KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: DrSwammelstam on May 01, 2018, 07:22:54 PM
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Hi,
Just found the forum searching for info regarding possible restrictions/de-restriction on my kymco 16+ 50i scooter. Well, I've found nothing yet on the 16+and the closest I came was sento 50i on this forum. So, the question is if any of you guys know anything? The problem is that my Agility City 16+ 50i, european version, 45 km/h moped only achieves 41-42 km/h on flats, 45km/h downhill and drops down to 30-35km/h in moderate climbs. Acceleration is also bad compared to my old 4-stroke agility city.
Some basic info from observations on my own moped:
1. The variator "boss" thingy is not restricted (at least compared to how it looked on my old agility city). The variator weights could be something to look closer into though.
2. There is a fixed throttle-stopper, casted into the intake/throttle housing, so eliminating that would require bigger tools and some creativity.
3. It appears there is no cdi unit like the in my 4-stroke agility city.
4. By the battery there is a bigger connector together with some other wiring, I guess this is for diagnostics and possibly software tuning (my only hope at the moment).
Any suggestions or do I just have to accept seemingly poor performance?
/Henrik
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Based on your 4-stroke Agility City riding experience, why did you not select a scooter that was compatible with your speed expectations?
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Yeah, that is the plug-in for the Kymco diagnostic tool. It could tell the mechanic if things are seriously astray from the norms.
Not sure how much "tuning" you could do with it plugged in.
But it could tell you what needs to be put right....if anything is wrong.
www.cyclepedia.com (http://www.cyclepedia.com) sells scooter and motorcycle service manuals......with a trouble shooting section for things like, "lack of power".
If you plan to keep the scooter ....one of these manuals might be a good investment.
Also, a chat with the service or parts desk at your Kymco dealer might give you something to go on. You might find out that your speeds are normal for this scooter.
Stig
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So is it a 4T FI 50?
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Based on your 4-stroke Agility City riding experience, why did you not select a scooter that was compatible with your speed expectations?
Well, I expected a 45km/h scooter to do at least 45, most do that and a little bit more, not less. I wasn't expecting 65km/h.
Yeah, that is the plug-in for the Kymco diagnostic tool. It could tell the mechanic if things are seriously astray from the norms.
Not sure how much "tuning" you could do with it plugged in.
But it could tell you what needs to be put right....if anything is wrong.
Stig
Yep, I thought that would be the next step.
So is it a 4T FI 50?
Yes!
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I know this won't be the news you want, but I think you're going to be very limited on options.
45km/h is the speed limit for 50ccs in the EU.
Have you thought about putting some Dr. Pulley (or similar) slider weights in the variator? Hopefully this would give you more usable gearing :)
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I'm going to add this to the conversation. I have ride my scooter (Agility 50) at 45 Km/H downhill on some occasions. I will tell you that is not safe at all. The scooter is stable at that speed but you can tell that if it goes faster you won't feel safe the same way that you will with a bigger bike. That top speed is enough for that type of scooter.
This scooter was made for city life, to enjoy going around safely and at a medium speed.
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I'm going to add this to the conversation. I have ride my scooter (Agility 50) at 45 Km/H downhill on some occasions. I will tell you that is not safe at all. The scooter is stable at that speed but you can tell that if it goes faster you won't feel safe the same way that you will with a bigger bike. That top speed is enough for that type of scooter.
This scooter was made for city life, to enjoy going around safely and at a medium speed.
It should feel stable though, especially as they made that bike with a 125cc motor for years as well.
How are your tyre pressures? They can make a huge difference :)
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Update!
Some time ago, I took the moped to the dealer who agreed it was unresonably slow, another unsold moped displayed the same slow behaviour. The dealer contacted the importer which for a couple of weeks just came with bullsh**, saying it wasn’t an issue (check tyre pressure etc.). Today the dealer rang me and let me know that many, if not all of the 16+ 50 cc injected Kymcos are slow. Apparently the same issue has been found for the injected 16+ in Germany as well, and â€you don’t mess with Germansâ€! 😋. I guess the German market is bigger than the Swedish and now Kymco has to address the problem. A possible fix might be a softer spring in the rear but my dealer thinks it has to do with not enough fuel or possibly rpm restriction.
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What does a softer rear spring have to do with speed?
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What does a softer rear spring have to do with speed?
Won’t it allow the belt to come closer to to the rear axle = better gearing for higher speed?
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Should be fixed gearing however it's sprung. Well, as fixed as a CVT can be.
Sounds like a remap is in order.
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Won’t it allow the belt to come closer to to the rear axle = better gearing for higher speed?
That is nonsense. The center distance does not change in a CVT. It does in a chain final drive. This is a motorcycle thought stated by someone who is unfamiliar with how CVT's work.
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Won’t it allow the belt to come closer to to the rear axle = better gearing for higher speed?
Then he may want to try heavier rollers (Dr Pulley Sliders equivalent) to counter act the contra spring rather than removing the rear pulley assembly as it is easier to remove the variator.
I sense the new 4 stroke kymcos are restricted at the carb and limited to revs. Dealers sell many types of bikes, so I couldn't expect them to know what Kymco has done to the new models coming out. My dealer was almost clueless and scratched their heads when I asked about derestricting my scooter prior to sale. They told me the bigger 82 jet was only needed if I changed elevation.
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i have a 4t super 8. the bigger jet works wonders. i was amazed at the difference going from an 80 to an 82 made.
tell the dealer to change and it will help you.
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Hi DrSwammelstam,
Well, it appears we're in the same boat! I've had the exact same scooter for about 3 months and am having all the issues you report. Piss poor acceleration as standard, but maybe not quite as slow as yours. Currently the speedo just nudges 50kph going downhill and hovers round 44-45kph on flats. On steeper uphillls, it can drop to around 40kph which is annoying the hell out of me.
Weird thing is, it went faster in the first couple of weeks I had it. I'd get about 53kph going downhill, but then it lost loads of speed just before the first "tightening up" service at 500km (wouldn't even hit 45kph). After that it ran better, but I never got that 53kph top speed again. Maybe it's because I put on weight over the summer! :) I weigh about 82kg now, so maybe that has some sort of negative effect.
(As an aside, my old moped was a SYM Fiddle 50 II and that did 45kph uphill, downhill and on flats! So I guess the comparative average speed is the same LOL!)
Anyway, my KYMCO manual has no technical drawings, so I removed the seat and had a poke around. My first thought was to swop out the CDI, but I couldn't find one. Don't ALL mopeds have one to govern the speed?? I then tried to take the panel off in the footwell, but couldn't. I'm guessing there's nothing under there other than the fuel tank, but could be wrong. I'm not really technically savvy enough to do anything else like mess about with rollers and stuff, so I guess if there isn't a CDI I'll have to ask the mechanic at the next service if he can get some more juice out of it some other way…
Let me know if you have any luck with getting yours to run faster.
/Gwhizz
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Hi DrSwammelstam,
Well, it appears we're in the same boat! I've had the exact same scooter for about 3 months and am having all the issues you report. Piss poor acceleration as standard, but maybe not quite as slow as yours. Currently the speedo just nudges 50kph going downhill and hovers round 44-45kph on flats. On steeper uphillls, it can drop to around 40kph which is annoying the hell out of me.
Weird thing is, it went faster in the first couple of weeks I had it. I'd get about 53kph going downhill, but then it lost loads of speed just before the first "tightening up" service at 500km (wouldn't even hit 45kph). After that it ran better, but I never got that 53kph top speed again. Maybe it's because I put on weight over the summer! :) I weigh about 82kg now, so maybe that has some sort of negative effect.
(As an aside, my old moped was a SYM Fiddle 50 II and that did 45kph uphill, downhill and on flats! So I guess the comparative average speed is the same LOL!)
Anyway, my KYMCO manual has no technical drawings, so I removed the seat and had a poke around. My first thought was to swop out the CDI, but I couldn't find one. Don't ALL mopeds have one to govern the speed?? I then tried to take the panel off in the footwell, but couldn't. I'm guessing there's nothing under there other than the fuel tank, but could be wrong. I'm not really technically savvy enough to do anything else like mess about with rollers and stuff, so I guess if there isn't a CDI I'll have to ask the mechanic at the next service if he can get some more juice out of it some other way…
Let me know if you have any luck with getting yours to run faster.
/Gwhizz
No luck yet. The Swedish importer is now waiting for Kymco to do something. According to my dealer some attempts have been made by the importer to fix the problem by using other variator (cvt?) parts, but without success. The dealer claims the moped needs remapping, i.e. more fuel and more rpm, nothing else will really fix the problem. Remapping is however problematic since it may interfere with the european union emission rules/certification.
At least your moped was going 50km/ downhill ;-) Mine only reaches about 40 max. Do you live in the EU?
/Henrik
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So this version of the Vitality is fuel injected as the "50i" would indicate? That would make modifying the CDI much harder since the spark control and fuel mapping would be all located in the ECU. I think that going the DR PULLEY slider route might get you more speed since the belt will ride higher on the front pulley.
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No luck yet. The Swedish importer is now waiting for Kymco to do something. According to my dealer some attempts have been made by the importer to fix the problem by using other variator (cvt?) parts, but without success. The dealer claims the moped needs remapping, i.e. more fuel and more rpm, nothing else will really fix the problem. Remapping is however problematic since it may interfere with the european union emission rules/certification.
At least your moped was going 50km/ downhill ;-) Mine only reaches about 40 max. Do you live in the EU?
/Henrik
Yes, I live in Stockholm.
Strangely, since my last response the bike has started to go slightly slower! Now doing 44kph on flats and not hitting 50kph anymore on downhills – so annoying! I posted separately on this in the forum (search CDI for new Agility City 16+ 50i). Had a couple of responses, one of the latest recommends the following… "There should be a purple wire with a pink tracer that loops at the CDI. Cut it to derestrict." I haven't tried this yet (not sure if he's for real??), but will have another look and see if I can locate this phantom CDI box!
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Update,
The importer sent new weights and cvt parts that has been tested on my moped but no success. The importer is now taking the moped back for inspection (and another one, also sold in Umeå). My reseller believes, or is at least hoping for a remap, putting an end to this story.
Henrik
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Update from my side… My bike is running even slower now and is 1,500km away from the next service interval. Runs on a flat road at about 42kph, topping out at 47kph going downhill. Definitely something going wrong, so I'll be taking it back to Kopenscooter here in Stockholm so they can have a look. If they can't find anything wrong then I'm going to have to go the same way as you and contact the importer. On the Kymco.se website it says Kopenscooter is the general agent in Sweden. Were you dealing with them directly or through your reseller?
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Update,
The importer sent new weights and cvt parts that has been tested on my moped but no success. The importer is now taking the moped back for inspection (and another one, also sold in Umeå). My reseller believes, or is at least hoping for a remap, putting an end to this story.
Henrik
ANOTHER QUICK UPDATE! I contacted the Swedish agent for Kymco (Mipecorp, who own Köpenscooter), detailing the problem. They acknowledged that I am not the first to experience it and they are contacting Kymco to request a solution. Let's hope for the best!
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ANOTHER QUICK UPDATE! I contacted the Swedish agent for Kymco (Mipecorp, who own Köpenscooter), detailing the problem. They acknowledged that I am not the first to experience it and they are contacting Kymco to request a solution. Let's hope for the best!
Yes, my moped is going back to köpenscooter, lets see what happens.....
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Let us know mate, getting really sick of this BS. >:(
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Yes, my moped is going back to köpenscooter, lets see what happens.....
Hi, just checking if they've tried to repair you moped yet? Any success? I've received word from Mipecorp that they have received the necessary parts and will try and replace the CVT. I'm guessing they were planning on doing the same for yours…
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There is NO CDI in a bike with EFI. Do NOT cut any wires to de-restrict! There is no carburetor so there are NO JETS in EFI. So do not bother buying #82 jets. C'mon, guys! Google some of this stuff! I have been wrong on stuff, too. But this is pretty basic.
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UPDATE!
Took my bike in to köpenscooter this morning. They ran tests, replaced the CVT and then took it for a test drive. No change in performance whatsoever, so it's going back to them next week for a full investigation.
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Seems like the Swedish dealer techs are as clueless as most US dealer techs.....
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Seems like the Swedish dealer techs are as clueless as most US dealer techs.....
"Today at 02:58:55 AM" Crossbolt, you really need to get some sleep.
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"Today at 02:58:55 AM" Crossbolt, you really need to get some sleep.
'Fraid I will miss something...zzźzzzzz.
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UPDATE!
Took my bike in to köpenscooter this morning. They ran tests, replaced the CVT and then took it for a test drive. No change in performance whatsoever, so it's going back to them next week for a full investigation.
No not yet, I have been waiting for the reseller to contact me but he has been on vacation I’ve been told. However, since they are trying to do the same things to your moped as mine it seems a remap is not on the table yet. An yes, the importer also appear to be full of BS, trying the same things over and over although it has never vorked (changing cvt parts). Unless something happens soon I will go for a refund.
/Henrik
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The problem is that my Agility City 16+ 50i, european version, 45 km/h moped only achieves 41-42 km/h on flats, 45km/h downhill and drops down to 30-35km/h in moderate climbs.
The NewSento 50i (4T 50cc fuel injected) in Canada does 60km/hr. The same small frame Sento 110i (110cc fuel injected) does just over 100km/hr. This sounds like a specific European issue. You might check with Kymco Russia since there's no speed restrictions in Russia: https://avto-russia.ru/moto/kymco/
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I agree that it's a European issue. It has to be a CDI restriction. The bike should be capable of 40mph on the flat without breaking much of a sweat!
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Hi im in uk the carb version is very slow too. Derestricted by dealer still only go's 30 mph and slower up hill.I wont be buying another bike from them agian
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Derestricted 139QMB should do 40 on the flat without too much issue. If it's a carb bit, it sounds like it could be under jetted.
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Its the 2 stroke kf10d engine with 82 jet...
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Update
Kymco is sending a couple of ecu units to Sweden to be tested on the sloooow 16+ 50i, will be interesting to see if it works. If not my moped is going back to the dealer.....
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Its the 2 stroke kf10d engine with 82 jet...
Sorry Tony, don't know anything about the 2-smoke motors :(
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Update
Kymco is sending a couple of ecu units to Sweden to be tested on the sloooow 16+ 50i, will be interesting to see if it works. If not my moped is going back to the dealer.....
Got a call from the workshop yesterday that the test spares for my bike have arrived from China. They are apparently replacing the ECU and something to do with the gears. Taking it in next week. If the result is anything less than amazing I'm going for a refund and I'll try another brand/model in the Spring.
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Got a call from the workshop yesterday that the test spares for my bike have arrived from China. They are apparently replacing the ECU and something to do with the gears. Taking it in next week. If the result is anything less than amazing I'm going for a refund and I'll try another brand/model in the Spring.
Alright! Please post when you know if it worked. If not, the moped is going back!
/Henrik
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ANy news?
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Hi all,
Yes, apologies for the late update. They replaced the necessary part/s in the rear wheel. The guy said the problem stemmed from the change in wheel size from the previous Agility model to the 16+ (gone from 16-inch to 14-inch on the back). He reckons Kymco didn't bother designing whatever part it was for the new bike, they kept the older version which was not compatible and therefore caused the rev limiter to kick in harder than it should. Whether all that is true or not, I don't know.
I drove the bike home and was getting speeds up to 53-54kph on pretty flat stretches (still a bit slow uphill, but I doubt that'll change). I wasn't able to push it downhill because of traffic, so who knows it might even go a bit faster. Unfortunately that was the last day I was able to ride the bike before snow/ice came through, so I can't verify if the performance is going to be consistent. I'm hoping that when I get it out of the garage in March/April it'll be all good.
Good luck if you're having the same problem. And let me know if you are able to get it fixed!
/G
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Hi all,
Yes, apologies for the late update. They replaced the necessary part/s in the rear wheel. The guy said the problem stemmed from the change in wheel size from the previous Agility model to the 16+ (gone from 16-inch to 14-inch on the back). He reckons Kymco didn't bother designing whatever part it was for the new bike, they kept the older version which was not compatible and therefore caused the rev limiter to kick in harder than it should. Whether all that is true or not, I don't know.
I drove the bike home and was getting speeds up to 53-54kph on pretty flat stretches (still a bit slow uphill, but I doubt that'll change). I wasn't able to push it downhill because of traffic, so who knows it might even go a bit faster. Unfortunately that was the last day I was able to ride the bike before snow/ice came through, so I can't verify if the performance is going to be consistent. I'm hoping that when I get it out of the garage in March/April it'll be all good.
Good luck if you're having the same problem. And let me know if you are able to get it fixed!
/G
That's cracking news - final drive problems I didn't even consider!
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So... it appears that Kymco engineers changed the size of the rear wheel (from 16" to 14") but did nothing else to the drive system ratio. Consequently, with every revolution of the rear pulley, the scooter did not go as far as it did before the change. Is this correct?
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So... it appears that Kymco engineers changed the size of the rear wheel (from 16" to 14") but did nothing else to the drive system ratio. Consequently, with every revolution of the rear pulley, the scooter did not go as far as it did before the change. Is this correct?
Yes, that’s correct. Engine Rpm’s will now be higher to travel at any given speed . The scoot should have more power in general though - specially riding uphill.
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So what i want to know is kymco going recall/fix them...
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So what i want to know is kymco going recall/fix them...
Do you ride an Agility 16+ 50 as well?
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Yes I do . The worst bike I ever bought nothing but trouble from day one .
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Please some info if anyone has an idea.
Is this gearbox a problem in the Agility R16+ 50 2t TWO STROKE? The new one is with 14 inch wheels. I wonder if it can go 70kph.
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Please some info if anyone has an idea.
Is this gearbox a problem in the Agility R16+ 50 2t TWO STROKE? The new one is with 14 inch wheels. I wonder if it can go 70kph.
Hi mdeni,
My problem was with a 16+ 4T, so I'm not sure about the 2T, but if it's the same wheel set-up then there's a good chance you'll have the same issue.
The dealer has fixed the problem with my bike, so now it goes 50-53kph. Not sure if Kymco will bother with a recall…
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Hi mdeni,
My problem was with a 16+ 4T, so I'm not sure about the 2T, but if it's the same wheel set-up then there's a good chance you'll have the same issue.
The dealer has fixed the problem with my bike, so now it goes 50-53kph. Not sure if Kymco will bother with a recall…
Thank you. Do you have any idea how was it fixed?
I suspected it was unfixable.
I really want the R16 2t because it is the largest scooter with a 50, and fast. But I would like to be sure that I don't make a mistake and regret the scooter forever.
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hi. a few days ago i bought exactly the same scooter as henrik i also live in stockholm. i have the same problem with my agility city 50 EFI. i whould like to contact henrik somehow and ask what as happend with his scoot. i think maybe i should take it back to my dealer and let them know about this and ask for my money back! seems like a really crappy scooter.
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hi. a few days ago i bought exactly the same scooter as henrik i also live in stockholm. i have the same problem with my agility city 50 EFI. i whould like to contact henrik somehow and ask what as happend with his scoot. i think maybe i should take it back to my dealer and let them know about this and ask for my money back! seems like a really crappy scooter.
Not sure where you bought yours from? Mine was from Köpenscooter Lindhagensgatan in Stockholm. When I first complained about the problem, the mechanics didn't have a clue what was wrong, so they had to contact Kymco in China to get a fix. A couple of weeks went by for the parts to arrive (they sent the wrong parts the first time). My scooter is proof that the problem is fixable, so if you bought yours from Köpenscooter then they should be able to contact Lindhagensgatan and get the solution from their mechanic.
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Thank you. Do you have any idea how was it fixed?
I suspected it was unfixable.
I really want the R16 2t because it is the largest scooter with a 50, and fast. But I would like to be sure that I don't make a mistake and regret the scooter forever.
I'm not too sure, but someone else who posted here said this:
it appears that Kymco engineers changed the size of the rear wheel (from 16" to 14") but did nothing else to the drive system ratio. Consequently, with every revolution of the rear pulley, the scooter did not go as far as it did before the change.
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I know what is the problem. But how did they fix it? Is the final drive ratio interchangeable?
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Im thinking maybe it will work to take a ECU box from Kymco agiliti city 16+ 125 to the 50cc modell. i gonna talk to Köpenscooter about that!
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Im thinking maybe it will work to take a ECU box from Kymco agiliti city 16+ 125 to the 50cc modell. i gonna talk to Köpenscooter about that!
Keep us in the loop with your progress!
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the store i bought it from have now contact Köpenscooter and are going to call me but i think i need to hunt them myself in order to get things to happen, they work so damn slow, but they are talking about change the gears and i thnk there is someting moore like maybe a rev limiter.
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yes so tomorow friday 5/4 i gonna take it to köpenscooter and they are going to change the gears,lets hope this will work. im also going to talk to them about maybe trying to test the ECU box from a 125cc
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yes so tomorow friday 5/4 i gonna take it to köpenscooter and they are going to change the gears,lets hope this will work. im also going to talk to them about maybe trying to test the ECU box from a 125cc
Awesome, let me know how it goes. I'm interested to hear what sort of max speed you get compared to mine (52-53kph).
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At what revs are you getting 53kmh? Is it over 9000?
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so, a little update then,mine i exactly like yourse now, about 50-55 and close to 60 downhill but it still accelerates painfull slow but i guess thats life with 4T :( i think im going to sell it or try the 125CC ecu box on it, they diddent whant to to that for me..
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so, a little update then,mine i exactly like yourse now, about 50-55 and close to 60 downhill but it still accelerates painfull slow but i guess thats life with 4T :( i think im going to sell it or try the 125CC ecu box on it, they diddent whant to to that for me..
Did they change the final drive? Is it on lower rpm now?
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Be careful you don't just fry your loom by swapping the ECU with the 125cc one!
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so, a little update then,mine i exactly like yourse now, about 50-55 and close to 60 downhill but it still accelerates painfull slow but i guess thats life with 4T :( i think im going to sell it or try the 125CC ecu box on it, they diddent whant to to that for me..
Good to hear that they sorted it out for you. Seems like you're getting a bit more speed than me on the downhills though which is weird! I maxed out at about 54kph this morning on quite a long downhill. Cruising on flats at around 51kph which is faster than my last bike ever went (SYM Fiddle II). But you're right about the slow acceleration...it takes a while to get up to speed. It is a heavy bike though – and I'm not the lightest guy either. :)
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Perhaps you could try some sliiiightly lighter roller weights to see if you can improve that accelleration? It should be possible to go a little lighter without dropping top speed :)