KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => People 50 => Topic started by: blufx on March 25, 2016, 08:13:37 PM
-
Only 3300 miles the scooter.
Some of this content was copied from forum posts I was asking in.
I NEED YOUR HELP!
I have this noise sometimes. Kinda like a mechanical rattle. At first it was only on occasion. Now it's almost constant. When it happens, there's a big power loss. I noticed it before I installed the 70cc BBK, and it's still there. Sometimes, I can start off and I don't hear it. When that happens, I have plenty of power, but if it starts, power drops a lot. Early on, I thought it was coming from the transmission just behind the motor. I changed my mind on that. It seems to be emitting from the AC generator. There's only a few reasons an AC generator could possibly make noise like this in my thinking, but it's none of those. The fan cover is secure. The fan is too. All four screws are intact and tight. The flywheel is properly seated on the taper with the woodruff key in place. The magnetic pick up is secure. Nothing is touching or can touch anything else.
Below is some other stuff I've done to figure out what it could be.
I've taken it all apart. Everything looks great. I replaced the belt. The variator weights have a very slight flat spot on them. I've seen a lot worse and not hear anything. I noticed I could start off holding the rear break and prevent the rattle. I pulled the rear wheel expecting to find loose springs or something. Everything is just the way it's supposed to be. I can't see it involving the final drive gears. If they made noise, it would be constant. I checked them anyway. There's no detectable wear on gears or bearings. Even with the final drive shaft sticking out of the bearing about 5 inches, there's like .04 - .06" movement or play on the opposite end.
It has nothing to do with the brakes. Everything is perfect in there, but I removed the shoes and rode it. Still there.
I can start the scooter, give it some gas to make it produce the noise. The wheels aren't turning yet, but touch the brake and instantly the motor speeds up and smooths out for the most part. It doesn't go away completely.
Man, this is driving me nuts. Can it be electrical? Is somehow lighting the rear brake light making it go away? But above all, what in hell can be making the noise?
-
I vote for one of the main bearing shells (outer race) spinning in the case. Could also be a defective ball separator in one of the main bearings.
Karl
-
I vote for one of the main bearing shells (outer race) spinning in the case. Could also be a defective ball separator in one of the main bearings.
Karl
How would touching the brake enough to light the brake light heal the bearings? I'd think if it were bearing noise, it would always be there.
-
"There's no detectable wear on gears or bearings. Even with the final drive shaft sticking out of the bearing about 5 inches, there's like .04 - .06" movement or play on the opposite end." Can you post a pic of this? or describe it a little better? Are you referring to the shaft wheel is bolted to? Does the wheel have any side to side play after installed and torqued down?
Is this the same scooter you had in Jan?, that had 8300k/ 5200 miles?, and now has 3300 miles?
-
"There's no detectable wear on gears or bearings. Even with the final drive shaft sticking out of the bearing about 5 inches, there's like .04 - .06" movement or play on the opposite end." Can you post a pic of this? or describe it a little better? Are you referring to the shaft wheel is bolted to? Does the wheel have any side to side play after installed and torqued down?
Is this the same scooter you had in Jan?, that had 8300k/ 5200 miles?, and now has 3300 miles?
Yes, it's the very same scooter, except now I realize I was looking at kilometers and thought it was miles. My mistake. It didn't have as many miles as I thought.
No, I can't show a picture as it's together now, but you're right, I am talking about the main shaft that drives the wheel. Without the wheel in place, there's VERY little free play at the opposite end, indicating there's little to no wear on the bearing.
On you last question., no, there's no side play.
-
If I understand what you said, the rear axle shaft moves .04 - .06' on the threaded end where the wheel attaches, right?
-
If I understand what you said, the rear axle shaft moves .04 - .06' on the threaded end where the wheel attaches, right?
Yes. With the shaft sticking out of the bearing about 5" and no wheel mounted, there's only about .04" movement. It's the only shaft on the scooter that could be sticking out of anything 5", well with exception of the crank. I hop4e you didn't think I may the two confused.
-
My 05 People 50 2T with approx 9500k has absolutely no movement at the end of the final shaft with or without the rear wheel installed. I checked the Kymco People 50 service manual and axle shaft runout service limit is 0.2mm. Your 0.04" is approx 1.0mm so you appear to be over limit. Also, under final drive trouble shooting it indicates "abnormal noise - worn, seized or chipped gears, worn bearing".
As I recall, when you apply the rear brake it helps with the noise? If so, maybe brake shoes against the brake drum is taking some strain off the final drive bearings and gears which decreases the noise some, I don't know. I think your final drive may be worn-out.
-
As I recall, when you apply the rear brake it helps with the noise? If so, maybe brake shoes against the brake drum is taking some strain off the final drive bearings and gears which decreases the noise some, I don't know. I think your final drive may be worn-out.
Please re-read what I've posted. It has nothing to do with the brakes. I've already gone through all this. I've even removed the brake shoes and still have the noise. Why the focus on the rear wheel when the noise is emitting from the alternator?
-
My 05 People 50 2T with approx 9500k has absolutely no movement at the end of the final shaft with or without the rear wheel installed. I checked the Kymco People 50 service manual and axle shaft runout service limit is 0.2mm. Your 0.04" is approx 1.0mm so you appear to be over limit. Also, under final drive trouble shooting it indicates "abnormal noise - worn, seized or chipped gears, worn bearing".
You're talking about shaft end play with it assembled. I said I was checking for bearing wear. With the shaft sticking out of bearing (alone) I got that movement.
-
I stick with my first vote and add that the bearings in the clutch could be doing the same thing. I read that this noise is simultaneous with power loss indicating the bike is moving letting the clutch off the hook. Splitting the case will reveal whether it is main bearings or not. Sideplay or runout of both alternator end and variator end of crank should validate splitting the case.
Karl
-
"Yesterday, I noticed I could start off holding the rear break and prevent the rattle." Does it still do this?
-
Does it still do this?
Next to last sentence in my first post. " I can start the scooter, give it some gas to make it produce the noise. The wheels aren't turning yet, but touch the brake and instantly the motor speeds up and smooths out for the most part. It doesn't go away completely." Yes, this is the way it stands right now. Be sure to read the sentence just above that.
-
Almost everyone with a modern scoot with a nearly horizontal cylinder has noted how smooth the idle is if no brakes are squeezed and how they vibrate when the rear brake is squeezed. I am guessing the rear brake is squeezed and wildly guessing it has something to do with a bad bearing "getting better" from the subsequent vibration. My vote is still one or both main bearings and the only way to start the verification is to get to each end of the crank and wiggle the exposed end up and down, forward and rearward: there should be NO movement.
Karl
-
Have you pulled the stator and variator to expose the crankshaft on both ends and tested it for end play, the way CROSSBOLT has suggested?
-
Almost everyone with a modern scoot with a nearly horizontal cylinder has noted how smooth the idle is if no brakes are squeezed and how they vibrate when the rear brake is squeezed. I am guessing the rear brake is squeezed and wildly guessing it has something to do with a bad bearing "getting better" from the subsequent vibration. My vote is still one or both main bearings and the only way to start the verification is to get to each end of the crank and wiggle the exposed end up and down, forward and rearward: there should be NO movement.
Karl
Except I'm not squeezing the brake. I'm barely moving the lever enough to light the brake light. It's not nearly enough to engage the brake shoes. If you read what I posted, I explained I suggested the same and removed the brake shoes. The noise remained. If it had anything to do with brake shoes engaging, it wouldn't happen without brake shoes installed, would it? The same applies to the "subsequent vibration". Without brake shoes or the bike even the bike moving there's no subsequent vibration. I'm gonna check the crank shaft end play just to eliminate the possibility, but I seriously doubt I'm gonna find anything. I believe, whatever the hell it is, is electrical. I don't understand how, but I do. A short circuit causing misfires maybe? I've been through all the mechanical stuff stuff that could produce a noise like this. Remember, the scooter only has 3300 miles on it. How can it have so much crankshaft endplay to produce that noise with no miles on it? I'm a tool and die maker with 40 years experience. I know worn parts when I see them. I wouldn't be in this forum right now if it was just a worn out part.
-
Have you pulled the stator and variator to expose the crankshaft on both ends and tested it for end play, the way CROSSBOLT has suggested?
No, but I'm going to I'm gonna tear everything down and give you an accurate answer just to eliminate the possibility so that you and anyone else will stop guessing this bike with only 3300 miles is completely worn out. I'm hear for answers, not guesswork. You haven't read and understood what I've posted prior yet.
-
Sorry not more helpful, we are trying to understand you. Please report back, very curious what's giving you trouble. Seems like you had trouble with CDI, maybe cut the wrong wire and replaced, maybe that's what's causing your trouble? As I recall, your scooter has never run well. My 1st Kymco scooter didn't even run, after a lot of work, runs like a top, good luck on yours, they are great scooters IMO. Cheers
-
Sorry I missed the part about the brake shoes. That blows my theory all to pieces, doesn't it? How about voltage checks, smooth and rough? I don't have a foggy idea but that might be a start. Yeah, 3300 miles is just close to being broken in.
Karl
-
Been thinking and not thinking about this set of symptoms. It has taken me to grounds. Since it is related to the brake light filament which is pretty high current, I'm suspecting your ignition is somehow grounding through that bulb. Far fetched for certain.
Do the voltage checks while smooth and rough. Maybe that will give a logical start point.
Karl
-
Do the voltage checks while smooth and rough.
Oh, that sounds easy. If I knew how to, I wouldn't be here. Do you think you could elaborate just a little?
-
Sure. I would start at the battery terminals. just hook the multimeter leads red to positive (+) and black (-) to negative, record the volts when smooth, then make it run rough and record the volts. Then I recommend you hook to the ignition coil primary and do the same thing, write it all down. Usually there are two skinny wires that are the primary and one fat one that is the plug wire. Meanwhile, someone on here may have a wiring diagram so we can see if there is some kind of regulator that may be malfunctioning.
You are the best one for this job since it is your bike. This is regardless of your electrical experience. First, we all here wanna help you back in the saddle. Second is to help round out anyone's knowledge from the pool of old guys on this forum. Lastly is to improve everyone's trouble shooting skills which includes reading carefully what the symptoms are!
We will wait for both what you find and any question you may have.
Karl
-
We will wait for both what you find and any question you may have.
Karl
Thank you Karl.
I have some things to do today, but will do this and report back. Sorry if I sounded like a smartass. I'm just getting very frustrated with this scooter and some of the advice I get from members that don't take time to read what I've already done and quickly assume the scooter is worn out.
-
Believe me when I say I understand the frustration. Good weather is upon us and the ride won't work! Also our little "miss" on your original post! We go from here, "To infinity and beyond" as Buzz Lightyear might say....
Karl
-
I think you replaced the CDI, didn't you? Did you replace with OEM Kymco part? Did the strange noise start after you replaced CDI, or did the scooter always have the strange noise since your have owned it?
-
Have you pulled the exhaust and looked up the exhaust port? If the piston and cylinder looks good, probably crank bearings OK IMO. Also, could do a compression test, but requires a tool. 3000 miles is a long way, if scooter was run without oil/ or defective oil before you got it. Cheers
-
I think you replaced the CDI, didn't you? Did you replace with OEM Kymco part? Did the strange noise start after you replaced CDI, or did the scooter always have the strange noise since your have owned it?
Yes, I replaced the CDI after inadvertently destroying it attempting to de-restrict it. No, it's not OEM, but it works fine. I followed another members advice on the one to buy. Here's the link: http://www.partsforscooters.com/169-158-Honda-Dio-CDI?sc=34&category=132416 (http://www.partsforscooters.com/169-158-Honda-Dio-CDI?sc=34&category=132416) Yes, the noise was present before I replaced it.
Thanks for your time
-
Have you pulled the exhaust and looked up the exhaust port? If the piston and cylinder looks good, probably crank bearings OK IMO. Also, could do a compression test, but requires a tool. 3000 miles is a long way, if scooter was run without oil/ or defective oil before you got it. Cheers
Again, I mentioned in the first post I've installed a Mallosi 70cc BBK. It has 344 miles on it. The noise was p[resent before I did this also.
-
Usually there are two skinny wires that are the primary and one fat one that is the plug wire. Meanwhile, someone on here may have a wiring diagram so we can see if there is some kind of regulator that may be malfunctioning.
Karl
I admit I'm lacking in the electrical department, but I can follow a diagram. I've wired a few Harley's from scratch, but my wiring harnesses were simplistic, to say the least. They didn't short out and when you pushed the button, it cranked. I have a wiring diagram in the PDF service manual I downloaded. I'm thinking about the regulator you mentioned. I'll look into that also.
-
I'd say you are way ahead of the game with that experience and this project should be a mere challenge. The toughest thing will be the connections to the system you want to test. Reliable connections that remain connected while you duplicate the symptom. You will figure that out.
Karl
-
I am pretty challenged when it comes to electrical too. My 1st scooter didn't have a spark so I read the forum, got a cheap $20 multimeter at WalMart, and started testing the wiring. Long story short, I concluded you need a fairly expensive multimeter to do the testing, probably several $100's. Basically, my multimeter told me everything was bad, except for the coil. After that experience, I still don't know very much about electrical.
The battery was dead (don't need a tester to figure that one out), but the advice said it should run without battery. I finally bought a new battery and everything started working, amazing. Your problem is probably very simple, like a corroded connection. May just need to unplug a connection and plug it back, I don't know. I guess if you know how to use a tester, you could zero in on the bad connection, but I am like you I guess, not that easy IMO. Good luck, if you keep at it, you will get it fixed eventually.
-
OK Karl and Chaz,
We're getting somewhere. I don't know where or how to interpret it, but this thing just went from strange to deeply weird. I connected cheapazz multi-meter to the battery and set up my phone with remote button to trip the shutter. ( I knew I didn't have enough hands before I started ) The scooter is on the porch with the front wheel against the wall and both wheels on the ground. After letting it warm up, the first pic is volts at idle. the second is revving it enough to hear the noise, then on the third I just touch the rear brake. Now remember, the wheel isn't turning and I'd have to pull the lever another 1/2 inch to start moving the brake shoes.
Please tell me you know what could cause it or what to look for now.
-
The meter is fine, just whatcha need. Idle volts are fine, justwhat I would expect. Second picture shows over 17 volts, WAY too high. The last pic shows a normal voltage, IMO. That would speak to me (YELL to me!) that your problem is definitely caused by over voltage. Now is there a voltage regulator in there somewhere?
Karl
-
I have no clue. That would be very cool if just need to replace regulator?
I am curious about your BBK, what brand? How did the OEM cylinder/ piston look? What carb you running, still using OEM carb?
-
Just had another thing occur to me: when all is normal does your headlight come on? Does it turn on or do you have to operate a switch to make it illuminate?
Karl
-
Just had another thing occur to me: when all is normal does your headlight come on? Does it turn on or do you have to operate a switch to make it illuminate?
Karl
The headlight come on when it starts. From what I read in the manual, I think all alternator models are that way. I can't turn off the headlight.
-
I thought all motorcycles and scoots were that way, just wanted to be sure. The next question is does the headlight work directly off the alternator?
Karl
-
I have no clue. That would be very cool if just need to replace regulator?
I am curious about your BBK, what brand? How did the OEM cylinder/ piston look? What carb you running, still using OEM carb?
According to the manual, I do have a faulty regulator. I have a replacement on order now.
As for the BBK, I ordered a Hoca kit. I'm using the stock carb and exhaust, although I had to rejet the carb. I haven't got it right yet because of the problem I'm having with the (hopefully) the regulator.
-
I thought all motorcycles and scoots were that way, just wanted to be sure. The next question is does the headlight work directly off the alternator?
Karl
Seeing how I can't burn the headlight without the engine running, I'd say yes. Not all are that way. All of the Harley's I've done pulled headlight power from the battery.
-
I kinda thought the headlight ran directly off the alternator as do most of the smaller bikes. My DT300i headlight does run off the battery like the Harley. I am concluding that since the brake light pulls the voltage into the proper range that the regulator is the bad guy. You probably used the resistance checks from the service manual to determine the regulator was the cause. You are rapidly becoming the man to see on this type of problem!
Karl
-
I kinda thought the headlight ran directly off the alternator as do most of the smaller bikes. My DT300i headlight does run off the battery like the Harley. I am concluding that since the brake light pulls the voltage into the proper range that the regulator is the bad guy. You probably used the resistance checks from the service manual to determine the regulator was the cause. You are rapidly becoming the man to see on this type of problem!
Karl
Yeah, lol. I've learned a hell of a lot more than I ever wanted to.
-
I am running Malossi BBK, stock carb, and Tecnigas NextR pipe. Be careful, I don't know about Hoca kit, but my Malossi kit runs really hot with stock carb, even with very large main jet. I recommend CHT gauge to monitor. I use trail tech tto temperature gauge like this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/361486885849?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/361486885849?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true)
Good luck, looks like you are getting close to fixing it! Cheers
-
I recommend CHT gauge to monitor. I use trail tech tto temperature gauge like this one
Good luck, looks like you are getting close to fixing it! Cheers
I have a small IR thermometer. I can pull the spark plug boot and get the head temp. No problems as of yet, but that's going to change when I get the high flow air cleaner and finish jetting it.
-
When is the regulator supposed to be in? I'm just eaten up with anticipation on this!
Karl
-
When is the regulator supposed to be in? I'm just eaten up with anticipation on this!
Karl
I think you're as excited as I am. It's supposed to be here on the 8th. Don't worry, if it fixes my problem and I'm done hoopin 'n hollerin, I'll be here to post it.
-
OK, thanks! I am breathing deeper now. Calming down......
Karl
-
News flash! The regulator wasn't the problem. I'm going to checking grounds and connectors. For the first time today, I noticed my headlight gets brighter when I apply the rear brake. Bummer.
-
Crap on the regulator NOT being the problem! Chasing grounds is good though. Was the higher voltage present with new regulator when you would speed the engine?
Karl
-
Was the higher voltage present with new regulator when you would speed the engine?
Karl
I didn't even check. Probably is, but I imagine when I find the wiring fault, that will fix it.
-
Any news on this, blufx?
Karll
-
I'm afraid not Karl. Not yet anyway. I have to rearrange so I can bring the scooter inside and just ain't got around to it yet. I need to get a move on. I'm gonna have places toi go soon. I'll keep you posted.
Mark
-
Thanks! I really get it! I have so much to do I don't know where to start!
Karl
-
Karl,
take a look at this diagram. Is there any reason why I can't run a lead from the pulser coil to the ignition coil and run the engine? This is just for testing. I have no intentions of riding it like that. I just want to isolate it from all wiring and hear it run.
P.S. Sending a PM
-
The CDI or ECU modifies the pulse coil output, adjusts for timing PLUS amplifies the signal so I don't think it will produce a spark.
Karl
-
You are correct. It didn't. I have it inside, and all the front wiring exposed. I'm flying blind with overly simplistic wiring diagram, but I think I'm getting close. It's only the rear brake switch that affects the motor running. Also I mentioned my headlight gets brighter when I touch the rear brake, but not the front.
-
I attempted a quick disconnect of the rear brake switch which only made it more confusing. The reason being I never considered the starter motor safety switches that also double as brake light switches. Besides scratching my head more, now I'm thinking of pulling the starter Bendix just to eliminate that possibility. Neither the teeth of the starter gear or the variator appear to have been clashing, but I can't help but wonder if the starter motor is somehow involved.
Input. I need input!
-
The two switches on the brake levers are mechanically and electrically identical. Usually the two wires that run from the switches to connectors on the main harness are green and black. The greens go together in the same connector and the blacks go to their connector putting the switches in parallel (OR in computerese) like the diagram. The two wires from each switch are usually housed in a tube or sheath of shrinkable stuff. One of these may be chafed and grounded in the handlebar area. I suspect the rear one is the culprit. If things got wierder could be they were connected wrong at the harness. All either switch is supposed to do is light the tail lamp and energize the starter relay/solenoid. What is happening to make the stop bulb brighter is a mystery to me.
Karl
-
Hello blufx, did you ever remove the stator flywheel?, make sure nothing loose underneath it? Yes, take out the starter bendix, scooter should start easy with kickstarter, I never use my electric starter, just kick it, so should be able to test for that issue. Cheers
-
I think we can disregard that last post altogether. Karl, I'm gonna have to lean on you again. I found something, but I don't know how to interpret it. I can't right now, but I'll post what I found later.
-
You lean all you want or need to, brother! I will await the next message.
Karl
-
I was freaking over incorrect readings. Look at pic 1. It shows probing plug terminals and ground, but instructs checking between plug terminals. Regardless of what the book says I don't have a green wire there. It's blue with yellow trace. Pic 2. Karl, can you tell me what number to select on the meter? Pic 3
-
Pics 1 and 2 missing. Pic 3 show good setting for testing switch action. That 200 ohm scale will show how GOOD the contact is: it should show that "1" when switch open or not activated and should show .1 to .3 ohms when switch closed. However, while on that scale, short the two meter leads together to see what the resistance the leads have. Should be .1 to .3 ohms and STEADY. Clean both ends of meter leads if the screen shows numbers jumpin' all over the place. Replace leads if cleaning does not change the jumpin' around. Replace meter if new leads does not fix jumpin' around! Now assuming you have a good test of switch action (called continuity) do the same test on the highest scale. Careful! That highest scale will actually measure the resistance of your skin! So don't touch the metal of the probes. You should get zero when you activate the switch. You should get the "1" when switch is open. The problem here is you may get some value other than infinity ("1"). Above 200000 ohms should be OK. Below is not good and the source of this between those two wires should be eliminated. Go do the same idea with the harness if these two pairs test OK. Just make sure the battery is disconnected before any ohms tests are made! Holler when more info or clarification needed.
Karl
-
Here's the missing pics. Reading your reply, Karl, I think I'm going to have to use another meter. I'll look into it further today. Which reminds me of an off-topic question I'll PM to you later
-
Obviously, I've put this on the back burner. In the mean time, I've been working on jetting after disconnecting the rear brake light. A couple of days ago, I reconnected it and the noise is gone. I don't know what it was, but it'll probably come back. I'm now putting a 19mm carb on it.