KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: hypophthalmus on May 07, 2017, 05:40:52 PM
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I've been considering using Dupont's chain lubricant on my variator (carefully avoiding the belt surfaces) to help the sliders slide better: http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/product/chain-saver-lubricant.php (http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/product/chain-saver-lubricant.php)
It's dry, meant to repel dirt, and good for temperatures up to 300 degrees F.
Previously I thought I might try paste wax, until I realized that it'd probably just melt.
Any thoughts?
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Dont see how it could hurt providing you keep it to the slide ramps, like you said. If you try it, let us know how it works.
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Seems to me anything slippy inside that belt case should be avoided unless called for by the specs ?
redk
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If you insist on lub in there ,. polish it on the ramp slides and rollers only , no loose lub that will get on the belt or variator faces,. this is the advice from those that used grafite, and they failed,.
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From what I've read some clean and smooth out the areas where the rollers/sliders go, not sure if any go further by light sanding and polishing the surfaces a bit.
You are using Dr Pulley sliders?
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5yrs scooter reading >>> "clean, but no lube of any kind"
....some folks think we scooter riders tend to overthink things.....
Stig
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Where friction occurs at the load bearing surface, smooth is good.
Sandpaper, by it's nature, is flexible, and using it, unsupported, will round over edges of that support surface, leaving less.
This will lead to premature failure.
A proper grit flat whetstone to fit the application is superior to sandpaper.
The cheapo jeweler's files could also work well.
Minimal stock removal is advised, only to enhance smooth operation of the mechanism.
No lubricant is required, or advisable.
redk
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So I tried it with varying thicknesses on a smooth stainless steel surface. After 5 hours, none of it really dried or turn waxy. Definitely nothing like paste wax. It just stayed pretty greasy and oily.
So I don't think I'll be trying it in the variator.
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Does anyone happen to know how hot the variator gets?
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Being on the engine side I'd imagine about the same temp as it or slightly less.
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That's definitely too hot for any kind of wax.
In addition to not seeming dry in the first place, apparently that chain lubricant is only supposed to be dry up to 120 degrees F.
I came across this though, which sounds like it'd be much more suitable: http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/files/DuP_InfoSheet_NON%20STICK_1511.pdf (http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/files/DuP_InfoSheet_NON%20STICK_1511.pdf)
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Wow !
Ceramically reinforced fluoropolymers applied to personal transport technology...
You guys are AWEsome !
When do you estimate your field testing will be ready to publish ?
I would be interested in reviewing your performance/longevity results.
redk
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5yrs scooter reading >>> "clean, but no lube of any kind"
....some folks think we scooter riders tend to overthink things.....
Stig
I believe Stig is right. I think we are overthinking. I think.
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Mr Paul, Stig,
Guilty.
The best I can do, in many circumstances, online, or in the real world, is to present my opinion based on experience, to help others out.
It's up to them to take it with a grain of salt, or the forum in general to shoot it down in flames if incorrect.
Among the wisest things I have seen here on the Kymco Forum is the advisory that if a rider wishes a quicker, more powerful or capable scooter, with a few exceptions, it is best to upgrade to a larger model.
That being said, I've been quite impressed with young folks 'tuning' their mopeds for racing !
redk
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Mr Paul, Stig,
Guilty.
The best I can do, in many circumstances, online, or in the real world, is to present my opinion based on experience, to help others out.
It's up to them to take it with a grain of salt, or the forum in general to shoot it down in flames if incorrect.
Among the wisest things I have seen here on the Kymco Forum is the advisory that if a rider wishes a quicker, more powerful or capable scooter, with a few exceptions, it is best to upgrade to a larger model.
That being said, I've been quite impressed with young folks 'tuning' their mopeds for racing !
redk
Yep Red. A good rule is; if you want a faster scooter, buy a faster scooter. Kymco scooters are so well engineered it is really hard if not impossible to overall improve them. In most cases it would be cheaper and less headache to sell and upgrade to a more powerful, and reliable scooter. But I too understand the need to tinker and upgrade. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt, and the wisdom.
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I'm actually quite happy with the performance of the scooter. I guess I'm just being fiddly for the fun of it, and because it doesn't cost very much.
Supposedly the Dr Pulley sliders allow lower and higher gears. But it's been suggested that they're sluggish to move compared to rollers, which sounds plausible. So it would make sense then that there would be more of an advantage to apply some kind of lubricant, though I don't think it'd need to be super slick.
Trying the dry teflon film on a smooth stainless steel surface, a thicker spray left a film that seemed a bit fragile. It seems plausible that it would rub off and get somewhere it shouldn't. Rubbing off the excess though leaves a surface that doesn't feel much different to the touch, but lets the old rollers I took out slide much more easily on it. So I think I'll do that.
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Buggypartsnw.com is who I buy my Dr Pulley sliders and slide pieces from. They are also a good source of info. on the use of Dr P products.
Their web site gives an explanation of how sliders work, expected results from using different weights, recommended weights for engine sizes, etc. Their installation instructions do not include the addition of substances when using sliders.
However, I do understand scooter riders love of fiddling.....
Then, there are those who never pull their dipstick (Honda PCX owners) brag about having never looked at the orig spark plug in 60,000 miles (Burgman owners. No -it's dead simple to access the $6 plug on America's most expensive mid weight scooter ,after popping 2 panel pins....cutting airfilters out of old socks or $2 furnace filters), etc.
Takes all kinds.
Stig
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Yep Red. A good rule is; if you want a faster scooter, buy a faster scooter. Kymco scooters are so well engineered it is really hard if not impossible to overall improve them. In most cases it would be cheaper and less headache to sell and upgrade to a more powerful, and reliable scooter. But I too understand the need to tinker and upgrade. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt, and the wisdom.
Agree, case in point; my previous PS 200 was a bit anemic to me on the top end so instead of trying to tweak it, sold it and uograded from 163cc to 249cc. Man what a difference that made and took me off riding the shoulder on state highways to running with traffic now. Maggie over at the Maxi Scoot forum had done an engine upgrade on her BW increasing to 300cc. That's insane as this little scoot is already too fast at 85mph top end. If I want to see 100, which I do occasionally, it's on my SW.
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Whew!
A 100mph scooter !
I can only imagine.
redk
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Whew!
A 100mph scooter !
I can only imagine.
I do take mine up to take fairly regularly on riding the freeway, both the B650's (with the large Givi screen I try to stay under 80 mph indicated nowadays) and the MyRoad have seen in excess of 100 mph indicated.
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I applied it to parts of the variator: the ramps, slide pieces, the metal the slide pieces contacts, collar (in retrospect I maybe shouldn't have, although it actually seemed like it was lightly oiled when I took it out), and the sliders.
It was pretty dirty when I opened it up, so unfortunately I won't know if any differences are from cleaning it or lubricating it. It all felt pretty rough in there in the first place. The plastic slide pieces especially might as well have been rusty metal. Hopefully I should be able to find out if it causes any problems, and if it helps it stay any cleaner though.
The lubricant seems like a good choice if anything is going to work. It seems to stick on well, and feels quite dry like a waxed metal table. It's all nice and smooth now, but not especially more so than the pulley surfaces are. I'd actually be curious to see if it adversely affects the belt if it's sprayed in the pulleys... not enough to try it though.
It'll be a while longer before I can actually try it, as I wait for a bearing to come in.
I'm assuming if the belt does slip, it'd be obvious?
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Before cleaning:
http://earthwoodjoinery.com/random/photo/scooter/variatorlubricate/beforeclean.jpg (http://earthwoodjoinery.com/random/photo/scooter/variatorlubricate/beforeclean.jpg)
After cleaning and lubricating:
http://earthwoodjoinery.com/random/photo/scooter/variatorlubricate/afterclean.jpg (http://earthwoodjoinery.com/random/photo/scooter/variatorlubricate/afterclean.jpg)
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One would think that in a device designed to transmit power in varying ratios and with the main physical element being friction, introducing any type of slippery substance would be contrary to the design. Trying to keep it off the belt and ramps would be something akin to trying to stand on a bar of soap in the shower. IMHO
Mac
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It definitely can't be so slippery that the belt slips on the pulleys instead of grabbing them. But lower friction would also mean the belt would have to waste less energy being pulled out of the pulleys. And it'd wear the belt less I suppose.
I personally have no idea how much more slippery it can get before the belt can't grip properly.
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One would think that in a device designed to transmit power in varying ratios and with the main physical element being friction, introducing any type of slippery substance would be contrary to the design. Trying to keep it off the belt and ramps would be something akin to trying to stand on a bar of soap in the shower. IMHO
Mac
One would think that in a device designed to transmit power in varying ratios and with the main physical element being friction, introducing any type of slippery substance would be contrary to the design. Trying to keep it off the belt and ramps would be something akin to trying to stand on a bar of soap in the shower. IMHO
Mac
Agree about the soap/shower thing....
Teen daughter might be trying to speed up her inheritance of the scooter estate, and my golf clubs: cream rinse in the shower is a deadly, silent, invisible, substance!
Stig
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Perhaps a graphic would be of assistance in this discussion ?
I have talent.
Some time ago I was creating abstract art by applying paint to a substrate placed upon a centrifuge.
An example is posted below.
Feel free to judge the quality of my talent and skill. :-)
It occurs to me, the bit of artwork applies in this discussion.
The artwork was accomplished at perhaps 5rpm using a viscous fluid on a horizontal plane, and halted when I felt I had achieved a particular effect, at which time it set up, and has defied forces thereafter.
For the matter at hand...
The manufacturer has guaranteed both viscosity and lubricity for an extended period of time.
It is being applied to a centrifuge, perhaps run at extremely high rpm, within a heated environment that also has turbulent air currents within it.
The basic intent is to facilitate a positive transition of power via dissimilar mating surfaces transmitting various levels of torque.
I would suggest consideration of the lubricant manufacturers claim of longevity for effectiveness.
This could lead me to consider the product would be mobile under applied forces for quite some period of time.
This has been fun for me, how about you ?
redk
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I've considered this. It'll be interesting to see how it handles the high rpms over long periods.
It's dry, so no viscosity. In addition to the centrifugal force, there's also simply the rubbing of materials which might shed some of the lubricant. It does have an adhesive/cohesive quality, and in the best case that will allow it to just stay put. There was belt dust stuck in there after all. If it doesn't, it might just gather at the ends of the variator. If it's just a matter of poor longevity under the stresses, then no harm.
If it does somehow reach the belt or pulleys, it's hard for me to imagine it not just flying off for the same reasons. And if not... it's not that slippery, and might be fine anyways.
Or maybe the belt will slip, I guess I'll see. Assuming it's noticable...
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... It'll be interesting to see ...
Yah... Fun stuff !
I will look forward to reading your report after a few months or so !
redk
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Yes I agree Redk. I'll be waiting for his report. Some times experience is the best teacher.
Mac
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Everything's finally put together and running now.
No immediate problems are evident.
It seems like there's more power/responsiveness at the lowest speeds. Which is something that seemed to be lacking when I switched to sliders in the first place. In general the response seems possibly more even. Of course it seems very probable that there are psychological factors involved, not to mention cleaning the variator, roughing up the clutch with sandpaper, lightly sanding the clutch pads just enough to expose a fresh color, and changing the belt.