KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: roxyflash on February 08, 2020, 04:48:00 AM
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For what ever reason if I start scooter it cranks it don’t start but crack the throttle fires right up is there a adjustment on the throttle body that needs adjusting
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Maybe a dirty or malfunctioning throttle body or throttle position sensor? The ECU and throttle body should take care of that mix, you shouldn't have to input anything via the throttle
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Have tried initializing yet?
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Every EFI controlled engine/vehicle manual seems to say >> - "do NOT touch the throttle when starting". ("unless very, very, very cold temps")
so this seems strange.
Miles, age, crashes, with this scooter??
Stig
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2700 miles 40 degrees outside temp does the same if in the summer temps did the initiation same thing I’m going to try open the throttle at throttle body next
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Did you try initializing yet?
I have had two of these and they both started on the second revolution, hot, cold, very hot, very cold. The ONLY time there was a variation was just before the battery died. I was able to start it by "cracking the throttle" once or twice. With 2700 miles the battery SHOULD be good but you never know what kind of junk battery the dealer stuck in there because he robbed the original battery. Initializing requires no tools and at least rules out one possible cause.
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New battery with moose charger on it while trying to start .Doesnt matter if the charger is on or off acts same way.Right now I have a over size battery in it new not a voltage issue.I have seen some other 300 videos of tachometer mine seems to run right at 1500 rpm
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RPM should be 1600 +/- 100 rpm according to service manual (take with a grain of salt). Should not be the battery in your case! Slap your voltmeter on it while cranking to see what it is. Anything less than 10.5 WHILE CRANKING and it won't fire. Could be a bad connection...
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If it’s a voltage issue wouldn’t fire at all.Cracking the throttle makes it start acts like there’s not enough air to fire I read the the manual says the throttle body is factory set.There has to be a base setting maybe someone knows otherwiise next warm day I’m going to try adjusting it for more rpms
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The throttle is set at the factory for throttle closed adjustment and should remain as set.
Initializing is a handlebar control procedure TO ENSURE the TPS and ISC are "coordinated" in the ECU. [TPS = Throttle Position Sensor. ISC = Idle Speed Control. ECU = Engine Control Unit.]
The engine will spin over with the starter at voltages as low as 9.5 volts but the ECU will not fire the spark plug.
My point is that this engine should start and idle properly with no more than two revolutions of the crank. Any more than that or needing to "crack" the throttle indicates there is something wrong and it will get worse before it gets better.
All you need to do is ask, "OK, what should I do first?"
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I did the reset same idle speed I was reading on page 42 I believe about a canister evap issue and control valve .I tried to look tru the manual I downloaded but see nothing about it.After reading the post it seems my bike has same issue there posting about.Does 2012 downtown use this canister?
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Try opening (and leaving open) the gas cap and starting. I recommend you ignore the evap canister for the time being.
Please describe the INITIALIZE sequence. Is that what you mean by "reset?"
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Hold throttle wide open turn key on for 8 seconds release.I already vented the fuel cap .
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OK, good! We are on the same page. Do you have a multimeter?
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Yes I have several flukes
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Several Flukes? You are way ahead of me! Good, then. Please take one of the excellent meters and hook to measure voltage while cranking to start. Convenient access would be the outlet in that left-hand glove box. By the way, do you happen to get the battery symbol while cranking? The best idea would be the volts to the ECU while cranking....
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Ok battery light does not come on .I won’t be able to test till this weekend coming up .
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Ok battery light does not come on .I won’t be able to test till this weekend coming up .
Roger that.
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Temp outside 45 battery full charge volt meter hooked up cranking the starter dropped to 11 volts no fire tried it twice still no fire tried wide open to clear still no fire then battery dropped to 10 volts so quit trying.Battery at beginning was at 13.5 volts.Not sure but the starter could be drawing too much thing I don’t like is all the lights are on that doesn’t help with the voltage.
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Temp outside 45 battery full charge volt meter hooked up cranking the starter dropped to 11 volts no fire tried it twice still no fire tried wide open to clear still no fire then battery dropped to 10 volts so quit trying.Battery at beginning was at 13.5 volts.Not sure but the starter could be drawing too much thing I don’t like is all the lights are on that doesn’t help with the voltage.
You got that right! Lights on is NO help especially when cold! BUT you had good volts during cranking! That proves battery and connections good. Next suspect is sidestand safety switch, run/stop switch and possibly the ignition (key) switch. In that order.
However, before you dive into those, do the speedo, tach needles go full scale then back to zero when you turn the key on? Do you hear the fuel pump run and shut off when the needles do their dance? Do all the caution (yellow) and danger (red) lights on the instrument cluster all light and then go out when the needles go to zero? Except the red oil light.
I probably forgot something but one of the other guys will point it out.
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When I try to start here’s what I do kick stand up key on wait till gauges sweep then go back pull brake on make sure fuel pump stops then hit the start button.All warning lights work fuel half full temp gauge shows first line.Batterylight off battery new with moose charger on it till I try starting.Spark plug new fuel cap has been vented.I haven’t drained the puke tube yet I’m going to check it next time I try starting it.Letting the battery recharge.I had the injector out cleaned it set the valves last weekend Then it started .Restarted 5 times no problem same temperature outside.For what ever reason after it sets doesn’t want to restart.Last weekend I was checking for spark when it didn’t start I was getting good spark that’s when I pulled the injector and did the cleaning on it and set the valves.Next I think I need to check pressure on injector.
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I may have missed it but when you say no spark, does thar mean no spark obseved at the shell grounded plug removed?
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I have spark good blue spark.
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Good spark...hmmmm
Wonder what a more powerful battery (higher than stock CCA) would do....especially if ECU on the EFI engine is not quite up to snuff.
My scooter's battery box will accept a much more powerful battery - than is supplied by Kymco.
Yuasa specs pages will show various batteries with same physical dimensions....and differing CCA's.
Stig
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What are the normal amp draw on the starter I have a dc amp meter that can measure draw.
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Here is a truly simple question that has not been answered: When you are cranking on the engine, what is the system voltage? It's a simple question with an answer that you need to know.
I installed a $12 voltmeter on my Downtown (see pic). But what I now is that if the voltage in the system drops below about 11.1-11.4 v, then you will get symptoms like yours. My bike acts like yours when my voltage reads in the 10's.
Scooter rant in general: Scooter charging systems are fragile. Why they cant put a stupid $5 voltmeter (if it costs me $10, it costs them $1 to make!) on every $5k scooter is beyond me.
Back to the topic: WHILE YOU ARE CRANKING, what is your voltage? Once you have this going, you should also check your running voltage to make sure it is charging the bike.The pic shows my running voltage
Once you are positive that you actually have sufficient power to the whole circuit, and sufficient fuel at startup, THEN start looking at things like a dirty throttle body
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I believed I already stated the voltage was at 11 volts when cranking and didn’t start battery was 13.5 at the time I unplugged the moose charger.Possible I got a weak battery it’s new.Back to starter how much do they normally draw on amps?
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The easiest way to check for a weak battery is to put a load on it. Turn on your headlights without starting the bike and see how long it takes for the red battery warning light on the dash to appear. If the warning light comes on within a few seconds you have a weak battery.
Check the starter motor, starter relay/solenoid and battery terminals for loose connections as well.
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The easiest way to check for a weak battery is to put a load on it. Turn on your headlights without starting the bike and see how long it takes for the red battery warning light on the dash to appear. If the warning light comes on within a few seconds you have a weak battery.
I don’t think a test like that will be reliable. A starter motor draws most power from a battery, and a Voltage reading taken while the engine swings should not give a reliable indication whether a battery is still good either.
When professionals do a proper load test, they put a specific load on the battery - according to to specific specs of the specific battery . This means different size batteries get tested under different loads. On top of this, a battery is suppose to hold it’s power for a number of seconds while the correct load gets used for the specific size battery. During the first few seconds a faulty battery might hold power, but it will start losing power within the next couple of seconds.
That’s why I always advice people to get a proper load test done at a battery specialist. They usually know how to do a reliable test on a battery.
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I have another "DUH" suggestion. Remove the cargo tub and battery cover and try to jump it off with a known good battery. You know someone with a car? Cover the basics.
I have a 12v deep cycle marine battery that I use for things like this.I would have tested with a known good battery right away
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That’s why I always advice people to get a proper load test done at a battery specialist. They usually know how to do a reliable test on a battery.
I know about the proper CCA/CA/RC/internal resistance testing, it's just that the OP can do a quick battery test in less than a minute using the scooters own systems. There is also an issue with taking a scooter that won't start reliably to a specialist or place that is not guaranteed to fix the issue.
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Ordered a new starter everyone here doesn’t give the answer I want .Want to know what the amp draw on a good starter.I read on another forum where a person had the same thing I’m going tru he tried 4 new batteries he checked the charge system and for voltage draw on system,what he did to fix his Kymco was a new starter and relay and been perfect after that.Just like my scooter once it would start was fine let it sit wouldn’t start.I had it hooked up to a group 31 car battery and wouldn’t start 1000 cca has to be the starter!
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please let us know what you find out.this has been a real puzzle.we can add it to our knowledge base.thanks.stig
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Your problem seems to have changed. In the original post, you said it started right up if you cracked the throttle. That would indicate that the starter WAS , by definition, working just fine...
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Got the new starter put it in cranks a little easier no start. Tried several attempts different throttle position still no fire check spark nice and blue pull injector spraying out good.Tried pulling plug clear chamber no fire.Battery getting weak jumped it from a car battery no start.I pulled the valve cover reset valves there were a little on loose side put it back together fire right up didn’t mess with throttle.Let it warm up killed restart everything good.My bike is a 2012 the starter I pulled off bike was stamped 2015 Kymco.What I learned is the valve setting must be dead on it starts with out touching the throttle.Took it for a ride was on a alley hit the throttle after taking off and spun the rear tire never ran like that before ran good but seems to have more pick up.The battery I have in it is too tall I made a clamp to hold it in the scooter but going to get the right size one next month.The starter was listed for a Kymco people 300 it was 40.00 shipped the only difference in the replacement starter was the terminal was on top just loosen the the two screws on the starter and rotate the center till the terminal lined up with the original one tightened the screws they way it was the air cleaner housing wouldn’t screw on.I also drained the puke tube wasn’t anything in it.