KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => LIKE 200i => Topic started by: Renee74 on June 11, 2020, 06:25:08 PM
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Hi All! I'm currently trying to fix my husbands Kymco Like 200i it is not starting. We have replaced parts and have tried several different things. I would really appreciate any help. I posted a video on YouTube to show what the Scooter is doing (I thought it would be easier than trying to describe the problem) It does seem like it wants to turn over but I'm getting nowhere. The failure code seems to blink 6 times and then repeat itself. If anyone has any advice that would be awesome! I would love to get it running for him again.
https://youtu.be/uVHVCaSUyUs
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6 is a weak battery, or poor/loose/dirty power wires at the battery posts.
Let's go look at your video....
History please - it was running fine until....??
Or never has run right since your purchase.
Miles please?
Tip-overs or wrecks?
Replacing the ECU is pretty major replacement part!
How long since valves were checked?
Let's get those hoses back on....
checking now...
Stig
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Thanks for the reply.I thought maybe it was the battery too once I found the failure codes online. I've charged the battery quite a few times so I'm wondering if its maybe gone bad.
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Thanks for the reply.I thought maybe it was the battery too once I found the failure codes online. I've charged the battery quite a few times so I'm wondering if its maybe gone bad.
Please try one very good battery source - you can jump from a 12V car battery IF the car is NOT running at the same time.
Although - it seems to be spinning fine.
Is brake light on when you turn on key and pull brake lever?
Why is the scoot all apart?
Stig
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Yes sorry I didn't see your full reply at first. For the history part it has 2931 miles on it my husband bought it new from the dealership. He did wipe out on it at one point a year after he bought it and it was still driveable so he brought it back to the dealership to be repaired (mainly the panels needed replaced and a mirror) they had it at the dealership for months do to them ordering the wrong parts. When he did get it back he drove it for almost 6 months before it just died on him on the highway. He decided to replace the clutch not sure why and when I came down to the garage the whole scooter was apart. lol I'm currently trying to put everything back together but I've never worked on a scooter before. We do work on our own cars and do a lot of our own repairs so I thought it wouldn't be to hard to firgure out. The ECU was replaced because the failure code it was reading before. I have not checked the valves. I've been obsessed over these hoses for months now. My husband says they just hang there I love him but I believe 2 of them go somewhere else. Thanks I really appreciate your time.
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Brake light does come on
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Brake light does come on
With those miles wouldn't worry about the valves being a problem.
Can you give us a good clear slow pan look down into the engine bay so that we can see if something looks amiss.
Or a couple of photos...?
You checked the fuses by the battery yes?
Absolutely sure the Mr. didn't short something and trip a fuse while he was in there without adult supervision (you)?
We'll get the hoses sorted - if I have to go pull my seat to have a look, I will.
Stig
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Yes I have photos but not sure how to share them on here. He said he checked the fuses but somethings look a little weird over by the battery now that I'm looking at it.
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OK, your hose with the wire clip on it goes from the valve cover, under a plastic clip, then under a wire clip and makes that (built-in) right turn to fasten just under the fatter hose in the photo..
You can just see your clip showing under that fat hose....just below the golden colored starter cyclinder. There is a place to plug your hose into there.
Hopefully....I'm working off some old photos of my engine bay.
Let me know if that's not working for you.
Maybe one hose down now, yes?
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncsDhS2k/like-VALVES26-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rhMxpvR)
Stig
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Thanks for the reply.I thought maybe it was the battery too once I found the failure codes online. I've charged the battery quite a few times so I'm wondering if its maybe gone bad.
OK, maybe a nice slow, well focused youtube look at your engine bay. Please lay that loose no-clip hose in there so we can figure it out.
The other hose we have sorted....
The bad news is that I do not think those hoses can keep your scooter from starting.
You really installed a new ECU?!….with a new throttle body...or just the black ECU?
Do you smell fuel when you crank it?
Stig
Stig
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Do you hear fuel pump run for a few seconds with key on?
Stig
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https://youtu.be/aNRtxxN_ic4 Also my bad I know I said carburetor haha I did not smell fuel when turning on and the fuel pump does seem to be working. I did notice the battery seems drained now even though I charged it again earlier this morning.
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Hello Renee, I think I might know where the other hose connects. Look on your old "carb" and see if it has the circled inlet port. The older throttle bodies had this port to connect the evap cannister to the incoming air from the filter. The newer replacements do not . If it has the fitting your mystery hose connects to it. If you don't have the fitting just vent the evap hose to the ground and zip tie it in place. I had this issue when I replaced my throttle body a few years back and the guys at Kymco USA told be to just vent the the hose. As to the code problem it could be that your battery is just kaput!
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Renee,
Is your LIKE200i from around 2013?
We have had at least two LIKE200i's which experienced rotted fuel line inside the fuel tank. The short line from the pump to the top of the tank - 3>4". rotted and prevented the scooter from starting. These scooters had one thing in common - they had sat for an extended period of time (on the dealer's showroom floor, or at home) without being run.
Some LIKE's from around 2013 seemed to have been assembled with a bad batch of these small rubber lines... If left to sit in fuel they can rot.
If you get a new/good battery and still have a no start please let us know.
Stig
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First off, I do have to say I really appreciate all the information and help. The scooter is a 2013 bought new in March of 2014. How would I be able to check for rotted lines? I will check the throttle body and see if it has the port for that hose. I'm about to leave to go buy a new battery. Thanks again!
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First off, I do have to say I really appreciate all the information and help. The scooter is a 2013 bought new in March of 2014. How would I be able to check for rotted lines? I will check the throttle body and see if it has the port for that hose. I'm about to leave to go buy a new battery. Thanks again!
The suspect line is the short black hose on top of the pump cylinder.
If it rots it can clog, or leak out of its side, or send junk into the injector - because the fuel filter is on the bottom of the pump!
You need to disconnect the battery, remove the fuel and electric connectors on top of the tank - undo all of those little hex screws and pry off the assembly.
It takes a littlie "prying" to get it off.
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=28759.0 (https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=28759.0)
but hopefully your new battery will do the trick.
Remember, the LIKE's EFI does not usually like any throttle when starting.
Stig
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So I put the new battery in and the Celp light is still blinking 6 and when I tried to start the scooter (by holding the brake and hitting the start button) it was still making the same noise but then I heard a "pop" almost like it backfired? Got a little nervous so I shut it off. There are some wires near the battery and fuses can anyone tell me if they are relevent? 3 wires grouped together.
Also the port on the throttle body already has a hose attached to it that runs to a T connecting to the evap.
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https://youtu.be/sl6cfeSWQ7Q
I wanted to add a link for another video because I can't figure out how to post images haha and because on further inspection I found another black hose running from the fuel tank not attached to anything. (seems suspicious to me)
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https://youtu.be/sl6cfeSWQ7Q
I wanted to add a link for another video because I can't figure out how to post images haha and because on further inspection I found another black hose running from the fuel tank not attached to anything. (seems suspicious to me)
The large hose from the top of the tank is a fuel overflow to ground so that if you overfill at the gas pump it will just spill to the pavement. The wires near the battery do they look like the ones in the attached pic? If so they are for re- initializing the fuel injection after replacement of the throttle body. You may need to do that, if you do Stig can give you instructions.
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Thanks good to know! I was thinking that too but wasn't sure considering there were so many hoses disconnected. I feel like im getting somewhere with this project....gonna keep digging. Thank you all again!
Yes those are the wires and the old throttle body is connected to the new ECU
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Thanks good to know! I was thinking that too but wasn't sure considering there were so many hoses disconnected. I feel like im getting somewhere with this project....gonna keep digging. Thank you all again!
Yes those are the wires and the old throttle body is connected to the new ECU
"The throttle position sensor (TPS) and idle air bypass valve (ISC) have to be reset when throttle body, MAP, TPS, ISC or ECU have been reinstalled."
RESET PROCEDURE
1) under the battery cover - near the battery find the PINK wire.
2) turn key on, do not start, touch PINK wire to Neg. battery terminal...or to a body/frame ground.
3) turn key off.
Do NOT leave PINK wire connected to battery, or frame, do NOT leave key on.
You can use a jumper wire to do this or, remove shield on pink wire and touch with it.
A very good maintenance source for your scooter is www.cyclepedia.com (http://www.cyclepedia.com)
I purchased their book and download years ago - use it often.
Stig
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Stig I have been trying to find a diagram of the EVAP system that indicates the position and routing for the Like but could not. Is this in the Cyclepedia guide? If it is it would help Renee to at least find where that last hose connects.
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Thanks! I will have to get a jumper wire tomorrow the pink wire with casing would not reach to the neg. terminal. It's just weird that the celp light is still blinking the same 6 even with the new battery in. It's very frustrating! I did purchase the cyclepedia for it. I really appreciate all of the help. He would be so excited if I could get this running.
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In the manual there should be a procedure for clearing codes, do that. If the code goes away great if not there could be another issue. Have you tried using starter fuel to see if the engine will start?
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I will definitely try to clear the codes. I have not tried to use starter fuel to see if it will start sorry im not sure quite what you mean. Are you talking about where the air filter is located?
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You guys are the best! I didn't realize you would have to clear the codes when installing the new battery. It actually took me a few times to clear the codes but no failure codes are popping up now. YAY! frickin finally! (I checked like 3 times just to be safe haha) I will work on re setting the ECU tomorrow when I can find a jumper wire. Then I guess I'll try to start her up again and go from there. Thanks again!
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WOO HOO we're getting somewhere! Good luck with the ECU reset that could do it but we''ll be ready with more ideas.
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Thanks for all the info guys! Still trying to figure out how im going to reset the ECU. Is there anything I can use to make a jumper wire? Sorry if it sounds silly but I've never done a reset before and the parts store suggested a ground strap.
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Generally, code erase/ECU reset can be accomplished by disconnecting one battery lead for 30 seconds to 30 minutes. The pink lead to ground does the initialize thing with TPS & ISC.
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Thanks! I'll give it a try.
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When I did the initializing procedure on my Like I used a piece of solid copper ground wire with rubber insulation of course. Just get a piece that will slip into the socket at the end of the pink wire. You will need to strip back the insulation a bit to insert into the pink connector. It only take a short touch to the negative pole of the battery to do the trick. This is done with key on and then turn off. Do not leave the grounding wire connected after you do the procedure. Just follow the instructions that Stig gave you.
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Thanks! I was able to make the connection and followed Stigs instructions thoroughly. After I turned the key off I did wait a few mins before I tried to start it up. When I started it up it was still making the same noise (sounds flooded or it wants to start) good news is it's not throwing any more codes. I might have to investigate the fuel system because the electrical seems to be working fine and Stig did mention possible rodded line in tank. I do hear the pump come on when I turn the key.
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Are you sure that you have a spark at the plug? I thought of a really dumb possibility but it is worth a try. On the right handlebar there is a RED switch above the started button. I could see in your video that it is in the run position. Have tried to switch it to off and then on again? You might try to squirt some contact cleaner or WD-40 into the switch and then move it back and forth a few times. It could be that it is corroded from sitting and I should say that this is a long shot but worth a go.
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Are you sure that you have a spark at the plug? I thought of a really dumb possibility but it is worth a try. On the right handlebar there is a RED switch above the started button. I could see in your video that it is in the run position. Have tried to switch it to off and then on again? You might try to squirt some contact cleaner or WD-40 into the switch and then move it back and forth a few times. It could be that it is corroded from sitting and I should say that this is a long shot but worth a go.
Blue, Good point on the kill switch.
Also, I like the starter fluid squirt into neck of the air intake. If that fires it up....
Then we crank it for a few seconds, and then remove the spark plug?
Look for a wet plug, smell gasoline is reaching the engine?....this is easier than removing the injector and looking for a squirt....and safer :)
If it stinks of fuel.....leave plug out for a couple of hours - might be flooded.
If starts with starter fluid for a few seconds and NO smell of fuel with plug removed....- then we're getting close.
Also, look for spark when grounding the plug on the head?
Stig
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That's what I am wondering if it cranks as it does but no start maybe no spark.
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Thanks guys! So the starter fluid did not work. :-\ So removed spark plug and it does smell of gas. I've taken out so hopefully it will dry up.
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Okay so now it's time to find out if you have spark at the plug. First did you try the kill switch flip back and forth after a spritz with WD-40 or contact cleaner. The kill switch will let the starter turn BUT does not energize the spark plug. If it's faulty all the gas in the world won't start it. To test the plug insert it in the ignition cap and hold it against the cylinder head or an unpainted bit of metal (warning wear rubber gloves or hold with a non-metal clamp). Have someone turn on the key and hit the starter. You should see a nice bright spark across the plug gap if not then something is wrong in the ignition system or the kill switch could be faulty.
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Awesome, thank you for the advice. I'll go ahead and spray the kill switch and try that too. I was letting the plug dry out and I'll go ahead and test for spark. Thanks for the warning too. :-) Just waiting for this storm to pass so I can get down to the garage.
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Hey guys so I went ahead a sprayed the kill switch on each side and flipped it a few times. Then I checked the spark plug and it did have a spark. yay! but bad news is when I put the spark plug back in and clicked the ignition cap back on and started the scoot up it's was still making the same noise. Could the fuel injector maybe clogged?
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I listened to the first video during the start sequence. It sounds like no comression!
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When the scooter died while your husband was riding did it ever run since then?
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Thanks for the replies and no it hasn't run since it died on him.
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If you have a compression tester or can borrow one I would try that next. If the starter fuel didn't work and you have spark checking compression would be next. That would indicate if you have a valve adjustment issue or perhaps a bad piston or rings, sorry for that!
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Thanks. We might have a tester in the garage i'll check on that. After reading the replies again maybe I did the starter fuel wrong because I did have the plug in when I tried to start the scooter. :-\ I'll try again and find a tester for the compression and cross my fingers that it's not bad piston or rings.
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The plug did need to be in when trying to start with the starter fuel. If it is an injector problem it would start and run on the starter fuel for a few seconds and then die but you would know that combustion is happening. If no compression or very weak it would not run. A good compression reading would be 150-200psi.
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Okay good I will try it again just to make sure and find a tester for the compression. Thanks for the info I was trying to find out what a good compression reading would be. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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Hey guys sorry it took so long had to go back to my real job haha I did the compression test several times and I got nothing. Zero. I've been trying to do some more research maybe finding a new engine for it might be my best option. Any opinions or advice would be great.
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Zero is not possible! Well, it's UNLIKELY! However it fits with your video sound track that I heard.
So, now, we get to the WHY of no compression. What I would suggest is to remove the air cleaner cover and inspect the filter, the inside of the cover and inlet. All air passages clear from cover snout to throttle body? If yes, then next:
Remove the cam/valve cover, just like you would do to check/set the valves. You can then check:
1. Timing chain in place?
2. Timing of cam correct?
3. Any thing look alarming with cam lobes, bearings, rockers, valve stems, springs & keepers?
Report back you findings and we'll go from there.
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Yeah I tried it several times thinking I might have done something wrong but compression test is pretty straight forward and I got nothing. I'm just stumped at this point.
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Finger in the spark plug hole, throttle wide open....hit starter. Nothing?
Husband was running on the highway, full throttle probably....how many miles - how many minutes at full song, with adequate oil level?
Before searching for a new engine....maybe remove the valve cover and turn engine over clockwise by hand with a 14mm socket in center of white fan.
Feel for compression with the spark plug in.
Chain in place?
Valves opening and closing?
Stig
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Wow, NOTHING, yep I fully agree time to open the valve cover and check the top end.
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Okay guys I couldn't really feel any compression when I did the finger test so I took the valve cover off and it seems like there is oil inside which I figured there would be a little but when I smelled it, it smelled like gas (might have been my hands from spark plug though) The chain does look to be in place and the valves do move up and down when turning the engine. The bottom valve does seem to be loose compared to the top. I made a quick video to show.
https://youtu.be/VXYwhu_dpfU
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That is a lot of movement the valves should be set at .004 in. at TDC. Check out this video on Youtube for the procedure...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipDXgGdh6o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipDXgGdh6o)
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Thanks. I did find and watch the video while disassembling and thought the same thing. These valves are really loose. I was having a hard time adjusting them. I'll have to watch the video a few more times. Had to leave the garage because my old pup wanted to go outside.
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When you get the piston to top-dead-center on the compression stroke there should be a tiny fraction of movement - how much? - less than millimeter.
YouTube of the valve process by a member.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipDXgGdh6o&t=392s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipDXgGdh6o&t=392s)
Also, with the other markers - You may need to insert a straw into sparkplug hole to find the stroke to TDC properly.....
Get the valves adjusted - then we may have compression .
Stig
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At least it's nice to see that there is oil in the valve cover and that the chain is still functioning.
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Thanks for all the advice guys. Also excellent video. I think I got the valves adjusted properly but I do have a question Stig about the TDC? What is the TDC? I know you said put a straw where the spark plug hole. Should I leave the spark plug out while doing that?
Also Happy Father's Day to all the Dads out there! :)
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Update after doing the valve adjustment and putting everything back together I tried turning the scooter on and it still sounds flooded so I took the spark plug out again and it wasn't as wet but did smell of fuel. I'm going to check the valves again just to be sure. ugh
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TDC is top dead center it is the point on the COMPRESSION STROKE when the valves are both closed and the plug ignites the fuel charge. The piston can be up in the cylinder and NOT at TDC that would be the exhaust stroke. To tell whether you are at the right position the piston should be up AND both valves should have a little wiggle. On the exhaust stroke the exhaust valve will be compressed by the tappet. It is possible to be 180 degrees off even though the alignment holes on the cam sprocket are in position. BTW you do have the plug out when doing the straw thing.
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Thanks I'll give that a try. I am wondering though....if the starter motor is bad could that cause the scoot to have zero compression? Maybe a silly question but it did cross my mind.
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A bad starter motor would not cause lack of compression. They usually fail in two ways either they just don't turn because the internal windings are shot or the starter clutch fails and the starter will turn but not engage to spin the engine. When you are turning over the engine with the socket on the fan nut the straw will indicate that the piston is moving up and down. Lack of compression can come from a failed piston a bad head gasket or a valve that is staying open.
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Thanks for the info. I'll give that a try.
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Renee, Thanks for the greeting!
I'm getting lost here....what procedure did you follow to adjust the valves. The youtube we posted, the cyclepedia.com instructions...?
With the plug installed you should very definitely feel the engine compressing as you rotate the engine with the 14mm socket turning the fan clockwise.
It should feel slightly harder, and then easy, to turn as you rotate the engine clockwise through the strokes.
If you feel nothing as you turn...I mean it just spins freely - please report! Remember - plug is in when you do this!
Stig.
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Stig do you think it could be possible that one of the valves could have a broken valve spring? That could account for the floppy tappets and/or the lack of compression.
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I can't quite tell from the vids... Have never seem so much movement over the valve stems!!
Broken spring - would be a first for a LIKE with so few miles....but something strange is going on here.
It is a bit tricky if the valve gap has been adjusted so far out of specs....that the old "align the chain sprocket properly and feel for a little up-down movement" to signify that you're at TDC on the proper stroke. Once that slight feel is lost - it is more work to find TDC. Peering in the view hole with a flashlight, while turning the engine over, straw in the spark plug hole, etc.
Once valves lash is adjusted even fairly close to proper specs - with the spark plug in...one must feel some compression resistance when turning the engine clockwise using the 14mm socket on the fan center.
If not....seems like something is broken, or gasket is blown....?
Renee is trying hard! If we can just get her to TDC...seems like she can adjust the valves.
Stig
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Agreed
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I just watched the last video where the clearance was about 1/4 to 5/16 of an inch! Way too much! When .004" is the specified, .250 to .3125" is too big!
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I just watched the last video where the clearance was about 1/4 to 5/16 of an inch! Way too much! When .004" is the specified, .250 to .3125" is too big!
To complicate things...no idea if that engine was at TDC.
Stig
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Renee for our info when you check valves again show us a pic of the position of the cam chain sprocket and the timing holes on the side of the sprocket. We want to see if you are at TDC.
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This is another interesting 5 page long mysterious unsolved story of a defect scooter - which is usually rocksolid and reliable, if treated nicely. Although so many forum members tried to help and put so much effort into it, the owners just opted out all of a sudden. Hmmmm....
After reading carefully what Renee wrote and watching the videos of the cylinder head and the very wrong huge valve gap, my guess and conclusion is as followed:
The scooter´s last run with "beloved hubbie" on the highway was with either the wrong oil and/or not enough oil, or a defect oilpump, therefore it got too hot and seezed the valves/valvestems in open position. Therefore the huge valve stem gap. And therefore no compression. Looking at the open cylinderhead I also do not notice or see as much motoroil as I would expect or I saw in this aerea on my scooter´s engine.
Also possible now is a temporary piston seizure or piston damage via open valves. An endoscope camera system might help for further diagnosis.
Long story short: In my opinion this engine is dead.
And I am always a bit sceptic, reading about John and Jane Doe´s talking about themselves how experienced they are and what they have managed to do already "successfully" on their vehicles.
According to what dear hubbie has done to the scooter so far and how Renee tried to do the failure analyzis, I would recommend to both of them that they should better leave this kind of "service and repair" to real world professionals and mechanics.
It´s cheaper for them and maybe safer for all of us. ;) :)
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To my understanding this scooter just suddenly died on the road. Having watched the video, I think there are two possibilities why the valves got so loose.
1. Somebody tried to adjust the valves after the scooter died on the road - not knowing what he / she was doing. This could lead to bent valves, therefore the valves stayed in open position when the engine was cranking. I think the enormous play on the valves is a definite indication that the valves would get bent if somebody tried to start that engine. The lady asked a question about TDC AFTER the valves were adjusted. To my mind this might be an indicatIon that the valves have been adjusted without proper knowledge about the correct procedure.
2. The camshaft sprocket could jump some teeth on the timing chain while the owner was riding on the road - but I think this is very unlikely.
Remember - this scooter “suddenly died on the road” - and according to the video the valves was that loose after the scooter “suddenly died on the road”.
Whatever the case, I think chances are very good that the valves are bent on this scooter - probably due to incorrect valve clearance adjustments by whoever. On most engines valves WILL bend if gaps are that big, and somebody try to start the engine.
I think the scooter probably died on the road due to a different reason - not due to abnormal valve clearances as shown in the video.
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Did we ever decide if this engine has any compression?! I agree with crossbolt.
Now that I've listened to it on my Dell, and not my cell phone - that first video sounds like a sewing machine turning over - not a 4 stroke gas engine.
Stig
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I think that we never got to the point of why there was no compression but on two occasions she found no compression.