KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stig / Major Tom on September 12, 2018, 11:18:12 AM
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Interesting article in the news today that NTSB is considering requiring all bikes sold in the USA to have ABS....and is studying requiring ATC ( traction control) as well.
Lots of personal opinions surface around ABS on two wheelers....
I, for one, will never buy another bike or scooter without ABS.
KYMCO has proven that ABS needn't be a $500/$600 option.
Europe required ABS on 125+cc scooters in 2016.
Stig
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Big Brother stuff. Make it an option and let me make the choice.
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Big Brother stuff. Make it an option and let me make the choice.
I agree. Sick of the government mandating everything. Consumers pay out of the bazoone for all these new gizmos. I have ridden motorcycles for 50 years without ABS.
People should have a choice.
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While the technology may be an improvement in safety the government has no business mandating it. They are not authorized to do so by the Constitution. However, most if not all bureaucracies ignore the law and just post regulations anyway. There is the added attraction of regulations imposed that will favor a certain company while barring others. This usually involves payoffs, tips or bribes. Like helmets, seatbelts, safety glass and airbags are/were good safety ideas that were forced on the public "for our own good." The most glaring have been DRL and airbags. Air bags were a "passive restraint" that worked in ONE TYPE of collision: straight ahead. Shoulder belts and lap belts were good in all crashes but people just would not put 'em on so they passed a law "for our own good." Daytime running lights were becoming popular in Kansas when I was commuting to school in the early 60's. Kansas, the home of half-blind farmers who would stop on a highway, their pickup doors inches apart to discuss whatever farmers discus, totally blocking the road! Kansas, the home of the single white light in the center of the grille to warn oncoming drivers there was a vehicle ahead. This idea was inspiration to GM to develop a diode circuit for the headlights so they would be about 60% of full voltage brilliance and be on anytime the ignition was on or after engine start. GM was, I suspect, instrumental in legislation to make this mandatory. This produced another phenomenon of people driving around in the dark with no tail lights!
Now we have a situation where riders by and large think ABS on two wheels is a good idea and manufacturers are starting to put them on their machines. That is the way things are supposed to work. So why are some outfits sending ABS bikes everywhere but HERE?! Is it a set-up to make it a law so legislators get more lobby money? So manufacturers can get more money per model? I would not doubt it but I'M a cynic.
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Amen, Karl!
It's reassuring to know we share more then the love of riding, that we also share libertarian beliefs about the gummamint's role in our lives. I won't ride without a helmet but I bitterly resent Big Brother telling me I must, or else. Freedom=choices and when we lose the right to choose we lose our freedoms.
Stu
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as with the auto industry the motorcycle industry is now being told by the governments to protect the end user for their own stupidity as to how they are using said products. to the point where the products are safer but way more expensive then they need or aught to be.
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I’m in the minority here. But if the technology is ready, I’m for it. Panic stops are not things we plan to happen. Also, remember that remaining in control helps us to avoid hitting OTHER people or vehicles. If abs was only to save the rider, I’d agree to it being only an option. There’s a delicate balance between common sense regulations and over regulation. Requiring Traction control may indeed be OVER regulation. But in my opinion (I don’t claim to know it all) Requiring ABS (if the technology is ready) seem more on the side of common sense regulation on cycles that are capable of certain speeds or weigh a certain amount.
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Choice please.
All part of The dumbing down.
“Help please mr government man save me from myselfâ€.
Ya know training wheels would also be helpful ....
AMAC
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Honda has developed an air bag for motorcycles. Should they be required on all motorcycles/scooters?
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I hope this never happens but it probably will at some point. ABS just doesn't make sense on some bikes like small dual sport bikes. While I think ABS makes sense on street bike I hate big brother telling me what to do.
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I think I might have better said: "The USA will be getting ABS on all new bikes, and maybe traction control."
NTSB: "Insurance Institute for Highway Safety determined that anti-lock brakes could reduce motorcycle fatalities by 31 percent."
Then we could argue technology----maybe change the tenor of the responses to the OP.
Stig
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I think I might have better said: "The USA will be getting ABS on all new bikes, and maybe traction control."
NTSB: "Insurance Institute for Highway Safety determined that anti-lock brakes could reduce motorcycle fatalities by 31 percent."
Then we could argue technology----maybe change the tenor of the responses to the OP.
Stig
I don’t have to change my response that much. [emoji16][emoji16]. If the technology is “ready for prime timeâ€, I think the manufacturers should make abs standard on every cycle/scooter that’s capable of a certain speed or weighs a certain amount. I believe the information exists that will help determine what that speed/weight should be. Manufacturers have a vested interest in preserving the health and life of their customers. ABS and traction control started out as options on high end cars. Then it move down to the least expensive. At its heart, it’s simply a computer which takes advantage of already existing equipment. As with cars, most scooters already have wheel speed sensors, and the technology is not very expensive at all once it’s on every scooter.
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I get both sides of this. Though I don’t get why people wouldn’t want abs, unless they are doing some off roading and don’t some BMW dual sports come with the ability to turn off the abs and traction control when desired? I may have to do some digging, can’t remember where but was reading something about a guy testing the abs brakes in all sorts of terrain and found it stopped better and had more control with them on, which surprised him. But I know if that Genuine Buddy I was riding last November would’ve had ABS, I wouldn’t of gone in that slide that fractured my ankle. That’s why I am so happy to have it now on my Kymco Like 150i. Granted I live in Minneapolis and pretty much everytime I go on a ride someone is either looking at their phone or just not paying attention and suddenly just pull out right in front of me, so my hands are always at the ready of the brake handles, just too many idiots out there. I love libertarianism and wish we all could be left to do as we please and be left alone in peace, but there’s all these idiots out there where it just isn’t possible. I don’t look at Government mandated ABS as a training wheel thing, it’s just more an added safety protection against idiots. I mean ABS is only there when you need it. And ABS systems have come so far. Plus if every manufacturer has to add it, it will bring the price down. But speaking of price...what was the sticker price for the 200i vs the 150i again? If Kymco can do it..... I really do wish that they could ship all the idiots to their own island and over govern the ones that need it and leave us civilized folk alone and peace love and happiness and all that. But since the technology is here and keeps people safer from harm, whether self inflicted or due to others. Then why not? At Least it isn’t CBS. But maybe offering a way to turn it off would be a happy medium.
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I get both sides of this. Though I don’t get why people wouldn’t want abs, unless they are doing some off roading and don’t some BMW dual sports come with the ability to turn off the abs and traction control when desired? I may have to do some digging, can’t remember where but was reading something about a guy testing the abs brakes in all sorts of terrain and found it stopped better and had more control with them on, which surprised him. But I know if that Genuine Buddy I was riding last November would’ve had ABS, I wouldn’t of gone in that slide that fractured my ankle. That’s why I am so happy to have it now on my Kymco Like 150i. Granted I live in Minneapolis and pretty much everytime I go on a ride someone is either looking at their phone or just not paying attention and suddenly just pull out right in front of me, so my hands are always at the ready of the brake handles, just too many idiots out there. I love libertarianism and wish we all could be left to do as we please and be left alone in peace, but there’s all these idiots out there where it just isn’t possible. I don’t look at Government mandated ABS as a training wheel thing, it’s just more an added safety protection against idiots. I mean ABS is only there when you need it. And ABS systems have come so far. Plus if every manufacturer has to add it, it will bring the price down. But speaking of price...what was the sticker price for the 200i vs the 150i again? If Kymco can do it..... I really do wish that they could ship all the idiots to their own island and over govern the ones that need it and leave us civilized folk alone and peace love and happiness and all that. But since the technology is here and keeps people safer from harm, whether self inflicted or due to others. Then why not? At Least it isn’t CBS. But maybe offering a way to turn it off would be a happy medium.
That makes sense. Technology evolves. But some is invisible and we don’t know we need it until we need it. Abs is one of those things. I didn’t appreciate ABS in cars until I made a panic stop and was actually able to steer. Until then, I thought it was just a gimmick.
If you compare a 1966 to a 1967 automobile, you’ll find dual chamber master cylinder on the 67. It’s not something a person would have likely chosen because they didn’t understand the need. It’s only needed when 1/2 of the brake system fails. In the 66, a leak in one wheel would take out the entire system. Yes, the government mandated it. In my opinion, that was a good thing. Anyway, li believe that technology should be used once it’s affordable and EFFECTIVE.
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ABS is mandatory on all motorcycles in EU since (I think) 2017.
Can't buy a new motorcycle without it.
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I’ve read so many times how “abs has saved me a few timesâ€.
To that I answer “you don’t have a equipment issue but you have a skill issueâ€.
Modern cars have made driving minndless so I guess bikes are next.
Tech good until it’s autonomous vehicles. Bet many here that love abs don’t care for those even if they are safer than human driven cars.
AMAC
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https://youtu.be/dJ_UkAFW6cA
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I’ve read so many times how “abs has saved me a few timesâ€.
To that I answer “you don’t have a equipment issue but you have a skill issueâ€.
Modern cars have made driving minndless so I guess bikes are next.
Tech good until it’s autonomous vehicles. Bet many here that love abs don’t care for those even if they are safer than human driven cars.
AMAC
I agree that Autonomous vehicles are OVERKILL . But Even most PROFESSIONAL drivers can’t match ABS in an automobile. When ABS was relatively new, several reputable magazines had professional drivers compare stopping distances under various conditions and circumstances with and without ABS. The ONLY case where some professional drivers were able to beat ABS slightly was in straight line stopping on perfectly dry pavement. Abs simply pumps and releases the brakes much more swiftly than ANY human could do. I believe that Technology SHOULD supplement skill, not replace it. Also (in cars) traction control allows a car to get out of a place where it would simply be impossible otherwise. Example if one wheel is on mud or ice. But the other is on solid ground. Not sure what benefit it would have on a scooter or motorcycle.
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I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up the bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig
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Meteor drops are really, really bad. Really bad....oh, the humanity!
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I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up thr bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig
Yes, a friend of mine had a KTM 1190 with cornering ABS.
You can use is leaning into a corner without worrying you are gonna loose the bike.
https://youtu.be/hHRWg91hv-M
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Yes, a friend of mine had a KTM 1198 with cornering ABS.
You can use is leaning into a corner without worrying you are gonna loose the bike.
https://youtu.be/hHRWg91hv-M
Yep, staying in the corner while hard braking beats the heck out of visiting the rocks on the berm!
A lot of local HD wrecks are one vehicle, leaving the road. One wonders if that $15 addition to the ECU would have helped that guy, that night.
Stig
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Tried the KTM 1190.
That thing is brutal, 150hp, feels light, like you have a 600ccm bike under you, great brakes, doesn't really matter what gear you're in, it just goes.
They put all the electronic aids on it because it would be very hard to ride it without em.
Makes you do things that are not legal, all the time...
[emoji48][emoji16]
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I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up thr bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig
Bro. I love the way to bring humor and wit into these discussions. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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Forbes's master cylinder change is a good example I think of some need for regulations.
Not motorcycle related, but an example I always think of is lead paint. Until 1978, we were still covering our buildings with neurotoxins 25% of the time. There's no good way of dealing with it later. You'd THINK people would stop doing it on their own accord, but it took regulations to finally put an end to it.
My problem with ABS is that it tends to be locked in. I can access most information inexpensively on my GM minivan with a cheap OBDII reader and cheap software. But I can't activate the ABS pump without their expensive proprietary tool.
Motorcycles are typically much worse, and you need their expensive proprietary tool to access ANY information.
If they're going to mandate this, they also need to mandate a physical switch to cycle the pump, and a switch to disable ABS completely (manufacturer doesn't get to decide if I take my bike offroad). But they aren't going to.
Also, no already existing equipment on my still-in-production bike. They've made changes EXTREMELY conservatively, which was a selling point for me. So late 80's technology only.
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I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up the bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig
Cornering ABS has exactly ZERO impact on whether or not a bike will tend to stand up in a corner and want to run wide. Cornering ABS keeps your wheels from locking up and maintaining traction if you brake to hard while in a curve. Most of the bikes I have owned did not stand up under braking in a curve, some did. I think the biggest factor in that tendency is tires. My EX500 was perfectly neutral while braking in a curve with the stock tires. When I put on some different tires it would try to stand up. Switching tires again made the bike neutral again.
ABS, cornering ABS, Off road ABS, traction control, all good stuff but can only go so far. It isn't a cure for stupid. Go into a curve and hit some gravel and all that stuff won't save you. learning how to ride your motorcycle/ scooter might. There are already too many people out there riding bikes who don't know what they are doing. I'm afraid that all this new technology will just make that problem worse.
I'm not saying that this new technology is bad, just that it also has it's drawbacks. What happens when your ABS fails while you are braking on a wet road and you don't have a clue how to use your brakes without ABS?
ABS is reliable and never fails? I'm afraid not. It happened to a friend on his BMW R1200GS. When he researched the issue he found it was not that uncommon.
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Cornering ABS has exactly ZERO impact on whether or not a bike will tend to stand up in a corner and want to run wide. Cornering ABS keeps your wheels from locking up and maintaining traction if you brake to hard while in a curve. Most of the bikes I have owned did not stand up under braking in a curve, some did. I think the biggest factor in that tendency is tires. My EX500 was perfectly neutral while braking in a curve with the stock tires. When I put on some different tires it would try to stand up. Switching tires again made the bike neutral again.
ABS, cornering ABS, Off road ABS, traction control, all good stuff but can only go so far. It isn't a cure for stupid. Go into a curve and hit some gravel and all that stuff won't save you. learning how to ride your motorcycle/ scooter might. There are already too many people out there riding bikes who don't know what they are doing. I'm afraid that all this new technology will just make that problem worse.
I'm not saying that this new technology is bad, just that it also has it's drawbacks. What happens when your ABS fails while you are braking on a wet road and you don't have a clue how to use your brakes without ABS?
ABS is reliable and never fails? I'm afraid not. It happened to a friend on his BMW R1200GS. When he researched the issue he found it was not that uncommon.
None of the technology is a cure for stupid. However, it’s MUCH more likely that an average or even good driver will encounter a situation where ABS helps than one where ABS fails in the middle of a braking event involving a totally unskilled driver . When ABS fails, it defaults to regular brakes. And a warning light comes on. Since most drivers have little knowledge, they think that brake failure is imminent and will drive as such.
I do agree that ABS testing access needs to be standardized like engine OBD . But ironically, it will take Government regulation to make that happen. With cars, prior to 1996, each company had their own connectors and test equipment. But now ALL cars have the same connector. And ABS codes are also access through that connector. . Personally, I think that scooters should have the same access connector .
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It's an interesting concept and will undoubtedly affect the US in a different way to how it took effect in Europe. Our requirement for combined brakes (under 125cc) or ABS (over 125cc) came in as a package of other requirements, which effectively phased out carburettors in favour of fuel injection.
The side effect is that a number of manufacturers/importers left the European market rather than comply.
I don't really have a horse in this race. ABS is good and I do with I had it in the car sometimes, but don't have much experience with it on bikes.
We had about a 50% price rise in learner-legal bikes when the Euro 4 regs came in, but it made little/no difference to the bikes that aren't learner legal. To be fair, forcing some of the cruddy manufacturers from the market may not have been that bad a thing.
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What's the rationale in forcing a phase out of carburetors?
Why would you ever require linked brakes?
What does learner legal mean?
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What's the rationale in forcing a phase out of carburetors?
Why would you ever require linked brakes?
What does learner legal mean?
Carburetors are most likely an emissions issue.
Requiring linked brakes shows that the Eurocrats are suffering from industrial strength stupidity and know nothing about motorcycles/scooters.
Learner legal has to do with tiered licensing.
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What's the rationale in forcing a phase out of carburetors?
Why would you ever require linked brakes?
What does learner legal mean?
I don’t believe they actually forced out carburetors. But they set emissions standards. And it was simply impossible or very difficult to meet those standards using a carburetor , especially if they want to have good performance AND low emissions.
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Those that love to tinker love carbs. Fair enough.
But I've been loving every iteration of fuel injection since I went from my new '73 Super Beetle to my new Rabbit 41 years ago! (VW sold the engines to Chrysler to get them in the small hatch back business quickly - but theirs were carbed)
EFI is a deal-breaker selling point for me in a scooter.....now I've added aircooling. Without both- I'm walking.
Stig
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Do carburetors produce more non-CO2 emissions? I tried to google the matter, but had trouble finding anything relevant.
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Those that love to tinker love carbs. Fair enough.
But I've been loving every iteration of fuel injection since I went from my new '73 Super Beetle to my new Rabbit 41 years ago! (VW sold the engines to Chrysler to get them in the small hatch back business quickly - but theirs were carbed)
EFI is a deal-breaker selling point for me in a scooter.....now I've added aircooling. Without both- I'm walking.
Stig
People always resist change until the change becomes commonplace. (I notice that no one on here is lamenting the absence of points. [emoji28]) Then they wonder how they did without it. I remember back in the late 70’s People would convert their electronic ignition vehicles to points. By the late 80’s , people were converting their old points equipped cars to electronic ignition.
Likewise, I remember my dad (born in 1928 ) hating fuel injection. But by the early to mid 1990’s he commented “I don’t even want to LOOK at a carburetor†because they were temperamental whereas fuel injection was reliable and was actually easier to repair once you learned how it worked . Of course he was proud of the fact that he KNEW how to fix a carburetor. Likewise, I like the fact that I CAN replace points, adjust a carburetor, set timing, etc. But that’s just as a novelty and a every once in a while thing. In truth, I prefer driving something that cranks the FIRST time every time, and works well without constant tinkering. Having said all that, the average fuel injected scooter or car runs MANY reliable miles without tampering. As far as the engine goes, Just use clean fuel , change the filters, change the oil , adjust the valves (scooters) and ride out.
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Carburetors are most likely an emissions issue.
Requiring linked brakes shows that the Eurocrats are suffering from industrial strength stupidity and know nothing about motorcycles/scooters.
Learner legal has to do with tiered licensing.
This is essentially correct. Linked brakes means that applying the front brake also applies 1/2 force on the rear. Or is it vice versa? Whatever it is, it's bizarre.
In the EU you can ride something up to 125cc on a provisional license, as a learner.
Fuel injection on bikes has been wonderful. Now even the crummiest bikes have Delphi or Bosch fuel injection instead of some random brand carburettor. I am a big fan. Our emissions laws are really, really stringent. It does tend to cajole the manufacturers to chase progress, so I think I'm a fan.
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This is essentially correct. Linked brakes means that applying the front brake also applies 1/2 force on the rear. Or is it vice versa? Whatever it is, it's bizarre.
In most cases linked brakes means applying rear brake also gives you some front brake. How much front brake? It varies. Good luck trying to figure it out. On some bikes (BMW, DUCATI), it's reversed and applying front brakes gives you some rear brake. Some older Hondas had systems where the brakes were linked both ways. On Harley's linked brakes they are not linked if you apply the Brakes below 25 MPH. Some manufacturers call it linked brakes, some call it combined braking systems ::). I'll bet most owners of bikes with linked brakes don't understand how they work.
For riders who don't understand how to use their brakes properly, linked brakes will probably help them in most circumstances. For riders who do, most linked systems suck.
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Trying to 'idiot proof' everything just keeps people in government busy and has little to do with safety. Manufacturers 'going along' with proposed rule-making are just sucking up to the bureaucracy and it's denizens. Like interconnected controls in Pipers and the 'spin-proof' Ercoupe trained people out of coordinated flight and removed the benefits of cross-controlling to advantage.
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Anyway, I feel we've put the imposition of ABS onto you into perspective :)
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Trying to 'idiot proof' everything just keeps people in government busy and has little to do with safety.
In some cases it may be unnecessary “idiot proofing†. But in other cases, it’s making things more tolerant of human error which Even the best of us are capable of at times. In cars for example, I remember when even a minor head on collision was guaranteed to result in serious injury or death for the driver due to being impaled by the steering column. But cars are now required to have collapsible steering columns which greatly reduced those deaths. I’m and thousands of others are thankful for that government intrusion. The idiot may be the one who crossed into my lane. Or it could be me. Again we don’t realize we need some things until we need them. Just another perspective...
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You make very good, valid points, Forbes, as always. The element in the GM collapsible steering column was used in helo seats in Vietnam to minimize back injuries in "hard landings" usually associated with crashes...I welcome ABS for road bikes, front only or both wheels. I DO NOT want the brakes interconnected in any way. I don't even like the lights coming on when the ignition gets turned on. I really HATE the GM daylight running light system. I love inertia shoulder belts. They can be tested to make sure they work by yanking on 'em! Those belts that are always loose that only lockup when you slam on brakes suck.
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You make very good, valid points, Forbes, as always. The element in the GM collapsible steering column was used in helo seats in Vietnam to minimize back injuries in "hard landings" usually associated with crashes...I welcome ABS for road bikes, front only or both wheels. I DO NOT want the brakes interconnected in any way. I don't even like the lights coming on when the ignition gets turned on. I really HATE the GM daylight running light system. I love inertia shoulder belts. They can be tested to make sure they work by yanking on 'em! Those belts that are always loose that only lockup when you slam on brakes suck.
I’m with you on the linked brakes. My driveway is hilly and clay/gravel. And I remember being super nervous and being careful to not hit the back brakes hard enough to engage the fronts. At low speeds I didn’t mind the back doing their thing because I could react quickly enough. But if the front did ANYTHING strange, it was another thing. But in cases where strong front braking was needed. I had no problem engaging them. As for running lights, I actually used our Ford diagnostic computer to turn mine and my sister’s on because they Weren’t set that way from the factory for USA cars. But I confess. It was to make them “idiot proof†just in case I forgot to turn them on in fog so I could be seen . Even we so called conscientious drivers can be idiots in some areas. I simply wish they could be disabled by the driver temporarily even if they default to on like the traction or stability control in many cars. I like being able to do donuts in an empty parking lot . Lol. But I also like the safety of being able to safely swerve around the idiot who decided stop in the road on a blind curve.
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ABS has not been mandated in the US. At this time, it's only a recommendation by the NHTSA Council. The recommendation may get trumped, so to speak
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ABS has not been mandated in the US. At this time, it's only a recommendation by the NHTSA Council. The recommendation may get trumped, so to speak
For the good or for the bad, I don’t think we’ll be getting any new regulations anytime soon. Lol.
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Do carburetors produce more non-CO2 emissions? I tried to google the matter, but had trouble finding anything relevant.
A carbureted engine produces more of nearly EVERY pollutant than the same engine with fuel injection. To make it emissions compliant usually decreases power AND drivability significantly. Much more than it does in a fuel injected engine. As evidence, one only has to recall how temperamental and low on power cars were from the seventies until the widespread adoption of fuel injection in the late 1980s. With small engines such as scooters, with FEW exceptions the improvement in drivability, performance (especially cold weather), and even reliability, has been just as dramatic.
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