KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Agility 125 => Topic started by: bmurph44 on December 04, 2020, 08:29:25 PM
-
Hello first time poster here. As the title states my low mileage 2013 Agility 125 will not start. I don't get to ride it much but I do use alcohol free fuel and start it at least once every couple of weeks, I'm sure it is not a bad fuel issue but I have always felt it was rather hard starting after sitting for a few weeks and always takes a long time to warm up. I have a new battery and a new spark plug and it has spark the fuel filter has fuel in it, thinking a possible venting issue I tried it with the fuel cap removed.
Any ideas on where to begin, bad fuel pump, bad choke or fuel filter?
Thanks ahead of time for any help or ideas.
-
Gravity fed = no fuel pump.
No choke = uses auto bystarter to accomplish the same thing **
Fuel will evaporate from the float bowl. Could be your vacuum operated fuel valve is stuck shut, auto bystarter** is not working or your carb has some tiny passages blocked from the "ethanol-free" fuel you put in it (some stations cheat - they don't get a tax break on non-ethanol fuel).
-
I'm with Karl on a couple points. 7-year old Agility - wouldn't hurt to pull the carb for a cleaning, especially the idle jet and passages. Also, pull the bystarter and bench test it to confirm the needle moves when 12 volts are applied.
And a question, are you attempting to start it with the electric starter, the kickstarter or both?
-
yep, listen to the experts. When a scoot with a carb sits for a while, the carb gets goobered up. My People S200 with carb was having a hard time starting and staying running. Give it a little throttle and it died...classic symptom of clogged pilot jet. I ended up replacing my pilot jet due to messing it up with repeated cleanings. Starts like a champ...for now...with the new pilot jet.
Do you have any mechanical ability? Sometimes that's assumed but not always a given.
Another way to narrow down a fuel problem is to disconnect the airbox intake from your carb and shoot some starter fluid or carb cleaner in there and see if it starts. if it does you know you have a fuel delivery (likely clogged carb) issue.
-
This sounds like a common problem on all Agilities - even with a clean carboretor it will battle to start if the scooter stands for about a weak or even less.
I use my Agily almost 365 days per year - it always runs perfectly unless it stands for 3 or 4 days. Then it battles to start. I always use clean gas - we don’t have mixed fuels in our country.
I think the fuel somehow just evaporates inside the carboretor - or maybe something is causing a vaccuum to make the fuel disappear. This really puzzles me, I would also like to know what is causing this.
-
Gravity fed = no fuel pump.
No choke = uses auto bystarter to accomplish the same thing **
Fuel will evaporate from the float bowl. Could be your vacuum operated fuel valve is stuck shut, auto bystarter** is not working or your carb has some tiny passages blocked from the "ethanol-free" fuel you put in it (some stations cheat - they don't get a tax break on non-ethanol fuel).
I'm 100 percent positive the ethanol free fuel is legit, small town and I have know the owner my whole life. You may be correct on the blocked carb, it was preowned so I have no idea what the previous owner used. Where can I purchase a new bystarter?
-
I'm with Karl on a couple points. 7-year old Agility - wouldn't hurt to pull the carb for a cleaning, especially the idle jet and passages. Also, pull the bystarter and bench test it to confirm the needle moves when 12 volts are applied.
And a question, are you attempting to start it with the electric starter, the kickstarter or both?
Mainly the electric starter, I did try to kick start a few times with no luck. Is using the electric starter an issue?
-
yep, listen to the experts. When a scoot with a carb sits for a while, the carb gets goobered up. My People S200 with carb was having a hard time starting and staying running. Give it a little throttle and it died...classic symptom of clogged pilot jet. I ended up replacing my pilot jet due to messing it up with repeated cleanings. Starts like a champ...for now...with the new pilot jet.
Do you have any mechanical ability? Sometimes that's assumed but not always a given.
Another way to narrow down a fuel problem is to disconnect the airbox intake from your carb and shoot some starter fluid or carb cleaner in there and see if it starts. if it does you know you have a fuel delivery (likely clogged carb) issue.
I do have some limited ability, I did try the starter fluid with no luck.
-
This sounds like a common problem on all Agilities - even with a clean carboretor it will battle to start if the scooter stands for about a weak or even less.
I use my Agily almost 365 days per year - it always runs perfectly unless it stands for 3 or 4 days. Then it battles to start. I always use clean gas - we don’t have mixed fuels in our country.
I think the fuel somehow just evaporates inside the carboretor - or maybe something is causing a vaccuum to make the fuel disappear. This really puzzles me, I would also like to know what is causing this.
This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing that's why I initially thought it was the choke or bystarter.
-
not starting on starter fluid should theoretically rule out a fueling problem (although I'd never totally rule that out with a carb that's been sitting)..which leaves spark, air and compression. You said you checked for spark?..assuming your intake system isn't plugged..do you have compression?
How about a valve adjustment? That can cause hard starting or prevent starting. Valve adjustments are easy to do on our little scooter motors.
-
Garret Seesing has some good scooter videos on diagnosing no start issues:
https://youtu.be/xW5y7a7CB1c
https://youtu.be/QkkYjRdtQxg
-
This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing that's why I initially thought it was the choke or bystarter.
I find myself in an area with a subtropical climate. Ambient temperature hardly ever plays any role and my Agility always starts instantly, even during winter - unless it stands for a couple of days. That makes me think something else must be causing this problem.
The valve clearances are correct on my scooter, and it always have spark - if the valve clearances were incorrect or if there was a spark issue I can not think of any reason why the scooter always starts instantly when it get used every day.
Another thought which just came to mind - the battery on my Agility probably needs to be checked properly. It might be on it’s way out. Our scooters have DC CDI’s and maybe the battery has a Voltage drop after the scooter has been standing for a couple of days. In case of a Voltage drop the CDI might not get sufficient voltage to generate a proper spark.
-
scooterfan - battery, yes! good call to make sure the battery is holding a full charge. Lots of scoots running around with weak older batteries.
-
This morning I removed the autostarter and tested it with a voltmeter and it measured 2 ohms, my research is telling me it should be in the region of 10 to 20 ohms.
Just a shot in the dark I tried starting it with the autostarter removed and put my thumb over the opening where it is attached no luck doing that.
Can someone point to a amazon link to the correct electric choke, there are many listed and none give an exact description of what it will fit.
-
not starting on starter fluid should theoretically rule out a fueling problem (although I'd never totally rule that out with a carb that's been sitting)..which leaves spark, air and compression. You said you checked for spark?..assuming your intake system isn't plugged..do you have compression?
How about a valve adjustment? That can cause hard starting or prevent starting. Valve adjustments are easy to do on our little scooter motors.
I have plenty of compression, the weird thing is it started, then a week later it wouldn't start. I also pulled the fuel line off when I cranked it plenty of gas flowed so it must be getting fuel.
-
Test the by starter with voltage. You tested it with an ohm meter and got 2 ohms. What source said it should be 20 ohms?
You have tested for fuel flow and it is good, right?
Compression good, right?
Tested with starter fluid and got no reaction, right? FIRST INDICATION OF A PROBLEM that may interfere with starting! I am with Iowa Hawk (Iahawk) on this. OK, now find out why.
-
Test the by starter with voltage. You tested it with an ohm meter and got 2 ohms. What source said it should be 20 ohms?
I was using this link
http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_troubleshooting.html (http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_troubleshooting.html)
-
not sure you're looking at the right issue...if it won't start with starter fluid then replacing the auto bystarter likely won't make any difference. The starter fluid should have more than made up for the additional (or lack of additional) fuel provided by the bystarter.
have you tested your battery for proper volts as scooterfan suggested?
-
I was using this link
http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_troubleshooting.html (http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_troubleshooting.html)
That link looks like good advice as trouble shooting sequence. What lahawk, scooterfan and I are saying is don't start throwing parts at this problem until your troubleshooting shows you need that part.
Now I have a question about verifying your meter reading: what scale are you using tonget your reading of 2 ohms?
-
That link looks like good advice as trouble shooting sequence. What lahawk, scooterfan and I are saying is don't start throwing parts at this problem until your troubleshooting shows you need that part.
Now I have a question about verifying your meter reading: what scale are you using tonget your reading of 2 ohms?
I agree on the throwing parts at it but I have always suspected the choke wasn't working properly and it was only 7 dollars so no big loss if that's not the problem. Full disclosure I'm not an electrician, I was using a regular voltmeter with the ohm setting.
-
not sure you're looking at the right issue...if it won't start with starter fluid then replacing the auto bystarter likely won't make any difference. The starter fluid should have more than made up for the additional (or lack of additional) fuel provided by the bystarter.
have you tested your battery for proper volts as scooterfan suggested?
The battery is new this year.
-
I wouldn't automatically assume a new battery is good or that the charging system is working properly.
Battery with scoot off should be ~12.7, no less than ~12.5.
With scooter running should read between 13.6 - 14.5
there's also a minimum reading for when you're cranking the engine over...can't recall that one...you may want to check it and post your results here for others to weigh in on.
-
I wouldn't automatically assume a new battery is good or that the charging system is working properly.
Battery with scoot off should be ~12.7, no less than ~12.5.
With scooter running should read between 13.6 - 14.5
there's also a minimum reading for when you're cranking the engine over...can't recall that one...you may want to check it and post your results here for others to weigh in on.
For EFI no less than about 10 volts while cranking. 9.5 volts will crank the engine over but it will NOT start and run.
Don't know with CDI...AC or DC...
-
I find myself in a big city and we have many battery shops in our area. All of them have high quality specialised equipment to do a proper load test on a battery.
I never do a test with my Multimeter to see if the battery is still in good condition, simply because a Multimeter can easily give an unreliable indication about battery heath. The reason being - a faulty battery can still give “full” reading for a couple of seconds, but the voltage actually start dropping after a couple of seconds while the battery is under load.
Specialised equipment and trained staff at battery shops give a far better indication whether a battery is faulty or not. All batteries with different specs have different minimum requirements to meet during a proper load test. The different batteries have to hold power for a specific time (seconds) when under a specific load - and this load differ from battery to battery, which depends on battery size / capasity.
So without knowlege about how many seconds a spesific battery is suppose to hold full charge before the Voltage start dropping under load, it is simply impossible to do a proper DIY test with a Multimeter to see if a battery is still in good condition.
Fact is - even a reliable battery dealer can not do a battery test on a battery if the battery is not fully charged. Therefore I always but a battery on a battery charger, and make sure I get a full Volt reading (12Volt +) with my Multimeter on the battery BEFORE I take the battery to a battery shop fora proper load test.
In short - I do not have proper load test equipment and I have no knowledge about how many seconds any of the batteries on my vehicles is suppose to hold power when under load. Battery specialists put different loads on different size batteries to do a proper tests and without their knowledge and equipment it is simply impossible for myself to do a proper load test on any of my batteries.
-
Same problem with scoot after it hasn't been used for a week or so.
For some reason it's then easier to start it using the kick starter.
Same thing on wife's Vespa et50.
Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk
-
Same problem with scoot after it hasn't been used for a week or so.
For some reason it's then easier to start it using the kick starter.
Same thing on wife's Vespa et50.
Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk
I think this could be a good indication that the battery is not fully charged, or the battery is on it’s way out.
The reason being- when you press the started button the starter start swinging, and when the starter swings it causes a further Voltage drop at the battery. That further voltage drop means the CDI will not get sufficient Voltage from the battery to generate a proper spark at the spark plug.
When you only use the kick starter, the additional Voltage drop actually does not take place because the starter motor does not get activated.
-
I think this could be a good indication that the battery is not fully charged, or the battery is on it’s way out.
The reason being- when you press the started button the starter start swinging, and when the starter swings it causes a further Voltage drop at the battery. That further voltage drop means the CDI will not get sufficient Voltage from the battery to generate a proper spark at the spark plug.
When you only use the kick starter, the additional Voltage drop actually does not take place because the starter motor does not get activated.
The battery is at least 5 years old, so it's not as good as new, but it still holds capacity, and spins the starter with no apparent struggle.
I'd does take a few kicks to get the scooter started, and that is always after using the electric starter first.
For some reason when the scooter is in everyday use it starts immediately when cold.
If I turn it off and start again in the next few minutes, it also starts with no problem.
If I leave it for more then 5-10 minutes then I have to give a bit of throttle and rev it some to get it started otherwise I need to crank it more then I feel comfortable doing.
Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk
-
Here is a 'scope trace of battery voltage during a successful start on a 300 cc DT engine. The voltage levels are shown by the yellow trace on the black screen (for those who may have never seen one of these things). The two flat topped "peaks" on the left are when the starter is revolving the engine EASILY. That is the critical part of the trace. If I recall correctly, that was about 10.5 volts on a good battery, the start was normal and the ultimate after start voltage was 14. something.
The point here is all digital meters have a "scan rate" that sometimes is so slow that it may miss showing something that happens pretty fast like this start sequence. The cheaper the digital meter the slower the scan rate. The other limiting factor is the guy looking at the meter display! You may miss a reading even with the best of meters. What I am concluding is you have to adapt to what you have and you can still make good decisions if you are persistent and insightful.
One of the 500i guys here developed a scheme for a second small battery that powered only the ECU so the darn thing would spark the plug while cranking! Genius!
-
I never tried the kickstarter on my scooter before , but if the engine battles to start after the scooter was standing for a couple of days I will try the kickstarter to see what happens.
-
Today the electric choke was delivered, installed it and still wont start.
New electric choke, I checked the battery, its new and good also tried using the kick start, I have spark to the spark plug, pulled the fuel line at the carburetor cranked it and fuel is flowing to the carb, shot some starter fluid in the intake.
At this point I'm pretty much out of ideas except to rebuild the carburetor which is something I don't feel comfortable doing myself.
-
thanks for continuing to follow back up, here. Have you made sure your valves are adjusted properly? That can be a cause of a 'no start'. It's a relatively easy procedure, no new parts needed, just a feeler gauge and sockets and a wrench. Lots of youtube vids to walk you through it.
If you know you have fuel, spark and compression...hoping the valves are out of adjustment and that will fix you up.
Regarding a carb 'rebuild'...it's in reality a carb clean. You usually don't have to replace anything in the carb, just have to make sure everything is squeaky clean and working correctly. The use of starter fluid not being able to start the scoot makes me think it is not carb related, though.
-
thanks for continuing to follow back up, here. Have you made sure your valves are adjusted properly? That can be a cause of a 'no start'. It's a relatively easy procedure, no new parts needed, just a feeler gauge and sockets and a wrench. Lots of youtube vids to walk you through it.
If you know you have fuel, spark and compression...hoping the valves are out of adjustment and that will fix you up.
Regarding a carb 'rebuild'...it's in reality a carb clean. You usually don't have to replace anything in the carb, just have to make sure everything is squeaky clean and working correctly. The use of starter fluid not being able to start the scoot makes me think it is not carb related, though.
Only 635 miles I can’t imagine the valves would be out of adjustment but I guess anything is possible. Is what gets me it starts and runs fine one day then a week later I try to start it and nothing.
-
sorry, forgot about the low miles...but still probably worth a try (and a good skill to have). have you read through the thread a few down from yours by aschrauth? He went through a lot of steps getting his Agility 125 back and running. Might be some tips in there for you, too.
-
I can't recall, did you ever pull your carb to clean it? A clogged pilot jet will prevent the scoot from starting. (the not starting with starter fluid still bothers me, though).
I have pulled mine a few times...but I just unhook it from the airbox and the intake, leave everything else intact, flip it over, remove the bowl and pull the jet(s) to clean.
-
This morning I pulled the carburetor and removed the jets, one looked like it had some dirt in it so I cleaned it out and it then looked normal, the other looked ok but I went ahead and sprayed some carb cleaner on it anyway. I put it back together and tried to start it still no luck.
-
That idle/low speed jet is very small. You must be able to see a bright light through both. Additionally, there are passages in the carb body that must be blown clear. The ethanol sludge can plug up a dam!
-
You can check whether the combustion chamber gets fuel by checking the spark plug after the engine was swinging a couple of times and it did not start.
If the spark olug is wet, it means the engine gets fuel.
You previously mentioned that you have tested for spark, and the scooter have spark. If the spark is weak or the engine compression is too low, the engine will not start.
You can feel the engine compression by hand - by pressing the kickstarter down while the spark plug is still in place. Then remove the spark plug, and press the kickstarter down by hand a couple of times again. You should feel a substantial difference in compression.
If you found quite a difference in compression the compression on your engine should be okay - but the spark at the spark plug could be too weak.
The DC CDI’s on our scooters have capasitors which boosts voltage from the battery to create a proper spark. If the capisitors get faulty, the spark might be too weak.
So I think maybe it’s about time to try another CDI - the CDI on your scooter might be faulty.
-
That idle/low speed jet is very small. You must be able to see a bright light through both. Additionally, there are passages in the carb body that must be blown clear. The ethanol sludge can plug up a dam!
The carb was not gummed up, other than that speck of dirt in the idle jet I was actually surprised at how clean it was.
-
You can check whether the combustion chamber gets fuel by checking the spark plug after the engine was swinging a couple of times and it did not start.
If the spark olug is wet, it means the engine gets fuel.
You previously mentioned that you have tested for spark, and the scooter have spark. If the spark is weak or the engine compression is too low, the engine will not start.
You can feel the engine compression by hand - by pressing the kickstarter down while the spark plug is still in place. Then remove the spark plug, and press the kickstarter down by hand a couple of times again. You should feel a substantial difference in compression.
If you found quite a difference in compression the compression on your engine should be okay - but the spark at the spark plug could be too weak.
The DC CDI’s on our scooters have capasitors which boosts voltage from the battery to create a proper spark. If the capisitors get faulty, the spark might be too weak.
So I think maybe it’s about time to try another CDI - the CDI on your scooter might be faulty.
It has plenty of compression and the spark plug is wet after cranking.
Is the CDI the black box located next to the battery?
-
It has plenty of compression and the spark plug is wet after cranking.
Is the CDI the black box located next to the battery?
Correct - the black box next to the battery.
-
Might want to try a new CDI, I had a similar problem to yours. My OEM cdi only lasted about 900 km before dying
-
Might want to try a new CDI, I had a similar problem to yours. My OEM cdi only lasted about 900 km before dying
Where did you buy your CDI?
-
Where did you buy your CDI?
I have been through several different CDI's The ones on amazon are decent. However, it really depends on the manufacture and how the unit is made. Here is the link to the one that I am running now. I just replaced it around 1,000 Km ago and it is still preforming perfectly, Its a cheap unit but I purchaced another OEM one off of ebay just in case the unit from Amazon Fails.
YOFMOO Performance Racing 6 Pin DC CDI Box Compatible for GY6 50cc - 90cc 110cc 125cc 150cc 200cc 250cc Scooter ATV Go Kart Moped Quad Dune Buggy Pit Dirt Bike Kymco Agility People Sento 50 125 150
by Yingshop
Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KWYBM6G/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_xho3FbP5EFDMQ?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KWYBM6G/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_xho3FbP5EFDMQ?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1)
just by looking at the threads I can probably guess that you had the same problem that I had, ScooterFan also reccomended to me that I replace the regulator Rectifier, The part was cheap so I replaced it. I dont know if this was the issue for my failing CDI's But I havent had one fail as of yet ( Knock on wood) ::)
-
Problem solved.....I ordered a new CDI and it finally was delivered this morning, went out plugged it in turned the key pushed the start button, it cranked over two or three times and it fired right up, that's the fastest it's ever started cold since I've owned the scooter so I assume the CDI has been slowly failing. I enclosed the link to the one I bought off Amazon. Thanks again to all that took the time to help out, after all I've done I can say I know a lot more about this scooter now than i did before it wouldn't start.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008ADD3W6/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008ADD3W6/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
-
Good to see you got the scooter going.
Like I mentioned elsewhere - I am not sure but I think there is a possibility that a faulty Voltage Regular can cause CDI problems if the voltage output is too high. So maybe you must just use a Multimeter at the battery to see what voltage reading you get when the engine is running.
-
Is there a test for the CDI and reg/rect that would show them faulty?
-
Is there a test for the CDI and reg/rect that would show them faulty?
If I remember correctly I’ve seen a “how to test a CDI” video on YouTube but I never tried to do a similar test. I always carry a brand new CDI in stock just in case the CDI on my scooter packs up. The CDI’s are not that expensive and I believe all Agility owners should actually have an extra CDI in stock.
Considering the symptoms described at this thread I do not know whether the CDI test I’ve seen on YouTube will give a clear indication that any given CDI will be faulty or not. In this case the owner did get spark with the old CDI - but the engine still did not spark.
Therefore I think Agility owners should rather forget about trying a CDI test - rather keep an extra CDI in stock at all times. It can easily make life a lot easier by using it as a “plug in an play” component.
-
If I remember correctly I’ve seen a “how to test a CDI” video on YouTube but I never tried to do a similar test. I always carry a brand new CDI in stock just in case the CDI on my scooter packs up. The CDI’s are not that expensive and I believe all Agility owners should actually have an extra CDI in stock.
Considering the symptoms described at this thread I do not know whether the CDI test I’ve seen on YouTube will give a clear indication that any given CDI will be faulty or not. In this case the owner did get spark with the old CDI - but the engine still did not start..
Therefore I think Agility owners should rather forget about trying a CDI test - rather keep an extra CDI in stock at all times. It can easily make life a lot easier by using it as a “plug in an play” component.
-
Is there a test for the CDI and reg/rect that would show them faulty?
found this on youtube...not so much a test as a fix..which shows that it wasn't working..? Guy uses a heat gun to heat up the CDI..says solder joints crack inside over time and the heating it up expands them to make contact, again. I had the same problem on an old Sony tv years ago...thing had to run for about 15 minutes to heat up enough to make the solder connections and get the picture back!
https://youtu.be/Rvj5wNpYkrY