KymcoForum.com
General => Kymco News => Topic started by: JJJoseph on November 21, 2018, 04:12:50 AM
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Following my question about getting along without a Kymco dealer is the problem of diagnostics without dealer tools. I'm OK with my 10-yr old GY6 powered Kymco, but can't figure out how to maintain a new fuel-injected Kymco without Kymco diagnostic tools like on cars with OBD-2 ports. I can't see a source for Kymco diagnostic tools. Any suggestions?
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My MyRoad 700i flashes out codes with the check engine light when it sees a problem, not sure about yours.
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My MyRoad 700i flashes out codes with the check engine light when it sees a problem, not sure about yours.
That's not quite was I was asking about. The CEL is something different. I'm thinking of moving up from my 10-yr old Kymco to one of the new fuel injected models, and need diagnostic tools if something goes wrong. Like for example, it won't start. Normally with a fuel-injected machine, you tow it to the dealer who plugs in a hand-held device which shows the problem. But, with no Kymco dealer anywhere nearby, I'd need the hand-held diagnostic tool and training in how to use it. Where do I find this?
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Geography plays a part in my scooter purchases.
Several years ago I had to decide between buying, riding and possibly breaking down --- on an Italian scooter -- in rural MidWest.....
Or purchasing a Honda, with 3 Honda mega sellers nearby, and many scattered about the MidWest..
I went with the Honda.
Perhaps you'd be more comfortable buying a new EFI scooter brand which has plenty of local support?
That said, my VW mechanics convinced me decades ago that, using little more than a service manual, EFI engines are not hard to diagnose. They were an old aircooled VW shop, but had no trouble keeping my EFI, H20 VW's running.
Stig
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www.obdresource.com/1040-moto-7000tw-M700.html (http://www.obdresource.com/1040-moto-7000tw-M700.html) + another 50 bucks for the Kymco adapter cable. Yikes!
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www.obdresource.com/1040-moto-7000tw-M700.html (http://www.obdresource.com/1040-moto-7000tw-M700.html) + another 50 bucks for the Kymco adapter cable. Yikes!
The Kymco diagnostic tool is about $250.
Stig
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That's not quite was I was asking about. The CEL is something different. I'm thinking of moving up from my 10-yr old Kymco to one of the new fuel injected models, and need diagnostic tools if something goes wrong. Like for example, it won't start. Normally with a fuel-injected machine, you tow it to the dealer who plugs in a hand-held device which shows the problem. But, with no Kymco dealer anywhere nearby, I'd need the hand-held diagnostic tool and training in how to use it. Where do I find this?
I'm not really sure why people feel they need to have a scan tool especially on something as simple as a motorcycle. I could see it being more helpful on something like modern automobiles that often have a dozen or more computers controlling all kinds of functions. As a professional auto mechanic they are nice to have but basic knowledge of the system and how it works makes diagnosing a problem with a scan tool unnecessary. A simple multimeter and test light are all I use with a factory service manual.
Look at my posts in the Xciting 700 sub forum where I have diagnosed a bad electrically adjustable shock and crank/no start problem. Not to mention my other scooters where you can see my posts on the Burgman USA forum with some electrical problems I have had with my 650's including charging, crank/no start, electronic CVT system, etc... FYI just by having a code doesn't mean that specific part is to blame and diagnosis with a multimeter may still be required to test the components and circuits.
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Stig beat me to the Yikes! The Kymco tool has been useful but mandatory in only one case that I recall. Most of the problems that have been solved here would not have shown up on the tool. What solved them was knowledge of the systems and trial and error. Good old police work! Do not bother to ask a dealer and don't even listen to a salesman! The fuel injection system is very reliable. More reliable than present day carburetor set ups!
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The fuel injection system is very reliable. More reliable than present day carburetor set ups!
I'm not disputing your acquired wisdom. You have the advantage, and the faith to carry you through. I don't have that. I do know that a carburetor is easy to diagnose at home, but EFI is not. If my EFI Kymco won't start because of an EFI problem, there's nothing I can do since there's no dealer, and no other shop will even look at it. Even if I don't know how to use the diagnostics, a Brand-X dealer will know what to do. Without the diagnostics, it's junk. That's really an important consideration with EFI, not to be overlooked.
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By far the single most important item to have is a factory service manual from the vehicle manufacturer. This covers every thing from basic maintenance, electrical, how to take the body panels off, diagnostics, to rebuilding major assemblies.
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By far the single most important item to have is a factory service manual from the vehicle manufacturer. This covers every thing from basic maintenance, electrical, how to take the body panels off, diagnostics, to rebuilding major assemblies.
Thanks for the info. I do appreciate your reply. However, I was asking about diagnostics, not basic maintenance. Cheers!
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I do know that a carburetor is easy to diagnose at home, but EFI is not.
You do have a valid point there!
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MJR is exactly right! The trouble codes are built in. You may not be able to tell what the voltage is but you will be told it is out of spec. MJR is genius! Further, if not already mentioned, is most dealers have no idea how to even begin trouble shooting one of these. The folkes on here do! Also not mentioned, it IS possible to get the dealer to aquire parts on warranty and you put them on while returning the faulty part. It depends entirely on your relationship with the dealer. I did it with one in Nashville I do not particularly care for. Got a vacuum vent valve on warranty before I knew where it was! I would not walk across the street for this dealer to dump a glass of water on him if he was on fire but that came after the warranty arrangement. The thing to remember here is the dealer will throw parts at a problem until it goes away. Kymco USA is VERY easy with parts on warranty but real tight with labor. So you could make a whole buncha mistakes within reason with no or little downside.
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There's a lot of extremely valuable information from the ECU that isn't trouble codes.
Fuel trims, especially. It'll instantly point you towards leaking injectors, vacuum leaks, non-fuel issues, fuel starvation.
Also, sensors values can be within spec while there's still some issue. For example, a dead spot on the TPS.
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Also, sensors values can be within spec while there's still some issue. For example, a dead spot on the TPS.
That was the one example where the tool was really beneficial.
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Also, sensors values can be within spec while there's still some issue. For example, a dead spot on the TPS.
That was the one example where the tool was really beneficial.
The FSM has the resistance range a TPS has and a multimeter it would be easy to find slowly opening the throttle and watching for sudden changes in resistance or going open circuit. There are three codes related to a TPS possible also. Vacuum leaks can be found with a spray bottle of water.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4823/45958135342_6aacdbc58a_c.jpg)
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You guys are all very intelligent and capable, and you've all done amazing things, but you're not helping the discussion topic! For example, one reply was all about dealing with the Kymco dealer. And this was after I went to great lengths explaining that there is NO KYMCO DEALER here. So it's no use telling me how to deal with a Kymco dealer.
Next, there's excellent details about fixing the problems using the Kymco shop manual. Those remedies require TRAINING. I thought I said that I don't know how to do this and training was required. So I don't need to know what the experts do, I need training on how to use diagnostics e-tools.
It doesn't help me to read about how smart you are. I appreciate that you're really bright guys who can figure stuff out with a multi-meter. That's no help.
I'm trying to figure out how to keep a fuel-injected Kymco going WITHOUT a dealer anywhere within a hundred miles, and without all you real smart guys as next-door neighbors so I can ask you what to do next :-)
Can we get back to the original question: How to maintain/diagnose a new-gen Kymco without a dealer anywhere close by using some kind of OBD-type diagnostic tool? There must be OBD tools somewhere that can read Kymco faults, and there must be some way to learn how to use them.
Thanks!
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Stig mentioned that the Kymco diagnostic tool runs about $250. Would that be something to explore?
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My advise don't buy a fuel injected scoot if there isn't a dealer who can fix it for you. Buy a brand that you can have a dealer near you to work on it. Good luck.
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Re-read your diatribe and focused on you keeping an EFI scoot with no dealer AND having diagnostics. Bing! I think I get it, now! The way without forking over <250 bucks for the tool is banggod.com OBS-II Bluetooth reader thingy which would link to an app on phone or tablet. Oops! This will require you to figure out the wires on the three hole connector for the Kymco tool. Sorry, I don't think we can train you to do that on here. I am at a loss on how to help which I really want to help you.
Went back to the beginning of your thread. WHERE DO I GET THE KYMCO TOOL IF I HAVE NO DEALER? That is the question, right? Kymcopartsmonster.com is a dealer that is selling parts to nearly the whole nation. He can get the tool! And send it to you! Want the part number?
Part #3620A-LEB2-E00 that is thirty six twenty alpha-lima echo bravo two-echo zero zero. Dint want "oh" and zero interchanged!
We heard your hoof-beats and tried to tell you they wuz zebras! Sorry, JJ. Please forgive....
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Went back to the beginning of your thread. WHERE DO I GET THE KYMCO TOOL IF I HAVE NO DEALER? That is the question, right? Kymcopartsmonster.com is a dealer that is selling parts to nearly the whole nation. He can get the tool! And send it to you! Want the part number?
Good! We're making progress. I think I've found the tool with your help (see attached), now the challenge (and all Kymco riders will face this sooner or later) is: "how do I learn how to use the tool?" I've found YT videos describing the tool, and it looks useful, BUT there's no instructions on using it." Example: Does it work on all models of Kymco? Does it have a manual in English? How do the connectors work? Can the software be updated? Etc . . .
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My advise don't buy a fuel injected scoot if there isn't a dealer who can fix it for you. Buy a brand that you can have a dealer near you to work on it. Good luck.
Hi MJR- ALL motorcycles are EFI now, same as all cars. The difference now is you can't maintain either unless you have a dealer nearby or you learn how to use these new tools.
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Good! We're making progress. I think I've found the tool with your help (see attached), now the challenge (and all Kymco riders will face this sooner or later) is: "how do I learn how to use the tool?" I've found YT videos describing the tool, and it looks useful, BUT there's no instructions on using it." Example: Does it work on all models of Kymco? Does it have a manual in English? How do the connectors work? Can the software be updated? Etc . . .
The answer or more corectly, part of the answer is in the service manual. There are pictures in color of each feature of the tool and its program. It is really quite simple in operation and I don't think you can really screw up anything by hitting the wrong button or button push out of sequence. I'm saying if I can figger it out and not destroy the brain in my bike so can you. I will offer to "coach" you if you get one and even over the phone if you desire. I think the service manual is a good idea but not really mandatory because there is a wealth of information NOT in there and some of the information is incorrect. Most all on this forum have some kind of handle on the systems and features and where the Kymco skeletons are!
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I think you may have missed some of what the others were trying to say. —-If you have a service manual and are somewhat mechanically inclined, you indeed can fix many EFI problems without a specialty tool, special training, or super abilities.
But the diagnostic process must be more systematic rather than simple guessing.
Example: if an EFI equipped scooter won’t start, it’s for the same reasons that a carbureted scooter won’t start. It’s missing ignition, or fuel, or the engine has a mechanical problem such as low compression. The solution lies in finding what’s missing and why.
IF the check engine light is on and flashes at a certain sequence, it’s a good starting point. The check engine light is like a built in diagnostic scanner. Most of the time it involves measuring voltage, or resistance In wiring or component. Then you can go from there. So a multimeter and a test light are your most useful tools. A faulty sensor or component can usually be found by either measuring it directly or by measuring the circuits leading to it.
No start but No code? It still usually boils down to things you can often check yourself. Yes, it will require reading and learning. But you don’t need to learn everything. Just the area indicated by the code or by what’s missing.
If you do not have the nerve to touch it, often a motorcycle, or scooter mechanic will be willing to tackle it even if it’s not his brand because there are similarities between all brands. If he can get the specs, he can often fix it . It just takes him more time.
Finally, most brands have common problems. Once you ask around, you can usually start your diagnostic process with those common areas of failure.
Is it more difficult to DIAGNOSE an EFI equipped scooter without proper diagnostic tools? Yes. But it’s usually doable. Just don’t panic. Be systematic rather than just throwing stuff at it.
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But the diagnostic process must be more systematic rather than simple guessing.
Example: if an EFI equipped scooter won’t start, it’s for the same reasons that a carbureted scooter won’t start. It’s missing ignition, or fuel, or the engine has a mechanical problem such as low compression. The solution lies in finding what’s missing and why.
No start but No code? It still usually boils down to things you can often check yourself. Yes, it will require reading and learning. But you don’t need to learn everything. Just the area indicated by the code or by what’s missing.
I don't think we're getting anywhere. A standard OBD2 output lists 4,000 universal diagnostic codes. They're very precise in order to eliminate guesswork. The codes are stored in memory and retrieved by the mechanic by plugging in the OBD tool. Are you suggesting that the diagnostics are unimportant, that guesswork (i.e looking it up in a service manual) is actually the correct method? That looks like what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.
often a motorcycle, or scooter mechanic will be willing to tackle it even if it’s not his brand because there are similarities between all brands
Motorcycle mechanics won't touch an EFI machine without the matching diagnostic tool. Absent a Kymco dealer, I'll need to have the Kymco diagnostic tool in order to get my Kymco serviced at a Triumph dealer, for example. If the Kymco tool is non-standard, I'll need to bring a "How-to" manual with the tool.
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I’m an auto mechanic. And you are over complicating things. A dedicated manufacturers machine simply guides us in a particular direction. Also The cycle trouble codes are much more limited in scope than a late model car. . There are only a limited number of codes that apply to any individual cycle. The process is relatively simple. You retrieve the DTC (code) and look up it’s explanation. Then the manual will have a pinpoint test. The test will usually consist of a flow chart. The manual often also consists of a symptom chart and relevant tests for problems without DTC. A typical test will step by step take you through a process with the next step being determined by the results in the current step. It’s the EXACT SAME process that we take at a dealership. A dedicated scan tool simply speeds up the process. But reading codes and following the proper pinpoint test will get you to the same place, just slower. Once you know how YOUR scooter works, diagnosis is really not super complicated in most cases.
In the no start scenario you mentioned, if an engine is in sound mechanical condition and it has good fuel pressure, then there only a few sensors that operate the spark and injector. The DTC will send you the proper direction example: crank sensor, cam sensor, injector, coil, plug, the wiring to those sensors, computer. If you’re getting spark, then concentrate on fuel and vice versa.
If you don’t have the basic aptitude or patience, leave it alone. However, even in small Tallahassee, our kymco dealer will work on anything except the super cheap , low quality Chinese scooters . If you’re not comfortable with that, then it may be best to buy a scooter that has a local dealer who repairs it.
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I don't think we're getting anywhere. A standard OBD2 output lists 4,000 universal diagnostic codes. They're very precise in order to eliminate guesswork. The codes are stored in memory and retrieved by the mechanic by plugging in the OBD tool. Are you suggesting that the diagnostics are unimportant, that guesswork (i.e looking it up in a service manual) is actually the correct method? That looks like what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Understanding how the systems work comes first.
If you can't follow the flowcharts in the manual, the codes aren't going to be that helpful anyways. The codes and other ECU data are simply additional tools to make your life easier and help you decide what you're going to test.
And there's plenty of times where there will be no codes, or misleading codes. Or the code might tell you that there is a problem, but not suggest where to look for it.
And, as others have pointed out a few times, you don't need an external tool to read the codes on these bikes. You simply look at the blinks and cross-reference the manual.
Motorcycle mechanics won't touch an EFI machine without the matching diagnostic tool. Absent a Kymco dealer, I'll need to have the Kymco diagnostic tool in order to get my Kymco serviced at a Triumph dealer, for example. If the Kymco tool is non-standard, I'll need to bring a "How-to" manual with the tool.
On the contrary, I've heard many motorcycle mechanics don't bother to get the diagnostic tool, when they really should.
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Again, most kymco scooters will produce a code that you can access without a tool. Then you read the meaning of that code inna manual and follow the pinpoint test step by step.
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Understanding how the systems work comes first.
If you can't follow the flowcharts in the manual, the codes aren't going to be that helpful anyways. The codes and other ECU data are simply additional tools to make your life easier and help you decide what you're going to test.
And there's plenty of times where there will be no codes, or misleading codes. Or the code might tell you that there is a problem, but not suggest where to look for it.
And, as others have pointed out a few times, you don't need an external tool to read the codes on these bikes. You simply look at the blinks and cross-reference the manual.
On the contrary, I've heard many motorcycle mechanics don't bother to get the diagnostic tool, when they really should.
Even us at the dealer use the codes as a starting point. If it says Pxxxx crank sensor circuit fault, the test will likely have us step by step test the sensor, circuits to and from the sensor for proper power, ground, and resistance, to make sure there are no open circuits, shorts or unwanted voltage. The tests are not always clear. But in most cases of common failures they will lead us in the right direction. But a person who’s scared of fuel injection and intimidated by it will often have a SELF IMPOSED mental block and will often be unable to know where to start. He probably should leave it alone . Not because it’s too difficult, but because he’s too intimidated to logically go through the process.
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Getting lost here.
You have an EFI Kymco and are asking how to keep it serviced without dealer support?
OR, you don't have an EFI KYMCO ....but want to buy one?
Stig
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The topic description should have been "where to buy a Kymco factory scan tool and how to use it?". Yes its in the post but we have given him good answers to his actual topic question of diagnosing a EFI Kymco scooter without a dealer which was a part of his orginal question but he has fixated on having a scan tool even though he aludes that he himself does not feel confident in how to use it or possibly in diagnosing the bike himself.
As I stated a scan tool isn't necessary nor does it pinpoint the exact problem only what the ECU perceives as the problem which requires further testing/diagnostics in some cases. These codes can be displayed over the check engine light and the description can be found in the FSM without having to spend money on a scan tool. Now the factory service manual provides a wealth of information for diagnosing problems (including using a scan tool or not) which I think is essential for anyone who is going to work on the bike owner or repair shop. Yet I have been rebuffed for trying to help.
Also he throws out a list of some claimed 4,000 codes for a OBD II diagnostic system standard which to my knowledge only applies to automobiles per government regulations first started in 1991 in California with the OBD I standard and then to OBD II in 1996 in all the US. Other manufacturers like motorcycles might use some of these codes but as I said I do not know of any requirement for them to do so or share a common interface. Second in the case of my Suzuki Burman 650's and Kymco MyRoad 700i the list of available codes is extremely limited because motorcycles have such basic fuel injection systems compared to automobiles. In the case of my Suzuki Burgman 650's the total available codes number 25 possible with 8 of those being for its electronic CVT. The Kymco MyRoad 700i has only a total number of available codes of 26.
Also of note is in the case of my Suzuki it does not store codes in memory and clears itself within 3 seconds of the key being turned off. So if the problem was ok (intermittent) when you turned the key back on you would not have a code to read. The Suzuki has a connector under the seat that when you jumper two wires can display the codes on the odometer. The Kymco the ECU per the service manual will clear the code if the check engine light flashes out the code 4 times and it's not active (intermittent). Example my MyRoad stalled on me and flashed out the code (#2 crank sensor), it self cleared, when the key was turned on again 5-10 seconds later there was no code until I cranked it over because it wasn't looking for the crank sensor until then.
I have factory scan tools for Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep I use but mostly for other systems they are needed for like ABS, Airbag, SKIM sentry chip programmed keys to start the vehicle, or programming the ECU for various reasons. But motorcycle systems are so outdated compared to automotive systems which are integrated with each other vs the separate stand alone systems of motorcycles like automobiles were in the 1980's.
If you do not feel confident in working on a EFI motorcycle/scooter that's fine and there is no shame in that. If don't want to work on it then buying another brand motorcycle/scooter which has a dealer local to you that can like Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, etc... would be best.
If you want to buy the factory Kymco scan tool you will likely have to by it through a authorized Kymco dealer only unless you can find that the actual manufacturer of the tool sells it. This is due to licensing requirements from the vehicle manufacturer and any proprietary information involved in communication protocols.
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The topic description should have been "where to buy a Kymco factory scan tool and how to use it?". Yes its in the post but we have given him good answers to his actual topic question of diagnosing a EFI Kymco scooter without a dealer which was a part of his orginal question but he has fixated on having a scan tool even though he aludes that he himself does not feel confident in how to use it or possibly in diagnosing the bike himself.
As I stated a scan tool isn't necessary nor does it pinpoint the exact problem only what the ECU perceives as the problem which requires further testing/diagnostics in some cases. These codes can be displayed over the check engine light and the description can be found in the FSM without having to spend money on a scan tool. Now the factory service manual provides a wealth of information for diagnosing problems (including using a scan tool or not) which I think is essential for anyone who is going to work on the bike owner or repair shop. Yet I have been rebuffed for trying to help.
Also he throws out a list of some claimed 4,000 codes for a OBD II diagnostic system standard which to my knowledge only applies to automobiles per government regulations first started in 1991 in California with the OBD I standard and then to OBD II in 1996 in all the US. Other manufacturers like motorcycles might use some of these codes but as I said I do not know of any requirement for them to do so or share a common interface. Second in the case of my Suzuki Burman 650's and Kymco MyRoad 700i the list of available codes is extremely limited because motorcycles have such basic fuel injection systems compared to automobiles. In the case of my Suzuki Burgman 650's the total available codes number 25 possible with 8 of those being for its electronic CVT. The Kymco MyRoad 700i has only a total number of available codes of 26.
Also of note is in the case of my Suzuki it does not store codes in memory and clears itself within 3 seconds of the key being turned off. So if the problem was ok (intermittent) when you turned the key back on you would not have a code to read. The Suzuki has a connector under the seat that when you jumper two wires can display the codes on the odometer. The Kymco the ECU per the service manual will clear the code if the check engine light flashes out the code 4 times and it's not active (intermittent). Example my MyRoad stalled on me and flashed out the code (#2 crank sensor), it self cleared, when the key was turned on again 5-10 seconds later there was no code until I cranked it over because it wasn't looking for the crank sensor until then.
I have factory scan tools for Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep I use but mostly for other systems they are needed for like ABS, Airbag, SKIM sentry chip programmed keys to start the vehicle, or programming the ECU for various reasons. But motorcycle systems are so outdated compared to automotive systems which are integrated with each other vs the separate stand alone systems of motorcycles like automobiles were in the 1980's.
If you do not feel confident in working on a EFI motorcycle/scooter that's fine and there is no shame in that. If don't want to work on it then buying another brand motorcycle/scooter which has a dealer local to you that can like Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, etc... would be best.
If you want to buy the factory Kymco scan tool you will likely have to by it through a authorized Kymco dealer only unless you can find that the actual manufacturer of the tool sells it. This is due to licensing requirements from the vehicle manufacturer and any proprietary information involved in communication protocols.
MJR : I think you pretty much summed it up. We were attempting to show that a lot of diagnostics can be done using the check engine light produced codes , a service manual, and a basic multimeter if the person has a basic grasp of how to follow troubleshooting instructions. And the gentleman seemed to be totally intimidated because he seems to have over complicated things. 55 is a long way from 4000. Even so, even with the most complex automobile, the only relevant codes are the ones used by that particular manufacturer. And of them, the only relevant ones are the ones that are present during the issue being diagnosed. But if a person is totally intimidated by the prospect of servicing any piece of equipment, their best prospect is to purchase one that has local support if only for the piece of mind. Otherwise, they’d worry themselves into a frenzy over what MIGHT happen.
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What you guys said!
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But if a person is totally intimidated by the prospect of servicing any piece of equipment, their best prospect is to purchase one that has local support if only for the piece of mind.
OMG! The scooter psychologists have taken over here! What it boils down to is "For peace of mind, don't buy the EFI Kymco". I like my 2006 carbureted Kymco, so I thought maybe I could live with a new 2018 EFI Kymco. You've convinced me that, without a Kymco dealer, it's a horribly complicated machine, and I'd be better off with a different make. I'm sorry I even asked the question.
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It seems as if you are being argumentative. We TRIED to convey the idea that diagnosis of a fuel injected kymco is somewhat more involved than a carburetor. It’s more difficult without a scanner. But it’s not impossible by any means. But for every method we suggest (often based on our experience), you are seemingly giving us reasons why it won’t work. So that’s why I stated that it may be best to get one that has a dealership nearby. But again we are simply trying to say that in most cases a dealer is not required if you have a service manual , a few simple tools such as a multi meter , and the ability to follow a diagnostic test. If so, you CAN perform most diagnostics.
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....And considering most dealers, so far, have displayed total incompetence with nearly all models, you are better off doing any work by yourself.
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I hear ya JJJoseph....