KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: AKL_HBG on June 06, 2018, 11:18:32 AM
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What type of performance gain will I get if I install a performance/racing variation kit to my Super8 50x? Top speed or acceleration gains?
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How much gain are you looking for?
Typically, performance variators alter the acceleration while possibly adding a smidge more top speed by playing with how engine power gets to the rear wheel. If you're already very happy with your bike, a variator upgrade may help. If you want to get into roller weight tuning, I recommend a tachometer.
However, if you need more performance I recommend looking into a bigger bike.
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I already installed 5.5 gram roller weights. I am very UNHAPPY with it's performance so I'm trying my best to see if I can get about 5 MPH more top end speed. Right now according to my dealer it is fully derestricted and I only get a top end of 34 MPH (GPS) on a flat road without any wind.
I'm thinking I might have to just go with a 80cc BBK.....Thanks
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We did have a LIKE 50 owner who did a bunch of mods and claimed 60+mph, until he crashed.
He was forced to stay with a 50cc scooter.
Obviously the most reliable way to obtain more speed is to buy a 110 or more, scooter. Perhaps it might even make good $$ sense in the long run?
But, you know your situation - seems most 50 owners here have hard reasons for buying one... and then of course they want more speed from that 50.
And there are plenty of sellers who want to sell you their "racing" bits & bobs & pipes.
You should get a lot of 50cc help here. More speed is a very common theme from 50 owners.
Stig
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Thanks Stig!
I just want to keep my 50cc and stay with my regular operators license here in PA. That's why I don't want to have to get a MC endorsement. Here in Harrisburg PennDOT is a pain in the rear since it is located just outside of the city and is always mobbed with people.
If I can get 5 more MPH and cruise around 40 mph is all I am trying to achieve.....Thanks again!
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Out of curiosity, how fast can you go downhill full throttle?
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On a steep downhill I can hit 41 MPH (GPS) and on a steephill uphill I hit an amazing 10-15 MPH LOL!!! =) The acceleration is absurd at best....
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This may be apples and oranges, but I put a kevlar belt, a Malossi high-speed variator, and Dr. Pulley sliders in my 49cc Honda Ruckus. Top speed went from 38 to 43 mph, it ran smoother, and acceleration improved too.
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Maybe look into a BRC class. If you pass on a motorcycle (which they provide you get your MC endorsement, but a discount on your insurance as well. It may be easier than taking the trip to a DMV and waiting in their lines.
- Wolf
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I have a performance variator on the way. If this gives me 5 more mph I will be very happy.....I also found out that there might not be a BBK available for my Kymco engine. :(
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You do have to remember that by riding without a motorcycle endorsement in your state that you can be ticketed if your scoot is derestricted and can go 40mph. The police don't usually bust people for this but they can!
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Yes. I am aware of that fact. =) Thanks..
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Yeah, I used to hit the high beam indicator on my Honda Metropolitan with a nice downhill. I figure that was 50 mph. On level ground, it was more like 46 mph. However, that was a liquid cooled machine that probably made more power than most 50 cc 4T engines, coupled to a Polini variator with a taller top ratio. I usually rode WOT, and I probably got a few cops scratching their heads at the silent stock yet cute scooter blowing by rather quickly.
I also demoed a Kymco Agility City 50 4T with the overkill 16" wheels for my friend post-derestriction for Canada because I weigh next to nothing. I got about 40 mph. I have no idea how your Super 8X 50 4T motor relates to said Agility City though or what its jetting looks like.
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The worst thing for me is the acceleration because it's no slow it's dangerous trying to pull into traffic and across intersections.
Beause of that I was looking for a BBK for my scooter. I was told that this engine (KG10T) is made solely by Kymco, and that there are no after market BBKs that are compatible?
Can anyone verify that this is correct??
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This seems strange to me - because all scoots, even the smallest, are designed to have great acceleration for the first 100 feet or so! They all can blast away from the light in Asia! It is a given.
But you are lightweight and still are not finding that initial acceleration?
Lack of top speed is a common complaint of 50cc riders - but that off the line acceleration should always be available if the drive train is stock & healthy. ??
Stig
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Not sure what to tell you Stig. But the acceleration from a dead stop is slow. Takes me forever to get to 30 MPH. This scooter has about 150 miles on it so it is basically brand new. I only weigh around 175 lbs so I'm a relatively light rider.
I also have a 2013 ice bear PMZ50 scooter and it will run circles around my Kymco. That's why I am very disappointed..... Thanks
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Any scooter enthusiasts in your area that can take a look at your scooter? Just doesn't sound right.
I used to beat cars off the line in my Honda Metropolitan if I had my timing down. Every stop light was an opportunity. Makes me wonder if the cable throttle has a restrictor by the carburetor or something. Sometimes there's a screw that restricts maximum throttle opening.
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150 miles!?
Our you still under warranty?
I'd take it back and have them ride it.
Stig
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Yes. It is still under warranty. The dealer basically washed his hands with me and said that there is nothing much more he can do for me because he already derestricted it. I had him take it back once already because it ran terrible with the new unrestricted CDI. He then returned it to me and it runs good, but it still lacks power like I mentioned. I also checked the CDI after he returned it and saw that it was the original Kymco OEM CDI. I contacted him and he admitted that he reinstalled the OEM Kymco CDI because it ran better with it?? But never told me??
Now today I installed a polini variator and new sliders and tried to install a performance clutch. The variator went smoothly but then I stripped the nut while trying to put it back on the clutch bell!!! I'm a novice for sure, but did hand tighten the nut before using the impact wrench.
Now I have no idea what to do. I will contact my dealer but I'm sure he will not be much help. I'm assuming I will have to cut the nut off somehow??? I should say not I, but a mechanic.....Happy Father's Day to me!!!
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Did you destroy the nut only, or did you cream the threads too?
The former is no big deal. The nut can be cracked or carefully destroyed and replaced. The threads underneath on the other hand can be gnarlier to rectify, but at least we're not dealing with the crankshaft pulley!
What did you set the impact wrench to, and did you use the right sized impact socket (assuming 17 or 19 mm)? Usually the clutch bell is usually easy to tighten. Have an assistant squeeze the rear brake lever while you torque it to the requisite 80 ft-lbs (consult service manual) or so.
edit: If the nut is securely on there, just leave it be until you need to remove the clutch bell.
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Hi Ophelia,
I think I just destroyed the nut. I'm not sure if I ruined the threads underneath until I get the nut off and check.
I used an electric impact wrench that I purchased just to work on the scooter. I made sure I had the right socket and hand tightened the screw before I used the impact wrench. I had trouble getting the kevlar belt to seat right so I tried to remove the nut and that's when it stripped.
I just ordered two special sockets to try to get this nut off.
I appreciate the help Ophelia. Have a good day! Thanks!
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I've slept on the issue a little. I'm surprised how rounded that nut became. The only time I've done that is when I've tried to put a nut back on a long stud, but my socket was too short to have strong contact down the entire height of the nut. The socket then shears off the top edges of the nut as it glides over without biting.
Your socket may be the right diameter, but was your socket too short? They sell impact sockets in deep and short.
Your picture is pretty fuzzy, but if the nut still has decent edges down to the bottom, zapping it with the electric impact and a deep socket may just fix your issue. Nut may just come right out. Then you can get a new replacement nut.
In the future, if you squeeze the driven pulley and push the contra spring down to make room for the belt, you can leave the clutch nut on. Usually contra springs on 50 cc aren't terribly difficult to compress by hand. Other times, I slowly spin the belt as I slide it over the variator boss on the crankshaft driving side. It's definitely easier than trying to press a tight belt onto the shaft. Tips for the next time you're in there.
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The socket was definitely long enough to cover the entire nut. Just not sure what happened because I test fitted the nut twice before I tried to remove it with the impact wrench.
Like a true novice I purchased a new performance clutch (which has 2K springs) thinking it would help. I did try to squeeze the driven pulley and contra spring together to get more room/extension to get the belt on, but I couldn't budge that thing! That's why I tried to remove the clutch nut again to get the belt on correctly and subsequently stripped the nut. I had no problem squeezing the original clutch to get the belt on before. This new performance clutch with a 2K contra spring was crazy stiff!
I've since read some forums on 2K contra springs and know think it was a bad decision....lesson learned.
Thanks again!
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You're using metric sockets? If you're one size too large, it might tighten down fine by hand but round off the nut when you go to torque it down.
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Things will get confusing if we advise someone not to use a metric socket on a metric bolt!
In future, please do not use impact wrench/gun to install a nut on a scooter. Use to remove nuts only. Hand tighten or use reliable torque wrench.
Use scooter CVT "holding tool" on the clutch ( ebay, @$12) and remove nut with your special strpped/rounded nut tool...or large channel lock pliers. Buy new nut, @$2.50.
Good luck and please keep us posted.
Stig
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Oh, I wasn't telling them not to use metric. I was thinking that maybe if they were using standard sockets, that could possibly explain why the nut got rounded.
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Well, I think that is where I made my mistake. My new impact wrench did not come with metric sockets, so I used the closest one. I used the impact wrench before on these nuts and didn't have a problem. I guess I need to get metric sockets now.
I purchased a holding tool before so I have that and am waiting on the special removal socket and new nut to replace the one that I destroyed.
Thanks all....
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and one other thing have 6 point sockets not 12 point, hex 6 sides same as the nut
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Good call. I gave away all my 12-point sockets. I can't think of a single instance where a 12-point socket became useful, while the risk for rounding off a fastener goes up greatly. Where a 12-point socket possibly might have made sense, a ratchet head rendered that moot.
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you can get a socket to remove rounded nuts, look in harbor freight, and they work well with impack guns
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de dee and ophelia.....Thanks!
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Update: I ordered a extractor socket on Amazon and it worked. Although I had to hammer the socket onto the nut to securely fasten it until I removed it with the impact drill. (I tried it with a torch wrench first, but no luck)
Now I reassembled the scooter with the new polini variator (w 5 gram sliders) and Kevlar belt. Still the take off from a dead stop and hill climbs are VERY poor. It takes me forever to accelerate up to 15 MPH.
Would putting on a pod filter or messing with the air intake help with acceleration??
THANKS!
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I don't have any experience with 50cc scooters. But based on some of the responses as well as your comparison to your other 50cc scooter, I'm suspicious that something is wrong.
I would start troubleshooting or looking for restrictions (did you check for the throttle restriction that ophelia suggested could be there?) rather than throwing performance parts at it. Especially something that would change the air/fuel ratio and require additional tuning.
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According to my dealer all restrictions have been removed. The throttle seems fine and responds well once I accelerate above 15-20 MPH. I will check the throttle cable at the handle and carb and see....
Thanks..
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What Stig says about the holding tool is the best advice on this thread. 6 point sockets are a must and 12 points should be actually banned from this world.
Make sure you use the holding tool on a solid surface as it will dig into the grass. Its tricky to use. A big pair of vice grips should do it if you can stop the rotation properly. I would suggest a nut splitter but it could also damage the threads. You did put a tiny bit of grease on the threads so it can be properly torqued and easier to take back off ?
Also people that have installed upgraded variators also are posting about their shredded belts and the is no clear advice on using you stock boss or the boss that came with the variator.
Kymco new scooters (they have done away with the 2 strokes) are not highly regarded for speed and I would not buy one for that reason. You need an expert with all sorts of sources of aftermarket performance parts and knowledge to derestrict one. Kymco is really tightening the screws now on the ability to derestrict. Your dealer did what it could but has other scooters to care for and probably doesnt have to knowledge or resources to derestrict your scooter properly. You dealer is a Kymco dealer but doesn't specialize on just Kymco bikes and new models will throw them for a loop.
I cant say it is what it is but you need a person of higher knowledge, time, and resources to derestrict these new kymco 4 stroke scooters or to get in touch with another who has one and you can follow what he or she has done.
Juts realize by increasing RPMs and making the scooter go faster, you are increasing the stress of the internal engine components that they may not be designed to handle and can shorten their life. I just found this out after having a wrist pin bearing and clip failure after 8k miles. But that was a hard 8k I put on my bike in 4 years and cant fault Kymco and actually should praise the fact I got 8k mostly full throttle miles off the bike. I may detune it and throw in heavier sliders now that I have it back up and running.
My CV mods were new DR Pulley sliders and purple Malossi torque spring with a torsion controller and that was it and all I knew that would give better performance.
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Would putting on a pod filter or messing with the air intake help with acceleration??
Maybe, but not going to be the mega increase you are hoping for. Tuned right, it could help you with top speed and acceleration slightly if you've geared the bike to run at power peak rpm.
With no tuning, you probably make it harder to idle when the weather is cold. It's potentially harder to set a carburetor mixture too once you huck the stock airbox. Usually the engineers calibrate the intake and the carburetor for a certain amount of tumble and turbulence to help atomize the fuel during cold starts, idling, and low speed pickup. For the size of engine, the stock intake likely allows enough airflow to meet maximum power and usable range.
In the wet, you may even pick up too much water in your carburetor. We had to pull over once so our Ruckus ride leader could empty out his carburetor float bowl of excess water. You don't want to be that guy. :)
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Let us know how you get on with the variator. It doesn't sound like it's working as well as it should. I used to get a consistent 40mph on the flat from an aged GY6 Chinese scooter.
Rather than performance parts, I'd focus your initial efforts on getting the right rollers. It can make an enormous difference! I changed mine this morning and I've blown myself away...