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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: scooterfan on May 31, 2020, 10:32:01 AM
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I recently started thinking of upgrading to a scooter with 150 or 160 something cc , just for a little extra power in future - but I saw a comment somewhere at the forum which got me puzzled. I couldn’t find the comment now, but to my understanding the comment indicated that a scooter with 125cc engine managed to keep up with scooters with slightly bigger engines during a road trip.
Which made me wonder how this could be possible ? Does extra weight on scooters (heavier scooter) with slightly bigger engines cancel the little extra power generated by the bigger engines ?
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Wow. How long have you got?
All other things being equal, the bigger the engine, the greater the power (BHP) and the faster it goes. But... things are rarely equal so other factors need to be borne in mind I.e. the weight of the scooter, the weight* of the rider, age of engine design, 2 or 4 stroke, skill of the rider etc etc.
Just because a 125 keeps pace with a 300 scooter on the road does not mean they’d stay together for 5 laps of a race circuit!
* I’m a bit of a bloater so I traded up from a 125 to a 300 to give the engine an easier time on the hills and when 2 up.
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Owning several displacement scooters my 150 is peppy around town but county roads you have to (give it all she got) to hit 55-60 mph. The 250 does good in town but heavier to manage. On the county roads no problem running 65 but your getting close to red line ( will run 80 mph). The 500's are pigs around town but ride nice on the highway and 65 mph is substantially lower RPM. If I'm doing a errand around town I take the 150's, out of town I take one of the maxi scoots . Ironically I rode someone else's 50cc kymco and was very surprised how quick it got to 25 mph but not good for much more.
It's a tradeoff between size and weight.
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I have been looking at getting a 150-160cc. Coupled with the higher gearing and my increased fuel and air, I should be able to keep up with the 200's on rides.
My current jetting (to match air intake) is larger than some 150s. Does that mean my current displacement is equivalent to a 150?. The speeds I am running seem higher than a bunch of the 125 specs I have heard.
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I have been looking at getting a 150-160cc. Coupled with the higher gearing and my increased fuel and air, I should be able to keep up with the 200's on rides.
My current jetting (to match air intake) is larger than some 150s. Does that mean my current displacement is equivalent to a 150?. The speeds I am running seem higher than a bunch of the 125 specs I have heard.
The only way to artificially increase more displacement is turbocharger or supercharger which is not practical on a scooter. You can implement several performance enhancements but does nothing to increase engine displacement.
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To clarify, are you saying increased full and air volume in a cylinder does not necessarily equal greater displacement?
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Having owned/ridden 125/150/250 and up to 600 scooters-----125 ridden right can be ok---just do not be afraid of running full throttle (had 125 Daelm in Korea--new--60-65 mph top--scooters can not go on Freeways there) had 2 stroke 150 Vespa in Europe, again wide open fine, 150 Vespa better than 200 in daily use.
But in real life I consider 250cc min. at least in US to keep from getting run over----had 4 new Helix 250's, 175,000 miles with them. and some where 250 Reflex thrown in. So once again prefer 250cc for serious use.
Had 2 new Suzuki Burgman 400's----heavy/performance fine.
Also 2 new Honda SilverWing 600's----over 90,000 miles with them expensive/heavy/complicated
I would say 125 performance fine,, 150 not much difference----rider skill plays a part
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:'(
Wow. How long have you got?
Just because a 125 keeps pace with a 300 scooter on the road does not mean they’d stay together for 5 laps of a race circuit!
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You have misread the topic. My question is all about 125cc, 150cc, and 164 or 16(7 ?)cc scooters - nothing bigger.
P.S. To clarify - I was thinking of “upgrading” to a 150cc scooter in future, but to my understanding even an upgrade to a 164 cc scooter might not be worth the money - I could just stick to the 125cc without missing a real power difference.
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:'(
You have misread the topic. My question is all about 125cc, 150cc, and 164 or 16(7 ?)cc scooters - nothing bigger.
I think when we get outside the U.S. people forget how license classes are broken up... and how expensive fuel is. My take on your question:
Generally, more displacement equals more horsepower. BUT, add in fuel injection and some scooters punch above their weight. Case in point is the Yamaha Smax. That 155cc engine puts out 15 HP! As far as I can tell, nothing stock in that class tops it (of course, I dont know every scooter offered, so I could just be speaking from ignorance). But when the average scooter in this class is running between 10 and 12 HP, 15HP is a significant boost. Claimed top speed is 80mph, which is about the top speed of most 250cc carburetor engines. So I don't know how this might weigh into your answer, but (clearly) not all 150cc are created equal!
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I think when we get outside the U.S. people forget how license classes are broken up... and how expensive fuel is. My take on your question:
Generally, more displacement equals more horsepower. BUT, add in fuel injection and some scooters punch above their weight. Case in point is the Yamaha Smax. That 155cc engine puts out 15 HP! As far as I can tell, nothing stock in that class tops it (of course, I dont know every scooter offered, so I could just be speaking from ignorance). But when the average scooter in this class is running between 10 and 12 HP, 15HP is a significant boost. Claimed top speed is 80mph, which is about the top speed of most 250cc carburetor engines. So I don't know how this might weigh into your answer, but (clearly) not all 150cc are created equal!
Thanks. I was thinking about Taiwanese scooters - like Kymco or Sym (Lance) only.
Yamaha actually started selling Kymco products in our country - but prices are quite high compared to Sym, which is basically the same quality.
Local Yamaha prices are very high, compared to Kymco or Sym.
P.S. I prefer carburetor models.
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To clarify, are you saying increased full and air volume in a cylinder does not necessarily equal greater displacement?
Displacement is a combination of bore and stroke to determine cylinder volume. Performance mods might make the engine run more efficient but do nothing to increase cylinder volume.
You will always be limited by the amount of air the engine can take in at atmospheric pressure, the only way around this is by turbocharger or supercharger that raises atmospheric pressure.
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Thanks. I was thinking about Taiwanese scooters - like Kymco or Sym (Lance) only.
Yamaha actually started selling Kymco products in our country - but prices are quite high compared to Sym, which is basically the same quality.
Local Yamaha prices are very high, compared to Kymco or Sym.
P.S. I prefer carburetor models.
Do you have a dealer that would let you take a 150 for a test ride? Then you'll know if it's worth the difference for yourself.
I've noticed some very good prices on SYM scooters and like the larger wheels. Noticed a 200 SYM for $1995. advertised by a Kansas City dealer. Like the looks as well. One of my Scooters is a Lambretta uno 150. This is the same bike as a Adly 150 and made by Herchee a Taiwanese manufacturer. It seems well made as well.
You could also look at the spec sheet to see if the 150 has a meaningful increase in HP over your 125. My Yamaha 125 Zuma was a little over 12 hp and ran just as strong as my current Kymco and Lambretta 150.
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I understand now, thanks.
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:'(
You have misread the topic. My question is all about 125cc, 150cc, and 164 or 16(7 ?)cc scooters - nothing bigger.
P.S. To clarify - I was thinking of “upgrading” to a 150cc scooter in future, but to my understanding even an upgrade to a 164 cc scooter might not be worth the money - I could just stick to the 125cc without missing a real power difference.
My mistake! Upgrade from 125 to 150/160? Don’t bother would be my advice. :)
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Do you have a dealer that would let you take a 150 for a test ride? Then you'll know if it's worth the difference for yourself.
I've noticed some very good prices on SYM scooters and like the larger wheels. Noticed a 200 SYM for $1995. advertised by a Kansas City dealer. Like the looks as well. One of my Scooters is a Lambretta uno 150. This is the same bike as a Adly 150 and made by Herchee a Taiwanese manufacturer. It seems well made as well.
You could also look at the spec sheet to see if the 150 has a meaningful increase in HP over your 125. My Yamaha 125 Zuma was a little over 12 hp and ran just as strong as my current Kymco and Lambretta 150.
I am not sure about 150cc scooters in our area, but I just compared Agility 125 and Bet & Win 150 specs.
The Bet & Win 150 engine generates 2.9 Hp more than the Agility 125 engine - but the weight of a Bet & Win 150 scooter is 72 lb (24%) MORE than the weight of an Agility 125 scooter.
Which makes me think the Bet & Win 150’s performance will not cause a real improvement on the Agility 125’s performance.
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It seems that in the 125-160ish range two things make a big difference. The number of valves and water or air cooling. With water cooling the compression ratio can be raised to produce more power without hurting long term reliability. The alternative is a multi-valve head which gives better breathing at higher rpms. A good case in point is the 163cc 2valve Kymco Like 200i which makes 11.3 bhp while the new 4valve Like 150i produces 13.7bhp. Some of the cheaper scooters from mainland China only produce 8-9bhp from 150ccs.
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It looks like the agility 125 produces 9.25 hp and 6.7 ft lbs torque. My 2006 People 150 produces 10.19 hp and 8.1 ft lbs of torque.
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SYM used to sell a large wheel scooter here a few years ago The HD 125 with liquid cooling and 4 valves and 12.5bhp.
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Is there a new 150-ish scooter in your country which is still carbed?
Just curious.
Stig
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Is there a new 150-ish scooter in your country which is still carbed?
Just curious.
Stig
Yes, quite a few. Sym sells the 150cc Fiddle 2 with 12 inch wheels, and 150 cc Symphony models with 16 inch wheels. There are a few cheaper 150cc models from China as well.
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Yes, quite a few. Sym sells the 150cc Fiddle 2 with 12 inch wheels, and 150 cc Symphony models with 16 inch wheels. There are a few cheaper 150cc models from China as well.
I figured the Chinese would still be selling carbed scooters, didn't think SYM would be selling a carbed 150 in 2020!
Stig
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I figured the Chinese would still be selling carbed scooters, didn't think SYM would be selling a carbed 150 in 2020!
Stig
The Kymco Super 8 150 is still carbureted and air cooled as well. 10.46 hp and 7.8 ft lbs torque for 2020 $ 2295.
The Like 150i is 13.5 hp 8.7 ft lbs and is air cooled and fuel injected for 2020 $2999.
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The only way to artificially increase more displacement is turbocharger or supercharger which is not practical on a scooter. You can implement several performance enhancements but does nothing to increase engine displacement.
I've never seen one but in around 2003 we had the Peugeot Jet Force Compressor (125) in the UK that was supercharged, which is insane :D
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I've never seen one but in around 2003 we had the Peugeot Jet Force Compressor (125) in the UK that was supercharged, which is insane :D
Actually it works well but it's a lot more economical for mfg to just increase displacement on scooters for more power. You need water cooled and a intercooler for a turbo or supercharger to work well because of the heat generated, you run out of room quickly on a scooter or bike.
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It looks like the agility 125 produces 9.25 hp and 6.7 ft lbs torque. My 2006 People 150 produces 10.19 hp and 8.1 ft lbs of torque.
And only about 6.5 of that reaches the rear wheel. That's why a 125 5 speed manual bike will smoke my scoot in speed and mpg.
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And only about 6.5 of that reaches the rear wheel. That's why a 125 5 speed manual bike will smoke my scoot in speed and mpg.
There are a few scooters that have a manual transmission but most people want the convenience of a CVT which in nature is more inefficient.
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I grew up with 150cc under-bone quickshift motorcycles. I wish they were made in the US. With 20 inch wheels they were great for the rough roads.
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It was a 150 honda wave nock-off.
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I've never seen one but in around 2003 we had the Peugeot Jet Force Compressor (125) in the UK that was supercharged, which is insane :D
Was a nice looking scooter too!
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Even the most efficient modern scooters can't keep up with the 140mpg my 39-year-old Honda C70 routinely pulls. It's that direct chain drive that makes the difference.
There are rumours of the new C125 Cub cracking 200mpg from time to time :O
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Mis-read that as 140 mph to begin with!...
:D
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Everything else being equal, a 150 should be faster than a 125 but everything else is seldom equal. How the engine is tuned as well as gearing make a big difference. My Like 150i makes 13.5 HP vs 10.3 for my old Super 8 yet top speed seems to be about the same. The Like does accelerate a bit faster. My Yamaha Smax at 155cc was significantly faster than either Kymco. The engine was liquid cooled and just tuned for more power. Typically an Air cooled 2 valve engine makes less power than a 4 valve motor or a liquid cooled motor.
Another factor is the rider. On twisty roads I have run away from motorcycles with over 1000cc on my small scooters.
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Myself I like liquid cooling and FI and the HP they bring. But everything is a tradeoff you get more weight and a little more complexity over air cooled. I see different machines for different purposes. 125-150cc for around town and speeds 45 and under. 250cc and up more suited for secondary paved highways. With the larger machines capable of main highway travel but at a cost of increased weight. But you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
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Have any of you upgraded a gy6 head to a four valve unit? I am curious of the actual difference all else remaining the same. Also, any thoughts on effect of increasing compression? minor increase.
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Have any of you upgraded a gy6 head to a four valve unit? I am curious of the actual difference all else remaining the same. Also, any thoughts on effect of increasing compression? minor increase.
My Super 8 had a GY6 with 2 valves and a carb. My Like 150i has basically the same motor but with 4 valves and FI. The difference is less than I expected.
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Probably not worth the high cost then. It quickly adds up to the cost of a non running Honda CB 750(my dream project bike).
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Since my initial post the rollers at my Agility’s variator has been greased very slightly, and a new clutch has been installed on the same day. Since the grease on the rollers and new clutch I immedialy noticed a definite improvement on engine power when on dayly rides in our area. The engine does not loose power or RPM’s when I ride uphill any longer, and engine RPM’s are higher when I reach the top of the hills these days.
This difference in general performance made me realize that there is no need for an upgrade any longer - the current performance suits me perfectly. In fact - I now simply loves the Agility.
I now started wondering what is actually causing this power difference - the grease on the rollers, the new clutch, the new big spring on the new Chinese clutch kit, the new clutch itself, or a combination of all mentoned changes. I initially though that the grease on the rollers is causing the difference, but then realized the new clutch kit could play a role as well.
Whatever the reason - if the grease on the rollers does not create problems in the near future, I think by pure fluke, and in an unexpected way I managed to find a way to create more power from my Agilty’s engine.
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Good chance grease would effect the shift rpm and increase variator response improving ride experience, however, how would greasing the rollers increase power at the wheel if that is what you are saying? I can't figure what power it could make available.
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Good chance grease would effect the shift rpm and increase variator response improving ride experience, however, how would greasing the rollers increase power at the wheel if that is what you are saying? I can't figure what power it could make available.
I think maybe a combination of a better roller / variator response, and maybe a slight different clutch spring is causing the higher engine RPM’s during certain stages when I ride uphill. Therefore maybe a slight different “gear ratio” at higher RPM’s.
Maybe I should replace the new big clutch spring with the original clutch spring to see if it makes any difference.