruffus: thanks so much for your reply :-)
Scooter has been sitting for the night now. Today I'm gonna remove the injector (letting the fuel line attached to it), put it in a cup and see if in a few hours it makes the drop of gasoline. If so, I've found the issue. It should not leak at all with ignition on and off, right?
Then I'll crank the engine to see if it sprays fine and strong.
Curiosity: I have an endoscope. If I put it inside the spark plug hole should I see the combustion chamber flooded with gas? Or should I put it in the injector hole?
I hope I don't have already hydrolocked the engine.
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Endoscope is most probably one of the better ways to find something out. Sparkplug hole or injection port.
NO your injector should NOT drip with inition ON and without cranking.
No, if your motor would have been "hydrolocked" , it would not have started that easily. Fluid is not compressable in this way.
One more thought:
-when your injector is out and in a container, switch ignition on (you should hear the fuel pumm running for about 10 secs) and watch whether you injector is dripping. IT SHOULD NOT, only with ignition on and pump running.
If its drips, some grain is in your injector nozzle.
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I have put the endoscope in the plug hole. This is what I saw with cold engine after night.
Unfortunately I forgot to take with me the mirror at the end of the endoscope to see all around, but I'll do pics with the mirror later.
This is what I found. You can see some gas drops on the cylinder wall and I just noticed a strange glare on the right side (the downward one which for gravity should collect gasoline) looking at the pics.
I'll investigate more, but to me it doesn't seem a flooded engine. I also removed injector, try to turn ignition on but I didn't see any dripping waiting for 2-3 minutes. Probably hours are required to see a drop. I have to do all these attempts but I'm about to give up and go to the dealer :)
Ah, today it started again perfectly after drying the spark plug. It's absolutely a flooded plug issue. Now I'm 99% sure
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second pic: if you look closely it seems on the right side that there's a puddle of gasoline. I'll do further inspections in the next 8 hours
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Removing the air filter (because I saw leakage signs under it) I found this: in my opinion are signs of gasoline leaking from the air intake pipe.
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Pls try this
-when your injector is out and in a container, switch ignition on (you should hear the fuel pump running for about 10 secs) and watch whether you injector is dripping. IT SHOULD NOT drip, only with ignition on and pump running.
If its drips, some grain is in your injector nozzle
This airfilter looks...hmmh
check, is there any possibility that, from your fuel line some fuel is leaking into this suction tract.and swamps your intake system?
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I did like you say. Ignition on, injector out and I watched it for a couple of minutes. No dripping.
I give up, I'll go to the dealer. My fear is that too much gas enters combustion chamber for a timing issue or there's a weak spark because ignition coil is not good enough to send a high voltage. It's a difficult diagnosis.
I'll let you know and thanks again
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I did like you say. Ignition on, injector out and I watched it for a couple of minutes. No dripping.
I give up, I'll go to the dealer. My fear is that too much gas enters combustion chamber for a timing issue or there's a weak spark because ignition coil is not good enough to send a high voltage. It's a difficult diagnosis.
I'll let you know and thanks again
Bring lotsa money.....
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@Faber32,
I still think there is a simple cause behind this phenomenon. Before you see your dealer, pls check valves again and the fuel delivery chain from gas tank until injector. Gas must somehow, sonewhen enter your cylinder and wet the sparkplug otherwise we would not see it on endoscopes pics.
Would really love to put hands-on.
Weak sparkplug Im inclined to exclude, 'cause its running when started.
Timing issue, so-so, but runs fine.
Whatever you find out, pls tell us.
Maybe you write down in bullets.what you did
to make your mechanics life easier and search shorter $$.
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Thanks again.
I just let it to an indy in the end. Unfortunately I didn't have time to do attempts anymore, I felt I was at an impasse. I adjusted valves very carefully with a professional gauge, I don't think I could have done big mistakes. Probably I should have checked if the injector leaks watching it for hours and not only minutes. It's possible that it drips very slowly. This morning same story: didn't start, then I dried the plug and boom, start at first shot perfectly. I'll let you know soon
Question: if it's the injector faulty, is it sufficient to detach it from fuel hose line and replace it? What about air trapped in the hose at first start? Doesn't it damage the injector? There's a way to purge air before starting the engine with new injector?
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No, it does not matter at all if you had your injector removed.
This little air in it is easily compressed by fuel via fuelpump. Evaporates then through valve and off.
But would really love to know the outcome.
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For sure, I'll let you know :)
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Bad news. Suspect head gasket burned. I don't know if I will repair it. The mechanic says it was water getting the plug wet.
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Bad news. Suspect head gasket burned. I don't know if I will repair it. The mechanic says it was water getting the plug wet.
One good reason to stick to air cooled carborettor models.
This thread just confirmed what I firmly beleive in - just stick to air cooled carborettor models and you will never experience such nonsense.
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interesting..so all along the assumption was that the liquid in the cylinder was fuel when in reality it was engine coolant?
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Exactly. And considering how rapidly the plug gets wet, I think the damage is quite evident.
Honestly I don't know if it's an issue that happens or if it's due to short trips or what. Anyway I'll repair it, next big issue I give it away :-)
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Sorry to hear, but on the other hand, a headgasket repair is not that big issue. I don't think your cylinderhead or any imminent parts have suffered too much, for it would not run properly.
Thanks for your review.
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Thank you :-) mechanic asked me about 440 dollars. I told him to proceed
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Faber32, what a coincidence, I'm living in Italy regione(FVG) Udine, too.
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Just recently bought a LIKE 200i from Spinea and drove it home to Aquileia. Chi vediamo. Mandi
If your are by happenstance in my area, AQUILEIA (UD) send me a PM.
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Sure! :)
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Charge the battery. I had the same issue years ago.
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Hi! This was one of the first attempts I did. I bought a new Yuasa, I put it on but it did the same problem unfortunately
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@Faber32, salve
How it's going with your head gasket?
Any news about the scoot?
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Hi Ruffus :-)
No news, still waiting for a response about the overall situation of the engine components.
I'm concerned about the possible causes that led to the head gasket failure. Because I had no engine light while driving, nor overheating issues.
I'll keep this topic posted as soon as I know something more :D
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Hi, I've seen the head gasket in my hands. The mechanic says it's due to cold engine revving and hard accelerations. I don't know... If I can I'll post some pics
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Hi, at least the main source is found. (gasket)
Yes, cold revving and kind of things make sense.
Okay, bearings could have suffered, but this is easily to be seen when head and cylinder are off. It ran with its dry cylinder and probably steamed its coolant out.
In the industry we had rubber bearings, size of a soup plate, which were water-lubricated, worked for years without probs. I know, I compare....
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The fact is that I don't think it really took such a beating or revving. Anyway it doesn't matter, I'll also change the oil as soon as I can because it could be contaminated by blowby :)
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Coolant in oil is easy to dedect. Makes it greyish, and, should be some grey foam at/on your dipstick and thread...
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You're right. In my case probably contamination is minimal, but an oil change costs 15 dollars so I'll do it anyway :-)