KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Downtown 300 => Topic started by: kneeslider on August 25, 2017, 12:21:59 PM
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On the way home, noticed the battery icon lit up. Didn't think much of it as it was acting normal, nothing out of the ordinary.
I turned off my LED driving lights just in case.
30kms down the road, I noticed the speedo stopped registering as the needle dropped to zero. Soon after that, it started to jerk a little, a bit further the jerking became worse and acceleration too became jerky.
Abit further down the road, the display was fading and went blank, jerking was really bad with major hesitation in acceleration. Then the lights went out, tachometer stuck at 4000rpm and everything died.
Managed to find a park to park it overnight and hitched the rest of the way home (thanks to the samaritan that offered the lift).
So the battery definitely is dead. But since I was riding it, shouldn't it be enough to keep the bike running?
Unless my alternator too is fried? But it still doesn't explain why it would still die and relied on the battery to keep it going.
So guys, can you please help in a diagnostic?
Tomorrow, I will bring the mechanic to help sort out the bike. At worse, just hook up a good battery so I can get it to the workshop or is it as simple as a bad battery.
Thanks in advance.
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Based on what I have read here and NOT on personal experience, it sounds like either stator or rectifier-regulator failure. I recommend you start with testing the reg-rect as it seems the weak link. Peter Kapitar in Hungary was the one that discovered the weakness of the Kymco rect-reg and replaced it with a HONDA device as it is more reliable. The only caution is the failing Kymco device destroys the stator or seems to.
Karl
I reviewed Peter's PMs to me and he said it was a Honda SH unit reg-rect. I will try to get the part number. Additionally, he had his stator REWOUND in Hungary near Budapest. It may be cost effective for you to ship your stator to Hungary for rewinding if necessary. Maybe Peter will jump on this thread soon. Malaysia is closer to Hungary than Tennessee!
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Your description of what happened is a perfect display of what happens when the stator and/or the the rectifier/regulator have stopped working. I concur with crossbolt, however it could be something as simple as a bad, loose, or corroded connection . Check the 3 wire connector from the stator to the r/r. You can check the ohms between those three wires. That will tell you if the stator i is good or not. You will have to look up the resistance values online or in a shop manual. If the stator checks out, then you should get 13 ~ 14 VDC at the battery, @ 5000 rpms. If not, then r/r is bad. Hope it isn't to bad. Let us know. we'll keep our fingers crossed.
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The two times my R/R died a burn mark could be seen on the epoxy on the body of the R/R with a distinct smell of burnt isolation.
Hope it is a faulty R/R, much easier to change then a faulty stator.
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Mac is absolutely right: look at the simple stuff first, connections, connectors, wires and like jeeves suggested, smell and appearance of components.
Karl
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Arranging for it to be towed to the scooter specialist.
I hope it's just the rectifier. The shop says that if it is the stator, all the fluids including the coolant will need to be dropped hence the bill will be triple that for just the rectifier.
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Arranging for it to be towed to the scooter specialist.
I hope it's just the rectifier. The shop says that if it is the stator, all the fluids including the coolant will need to be dropped hence the bill will be triple that for just the rectifier.
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My regulator died at 54,000km. I have a guide to check and replace the regulator-rectifier. It's a relatively easy fix. http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=24424.0. (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=24424.0.)
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Did some hunting on this in case it is the reg-rect: common part among several brands and models is the Shindengen 232-12. Electrically plug and play but physically larger with way more cooling fin area. Bolt hole spacing may be different. Connectors the same. This is the same outfit that Honda uses so should be quite reliable. Interesting the Honda part # starts with "31600" and has similar grouping of letters and numbers following! Peter Kapitar in Hungary says the mechanic claims the Honda R/R is more reliable. Also your local Honda motorcycle parts guy can sell you a R/R for a CB 400 circa 1980 that is a Shindengen 232-12! Don't forget the salvage yards!
Karl
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The scooter specialist called back.
The battery died. The magneto and rectifier is still working, making charge.
Seems out scooters have so small alternators that without the battery, it won't ne enough to keep it running.
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Your description pretty well outlines that the battery died. ALL batteries will completely discharge on any machine if they are not recharged from the machine's generator or alternator. The bikes charging system has to have the capacity to run the WHOLE machine current drain AND charge the battery to replace the amp-hours removed by starting. Your battery died because it was not being charged. Not charging is either like Mac said, bad connection or reg-rect and/or stator failed. This bad connection is intermittent apparently.
Karl
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Kneeslider, now is the time to have the battery tender pig tails installed, if you didn't have any already. Keep that puppy plugged in. Glad to hear that it wasn't anything serious.
Rich
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Maybe it's mixing apples and pears, but something similar did happen to me a few years ago.
Went to the movies with my wife, and after that came back to my car, the dashboard lights did turn on, but couldn't start it.
Had jumper cables with me, and asked a guy to connect to his battery. The engine did start, but soon as I turned on the lights it died. Ask the guy to try one more time, it did start again, this time didn't turn the lights on.
Got out if the public garage, got the revs up and then turned the lights on, but it almost died on me again. Turned the lights off, not a smart idea because it was dark, but tried to get to a free parking place for the night.
The engine was working (badly), and as soon as I touched the brakes it almost died again. Came to a stop using the hand brake, and finally parked it. Took the bus home.
Next day bought a new battery, and everything was ok.
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Ya know, Jeeves brings up a really good point: the battery can fail with one or more SHORTED CELLS! At 2.2 volts per cell it will not take but a couple of cells to put a tremendous load on charging system and render it incapable of keeping the brain active.
Karl
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Picking her up during my lunch break today, see how it goes with just the battery being replaced.
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Good luck, but that sure sounds like the stator is toast. A failing (but not yet dead) stator WILL pass the test in the service manual, but will not be able to keep the battery charged. Anyways, it is correct to replace the battery first, since replacing the stator is a pretty big job (drain antifreeze and oil, take off plastics, take off water pump, take off right side cover, replace stator, replace regulator, reassemble crank cover with new gasket, reassemble water pump with new gasket, fill up oil and antifreeze, check if bike starts, reassemble bike.)
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Stop! You're scaring me!
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Another "bright idea" from TN: why not a circuit breaker on the output of the rect-reg? Were the battery to fail with shoted cell (s) the breaker would open saving the charging system.
Karl
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From what I was told, our scoot's charging system is so small that it will not run if there is no battery.
Now I do not understand how that works, especially when the charging system will need to charge the battery.
Anyways, if you have the chance, while the bike is running, disconnect the battery, you will notice that it will stall.
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Shoulda tried that when I checked the valves before the Huntsville trip! Somebody else try it. Bet it runs on.
Karl
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Studied the wiring diagram to find a circuit breaker would be redundant since there is a 30 amp fuse in that circuit already! Also that 30 amp fuse would make for a fairly easy test to see if the engine would run without the battery. That is IF you could remove it without removing seat and tub first!
This also raises the question why that fuse does not blow when the battery has shorted cells. I also think with an open in the battery the engine would run on and you would not notice until you tried to start. I am beginning to think the normal failure mode is the charging function fails first, then the batt goes flat and engine quits. The case with Peter's DT in Hungary was the reg-rect failed, destroyed stator and then batt went flat and Peter started walking!
Karl
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Well, only my battery was changed and she is running as usual for the past three days. It definatelyr is making charge or the battery alone won't have lasted till now. My daily trip is 80kms, about 40mins each way.
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Hot dog! Cannot argue with results! So happy to hear it was just that! Hope to hear no gripes for a long time! How many miles/kilometers on your ride?
Karl
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Hot dog! Cannot argue with results! So happy to hear it was just that! Hope to hear no gripes for a long time! How many miles/kilometers on your ride?
Karl
I really hope it's nothing else that's going to go kaput. I have to replace the drive belt and tires soon.
She is now 55800kms.
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A shorted cell in a battery means that the anode and cathode are making contact in the electrolyte so no voltage is produced from that cell. As such the shorted cell becomes a resistor and will cause a voltage drop when the battery is used.