KymcoForum.com
General => Roadcraft => Topic started by: john grinsel on June 05, 2020, 03:16:13 PM
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As long time fan of scooters, but with most of my miles on motorcycles---everyday rider since 1955, and long time rider outside of US (40 years).
1. Scooters are not really part of important transportation in US. Very few serious commuters on them.
2. Dealer network can be spotty.
3. With the scooters appealing to old/aging riders. Many not so skillfully ridden. My point here--IT TAKES MORE SKILL to skillfully/safely ride scooter than reg. motorcycle----think scooter has no footpegs to stand on,(think bumps), no tank to grip, some scooters have feet forward riding position (can hurt back)
I like the step over/thru mounting, but with no tank I find scooter without leg support, pushing around with feet---easier to tip over or get away from you. I think just about every scooter rider has had one go over at one time or another!!
AND auto transmissions do not give the exact control that reg. motorcycle clutch (skillfully used) in heavy/slow traffic situations.
Just some thoughts from still daily rider at 81. Most fun/enjoyment from scooters for me=long tours, used scooter to AK, east as far as Nova Scotia, been to 49 states with scooter----getting expensive, though. This year maybe going back to camping/sleeping along side bike---Slept in bushes in Geneva, on the bank of the Seine in Paris, in the nice Rest Areas of the Toll Roads in Japan----recent years in US, awakened by Police while taking daily nap along road.
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I've said it before, but it bears repetition, you're an inspiration to all us scootering "yougsters" John. I hope that if I get to 81 I will still be capable of swinging a leg over my scooter and getting out there for a few adventures.
You remind me of another biking T-shirt that says "You don't give up biking because you get old, you get old because you give up biking"! Just substitute scootering for biking.
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John I agree with your assessment. You do have to keep in mind one major difference between Europe and US is population density. Other factors have to be considered as well such as fuel cost insurance and taxes are more expensive in Europe compared to US making scooters more appealing as well.
Back to population density look at UK compared to Kansas both close area wise but not population wise. You will have a lot more scooter riders because you have a lot more people then add in above factors. Another thing is distances are greater to get somewhere unless your talking large cities.
Lots of different factors come into play. Home prices as well UK 231,855 L (287,500 dollars) compared to Kansas 153,853 dollars.
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Scooters are the work-horse of the world. I remember a picture of a man riding on a 250 cc scooter in some country with his two kids, wife, ducks in a cage, water jugs and so on, who was as happy as can be. Yet in USA people look angry and sad in their huge SUVs' as they drone on down the freeway.
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Scooters are the work-horse of the world. I remember a picture of a man riding on a 250 cc scooter in some country with his two kids, wife, ducks in a cage, water jugs and so on, who was as happy as can be. Yet in USA people look angry and sad in their huge SUVs' as they drone on down the freeway.
Not me just took a 1170 mile trip in two days to get two scooters. Was able to take my Collies and have Ice tea in the cupholder. 97 degree heat with high humidity and I was extremely comfortable in my 3/4 ton truck with the A/C blowing nice cold air. I guess it just depends on your perspective.
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The Scooter is still the work-horse of the world.
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But the long trip was not on scooter.
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But the long trip was not on scooter.
That was my point everything has its place, your not going to bring home two scooters with a scooter. I ride for recreation not out of necessity.
My cousin rode his motorcycle winter and summer in Canada no less very seldom using a 4 wheel vehicle.
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There is a greater mindset being defended. Entitlement.
For most people in the world the Scooter is the work-horse. In the USA we are privileged.
My hat is off in salute to all the scooter people of the world be they white, black, brown or yellow!
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There is a greater mindset being defended. Entitlement.
For most people in the world the Scooter is the work-horse. In the USA we are privileged.
My hat is off in salute to all the scooter people of the world be they white, black, brown or yellow!
Privileged my posterior, you better read your history book before making such a statement. We payed a very heavy price to defend Europe and rebuilt under the Marshall plan. I put in as many as 120 hours in a week to get what I have. Under capitalism we get to keep the rewards for hard work. Under other societies that is not always the case.
Why do you think immigrants want to come here, they can be rewarded for hard work.
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The mechanics of riding a scooter are different, but not at a disadvantage compared to riding a MC. The lack of a tank to straddle doesn’t impair the riding. Skillful use of counter-steering reduces the need for leaning, but as can be seen in scooter racing, leaning is very possible for scooter riders. The need for pegs isn’t a high requirement.
I rode for 17 hours from St. Johns, New Brunswick, CA to Philadelphia, Pa in one day
with no back problems (but one helluva of a sore ass).
A scooter is the Swiss Army knife of the 2-wheeled world. I love MCs, but they don’t give me what I need. A scooter does.
-Wolf
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I agree, counter weighting is highly effective on scoots. Especially in a case like mine where the rider is 20 pounds heavier than the bike. I don't think I could shift the combined bike plus rider CG by 12 inches on a 450-500 pound mc. I think it counters the bulk of the ground clearance problems.
I think scootering is the bareback riding of the 2 wheeled world. I do like the secure seating o a sport mc.
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No tank to hold on to on a scooter. Also the front wheel doesn't have the weight of a motorcycle which tends to let a scooter wash out . Knowing the limitations of a scooter it's a comfortable ride. I'm just not that aggressive of a scooter rider.
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3. With the scooters appealing to old/aging riders. Many not so skillfully ridden. My point here--IT TAKES MORE SKILL to skillfully/safely ride scooter than reg. motorcycle----think scooter has no footpegs to stand on,(think bumps), no tank to grip, some scooters have feet forward riding position (can hurt back)
While I agree with much of what you posted, I don't agree that it takes more skill to ride a scooter. I would argue the opposite. I'm not saying that a motorcycle doesn't have some advantages, such as being easier to stand up for bumps, but in most cases a scooter is easier to ride. Scooters tend to be lighter, have a lower CG, and for people not used to shifting the CVT makes riding much easier.
You mentioned a feet forward riding position. That is true of most Harleys and other cruisers as well.
Do you think a 8-900 pound cruiser or touring bike is easier to ride than a 280 pound scooter?
Now if you want to ride off road or really fast on the road then a motorcycle makes more sense.
I rode motorcycles for 30 years before getting my first scooter. Sure there are some differences that a rider needs to get used to but for me a scooter is just much easier to ride.
You mentioned many unskilled riders on scooter. I have to agree with you on that but there are also many unskilled riders on motorcycles. I have seen many crashes/fall overs due to a rider being on a motorcycle that is to big for their ability. Those riders would be safer on a lighter scooter although even a lighter scooter isn't really safe if the rider doesn't now how to ride.
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No tank to hold on to on a scooter. Also the front wheel doesn't have the weight of a motorcycle which tends to let a scooter wash out . Knowing the limitations of a scooter it's a comfortable ride. I'm just not that aggressive of a scooter rider.
The front to back weight distribution is approximately 40/60 on my Agility especially with the distance I sit back on the seat for knee clearance. My floor board storage box helps when loaded.
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Scooters tend to be less intimidating then motorcycles for new riders as well with no manual transmission clutch to deal with. Also the smaller scooters have less weight. Not so for maxi-scooters.
I bought motorcycles for friends to ride, not one person took a bike out. I actually think the scooters will be used when we get together.
Kind of funny in my youth I made fun of scooter riders now I'm one of them. I could care less what people think.
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I'm not sure if there's any evidence to support that a scooter's front wheel is easier to wash out. Due to their smaller wheel size they're actually better on the curves than a large wheeled MC, which tends to have better stability on the straightaways, and less on the turns.
Despite common misconceptions, scooters are just as dangerous as motorcycles, but too many times it's because of operator error, than the bike's overall design. I don't agree with the first assessment in the description below as I've never felt any less stability on a scooter compared to a MC, nor do I agree that they are not true commuter bikes as the author seems to only think of 50cc scooters as the only kind out there.
https://www.motorcyclelegalfoundation.com/are-scooters-safe/ (https://www.motorcyclelegalfoundation.com/are-scooters-safe/)
Scooters are considered as dangerous as riding a MC.
Smaller Wheels – Scooters typically have smaller wheels than a motorcycle. They will be less stable on the road compared to a motorcycle primarily due to the smaller wheels giving less gyroscopic effect (hence the need to be upright). They will also be more susceptible to react to the small hazards in the road, such as potholes, debris, and bumps.
Less Visibility – It’s difficult to see motorcycles in traffic. A scooter, which is smaller than a typical motorcycle, will be even more difficult to see, putting you in more danger when you’re surrounded by heavy traffic, as other motorists may not recognize a scooter and rider in their path on the road.
Lack of Gear – Scooters are not widely seen as a true commuter vehicle, so riders tend not to wear the proper safety gear while riding compared to a normal motorcyclist. They opt to ride without a helmet, proper jacket, pants, or even good protective footwear. If you’ve been on vacation to a resort or beach, you may have seen the scooter rentals available. They don’t typically ask for a motorcycle license or if you brought proper safety equipment. Therefore, you’re more at risk sans protective gear on a scooter than being on a motorcycle with ATGATT.
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I've road both and know how my motorcycle reacts to sand on a cornor as well as how my scooter reacts to sand on a cornor. It's a a mater of physics there is less weight on the front of a scooter, most of the weight engine and rider is over the rear wheel. On a motorcycle the engine is located closer to the front of the wheel. My personal experience yours may differ.
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Without question I feel safer riding a scooter. It may be due to experience and familiarity, w twice as many miles ridden (12,000 scoot vs 6,000 m/c). The lighter weight, simpler braking, and cvt make scooters easier to handle and more fool proof. Easier to make a mistake shifting or braking on a m/c. Agree scooters corner better, while m/c is more stable on straights, especially at higher speeds.
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Simply not true, Physics overrule opinion. The closer you get to front and back weight being equal the better the handling will be regardless if it's a car motorcycle or scooter. The new mid-engine corvette will out handle the front engine corvette because it has better weight balance. The same is true whether it's a scooter or motorcycle the one with neutral weight balance will handle the best if weight of the machine is the same. A scooter is often more agile because of its lighter weight then a motorcycle. My Lambretta uno 150 is light weight and very nimble around town compared to my maxi-scooter because it weighs so much less and smaller dimensions.
If your scooter with you sitting on it weighs the same on the front tire as it does on the rear tire that would be neutral weight balance. In most cases a motorcycle is closer to neutral weight balance with a rider. A motorcycle might not be as agile because of heavier weight/larger dimensions.
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I would venture to say that all sport oriented motorcycles can out corner a scoot with equivalent talent on both bikes. The increased weight does not affect traction as it is the vector between gravity and friction which on a track can exceed 1/1 with good tires. The extra weight can actually be of benefit as it stabilizes the bike and becomes more resistant to minor road surface defects and minimal body movements.
In general a scooter will have a tighter turn radius at the steering stop and is definitely more nimble as KK stated.
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The limitation on cornering speed of a scooter will normally have nothing to do with weight or weight distribution. The limiting factor is typically cornering clearance. Lean most scooters very far and hard parts will start to drag. Lean further and you will lever one or both of the tires off the ground and go sliding. Most cruiser or touring style motorcycles have the same problem.
I currently own two scooters and two motorcycles. The motorcycles have much more cornering clearance and are much faster on a twisty road. My motorcycles also have much better suspensions.
But, my scooters are much easier to ride and are much more practical. Depending on the ride they can also be much more fun.
Weight? My KLX250 is about 25 pounds heavier than my Like 150i.
My Versys 650 weighs about the same as my Majesty 400. The Majesty has much lighter steering but the Versys is way faster. The Versys has way more power, better brakes and better suspension. Despite all this I ride my Majesty more than the Versys.
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Nicely put Klav. I'd agree totally and as you effectively say it's horses for courses. There are occasions when the scooter is just right and others where the bike is a much better fit. Long may it remain so.
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The limitation on cornering speed of a scooter will normally have nothing to do with weight or weight distribution. The limiting factor is typically cornering clearance. Lean most scooters very far and hard parts will start to drag. Lean further and you will lever one or both of the tires off the ground and go sliding. Most cruiser or touring style motorcycles have the same problem.
I currently own two scooters and two motorcycles. The motorcycles have much more cornering clearance and are much faster on a twisty road. My motorcycles also have much better suspensions.
But, my scooters are much easier to ride and are much more practical. Depending on the ride they can also be much more fun.
Weight? My KLX250 is about 25 pounds heavier than my Like 150i.
My Versys 650 weighs about the same as my Majesty 400. The Majesty has much lighter steering but the Versys is way faster. The Versys has way more power, better brakes and better suspension. Despite all this I ride my Majesty more than the Versys.
Since you added the word normally to your post I would tend to agree with you. I could and be willing to prove the front tire will wash out on a scooter before a motorcycle. If you take your scooter on a sand covered asphalt road and I take my Versys 650 or BMW 650 GS I would be willing to bet you loose traction before I. This is one of the first things I noticed when going from a motorcycle to a scooter on a loose road surface.
I like the scooters better for long trips then my dual sports. The upright position, soft suspension and plush seat just offers more comfort. Add the faring and windscreen just add to the overall comfort. Then add all the storage on a scooter, between the legs, under the seat, the case on the back makes this thing into a pack mule for grocery store runs. I don't carry a passenger but the seat looks like the scooter would be more accommodating as well.
My Xciting's ride more like a cruiser motorcycle then a sport bike. The Scarver (street carver) cornors like it's on rails. Ironically the BMW Rotex is actually built by Kymco.
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I think a scooter is a lot less intimidating for a new rider as well. The center of gravity is a lot lower and a CVT is easier for a new rider to master. My friends (who haven't rode in years, decades) are not intimidated by the small scooter 125-150 size and will actually ride them.