KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: kneeslider on May 24, 2018, 01:33:40 AM
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Morning all,
Something I recently noticed but never took the effort to look or trouble shoot it.
I live in Malaysia, tropical country, where in the morning it may be 20deg C. So not exactly cold mornings for most of you all.
Anyways, my DT200 starts up fine, it's when I ride off and before the oil temp indicator displays the normal operating temperature of double bars.
During that short interim time, the scooter would feel lethargic, inputs to the throttle would seem laggy. Today I tried a WOT just to see what would happen as I cruised along at 60km/h. It just choked and coughed. The situation improves as she gets warmer and return to normal at normal operating temperatures.
I never noticed this before till probably about 6 months ago.
Mileage is now almost 68,000kms. It's a 2013 Downtown 200i.
And clues what's happening or is she just getting old?
Thanks in advance.
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I've had similar problems, but not coughs and chokes at high speeds. I have a DT300i. I've come to the conclusion that she's not a cold weather girl. Check your oil brand/type. It may not be a cold weather oil. that seemed to be part of my problem.
- Wolf
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Do you think the auto choke isn't functioning?
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200 or 200i? Carb or EFI?
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200i fuel injected.
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Now wait a minute! I am certainly not the cold weather expert here with De dee and Stig riding in frigid weather regularly but cold starting problems seem to plague only the 500's. The DT & GT 300i, the Like and the Yager all were generally ALL WEATHER starter-runners. Sumpthin' must be wrong.
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So, starts well, and runs fine after it is warmed up?
- it starts and runs fine at all speeds when the engine is hot?
Can you source a service manual for your scooter - specifically one with a "trouble shooting" section.
With an EFI engine there are a number of sensors which feed in info in order to operate properly - one could be causing this symptom. (I'm thinking temp sensor is faulty.)
It is not a young scooter - so a service manual to trouble shoot would be very helpful.
You have a Downtown 200i - is it the 163cc '200i' ? or a different engine?
Stig
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One possibility is that it's correcting a bad air/fuel ratio once the O2 sensors are hot enough to run.
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This could be an actually bad air/fuel ratio, for instance with a vacuum leak or injector leak. Or it could be a air/fuel ratio that was erroneously calculated, if one of the sensors was bad.
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So, starts well, and runs fine after it is warmed up?
- it starts and runs fine at all speeds when the engine is hot?
Can you source a service manual for your scooter - specifically one with a "trouble shooting" section.
With an EFI engine there are a number of sensors which feed in info in order to operate properly - one could be causing this symptom. (I'm thinking temp sensor is faulty.)
It is not a young scooter - so a service manual to trouble shoot would be very helpful.
You have a Downtown 200i - is it the 163cc '200i' ? or a different engine?
Stig
Yes to both Stig.
I do have the serive manual, will look at the trouble shooting section. Totally slipped my mind. RTFM right?
Mine is the one with the 205cc engine.
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This could be an actually bad air/fuel ratio, for instance with a vacuum leak or injector leak. Or it could be a air/fuel ratio that was erroneously calculated, if one of the sensors was bad.
Biggest culprit would be the O2 sensor?
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Nope, the O2 sensor would be working correctly in this scenario.
Here's a brief explanation:
EFI engines have a computer that calculates how much fuel to inject based on its sensor data. When the engine is cold, all it can do is assume it's doing a good job making the correct air/fuel ratio.
The O2 sensors are there to check the computer's work. But they can't do that until they're hot. Once the O2 sensors are hot enough to work, the computer stops assuming it's doing a good job, and starts adjusting how much fuel it adds based on what the O2 sensor is telling it.
So the fact that the engine runs better hot suggests the computer is doing a better job when the O2 sensors kick in. This could be because of a defective sensor, messing up its calculations. Or extra air or fuel are entering the system where its not supposed to.
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Well, actually in the Kymco EFI systems, there is a heater in the O2 sensor. The sensor has 4 wires to it and not just two. The heater is for the start from cold phase of operation.
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Whoops!
Okay, so assuming the heater is working it'll probably have something to do with a heat-sensitive component.
Besides Stig's suggestion for the temperature sensor (or some other sensor), maybe the compression is improving as it warms up.
Something that I think was missed is this isn't remotely a cold weather problem -- 20 C is 68 F.
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If it is a bad sensor causing it to miscalculate things, you should be able to see this in the O2 sensor and fuel trim data. I have no idea how accessible these are though.
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Kymco analyzer tool will show these parameters. The heat should cycle on and off. I don'T know what the O2 sensor should do but it should have a varying voltage output .5 to 1.5 volts, I think....
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Would the heating element not working be the cause of the issue here? That's how I would think
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It would explain why it runs better once its warmed up, but indicate that something else is wrong.
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I think the first and easiest thing to do would be to measure the resistance of the coolant sensor terminals with the engine cold. The manual says at 40 degrees C it should be 1.136 Kohms. If the resistance lower than that, you know that's a problem.
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On second thought, what do you want to bet that the engine temperature in the dash doesn't get its information from the same sensor? Since it's not reading abnormally, that would suggest the sensor isn't the problem.
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Balls, I am further lost than where I started.
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Two coolant sensors: 1. In radiator header tank to turn fan on & off, 2. One on engine. The sensor on the engine provides output to both the panel gauge and the ECU. It would seem logical to me if the panel display is working properly then the sensor is OK. That would leave the heater in the O2 sensor being open. What is the resistance on that thing for hot and cold? Anybody?
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68 thousand klicks
Valves checked since troubles started 6 months ago?
Stig
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68 thousand klicks
Valves checked since troubles started 6 moths ago?
Stig
Valves never been checked.
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valves adjustments should be checked as a starting point
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valves adjustments should be checked as a starting point
er, okay but how does that relate to the symptoms that I am experiencing?
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They can affect starting and cold running, although more often they have symptoms the other way around - difficulty starting a warm engine and problems with hot running.
It's a free thing to check - I always start with the free stuff :)
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They can affect starting and cold running, although more often they have symptoms the other way around - difficulty starting a warm engine and problems with hot running.
It's a free thing to check - I always start with the free stuff :)
Not for me, it's something I don't know how to do myself.
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Not for me, it's something I don't know how to do myself.
In which case, ignore me :D
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In which case, ignore me :D
Nah, that would just be rude.
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Finally got it to the workshop.
Got the throttle body cleaned and timing adjusted.
Yes, it was out.
Since my last post, it was notably getting worse.
Now she feeling smooth again.
1) less vibration at idle
2) at idle, no more is she hunting up and down the revs
3) starts up easier
4) more power in the rev range
Will try her out when it's cold tomorrow. Fingers crossed.
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Good news, and good for you!
Still having trouble getting my mind around "cold" mornings in Malaysia! 😊
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Cold here would be low 20d C.
Good news, and good for you!
Still having trouble getting my mind around "cold" mornings in Malaysia! [emoji4]
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Great news - glad the bike is doing well.
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Hello!
I have a DT 200i and have similar problems to yours. I live in Singapore so similar weather condition to Malaysia (hello neighbour!).
In the morning, and only the morning, I start bike for first time. Starts perfectly and sets into normal idle, no issues. I ride it out on my condo basement car park and towards the condo gantry, max maybe 70-100meters. All good. When approaching gantry I start to coast for the first time and approach a stop for the first time at which point the engine would normally go back to its 1500rpm idle. However it doesn't, it goes down to 1000rpm and struggles occasionally just cutting out as the idle cannot sustain (sometimes it just manages to hang on and goes up to 1500rpm. Problem doesn't;t happen again). If it cuts out, restarting the bike is then difficult, cranking for 3-5 seconds to get it going, sometimes blipping the throttle to help it. I ride on and the problem never happens again (so I assume the engine warmed up ever so slightly resolving it??).
I read your posts and it sounds similar. Can you confirm what the issue was? My bike is 2015 DT200i. Only 19400km on clock. Well serviced. I just replaced air filter, oil filter, oil, spark plug, transmission oil, and that has not solved anything. I tried the TPS reset procedure many times, doesn't make a difference. I wonder if it is a sensor given that it only happens when cold and after a very brief period it never happens again (so warmed up). But frankly don't know.
Thanks for any comments!
Richard
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Welcome Richard. Noticed it's your first post in here.
Singapore has the DT200? I thought you guys only had the 300.
Anyways straight to your issue, have you noticed it's running slightly worse than before?
As per my post, I had the tappets checked and adjusted. My DT has loads of miles on it, so it was way overdue on my scooter, but I believe at almost 20,000kms, you should also have your tappets checked and adjusted. While you're in there have the workshop clean the throttle bodies.
Good Luck! Let us know how it goes.
Hello!
I have a DT 200i and have similar problems to yours. I live in Singapore so similar weather condition to Malaysia (hello neighbour!).
In the morning, and only the morning, I start bike for first time. Starts perfectly and sets into normal idle, no issues. I ride it out on my condo basement car park and towards the condo gantry, max maybe 70-100meters. All good. When approaching gantry I start to coast for the first time and approach a stop for the first time at which point the engine would normally go back to its 1500rpm idle. However it doesn't, it goes down to 1000rpm and struggles occasionally just cutting out as the idle cannot sustain (sometimes it just manages to hang on and goes up to 1500rpm. Problem doesn't;t happen again). If it cuts out, restarting the bike is then difficult, cranking for 3-5 seconds to get it going, sometimes blipping the throttle to help it. I ride on and the problem never happens again (so I assume the engine warmed up ever so slightly resolving it??).
I read your posts and it sounds similar. Can you confirm what the issue was? My bike is 2015 DT200i. Only 19400km on clock. Well serviced. I just replaced air filter, oil filter, oil, spark plug, transmission oil, and that has not solved anything. I tried the TPS reset procedure many times, doesn't make a difference. I wonder if it is a sensor given that it only happens when cold and after a very brief period it never happens again (so warmed up). But frankly don't know.
Thanks for any comments!
Richard
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Thanks Kneeslider.
Yeah, we have the 200i here. My choose was between that and the Burgman when buying :)
The engine doesn't run badly at all. No issues with power or strange behaviour. The only strange thing in the morning is as I described, at it only happens at that occasion. Even the first 70-100m driving before I get to the gantry the bike behaves as normal and perfectly. I cannot imagine 20k the tappets need adjusting... and there are no symptoms to suggest that other than the one cut out... I think. But I can ask the workshop also what they think about the tappets?
For cleaning the throttle body was that pricy? Ultimately I prefer the engine parts not to be dismantled, especially if this is not clearly identified as the root cause. But I can only imagine it is sensor related or maybe the same as you've experienced and highlighted..... Really wish there was a way to identify?
Thanks so much for the reply, really appreciate your time!
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Hi Richard,
How long have you been suffering from this?
For me, when it first started to happen, the scooter ran like normal, but that slowly deteriorated as the days went by. As for the solution to my problem, adjustment of the tappets and cleaning of the throttle bodies worked. Also the cleaning of the throttle bodies is cheap!
Pulling the scooter apart is part of the maintenance process. Don't worry too much on it, providing you have a good mechanic that knows what he is doing.
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ok. will speak with mechanic. first started a couple of weeks ago. That triggered me to get service done, which was due at 20,00km anyhow. Has the performance of my bike deteriorated since? Not really, just the issue continues to happen.
Will grieve bike in and then see.
Thanks!
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Hi Richard,
Based on the owner's manual, the recommended schedule to adjust/check the valve clearances is every 10,000kms.
Perhaps you can have your mechanic to look into that for you.
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Hi everyone, first post on here and not sure if it's good etiquette to dig up an old thread from 2018.
I'm in sunny Singapore as well and just got myself a used DT200i from 2012. Has 101000kms on the clock, don't intend to do too much to the bike.
I have the exact same issues as Richard where the bike would just cut out completely when coasting/braking after the first X amount of meters. Can be anywhere from 5-15m it doesn't matter, still does it anyway.
Runs perfectly fine the rest of the day with no weird noises... Has any of you Richard or OP got this issue resolved?
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Hi everyone, first post on here and not sure if it's good etiquette to dig up an old thread from 2018.
I'm in sunny Singapore as well and just got myself a used DT200i from 2012. Has 101000kms on the clock, don't intend to do too much to the bike.
I have the exact same issues as Richard where the bike would just cut out completely when coasting/braking after the first X amount of meters. Can be anywhere from 5-15m it doesn't matter, still does it anyway.
Runs perfectly fine the rest of the day with no weird noises... Has any of you Richard or OP got this issue resolved?
Only partly serious here....and welcome to the forum!...:
A nine year old scooter (don't know what that would be in people years) which has survived the conditions in Singapore - with over 100,000 km's on it - and still runs perfectly after a little bit of a stumble off the front porch ??!!
I'd say....give a nice new filter and some good oil, and a hug.
YOU should be so reliable at that age!
Stig
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Only partly serious here....and welcome to the forum!...:
A nine year old scooter (don't know what that would be in people years) which has survived the conditions in Singapore - with over 100,000 km's on it - and still runs perfectly after a little bit of a stumble off the front porch ??!!
I'd say....give a nice new filter and some good oil, and a hug.
YOU should be so reliable at that age!
Stig
Hey Stig, thank you!
The bike has been regularly serviced by the only Kymco distributor here in Singapore so that might explain why-ish? It's not that big of a problem for me, just hoping it doesn't manifest into some crazy issue later on. Only intend to ride it for a couple of months before upgrading :)
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Just an update, workshop recommended a valve clearance, mechanic suggested valves too tight, hence the bike dying off in the mornings and works fine the rest of the day.
Will update after my valve clearance tomorrow.
In the meantime, I need to get the steering bearings replaced :(
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Just an update, workshop recommended a valve clearance, mechanic suggested valves too tight, hence the bike dying off in the mornings and works fine the rest of the day.
Will update after my valve clearance tomorrow.
In the meantime, I need to get the steering bearings replaced :(
Does removing gas cap solve your dying problem? (That is my favorite thing to harp about!)
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Does removing gas cap solve your dying problem? (That is my favorite thing to harp about!)
Unfortunately not, I avoid overfilling after reading up about it here these days hahaha.
Also, would like to update that after the valve clearance, the bike works perfectly now :)
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I am not arguing! But please, someone! Explain how tight valves cause a problem in the morning but then runs fine all day.
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I am not arguing! But please, someone! Explain how tight valves cause a problem in the morning but then runs fine all day.
I'm no mechanic Karl and if you don't know the answer then I hesitate to offer this thought, but; could it be to do with engine heat? i.e. once up to temperature the valve metal expands to a slightly wider gap allowing it to run without dying?
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I'm no mechanic Karl and if you don't know the answer then I hesitate to offer this thought, but; could it be to do with engine heat? i.e. once up to temperature the valve metal expands to a slightly wider gap allowing it to run without dying?
Usually does not work that way. The long valve stems usually "grow" faster than everything else and close the gap even more. Given Honda elegant technology, it is probably reversed here!
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D'accord with @CROSSBOLT,
valves are usually adjusted at "cold" (under 20°C) motor temperature, warm up after start and stop chattering by expanding. Then they fit smoothly and without gap onto your cams, valve-seats, etc.
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I have heard that hard (morning) starts can be an indication of valves needing adjustment. Always assumed this meant the scooter would eventually start and run for the day. ....otherwise it would be a "won't start" situation, not a hard start.
Which part is getting warmer and or growing/tightening . ..is beyond my pay grade 😊
Stig
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Usually does not work that way. The long valve stems usually "grow" faster than everything else and close the gap even more. Given Honda elegant technology, it is probably reversed here!
See, I knew I should’ve kept my thoughts to myself! 😂. Thanks for the insight Karl.
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Yea, pretty interesting... no idea why. All the mechanics pointed towards the tappet being too tight, runs like a dream, it doesnt even need to be 'warmed' up now, I can just start the bike and move off just fine.
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Yea, pretty interesting... no idea why. All the mechanics pointed towards the tappet being too tight, runs like a dream, it doesnt even need to be 'warmed' up now, I can just start the bike and move off just fine.
That is a good description of exactly how this model (and its relatives) and the Yager works. The Like 200i as well. Hot, cold and in between.
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That is a good description of exactly how this model (and its relatives) and the Yager works. The Like 200i as well. Hot, cold and in between.
My Piaggio B V 350 came with a Cal. grade EVAP system. and something pluged and it cruched the gas tank down to a 8 Lt. from a 12.5 Lt. tank it is a plastic tank,.