KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: CROSSBOLT on April 16, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
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This will be an exercise to see what works and what does not, step by step, in solving a problem common to any gas engine powered machine but particularly my DT300i. I will try to lay this out in a logical matter, posting results of each test until WE find and correct the cause.
History: 2013 DT300i, new old stock, purchased May 2016 to replace one stolen and totaled. 6200 miles, last oil filter change 6116 miles. Original battery may have been new in 2016. Absolutely no starting problems from first sight, hot, cold, any temperature. Gas cap vented, WOLO horn installed on separate fuse directly from battery. Sucessful ride last week. Washed this last Saturday.
Symptoms: Either brake lever + start switch spins starter with normal noises. Usually starts during second revolution signified by starter sound of slowing during compression. Spins 4-5 revolutions with no tendency to fire. Side stand and run-stop switch cycled with same result.
First action: Put on charger to bring battery back after abnormal, unsuccessful start.
2nd: Prove side stand switch. Side stand up- all lights on panel show, tach and speedo cycle, fuel pump heard.
Side stand down- all lights except CELP, no fuel pump sound. PASS.
3rd: Prove run-stop switch. Run- same as side stand up.
Stop- same as side stand down. PASS.
4th: Find battery voltage, no load, ignition on engine not running and engine running.
Kymco analyzer can only get the last two above. I show two meters, the green one is medium priced and the black is one of those 15-17 dollar cheapo that read the same as the green. Both agree with the Kymco tool. The bike started normally three times! The only conclusion I can draw is that God did prevent me from riding that day.
24 April
5th: Find starting voltage. Hooked up Kymco analyzer before start. Would have done pictures if three hands were originally issued! First start was reluctant spinning 4 revolutions before firing. Showed 9.1 volts on analyzer which I think is too low. What do you think?
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Not enough miles to be a hard start due to valves....or is it?
My 2nd thought is 2013 battery (could even be a 2012). If it is a 2016 - How big is it? CCA?
It seems to me that, while EFI is great, it also likes a very healthy battery.
Stig
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Me, too! Tomorrow!
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Valves were a little tight on my first Downtown the year after purchase. Luckily, adjustments are easy with the screw-type adjusters. No fussing with shims. Seat bucket out, valve cover out of the way, make sure valves are fully closed. Pair of small open wrenches and trusty flat feeler gauges. Adjust away! 0.12 mm intake and exhaust.
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Sounds like my problem , pull the spark plug check the spark, Reg. and stator check next,.
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Have had some home-type issues with higher priority (grass, mower repair, etc.) over this project. Will be back on it shortly.
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Check latest message mod for update. You think 9.1 volts while cranking is too low?
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I don't think 9.1V is cause for concern
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The internet tends to disagree, Viper. Depending who, the concensus is 9.6 volts minimum for GM, 10-11 volts for all others. As far as we are concerned, it is the voltage below which the ignition fails or the ECU fails to function. I DID get a new idea from the search, however. That is to test the voltage drop in the fat wires that power the starter, including the ground wire and the start relay. This is done by paralleling the voltmeter with each leg to be tested. The concensus on permissible drop is .5 volts or less. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the service manual about this.
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Shows what I know!
Hopefully you can get it sorted.
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Not at all, Viper! All either of us know at this point is what we have read either in a book or on the Internet and possibly someone's opinion. I certainly have never had the idea of measuring voltage drop in a section of heavy cable. I think it can be done without removing anything but the seat and met-in tub. We will see....
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The internet tends to disagree, Viper. Depending who, the concensus is 9.6 volts minimum for GM, 10-11 volts for all others. As far as we are concerned, it is the voltage below which the ignition fails or the ECU fails to function. I DID get a new idea from the search, however. That is to test the voltage drop in the fat wires that power the starter, including the ground wire and the start relay. This is done by paralleling the voltmeter with each leg to be tested. The concensus on permissible drop is .5 volts or less. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the service manual about this.
Would this not be same as voltage drop across the battery? If the solenoid (and later starter) are fed quite directly from the battery on the fat cables.
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Yes. This checking voltage drop on cables will reveal where is most of the drop. For instance, the battery will be at fault if the individual cable drops are less than.5 volts. I am guessing at that last number. Ideally, there should be zero drop on each cable. That would leave 12v at the starter if there were no battery internal resistance. More on this later. I gotta read some more....
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My eyes are falling out! I have scoured the internet to arrive at some conclusions. First, there is a concensus that motorcycles in general should show no lower than 9.5 to 10.5 volts during starting. Second, 12.3 volts no-load is regarded as 50% capacity. Lastly, I am guilty of over complicating this problem! So, in a few minutes, I will be ordering a new battery for the scoot. I will do a start voltage test with the new battery and post the results.
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My eyes are falling out! I have scoured the internet to arrive at some conclusions. First, there is a concensus that motorcycles in general should show no lower than 9.5 to 10.5 volts during starting. Second, 12.3 volts no-load is regarded as 50% capacity. Lastly, I am guilty of over complicating this problem! So, in a few minutes, I will be ordering a new battery for the scoot. I will do a start voltage test with the new battery and post the results.
Gotta love this guy!
Stig
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Thanx, Stig! I needed that!
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Thanx, Stig! I needed that!
I am out of ideas....I have spark, compression but no fuel flow to the carb and she tries to start but no go
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I am out of ideas....I have spark, compression but no fuel flow to the carb and she tries to start but no go
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
Not the kill switch, is it?
Have a good brake light when you pull the lever in the start sequence?
Tried start with loosened fuel cap?
Stig
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Not the kill switch, is it?
Have a good brake light when you pull the lever in the start sequence?
Tried start with loosened fuel cap?
Stig
I Will do so....oh and another thing every time I try to start it I hear like the exhaust is pumping...But to be sure since I changed my mind replacing the camshaft. I had to use for reference T.D.C with the fly wheel. With that being said is T.D.C with the "T" aligned with the "v" or is it the Line after the "T"....just double checking
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I Will do so....oh and another thing every time I try to start it I hear like the exhaust is pumping...But to be sure since I changed my mind replacing the camshaft. I had to use for reference T.D.C with the fly wheel. With that being said is T.D.C with the "T" aligned with the "v" or is it the Line after the "T"....just double checking
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Note: The exhaust only start sounding funny when starting after i tried to do a valve adjustment...
Int .004 exhaust .005 right
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Did you adjust the valves or just check them?
In other words, did you change anything?
Stig
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Did you adjust the valves or just check them?
In other words, did you change anything?
Stig
I called the corporate Kymco office and talked to the Maintenance head director and he mentioned to me that the "T" "l" need to be aligned with the "v" not the "T" and my valves on intake and exhaust need to be set at 0.10 mm in other words .004 on both ends. I mentioned to him the suffocated exhaust sound he said there's no compression.....So I have some work to do...
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Yes, the T just shows you that mark is the correct mark, rather than any orhers. Yeah that gap is probably printed on the label somewhete on your scooter (under the seat?)
So, please back up and fill in needed info.
Ok, this scooter is how old, how many miles, and was running just fine ----then you did what to it for what reason?
Or, explain what you were trying to fix, and why.....and still need info on scooter personals (age. Miles, etc)
Stig
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Yes, the T just shows you that mark is the correct mark, rather than any orhers. Yeah that gap is probably printed on the label somewhete on your scooter (under the seat?)
So, please back up and fill in needed info.
Ok, this scooter is how old, how many miles, and was running just fine ----then you did what to it for what reason?
Or, explain what you were trying to fix, and why.....and still need info on scooter personals (age. Miles, etc)
Stig
2014 Kymco super 8 150 at 21k miles. I had try to set the cam at T.D.C and I was going to do and cam upgrade and decided to stick with the original cam so by me watching other vids online I aligned the flywheel to the point before the "v" instead on the "v" then I placed the original cam not knowing it wasn't aligned. I also adjusted my intake at .004 and exhaust at .005... So I try to start it and i notice the carb was not getting fuel flow and it was trying to turn over but no go and also heard a suffocated exhaust sound as well. So I called the Kymco head of Maintained Operations and he mentioned to me the "l" before the "T" needs to be lined with the "v" so my indications from what he told me my timing is off and both valves needs to be set at .004
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How was it running before you started any of this work on it?
Stig
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How was it running before you started any of this work on it?
Stig
It was running fine excellent condition
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Replacement battery in the nearest town for delivery! More as it happens....
Arrived before 1400 cdt! Cannot believe it survived (pictures). Now on charge....
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All voltage readings about the same EXCEPT start volts is now 10.5-11.0 on Kymco analyzer. That is the key voltage it seems. That 9.1 stuff is too marginal for the rest of the system. I would say that the voltage test should be one of the FIRST checks when experiencing hard or no-start. 12.5 no load, 10.5 -11.0 start, 13.6 idle and 14.3 volts @ 3500-4000 RPM for MINIMUMS. The key is the starting volts.
This "Chrome" battery is sealed AGM shipped charged. We will see if it will equal the Yuasa (doubtful) for 32.50 USD free ship from either Amazon or Chrome in KY. Certainly will be equal to the cheap chinese battery the dealer installed instead of the Kymco OEM brand.
Nice day tomorrow forcast. Think I will find an excuse to ride!
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Replacement battery in the nearest town for delivery! More as it happens....
Arrived before 1400 cdt! Cannot believe it survived (pictures). Now on charge....
Karl, That is one cool looking battery - and really shiny!
Can't beat the price!
Of course you need to ride tomorrow - Tell the Mrs, "We're almost out of Herring!"
Stig
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Personally I've given up on branded batteries. I've had Yuasas and Motobatts fail at a young age, and Powerlines/Lexteks (UK cheapie brands) carry on to 8-9 years. There's just no consistency.
Just pick one and go for it :)
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By the way, that Chrome battery is about 1/16" taller than the one it replaced. It is a snug fit but it goes in all the way and the cover goes back on without bad words.
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Update: all is still well!
I finally remembered on one of our Walmart trips to re-examine the EverStart motorcycle batteries. Nowhere on the box or battery is listed CCA amps! Counter man had no idea and could not guess where to look! This is for a ES12-BS size battery to fit the DT300I battery box. At 55+ bucks one would be WAY ahead to spring for a Yuasa and not a cheap China clone like they are selling. How do I know my Chrome battery is really 175 cca? I don't. But it does start the engine better than that 120 cca China junk the dealer put in. For now, anyway...
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I've had pretty good success with cheaper white label batteries for customers back when I worked as a parts person. But then again, the supplier we purchased from likely had buying power and quality control in place to make sure the junk never reached us.
We also never put cheap batteries into our refurbished bikes. Customer gets GS Yuasa unless they specifically request and pay for anything lesser.
For my personal bikes though, I never rolled the dice. I didn't have the stomach for it if I was out on a road trip and my battery gave out. Most of the time, I use my battery jump pack for everyone else who gets stranded.
Much easier nowadays with Amazon reviews. Customers are ruthless. Great for the rest of us!
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DING! White label batteries! That 120 cca was Bike Master and all the print on the black plastic case was WHITE! From china! Never heard that term but makes complete sense. Cheap, works good enough to get out the door and lasted a little over two years! Believe me, I GET IT! Thanks!