KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Super 8 => Topic started by: perererery on June 04, 2020, 09:06:06 PM
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Just wondering the best torque to tighten the variator nut?
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The manual doesn't specify what torque to use, however, 35-40 ft pounds has worked for many. because the thread is opposite shaft rotation you only need it tight enough to prevent vibration loosening. With a dot of thread locker getting it "good and tight" is the general consensus. I know, it can be frustrating for mechanical perfectionists.
P.S. Welcome to the forum.
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Thanks I'll try, just want to see as i changed my removed the nut and my speed has changed from 35 mph to around 32 mph so perhaps its screwed on to tightly
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The nut is torqued onto a shoulder which means the torque will not effect resistance to the shaft rotating. What did you change in the variator?
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Changed the rollers but realised they didn't really make a difference so i put the stock ones back in, everything was put back originally.
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Great. Then just tighten the nut and you should be fine. It only takes a little resistance to cause minor speed loss. A few hundred km should wear everything back together and you should get the old speed back.
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been driving a while now with this problem, perhaps i should buy a torque wrench and manually do it?
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been driving a while now with this problem, perhaps i should buy a torque wrench and manually do it?
The nut is not responsible for your loss of 3mph....many things could cause that - but not the nut, unless it has come loose.
Have you been back in to check things after you noticed the loss of top speed?
Stig
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How many miles are on your rollers? Did you install them with the flat spots(if any) in the same orientation that they were? I would tend to think the loss is in the transmission system as that is the area of highest energy loss due to friction which equals heat. Because power to speed is squared, it takes very little to drop 3mph. Just relaxing an elbow from against my side changes my top speed by 4mph.
In essence, practically any mechanical inefficiency can cause your amount of loss.
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The nut is not responsible for your loss of 3mph....many things could cause that - but not the nut, unless it has come loose.
Have you been back in to check things after you noticed the loss of top speed?
Stig
It has happened over time slowly so didn't properly notice until recently, a garage told me some bikes just come out of the factory slower but i dont believe this as it should be faster than this, the bike has also had an ecu re map meaning no restrictions.
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How many miles are on your rollers? Did you install them with the flat spots(if any) in the same orientation that they were? I would tend to think the loss is in the transmission system as that is the area of highest energy loss due to friction which equals heat. Because power to speed is squared, it takes very little to drop 3mph. Just relaxing an elbow from against my side changes my top speed by 4mph.
In essence, practically any mechanical inefficiency can cause your amount of loss.
the rollers have around 3500 miles on them (never changed them long term) could be a mechanical issue but my dealer has told me there is nothing wrong with the bike, there is also nothing that could be weighing it down etc so im unsure to my loss in speed?
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The nut is not responsible for your loss of 3mph....many things could cause that - but not the nut, unless it has come loose.
Have you been back in to check things after you noticed the loss of top speed?
Stig
To my experience roller condition definitely contributes to a power loss.
My Agility started loosing power uphill, and I recently opened the variator to check the rollers. I found some dust inside, and two rollers had light flat spots.
Not having new rollers handy, I took a chance for the time being, and applied a thin layer of CV joint grease on the rollers and just put it back in place. Since I did this the power loss uphill is completely gone, and the scooter reach the top of the hill at higher engine RPM’s.
I guess the grease at the inside of the variator will gather dust, and could cause other problems. But for the time being I think I’ve learned that a combination of dirt at the inside of a variator, and slightly worn rollers can cause a loss of power in general.
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Agreed. I went with slider weights and I silicone dry lube mine to keep the lubricant from collecting dust.
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Agreed. I went with slider weights and I silicone dry lube mine to keep the lubricant from collecting dust.
Thanks for mentioning the silicone dry lube.
It could be my imagination but since I applied the CV joint grease I am quite convinced my Agility has never performed like this before. I am quite willing to clean the Variator out every 2000km and apply clean CV joint grease, but the grease might cause problems even before I reach 2000km.
Depending on possible problems caused by the crease I think I wil never run the Variator without applying grease or silicone dy lube on the rollers in future. i think apart from a power gain, some lubrication on the rollers can even extend the lifespan of the rollers.
For the time being the CV joint grease at my Agility’s variator has cancelled the need to install new rollers anyway.
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Right thanks ill try do this.
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i might replace the rollers instead do you have any recommendations for what to get? looking for speed preferably.
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Many advise adding NO lubricants, dry or otherwise, to the weights or in the roller weights carrier. Clean all parts and assemble.
Dr Pulley says the same when using their sliders. No lube.
Stig
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Ok ill clean my variator out when i next get chance. If that doesnt work should i replace any parts?
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I would recommend Dr. Pulley sliders. They aren't the cheapest but most will agree they are among the best.
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I would recommend Dr. Pulley sliders. They aren't the cheapest but most will agree they are among the best.
Is their a certain weight i should go for?
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Typically the same weight used for the rollers. With the sliders they tend to act like a lighter weight by about .5 oz on my bike. That means you could go with a weight half an oz more to have the same shift rpm.
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Agreed. I went with slider weights and I silicone dry lube mine to keep the lubricant from collecting dust.
TBR125 How many miles since you started using silicone dry lube ? Did you experience any problems since you started using dry lube ?
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It was just an experiment. I have run 8,000km since then and I am sure it is gone now. It was good while it was on and didn't collect dust. The ultimate is Teflon coated parts such as some performance variators use. I intend to experiment with the durability of P.T.F.E. on the drive train components in the near future when I replace the variator. Now that I have other transportation this bike will be for science. And fun riding.
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It was just an experiment. I have run 8,000km since then and I am sure it is gone now. It was good while it was on and didn't collect dust. The ultimate is Teflon coated parts such as some performance variators use. I intend to experiment with the durability of P.T.F.E. on the drive train components in the near future when I replace the variator. Now that I have other transportation this bike will be for science. And fun riding.
Thanks, while it did not cause problems within 8000km I can not think of any reason why it should not be used.
I actually applied a very thin layer of grease on the rollers because I was worried about getting grease on the belt. The scooter covered only 260km since the application and no problems yet. My intention is to open the variator during the next engine oil change within the next 1000km, or maybe sooner if any problems occur.
Anyway, I did a Google search on the subject and I noticed some scooters came with greased roller from the factury, so I am not too worried.
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Grease could promote flats on rollers if they slide instead of rolling. For sliders it could extend their life span if it decreases wear. The smoothest transmission I have felt was a variator with custom Teflon sliders.
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Typically the same weight used for the rollers. With the sliders they tend to act like a lighter weight by about .5 oz on my bike. That means you could go with a weight half an oz more to have the same shift rpm.
Slider weights....I was informed years ago by a couple of old hand riders in the Philippines that a 13gm Dr P. slider will act like a 14gm roller weight.
Stig
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Do variator slides make a difference as well, i have 2 different types of slides on and they both fit but could this be making any type of difference?
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Thank you Stig. I did get that effect reversed. I apologize.
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Do variator slides make a difference as well, i have 2 different types of slides on and they both fit but could this be making any type of difference?
Are you saying that of the slides/rollers currently installed, they are not all the same?
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rollers are all the same, the slides are different (2 kymco stock and 1 naruku)
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What do you mean by slides? I am not aware of stock Kymco slider weights.
Frictional differences and even minor weight differences in the scale of single grains will negatively effect the overall variator performance. All slides or rollers must be the same brand and model, preferably the same manufacture batch, for optimal performance with the given component quality.
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I have all stock kymco rollers and by slides i mean the small plastic pieces that are put onto cover of the variator, 2 are stock kymco ones and as i last assembled it i lost one of them, this is when i had to settle for a naruku one which i had spare. Do you think this could be making a difference to speed/performance?
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Grease could promote flats on rollers if they slide instead of rolling. For sliders it could extend their life span if it decreases wear. The smoothest transmission I have felt was a variator with custom Teflon sliders.
I think there is a huge misunderstanding about rollers. To my mind the only reason why rollers are being called “rollers”, is because they are round. In fact - I am quite convinced rollers behave just like sliders under riding conditions.
Once the engine starts and the rollers get flung outwards, the rollers actually get “pinched” between the two separate surfaces at the inside of the variator - and the friction against the TWO sides of the variator makes it almost impossible for the rollers to roll forward.
In other words - if the rollers was just in contact with one surface at the inside of the variator, it would roll outwards under acceleration. In reality the second contact surface cancels the roller’s ability to roll forward - specially under acceleration the rollers will tend to slide forward instead of rolling forward.
In short - I think the usual flat spots on older rollers is proof of what actually happens to rollers under riding conditions. It usually slides forward, specially under stress - instead of rolling forward.
I think the only reasons why grease will cause more wear on rollers are:
1. When a thick (more sticky) get used. (This type of grease might restrict the rollers to roll under all conditions).
2. When a thinner grease - like CV joint grease becomes like a grinding paste due to dust.
My intention is to stick to the grease for the time being, and see what happens within the next 1000 km.
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I have all stock kymco rollers and by slides i mean the small plastic pieces that are put onto cover of the variator, 2 are stock kymco ones and as i last assembled it i lost one of them, this is when i had to settle for a naruku one which i had spare. Do you think this could be making a difference to speed/performance?
Ah! I see. The only issue with the difference is minuscule weight balance. With the standard imbalances in a variator that should have no measurable effect. When we refer to sliders we usually mean the slider weights as apposed to roller weights.
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ahh ok do you think its worth investing in dr pulley sliders as they are expensive and i want them to make a significant difference.
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The dr. pulleys are designed in a shape that allows max expansion and closing of the pulley sheaves. They also smooth the dead spot that some variators have in the mid-range power. Having the optimal weight for the characteristics you want may have more of an effect than dropping in sliders. I would only buy sliders once you have ridden with a weight you like and want to keep.
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I think there is a huge misunderstanding about rollers. To my mind the only reason why rollers are being called “rollers”, is because they are round. In fact - I am quite convinced rollers behave just like sliders under riding conditions.
Once the engine starts and the rollers get flung outwards, the rollers actually get “pinched” between the two separate surfaces at the inside of the variator - and the friction against the TWO sides of the variator makes it almost impossible for the rollers to roll forward.
In other words - if the rollers was just in contact with one surface at the inside of the variator, it would roll outwards under acceleration. In reality the second contact surface cancels the roller’s ability to roll forward - specially under acceleration the rollers will tend to slide forward instead of rolling forward.
In short - I think the usual flat spots on older rollers is proof of what actually happens to rollers under riding conditions. It usually slides forward, specially under stress - instead of rolling forward.
I think the only reasons why grease will cause more wear on rollers are:
1. When a thick (more sticky) get used. (This type of grease might restrict the rollers to roll under all conditions).
2. When a thinner grease - like CV joint grease becomes like a grinding paste due to dust.
My intention is to stick to the grease for the time being, and see what happens within the next 1000 km.
See all that black dust throughout all of the CVT parts when you remove a belt cover?
Grease anywhere but the designated lubricant areas will gather that dust and make a pudding of it.
Dry lube can be thrown around and end up in unwanted places...like the belt.
I don't pretend to be an expert - but I do listen closely when scooter riders (and racers) in the far east speak....
I've never opened a (modern) scooter and found any trace of lubricant in a factory set-up roller weight carrier.
Stig
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The dr. pulleys are designed in a shape that allows max expansion and closing of the pulley sheaves. They also smooth the dead spot that some variators have in the mid-range power. Having the optimal weight for the characteristics you want may have more of an effect than dropping in sliders. I would only buy sliders once you have ridden with a weight you like and want to keep.
I am happy with the weight of my rollers right now, if i buy the sliders will i see a speed increase?
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Probably an acceleration increase and if your belt is worn the sliders will push it all the way out for fastest gearing. The primary difference is lifespan of the weights and transition smoothness.
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oh preferably looking for a mod for a small speed increase really.
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Have you done any engine mods such as air filter or exhaust? Not that everyone needs to, just curious.
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This hasn't really been possible as i have a newer fuel injected bike, my dealer did electronically de restrict it and this is the only mod i have done.
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Definitely don't start chop modding if it is still under warranty. Because it won't be anymore.
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Looking to keep the bike a long time, it's reliable and would honestly want to add some modifications, any reccomendations?
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May be obvious but quality regular maintenance and prevention is the most crucial for a long life. Oem systems have done a good job of finding the intersection of the roads between reliability and power. If you pull toward the route of power, reliability goes down, and often for quite marginal gains.
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See all that black dust throughout all of the CVT parts when you remove a belt cover?
Grease anywhere but the designated lubricant areas will gather that dust and make a pudding of it.
Dry lube can be thrown around and end up in unwanted places...like the belt.
I don't pretend to be an expert - but I do listen closely when scooter riders (and racers) in the far east speak....
I've never opened a (modern) scooter and found any trace of lubricant in a factory set-up roller weight carrier.
Stig
Thanks, fortunately I’ve opened the variator at least three times and I have a fairly good idea how much belt dust to expect after 1000 to 2000km - it shouldn't be that much.
Like I mentioned before - my intention is to remove the old grease and dirt at the inside of the variator during every 2000km service.
Since my previous post I did Google search and it looks like some people still prefer lubricating rollers with grease. So for the time being I’m not too worried. It looks like the “secret” is just not to use too much grease, and to use the “correct” grease. Only time will tell whether I will keep on using grease in future.
P.S. I am not worried about a mixture of dust and dirt at the inside of the CVT cover - that’s easy to remove.
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oh preferably looking for a mod for a small speed increase really.
I installed Dr. Pulley sliders when I replaced the original rollers in my Like 200i. I went with 13gr sliders to replace the 14gr rollers and not only got better acceleration from the lighter weight but also gained about 2mph increase in speed due to the fact that sliders ride higher in the variator at full speed.