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Scooters - 50cc => Super 9 => Topic started by: dont_tread_on_me on August 18, 2010, 08:40:27 AM
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Hello everyone!
I have an 04 stock liquid cooled super 9 that I want to refresh just a bit.It's has about 14,000 miles on it and has started to lose a little on the hills.I still get about 48 (speedo reading) on the flats,but it has a dead spot now between 20 mph up to about 30 or so.I know when a problem gets gradually worse it's hard to notice,but I'm at the point where I want to fix it.
First of all I'm going to replace the plug as it's about time,then I've ordered a Technigas Next R pipe because it was recommended by Steve from moped hospital.He mentioned that the stock pipe becomes clogged after so many miles and since the aftermarket pipe is about the same price as the factory pipe,why not upgrade? He also mentioned that because this was before most of the new emission standards that the factory jet should be fine for this pipe.Hopefully that is true because I don't want to run it too lean.
While I have the case open I'm replacing the belt too because I'm sure it's slipping,which I'm sure is robbing power at some point during WOT.I'm thinking these improvement should restore or even improve upon original performance somewhat.I'm not looking to get a big bore kit or new carb because I don't have the extra coin at the moment and I want to keep it a relatively simple daily driver that doesn't require constant tuning.
One question I have is how good are the rollers that come with the Technigas exhaust and how long will they last? Another question is I'm heavier than the average rider at about 265 lbs,so should I go lighter on the rollers to improve it's performance with my weight? So basically what rollers (brand,weight) should I use and where is the best place to get them? Any thoughts or help will be much appreciated!
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Welcome to the forum, I would not run a main jet less than an 85# (check yours) With the pipe you should go to an open airbox (k/n) the best to date. The rollers should be fine with the kit for you. I think with the openair box 7.5g should work well,with your overall wieght maybe a 7g set. I think mine came with a 7.5 and a 6.9 that should cover you. all said and done should put you in the 50+mph range and be just as reliable. Good luck.
PS Your dead spot could be just rollers and belt deffinatly change them.
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Thank you.Would you happen to know what the factory jet size is on the 2004 LC models? Also how hard are they to change?
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I don't have the s9 but I have owned 4 people 50's and every one has had a different main jet from the factory! most in the 70# range. One had a 68#
It's pretty easy to change the jets,once the airbox is removed even easyer ;D Most of us here drill our own,but here's a link. http://www.pjmotorsports.com/keihin-jets.html#main (http://www.pjmotorsports.com/keihin-jets.html#main) jets I think the 99101-116 is the correct one ??? double check your carb model. I think it's the keihin pb 16mm
(not confirmed)
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I think I'll seek some local help for that one.I have a friend that's a motorcycle mechanic that knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.Hopefully the new rollers,plug,exhaust and belt will cure my problem.I will check the plug to make sure it's not running lean.I wouldn't mind changing the air filter to a K&N but I'm afraid that will increase the probablility of needing to rejet.
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It's quite likely you will need to up jet anyway and running the stock airbox will rob you of the performance the pipe was ment for. If you have a friend to help let him show you how it's done,once you see how it works you will be able to do it your self and save A bundle doing your own maintanence.
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welcome to the forum...i dont have a s9 yet but i do have the same pipe on my zx..i ran the stock airbox for awhile, now i run an open air filter.. art is right, a nice difference..i wish i had done it sooner.. you will need to upjet for sure.. I AM A FIRM BELIEVER OF BOTH now that its done!! and now i dont have to take it to a shop for anything, learned what lil bit i do know from right here.. thanks to SEVERAL ppl here.
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Well I don't mind getting it done soon,it seems simple enough.I just want to make sure I get the right one and don't have to buy 10 different jets to figure out which one works best.I don't even know how to tell them apart.Like I said,I don't know much about carbs.I know you may have to try several,but I just don't want to get in over my head because it's my daily driver.
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on MY carb, the pa, finding jets was a hassle..yours wil be easier, but i actually learned how to "make" my own jet using a microbit, torch cleaners, calipers..several pics of "the kit" here...it only takes a few min. to drill out or solder back up.. :D the jet size should be stamped on the side or the tip of the jet..small # stamped in......id get the 4-5 next biggest sizes of jets(ie:90,92,94,96)..that should have you..i only went up around 2 sizes so far... ;)
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Much appreciated gentleman.I will most likely run it for a week or so and see how it does,then order a few jet sizes up and possibly a new airfilter.Thanks again for the replies.Just trying to decide now if an Iridium plug will make any difference over the regular one for just a daily driver.
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personally i wouldnt bother with that at the moment, you will be doing SEVERAL plug chops in the near future.......or you SHOULD anyway. ;D ;)
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I would highly recommend the Dr Pulley weights!
I know for a fact they will get you just a tad higher top end from their design and capabilities to edge the variator just a little farther.
And they don't flat spot either. :)
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I would have to agree on the Dr Pulley weights, if i could ever decide which weight im going to run ;D once dialed they are great!
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personally i wouldnt bother with that at the moment, you will be doing SEVERAL plug chops in the near future
Ok pardon my ignorance but W-hiskey T-ango F-oxtrot is a plug chop?
As far as the plug goes,I think I'm sticking with the OEM recommended for now.
I appreciate the advice on the rollers.By the way where is the best place to get them,you guys are the source so I figure before I try my Google-foo I would ask... ;D I'm not so worried about top end because I'm already faster then moped legal in Virginia,but a little more bottom and midrange is always a plus.So whatever you guys suggest to help there I'm all ears.
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Ha! check this out! http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html (http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html) . Reading your plug is the key to performance. An actual chop would take place by cutting your power while moveing to see what your plug and carb are doing at that particular part of the throttle twist.
http://www.provoscooter.com/scooters.html (http://www.provoscooter.com/scooters.html) These guys arn't bad there are more I like SIP out of germany but not to good for beginners(pain in the ass to nav.) or small orders.But good prices!!!
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Just another thought on rollers,if it's the same as the people 50cc 8.5g is the stock weight. I found after the mods your going to do 7.0g to 7.5g worked well. Not sure if the s9 is the same. If it is and wanting more low and mid go with the 7,but i found you'll want the 7.5 for all around and a little more top after you get used to the performance. Of corse this led to even more (caution!) Modding is habbit forming!!! ;D :D ;)
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Ok guys,I got the pipe yesterday,and I didn't realize there is some assembly required,so I opened up the box and decided it didn't look all that complicated,so I put it together.I was going to have my mechanic buddy from work install the pipe and rollers,So I figured I would save his time by doing this step for him.He is putting on new tires as well (Michelin Pilot sport) anyway.
Well after sitting there staring at the damn thing and realizing that I couldn't just sit there and look at it,I got off my chair cushion warmer and decided I could do this myself.What worried me the most is the nut on the variator because I knew they can be a PITA to get off without a impact driver.So I changed the pipe first because I figured this should be the easiest.After getting the pipe on there,I took it for a short run to see what difference there was without the new rollers.All I can say to that was WOW!
My poor scoot wouldn't get out of it's own way! It felt like it was stuck in first gear and wouldn't wind up to change.Well I figured it was going to suck without the new rollers,but I didn't think that much! So the next step was removing the cover of the crankcase.All went well except that far left nut is a bitch to get to.Surprisingly the variator nut was fairly trouble free after figuring out that I can use a screwdriver to hold the kickstart wheel from spinning.
After removing everything and looking at the old rollers,I had a good feeling the new rollers were the ticket.The old ones were pretty rough,and understandably so seeing as how they are the original set.They had flat spots and grooves in them....yummy! Ok so after getting everything back together,I just put two screws in the cover and took it out again to test things out.Let's just say it was like driving two different scooters.
It comes out of the hole much better,no dead spots and it will peg the speedo way past 50 MPH.I'm not sure how fast it's actually going but it revs much higher now too.This has to be the best $170 bucks I've spent in a while.By the way the stock belt looked great so I didn't bother to change it.Now I just need tires and a new plug and I'm good to go.I may play with rollers down the road as It is still a tiny bit weak in the midrange but the airbox may take care of that,along with bigger jets.
The best part along with feeling great about not fudging it up,and it works well,is that I saved a few bucks worth of labor charges!
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I've been thinking about this some more...(Don't tell me I told you so about moding either dang it ;D)...but I was wondering how much would a performance variator help my midrange and hill performance.I've already decided to get lighter rollers,but I don't know what size the super 9 uses,and I don't know what weight the Technigas kit came with.So in order to be able to decide which ones to get,I need to know where to start from.From what I understand lighter is better for low end and hills,but may cut your top end some,which is fine by me.
Also does anyone know the difference betwen an NGK-BR6HSA and an NGK-BR8HSA spark plugs.My manual lists both and doesn't really say which one is best...?
Looking at this...
http://www.scootertronics.com/drpuva.html (http://www.scootertronics.com/drpuva.html)
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congrats dude....woooo hooooo!!!. gotta love it.....see, it is habit forming.. ;D ;) if i am correct the rollers that came with kit are like 8g.. try some 7s... art told about the plug chops..they do work. :D youll have a small pile for future use. ;D dont know if you have changed the contra spring yet, that may need it next... ;) but youll definately need to do some after the open filter, gotta rejet.....youll likey.. ;)
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Ok without doing anything else yet,what will a new contra spring do,should I go lighter or stiffer on that? I think the stock rollers are 8.5 so I thought the new ones I have are something like 7 now,but I might be wrong.I was thinking somewhere around 6.5 or so to get the bottom end and midrange really pulling good.It's not bad now but I think it could be a bit better.I have a lot of hills and drive in town a lot so top end isn't as crucial,plus it's a ticket getter as well.What size/dimensions are the rollers,I can't find it anywhere online...
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well, im getting ready to go to 6s.. 7s should do you good for now, i am slightly more modded than you right now..im not certain but i think they measure 16x13mm on the rollers..on the contra, i am running the malossi white(1000), tried the malossi yellow(1500) but i think to still for now...i also have alot of hills, the white does pretty good..itll help the hills,
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You should try the weights that came with it,If you have one oh those digi scales from back in the day ;) you can weigh them. You will also want to go to the stiffer spring It will allow your rpm's to climb higher defore enguageing. may even want the 1500 yellow or the malossi green. If you go this road it will change your roller weight again. I know your not concierned about top but when all is right you will get good performance all the way through.
Try the spring first,you will most likely need a torqu wrench for this side and a vice or clamps to keep the clutch compressd to get it apart. and a large wrench for the keeper bolt.
I think someone has the BUG !!! :o ;) ;D
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since its still stock, wouldnt the yellow or green be to stiff?????? yellow seemed to still for me, but idk...rpms took to long to rev up and engage anywhere...idk
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Usually get a white spring with one of the kits,my thoughts on the s9 is it's making a little more power out of the box,said he has been pegging the needle allready. So may be able to go to next. Deffinetly try the white first. I havn't got to play with an s9 yet so I dont realy know,but i think it's similar to the people 50 2t.
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true that.....its hard to keep remembering that i am in a class all alone. :'( :D ;)
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Seems my post on your plug range didn't make it. The br8 should be fine in reality the more air you move you may want to go to a cooler plug like a br9. The plugs they mention in the book would be for extreme cold or high altitude and are in fact hotter running plugs(the lower the # the hotter the plug) Go figure :D and with mods heat is the enemy. hope that helps.
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i have always ran the br8....hmmm, more plug choices.. ;D i am at a higher altitude than everybody else it seems so maybe a br9 isnt needed. :-\
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I'm running the br8hix now and has been better than all the rest. Go figure :o I think i'm on to something with my hot rod i'll post later in the people threads (if i don't pass out!) The only reason i can't test my theory right now :P :D ;)
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hadnt seen that.just always got the br8hsa....hmmmmn....i be waiting...if you dont pass out.. :D
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Thats the iridiom hwever its spelled woo hoo some ones got a buzz :D
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Thanks to everyone for the replies.As of right now,it's runing very well.I think it may flatten out a bit in the 40MPH range,but nothing terrible.Will a new torque spring help that? I'm thinking of getting a torque spring and a roller test kit that has various weight to try to see what will work best.I just need to know what size weight I need...anyone know...?
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Thanks to everyone for the replies.As of right now,it's runing very well.I think it may flatten out a bit in the 40MPH range,but nothing terrible.Will a new torque spring help that? I'm thinking of getting a torque spring and a roller test kit that has various weight to try to see what will work best.I just need to know what size weight I need...anyone know...?
you just said it bro, "try and see what works best"...lmao.its a project, several runs to find it but 7s/7.5s should have you right in the ballpark...... yeah, a spring will help also..i run the malossi white right now., try one of those....if your smarter than i...lmao, there is a thread/link about variator setup all by itself..it reall helps but of course i still have trouble dialing mine in completely.....lmao
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So just too pipe in on this LOL
Are you guys saying an aftermarket air filter say K&N style will benifit the S9 with a decent pipe on ?
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Not without jetting properly than you'll get quite an increase! The weights size should be 16x13x your choice ;)
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I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE!!!!!........ :D ;D ;) come on, become a believer.. ;)
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From what I can find out I might have an 85 or a 92.I really hate to have it pulled apart to find out for sure which.Then I'll have to order one,then wait on it to get here so someone can put it back together.If I knew which one it was for sure I'd have a starting point to order the next few sizes up.I'll have someone else do this one because it's above my comfort level at least for now..
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It is pretty easy,can be done in 15 min. once you know how. 4 or so bolt in the seet bucket two on the carb and out it comes,once that pesky airbox is gone! ;D 4screw at the bottem of the carb remove the floats and theres your jets ;)
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Actually doesn't sound that bad.So I won't lose any adjustments or anything like that? What about the throttle cable,does it have to be removed and how much trouble it is?
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no, you wont lose any adjustments unless you move screws. ;) its not bad, pretty easy there...if like mine, just unscrew the throttle valve and pull out..when you put back, be easy, it should slide all the way down, minimil effort to tighten back.
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Ok so I'm thinking a white torque spring,a new airbox/filter (still need a recommendation there) along with bigger jet/s and an experimental set of rollers so I can dial it in better after the torque spring is in...so far so good? Any other suggestions? I have no idea what to get for the airbox,do I need a new box and filter of just a better filter? Almost forgot,will the white spring fit the stock clutch setup?
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hey tread...yeah, you got it bro...yeah, when you look at springs just get for your application.(alot will cross refferance)(provoscooter.com is where i ordered mine,pretty good store)...you want a k+n open style cone shaped filter..(shop for prices,some stores are more costly)..yeah, i also need a roller tunning kit. :D (provoscooter has those also)..(malossi rollers are the best after you get it tuned in to the right wieghts).just take carb bowl off and check your jet sizes, and order some new goodies... ;D good to replace once a yr anyway........good luck bro...
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I'm kind of thinking that the new airbox will be quite a bit louder than what it is now,and trying to stay "moped" legal I really don't want to draw undue attention to myself by excess noise.People have already told me the pipe is louder,but not unacceptably so,but I'm unsure how the local "fuzz" would be about it.Is there a better filter I can get without replacing the airbox?
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if its louder, then ppl can KNOW your there and maybe not run over you. ;D ;) yeah, itll get louder, mine did...the local fuzz dont pay me any attention on mine here...everybody hears me coming tho. :D ;) as long as your not breaking any laws, the po po wont bother you....oh wait, where are you located?????????..in the u.s??..
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I'm in virginia,35 MPH is the legal top speed limit for moped class scooters.That's why top end isn't really my goal.I run faster than I should,but don't try to press my luck either.I have a good feeling i'm running a 92 jet now.I pulled the plug the other day and so far it looks fine,After I get the new plug/s I'm going to do it again,but if I don't get and airbox I'm sure i'll be fine with the current jetting.I would like a better flowing filter though.Anyone make a better factory replacement?
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Almost forgot,The carb model is the KEIHIN PB14 not pb16 so IDK if there are any replacement jets made for that carb...anyone?
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same spped liimit here, BUUUUUUUUT. ;D ;) you will still be rescricted with oem airbox but, yeah, k+n, etc makes a filter for the oem style box..take a 3/8 drill bit and drill a few holes in the box to help with flow...i have a pa14, same jets i think.(threads whole length, slot in end for screwdriver). :D :D :D probably not, supposedly they make them soewhere. but i NEVER have found any, got tired of looking..learned to make my own recently ;D ;) makes it easier actually..... just put a kit together and rock.. ;)
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oh yeah, pretty sure carbs are the same..check out my thread oem carb tunning, may help somewhere. i am still learning much. ;)
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I ordered a couple sets of rollers today and a KRD 5% silver torque spring.Steve at MH told me not to go to stiff with a stock engine,so I'll give this a shot first and see what happens.I have noticed since I've been riding to work and with an added couple pounds from my bag,the dead spot at the 7000 rpm mark is more noticable on hills and it takes about a second and a half when you take off at WOT before the rpms jump up at somewhere around 8200,then it really hammers! Hopefully the new T.spring will make it not have that delay at launch and will help it downshift on hills to get the engine revs back up into it's powerband.I think the rollers need to be a little lighter,but I also know I'm going to have to play with weights again after the T.spring change.So hopefully I got enough weights to find one that will work!
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Sounds good. Let us know how it goe's for you.
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I will,thanks.I got the news tires put on this morning.All I can say is WoW! What a difference between these Michelins over the old Kenda's.The other ones had started to cup and wear really weird,and had all but made me very uneasy about wet roads.The Michelins pilot sports I've used before on a Hyosung and are even better than I remember!
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Ok guys,I got the torque spring and the new rollers today.I got the clutch bell off and couldn't figure out how to get that bigass nut off of the clutch.Neither I nor my neighbor had anything big enough to break that bitch loose.It was on there too.Will I need an impact for that? I put in the 6 gram rollers and the take off doesn't have as much hesitation before revving nicely and hills I was doing 33-35 by the time I got to the top I'm now getting 40 MPH.So not too bad for just the rollers.I also got a set of 7.5 grams for when I get the torque spring installed,so along with the 6.5's I should be able to dial it in a little after the spring goes in.So far so good!
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Nice, An impact would do it if you have the right socket. I usually use a large cresent wrench and a rubber mallet to tap it loose. May need some pb blaster or = to get it off the first time(It's a bitch)
You do have to be carfull not to bugger up the nut if you go this rout. I hold the box end tight to the nut and try tapping to start,if it don't go you may need someone to hold wrench or do the hammering and go at it with some more force.(This is while i have it secured in a vice)
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i use a vise....turn the clutch upside down, install the nut in the vise, tighten...either by hand or with some big channel locks, grab the outside rim of the pulley itself and twist..works very easy, alot easier than trying to fing a socket/wrench..mine is a 39mm.... the vise is easier....of course your vise needs good square jaws to hold the nut, otherwise itll pop back out when you try amd tighten.... and i use my feet to reinstall the spring/clutch then place back in vise to final tighten..takes about 7min all together.... art is correct about messing the nut up, wont take much to cross thread..be careful there.
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Wow! :D you just taught me something, I'll have to try that next time. I didn't think there would be enouph leverage to do it that way considered it once, and the standing on it priceless 8) Ha! usually get the wife to help with that one(she hates it :D) I don't bend so well anymore but got to try that one ;)
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woo hooo, iz a teacher. ;D yeah, works good, to me. i use my feet (i am usually sitting tho, lil easier)to press down the clutch and screw nut on, then vise it again to tighten.... never could find a 39mm, and seen this done and BAM, another no labor cost from any shop.... ;D :D
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Ha! ya the 39mm cost about the same as a shop visit, not to many cheap alternatives
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Well damn.I just borrowed a 34 and a 36 from my wife's Uncles shop,thinking it looked pretty close to one of them.After that I was going to use an impact,but the vice idea should work nicely as well.They seemed to jump two sizes and they were all even so IDK if there was a 39 in his set on not.
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I had one once cost about $38 so havn't replaced it. Lent it out somewhere along the line never seen it again :'( I think there is an amercan = but can't remember the size. at those prices don't want to be wrong.
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if i am not mistaken, 1-5/8 is the = 2 the 39mm. yeah, they arent cheap...in a jumbo socket/ratchet set, whichs cost about $125, the size is there....another reason the vise issssssss ggggrrreeeeeat.. :D ;D
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39mm's is 1.54 inches so...5/8 = 0.625 I think the 9/16 = 0.5625,which is closer to the 1.54.Anyone know if they make an 1 an 9/16ths socket...lol?
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use a vise, less headache....alot easier ;)
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but just to clarify.....it wont fit...to small...1-1/2...too small...1-5/8....use a vise.......
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I couldnt find a socket to fit so I just cut a spanner to fit out of quater inch mild steel. this nut is not very tight. I think I posted about it in the tech section in different size variator.
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i think i remember that thing.. :D think it was at the begining for sure, that thread has gotten long...lol sid is the man on homemade tools for sure.... several nice toys i wish i had.. ;)
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Ok guys,I have not put in the spring yet but I'm working on that.Anyway I've been riding for several days now with the 6gr rollers and I like it so far.My only real complaint is that it's just a little dead at dead stop acceleration until the revs build up to about 8 grand then it hammers.It does much,much better on hills,but still occasionally doesn't not downshift when it should.Hopefully the new torque spring will take care of both of those issues.Also I'm certain it's the wrong plug in it as well.I looked the other day and forgot to write down the model,but it's not the right one.I'm still waiting on the ones I ordered about a week and a half ago from the local shop! >:( I'll keep you posted as I get more done,thanks for all the help!