KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: tomheet on October 09, 2010, 01:20:15 AM
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I stopped by our local kymco mechanic, he adjusted my idle and mix screw for me in about 30 seconds. Now when I stop for a couple of minutes, it starts up on the first try, instead of 3 so I think he did something right.
Then he tells me I should run 87 octane gas. Says it burns much better. I cringed at doing this "cause the manual says..." syndrome I have. It can't do anything bad for 1 tank, I figure. So I added 1 ounce of seafoam, and topped off the nearly empty tank with 87. After a couple of blocks, I heard a godawful vibration when really getting on the throttle, like it was really over-reving. I rocked side to side for a while, hoping I just needed to get the seafoam mixed good and proper. The noise went away soon after, so I guess it's all good.
What do you all think of 87 Oct... good. or bad idea?
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I'm told that 87 works fine - but I stick with the 93 myself and don't do the seafoam thing.
I've thought about trying the 87, but it's been 2 years running 93 and I haven't had any issues so I'm not going to mess with success.
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OS- can't say i'd blame you for not messing with what works. stick with it. I look at it as trouble shooting 1 step at a time. If it doesn't help, I'm going right back to the manual specs. And, I'm not trying my new irridium plug untill I try the new gas first.
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My scoot's too new to comment, but, yeah...they tried to tell me to run the 87 too.
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The octane issue is one of those things where I don't know what to believe.
Some say using 93 is better, other say it can cause problems so use 87.
I remember the old days where I used to buy 86 octane at Beer World in Gainesville because it was cheap.
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..tomheet...i've ran 93 octane from day one...
..got 54,000 kms on my 08 agility50...
..seafoam is a very good cleaner of carbon deposits in your combustion chamber and exhaust...
...a new scoot shouldn't need it for quite some time...i ran my new scoot for over 40,000 kms before i started needing it..but by then i REALLY needed a good carbon cleaning...
..unless you start doing some mods, and stand the chance of running rich while your tuning....use any system cleaner at your own discretion..if it sounds dirty..clean it...
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ah yes, I don't know but just guessing the epa compliant carb regulations maybe overly complicate things for scooters. I'm no expert, but were carbs for dirt bikes or mopeds this complicated in the 70's, 80's ?
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To this point, I've used some sta-bil a couple of times over the 2 years I've being running the scoot when I thought I might have had some water in the tank but nothing else.
But I've got a long way to go before I reach 40,000 kms....
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..the restrictions are for speed laws only..
..these scooters are engineered to perform much better than when they roll off the shop floor..
..that being said...every scoot has it's own relative personality..
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I wanna reach 1,000! :'(
So they think 87 is better, So they think 93 will hurt it? I'm not sure of their logic.
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every scoot has it's own relative personality..
...or personality disorder in some cases...
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...or personality disorder in some cases...
..yes...
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...or personality disorder in some cases...
Figures I would get the one with the Personality Disorder!!! :D
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Forget seafoam, add some anti-depressents to the gas tank.
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:D :D :D
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Figures I would get the one with the Personality Disorder!!!
..dammit..........
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word, you put something in perspective for me. 53,000 km on your agility. Not sure why I got so obsessed about carb cleaning, hell, I just turned 2800 km today. Thats 1800 mi, the engine likely is not even fully broken in yet! Could these quirky start up problems be related to that? Now I recall many of the cold start ppl 50 issues were those with low mileage engines.
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So they think 87 is better, So they think 93 will hurt it? I'm not sure of their logic.
From what I understand, the thought is that running 93 if not needed will lead to unburned fuel which will foul the engine.
But I don't buy into that and continue using the 93.
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Thats 1800 mi, the engine likely is not even fully broken in yet! Could these quirky start up problems be related to that?
..dang..hell yeah...you got a baby...
..gotta nurse it for a lil while..
..observe what it does...how it evolves...
..adjust your idle mix on your carb a bit...
..change your oil a cpl times, just to be sure..
..AND RIDE IT LIKE YOU JUST STOLE IT!!!
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.AND RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!!!
Oh yeah, I've been doing that! (and some of the other things)
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..gonna need to adjust those valves pretty soon as well...
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I thought valves were at 4,000. :-\
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.04mm
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..sooner th' better...lol..
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Yeah, I had to run out and adjust the valves after I joined the forum....or Word wouldn't talk to me again.
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actually, I've got the 2 stroke version. No valves right? Or am I wrong about that?
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actually, I've got the 2 stroke version. No valves right? Or am I wrong about that?
..lmao..yup!!..
..no valves!!
..you gots reeds!!
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Lol, gonna make you adjust 'em anyway, tom! ;D
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..aaannnd that'sa whole new ballgame!!
..baaatter-uuup!!
:D
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My ppl 50 has 3,500 km , I have always run 93 octane . It may not really need 93 but im not buying that it will hurt anything . I almost always run seafoam also . I have heard that premium gas is more likely to be contaminated with condensation because it sells more slowly in most service stations and therefore sits in the underground tank longer . Maybe an urban myth but if it is true the seafoam takes care of it .
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Rianna, yer gonna give me a nervous breakdown! I might need to take the anti-depressents out of the gas tank, and ingest them!!
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As always, lots of good stuff to read and think about.(lots of laughs to) Think I'm coming down with flue or something, time for beddy bye. Thanks y'all, and good evening!!
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..peace out tom!!..
;D
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OH NO!! So sorry, tom. Didn't mean to make ya nervous. I was just having a bit of fun with ya. :)
Goodnight tom!
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well i may as well put my 2 cents worth in... :D i run 93 octane/w octane boost all the time and thanks to a few here i also throw in seafoam. ;) forget 87 octane. :D i do run it in the lawnmower tho. :D ;D
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i do run it in the lawnmower tho.
..i got a latino yard crew that cuts mine for me...lol...
..25 bucks every 4 or 5 weeks or so...lol..
:o
..been hot here this year...
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i am my own latino around here. :D :D :D gets cut every week, well was. did skip last week. ;) dam skippy, its been hot this summer.. already had frost here last week, mon. and tues.. :o :-\
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found this online
Fuel octane requirements for gasoline engines vary with the compression ratio of the engine; Engine compression ratio is the relative volume of a cylinder from the bottom most position of the piston's stroke to the top most position of the piston's stroke. The higher an engine's compression ratio, the greater the amount of heat generated in the cylinder during the compression stroke. Posted octane numbers on gasoline pumps are a result of testing fuel performance under laboratory and actual operating conditions. The higher the octane rating on fuel the less volatile (evaporative qualities) and the slower the fuel burns. Higher octane fuel contains more POTENTIAL energy but requires the higher heat generated by higher compression ratio engines to properly condition the fuel to RELEASE that higher potential energy. In the refining process, fewer gallons of higher octane fuels are yielded from a barrel of raw crude, thus the higher cost. If fuel octane is too low for a given compression ratio, the fuel prematurely and spontaneously ignites too early and the fuel charge EXPLODES rather than BURNS resulting in incomplete combustion. The net effect is a loss in power and possible engine damage. The operator hears an audible "knock" or "ping", referred to as detonation. Detonation may vary from a faint noise on light acceleration to a constant, deep hammering noise while driving at a constant speed. Improper timing adjustments, vacuum leaks, or excessively lean fuel mixtures may also cause detonation. Many vehicle owners believe that higher octane fuels are better for their vehicles since they are labeled "PREMIUM." The logic is that since it is a premium fuel it must be better. In reality, the premium label originates from the higher cost to refine and the resultant higher retail cost. Some refiners label their high octane fuels "SUPER." Some owners think that these fuels will make their vehicles more powerful. This is a MYTH! Only engines with high compression ratios can deliver all the potential energy from higher octane fuels! Always consult the manufacturer's octane recommendation to determine the proper octane requirements for any given vehicle. Generally, engines with compression ratios of 9.3 : 1 or less will safely operate with unleaded 87 octane fuel. Engines with higher compression ratios usually require higher octane fuels. But many modern engines will safely burn 87 octane even with a higher compression ratio. This is accomplished by way to the engine fuel/air management system. Many owners who operate vehicles designed to operate on 87 octane fuel experience ping and knock. They usually "fix" this problem by purchasing the higher priced, higher octane fuels. Most owner's manuals indicate that some light and intermittent ping is normal but that heavy or sustained ping or knock should be attended to by either purchasing the correct octane fuel or servicing the engine. Most fuel refiners blend fuels for geographic areas and adjust their blends seasonally. These blending techniques compensate for the decrease in oxygen content with an increase in altitude and compensate for volatility during the warmer or cooler seasons. Significant ambient temperature changes (40 degrees Fahrenheit) or altitude changes (4,000 feet) may cause some serious engine detonation. This problem is usually corrected by filling the tank with "local" fuel that has been properly blended for season and altitude. Bottom line is do not waste your money on a fuel with a higher octane than your engine requires. You reap no benefits, and are just wasting money.
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conley, thanks for posting that. At the end of the day, this "proves" that going with the manual specs usually is the correct way to approach things. It's like with engine oil, many people (I among them) believed you should go with a lighter weight in winter, heavier in the summer. Nonsense, with today's tight tolerance engines. An engine is DESIGNED with a particular oil weight in mind, and running a heavier oil will PREVENT proper lubrication. I switched back to the service manual recommended 92-95 octane. And, running 87 octane did not cause cold starting to be any easier. nonetheless, interesting reading.
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..very good reading....
;D
..still...speaking from my own experience, with my first scooter, a 2008 agility 50 4t...
..she ALWAYS performs better with 93 octane fuel, as opposed to 87...
..i've tried 87 several times, and every time i did, my scoot's overall performance...from idle all the way to full-throttle down-hills running, fell off....when burning the lower octane fuel...
..
..every engine setup is different...
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The article found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) shows how octane is measured differently in various countries. Here are a few lines from the link:
"Anti-Knock Index (AKI)
In most countries, including all of those of Australia and Europe the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States and some other countries, like Brazil, the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI, and often written on pumps as (R+M)/2). It may also sometimes be called the Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2.
Difference between RON and AKI
Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, the octane rating shown in the United States is 4 to 5 points lower than the rating shown elsewhere in the world for the same fuel."
This could explain why the required octane rating found in some (all?) Kymco owner's manuals is higher than what is typically used in the U.S.
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Thank you, Calothrix. I have wondered about that.
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You're welcome!
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92 octane in Europe is about 89 octane in the USA. When I filled up with 89 in the winter I had trouble getting the engine started. That's why I am always using 92 now.
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92 octane in Europe is about 89 octane in the USA. When I filled up with 89 in the winter I had trouble getting the engine started. That's why I am always using 92 now.
Usually in Western Europe you cannot get anything less than 95 octane.
We had 91 octane as the first lead free gasoline 20 years ago, and I still remember lead gasoline that was 87 I think when I was a kid. :)
I've seen 89-90-91-92 in the East, for example, in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan...
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Axy, what I was just comparing the octane ratings due to the different knock indexes being used.
As for Western Europe I am a bit surprised. I thought in Germany the lowest rating was 89 ...mmh.. maybe 91!. But definitely not 95. Or am I wrong? Maybe time for a visit...
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Talking about octane is like talking about oil, politics, and religion.
Everyone has there beliefs. I have been building, tuning engines for over 25 years.
To get the most power from a combustion engine.
The lowest octane before detonation. Detention is pre ignition when the spark occurs before the piston is TDC top dead center on the power stroke.
97% of people think... Ahhhh high octane bigger explosion, faster burn clean.... right? WRONG!!!!!
Lower octane has a faster flash point compared to "premium, high grade" fuel.
OK, for those of you that know about high compression engines used in race engines this application MUST use higher octane fuels to slow the burn rate down as the piston is coming up. Compression is will ignite faster then a lower compression engine. When I say race engines with high compression I am talking 13:1 + ratio higher. Such as diesel engines are VERY HIGH in compression so diesel fuel has a very low flash point or octane due to the compression will ignite the fuel.
So back to simplying this answer. By putting high grade fuel in your low compression engine such as 10:1 you are wasting your money and also forcing unburnt fuel through your valves and exhaust which leads to carbon build up.
There are many articles if you google keywords octane physics. I will say this,, high test fuels have detergents in them to keep the EPA happy but in actuality your doing more harm with carbon build up that your little scoot cant burn 100%
Use the lowest octane such as 87 octane if you dont here any pinging in your engine under a load/ If you do here a pinging move up to 89 but you should NEVER need high octane in a stock compression scooter.
Some will argue this and disagree cause when most here premium they think YEAH THATS THE BEST and i want the best for my scoot! The onlything premimum is the price you are paying at the pump.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/question90.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/question90.htm)
Ohhh but wait,, you say "My manual says to use 93 octane... BUT thats in ASIA and EUROPE where octane rating is different then fuel here in the US.. Read, educate before posting facts you think or have been mislead on.
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Use the lowest octane such as 87 octane if you dont here any pinging in your engine under a load/ If you do here a pinging move up to 89 but you should NEVER need high octane in a stock compression scooter.
..sorry, but my a50 would strongly disagree...
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Okay, so this is where I kick myself for having gotten involved in this. But since I did get involved I will say this:
It's fine that people have different opinions and/or facts about something and have a discussion about it, but you can disagree with someone without having to insult them.
(and I'm referring to the "Read, educate before posting facts you think or have been mislead on.")
I think that was unnecessary and don't want to see another nasty thread started here.
And as Forrest Gump would say "That's all I have to say about that"
p.s. thanks to Pedro for not PMing me a 'told you so".
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...80% of what i say here is from my own experiences...
..10% comes from reading stuff...
..the other is mostly bullsh**...lol...
..some might argue about those percentages, but i reckon i cant stand to tell somebody something that has no fact as a base...
..every engine's setup IS different...what works for mine..well, it works!!!
..don't give a CRAP about what SHOULD be working, or whether or not it's the ABSOLUTE ONLY way...
..there are very few absolutes....
;)
peace
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Use the lowest octane such as 87 octane if you dont here any pinging in your engine under a load/ If you do here a pinging move up to 89 but you should NEVER need high octane in a stock compression scooter.
..sorry, but my a50 would strongly disagree...
Pinging is also caused by a lean condition. Which is very common with scooters brought to the US to meet the strict US EPA standards. Its not uncommon to see a performance increase by a simple main jet increase by 1 or 2 sizes.
So basically your masking the problem. Rejet your carburetor properly and then you will be able to run lower octane fuel and have better performace.
Lean condition improperly jetted carburetor= not enough fuel ignites faster.
High Octane Fuel= Slower Burn.
Its all a timing thing.
Yes, you can fix your lean condition with higher octane fuel. Is this correct or is it the most proficient way, no.
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So basically your masking the problem. Rejet your carburetor properly and then you will be able to run lower octane fuel and have better performace.
..again...even when my scoot was fully restricted...just days off the showroom floor...93 octane fuel made a difference in how it ran...
???
...i jet my carb by means of performing and reading plug chops...
..it's the only sure way to assure that your engine is performing at it's optimum capabilities...
..there is no masking your plug...
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Pinging is also caused by a lean condition
..i've never heard a ping...in my engine...
..to be honest, and you can read waaay back in my posts...i've always ran a larger main jet than ANYBODY else here, with an a50 ......probably still am, as i'm running a 1.02mm at @ 60 degree average temp...
8)
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OH well, I'm thick skinned enough I guess. And its funny, cause all I did was quote what the manual recommended, not giving out mis-information. I will hang my head in shame LOL!! And, the reason i'm here is to GET educated! Thanks for the good info, including you lankeeyankee. I did not consider there might be differences in ratings in Asia versus the U.S
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..i reckon i'd use what runs best in my scoot...no matter what the octane rating...
..And its funny, cause all I did was quote what the manual recommended, not giving out mis-information.
..no, all the info in the thread is true!!!...
;)
..it just doesn't apply in every case...
..too many other variables...
peace
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In Europe 98-octane gasoline is common and in Japan even 100-octane is readily available at the pumps, but this octane nomenclature is misleading to Americans as foreign octane ratings are derived entirely differently from our own...
Your scooter manuals are all written in another country which uses Research Octane Number (RON) to give there value of octane, here in the US we use Anti-Knock Index (ANI) to put a value on our octane.
So, with the commonality of RON in mind a good rule of thumb is as follows, multiply the foreign RON Octane rating by 0.95 and you will have the US AKI equivalent.
Example: If your foreign manual tells you use 92 octane you use a formula to convert to US octane which is achieved by, 92X.095= 87.7.. My scooter owner manuals says to use 90 so using the formula to convert to US octane I should be using 90X.095= 85.5 octane.
But seems we have much smarter folks here then scientist / engineers that have researched octane of fuel.
"My scooter runs better with higher octane" is the same as saying my scooter has more power and is faster when I drilled holes in my exhaust. Put it on a dyno and I guarantee you will see no HP increase.
"Aint my ride"
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Mr Hanky's poo song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmiiLx10Vio#)
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I have an a50 (same year as wordslingers I think), and I run 95 octane, which is the lowest I can find. Premium is usually 99 octane, which my friend runs all the time with his two stroke. The bike I have must have done around 9km with 95 octane is it is the lowest around, no damage, and it's very quick off the line. I might try 99 octane and see what sort of performance increase/decrease I get, but I don't think it will harm it.
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But seems we have much smarter folks here then scientist / engineers that have researched octane of fuel.
..give me a break...
"My scooter runs better with higher octane" is the same as saying my scooter has more power and is faster when I drilled holes in my exhaust
..ain't your scoot, so i guess you just don't know, do you??
..i appreciate every bit of information that you're gleaning from various manuals and the internets and such..
..i still stand firm in saying i know how my scoot performs under various different conditions..
..horsepower notwithstanding..never said there was an increae in horsepower...
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This is one of those things where you go with what works for you. If the scoot is running well on whatever octane you run, then go with it.
Kind of a tastes great vs less filling debate I suppose, but people generally feel very confident that whatever they're using is working great for them.
You're not going to do any damage one way or the other.
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But seems we have much smarter folks here then scientist / engineers that have researched octane of fuel.
..give me a break...
"My scooter runs better with higher octane" is the same as saying my scooter has more power and is faster when I drilled holes in my exhaust
..ain't your scoot, so i guess you just don't know, do you??
..i appreciate every bit of information that you're gleaning from various manuals and the internets and such..
..i still stand firm in saying i know how my scoot performs under various different conditions..
..horsepower notwithstanding..never said there was an increae in horsepower...
.ain't your scoot, so i guess you just don't know, do you?
No you are correct its not my scoot. You have stated a fact,, cookie for you!
But it is a combustible engine that works on the same principle as every other combustible engine. The only thing that differs in this equation is the rider and you have proven you are different from others in many statements you have made that I, for some reason took the time to read hoping you may have something that is educational.
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..i was not trying to be educational, or force any of my opinions on anybody..
..simply stating what my observations concerning my scoot have been..
..your posts, have certainly been MUCH more educational than mine!!!..
you have proven you are different from others in many statements you have made
..cookies for everybody!!!!!
..YAY!!!!
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I hope we're not going to fight over cookies now...
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..i'm not fighting over anything...
;D
..chocolate cookies are the best, and there should be no others!!
;)
..and i'm not going to start with the personal attacks either...
..it's demeaning to the forum...
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I have more energy and can run faster if I am eating chocolate chip cookies rather then peanut butter cookies.
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So we have a consensus that chocolate chip cookies are the best - which is good because I thought there might some issues with Oreos...
Now the question remains, with milk or without?
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your thoughts on 87 octane gas
...doesn't that just say it all??
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..and i'm not going to start with the personal attacks either...
..it's demeaning to the forum...
You the man...
Glad you will be taking the high road...I expected nothing less!
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WHOA!!!... :o :o :o :o :o :o ::) :D ;) oh btw, i like cookies too.. FRESH and still warm from the oven, with OR w/o milk!. ;D :D
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...BATMAN!!!..you're baack!!
..you been spendin' way to much time fighting crime..
..wtf you been??!!...again..lol..
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the citizens never sleep....... crime never stops... :D ;D :D ;D :D
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Sorry guys, having just been to the "homeland" and now i'm in China i can definitively say that our scoots were designed to run on Dunkin' Doughnuts and NOT cookies.
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LOL. Hey, WT, We don't have Dunkin' Donuts where I live any more. But they have some yummy Chocolate Chip cake type Donuts. :D
Hope your trip is great!
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Well, as they say America runs on Dunkin'!
I love my Dunkin'. I don't even have to order anymore - I just walk in and they get my coffee ready without asking me what I want.
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My scooter runs on Italian Espresso. And when I add Seafoam, it's Capuccino.
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My scooter runs on Italian Espresso. And when I add Seafoam, it's Capuccino.
That's great Emil! I love it!! :D
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My scooter runs on Italian Espresso. And when I add Seafoam, it's Capuccino.
Nice!
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It seems the Kymco manual states, "Use unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 91 or higher."
The Research Octane Number (RON) is not what we use in the US, we use the Anti-Knock Index (AKI). There is also the Motor Octane Number (MON), further confusing the issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating)
In order to translate between RON (which the Kymco manual uses) and AKI (which US gas stations use), we have to do some math.
MON is a more stringent octane test than RON, so the MON will generally be 8-10 points lower than the MON.
So, we let this website do the calculations:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/calculators/anti-knock_index/ra/6k/ue/ (http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/calculators/anti-knock_index/ra/6k/ue/)
We know Kymco wants a RON of 91 or higher, so we plug that into the RON input on that page. We'll assume MON is 10 points lower than RON for this first run, so MON is 81.
The result is an AKI of 86. So, Kymco says with a RON of 91 and a MON of 81, we can run 87 AKI octane gas just fine (in other words, the 87 octane number as it shows at US gas pumps).
Let's do another calculation with the MON set 8 points lower than the RON.
That gives an AKI of 87. So again, we should be just fine running 87 octane gas in the scooter, according to the Kymco manual.
So, it would appear that running 87 octane (AKI) gas should be just fine for these scooters.
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I use the cheapest fuel there is ^_^ and everything I own works perfect on it ;)
now for the more pressing matters
Cooookie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9zmgTYp68#)
simple yep thats me no fighting here..... ::)
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If your bike runs fine on regular, then premium is a total waste of money. I have only owned one bike that didn't run fine on regular. My Super 8 does just fine on 87 octane. The higher the octane, the more resistant to preignition the gas is, that's it. There is no more energy in high octane gas.
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Wow! RON, MON, and AKI! You learn something everyday!
I've used the premium or higher octane gasoline in my motor bikes over the years will no ill effects and will continue to do so.
My experience has been that the bikes seem to start and run better on it! Was told the higher octane gas burns cleaner too but I never researched this myself.
You can use the 87 octane but I will stick to using 92 or 93 octane. Just my preference!