KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: ScooterCommuter on April 02, 2010, 09:31:42 PM
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All of a sudden my agility 50 has started giving problems starting - it fires usually on the first try, catches, then just fades away and dies, smelling like its flooded itself and at that point I may as well start walking for the bus stop. Pulled the carb and did all the usual stuff cleaning it out and looking for problems, nothing of note. First time after putting it back in, no problems - fired up and ran just fine. Once it had sat in my garage overnight, back to the same issue. Its been running fine day after day until this, only diff is its suddenly got a lot warmer overnight (midwest) so whatever it is, seems like it could be temperature related... (or I got some bad gas last fill)
I'm sure its something real simple I'm overlooking. Any thoughts?
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check your valves make sure they are set to .04mm i will bet my 2 front teeth its your problem
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All of a sudden my agility 50 has started giving problems starting - it fires usually on the first try, catches, then just fades away and dies, smelling like its flooded itself and at that point I may as well start walking for the bus stop. Pulled the carb and did all the usual stuff cleaning it out and looking for problems, nothing of note. First time after putting it back in, no problems - fired up and ran just fine. Once it had sat in my garage overnight, back to the same issue. Its been running fine day after day until this, only diff is its suddenly got a lot warmer overnight (midwest) so whatever it is, seems like it could be temperature related... (or I got some bad gas last fill)
I'm sure its something real simple I'm overlooking. Any thoughts?
..okay, lets start off with a lil more info...what year is your scoot..4-stroke? (there are some A50 2-strokes)..how many miles...any modifications such as derestriction, etc...
..i've experienced similar symptoms before...
peace
..oh, and Welcome to th' Forum!!!
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..okay, lets start off with a lil more info...what year is your scoot..4-stroke? (there are some A50 2-strokes)..how many miles...any modifications such as derestriction, etc...
..i've experienced similar symptoms before...
peace
..oh, and Welcome to th' Forum!!!
bought new in 08 and now has only a couple thousand on the clock, 4stroke, stock apart from putting in the derestricted variator boss and 82 main jet they were kind enough to supply from the factory. No cdi cut yet but thats on my list :) The existing changes are good for an indicated 40mph, which is enough to keep up with traffic and potentially catch a ticket in some places on my daily commute. (The low mileage is because it was originally going to be my wifes ride, but even the little A50 turned out to be a little large for her, she dropped it early on and in the process messed up her knee for 6 months so it sat in the garage until spring last year when I grabbed it and left her the car.)
Thanks for the welcome - been lurking here reading for months, finally had to sign up if only to see the pics of your little beastie :D
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check your valves make sure they are set to .04mm i will bet my 2 front teeth its your problem
Damn, you're probably right.. I think I forgot to check them last time I gave the beastie a check over. Guess I'm pulling the valve cover today, if I can find my feelers in the mess that is my garage... Sorry, but I'm not taking the bet though, I lost enough teeth playing rugby in my misspent youth that I'm not going to hazard any of the remaining ones :)
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Hey scooterc, Put in a NEW spark plug too. Cheap insurance. The fuel tank may also have some debris from sitting so I would add a new in line filter, and change that out after a few (3-4) tankfulls.
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..i agree with zombie, dude...start with new fuel and a new plug and get prepared to take the carburetor apart for a thorough cleaning....
;D
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..wait..did this just start?..have you been riding it?
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well it wasnt sitting with fuel in it - the couple months I didnt ride it over this last winter it got drained first.. So no "old fuel" issues, I've been commuting on it this year for just under a month without issues and its on its third tankful. Valves were indeed a teensy bit off, fixed that without benefit, and as for carb cleaning, I pulled it apart and did that when started doing this earlier in the week. Plug is new, and it gives a nice meaty spark if I crank the bike with it held against the block. Fuel is getting to the carb just fine so I guess its time to pull it apart again and look to see if I missed anything the first time. Damn this sucks, its a lovely day to ride too... :(
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..wait..did this just start?..have you been riding it?
yep. no hassle for weeks and then overnight as soon we got the sudden warmup, it started misbehaving.
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..have you looked at your air filter?..and the induction tube into the airbox...make sure nothing's made itself a home up in there...lol..
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well it wasnt sitting with fuel in it - the couple months I didnt ride it over this last winter it got drained first.. So no "old fuel" issues, I've been commuting on it this year for just under a month without issues and its on its third tankful. Valves were indeed a teensy bit off, fixed that without benefit, and as for carb cleaning, I pulled it apart and did that when started doing this earlier in the week. Plug is new, and it gives a nice meaty spark if I crank the bike with it held against the block. Fuel is getting to the carb just fine so I guess its time to pull it apart again and look to see if I missed anything the first time. Damn this sucks, its a lovely day to ride too... :(
..what did you set your valve clearance to?
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...have you used any gas from a can?
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..have you looked at your air filter?..and the induction tube into the airbox...make sure nothing's made itself a home up in there...lol..
yep and it didnt look bad.. I can feel it pulling in air if I cup my hand over the airbox inlet and crank it. I DID however find something up with the induction tube - no unwanted guests, but somehow I hadnt noticed that the factory had ziptied the tube to the frame tightly enough to restrict it a fair bit. After giving the obligatory facepalm to the idiot that assembled it that way and another to myself for not spotting that in a year of riding and maintaining it I fixed that with a more suitably sized ziptie yesterday.
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First fill of this year the gas was in a plastic can for long enough for me to drive from the gas station home, took it out empty, brought it home full and emptied it into the bike. Since then its been refilled twice direct from the pump. valve clearance is 0.04mm on both, per the book and umpteen million postings on here.
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First fill of this year the gas was in a plastic can for long enough for me to drive from the gas station home, took it out empty, brought it home full and emptied it into the bike. Since then its been refilled twice direct from the pump. valve clearance is 0.04mm on both, per the book and umpteen million postings on here.
..i know right?!..
..dude, the one time i used fuel from, what i thought was a clean can, i had this same problem off and on for a cpl of months...
..bought a new fuel filter..
..pulled and cleaned my carb probably 6 different times..Autobystarter retaining clip is a bithc....used 5 or 6 spray cans of contact cleaner in the process...(nifty little tube allow you to get up into the ports)...
..it got so aggravating that one day i grabbed hold of my carb and just shook th' hell out of it and the dang thing fired right up...
:o
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...got to where i could clean my carb in about 15 minutes tho...i was having to do this before headin out to work at 6am...lol..
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...got to where i could clean my carb in about 15 minutes tho...i was having to do this before headin out to work at 6am...lol..
I aint that dedicated - although if I have to ride the damn bus much more (at $4.50 per day for the privilege) that could easily change!
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The colder to warm got my attention. There may be a small amount of condensation in the tank, and the fuel bowl on the carb. the way you stated it ran fine after cleaning reinforces this for me. Try adding some Sea Foam to the tank. Double the amount they recommend. Even one drop of water is enough to block these tiny jets. To eliminate most electrical problems, check for spark as soon as it stalls.
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The colder to warm got my attention. There may be a small amount of condensation in the tank, and the fuel bowl on the carb. the way you stated it ran fine after cleaning reinforces this for me. Try adding some Sea Foam to the tank. Double the amount they recommend. Even one drop of water is enough to block these tiny jets. To eliminate most electrical problems, check for spark as soon as it stalls.
well I just cleaned it again and made a run down to the nearest supply point for scoot parts and picked up a filter.. so I'll put it all back together and see :) I'll throw some seafoam in it too just to be safe.. shining a light down the filler cap didnt reveal any significant quantity of water in the tank but as you say it only takes a microliter or so, which of course one wouldnt see. With the high dewpoints we've had in the evenings recently that may well be a factor.
I did find one anomaly this time because THIS time I wasnt just cleaning it I was going through the full inspection routine - I put my multimeter on the bystarter and its base resistance is a tad high - book says to replace if its over 10 ohms, this ones reading 13. Connect it to power and it cycles according to spec though. I cant get a new one too quickly so I hope I dont have a bad one.
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That thought had crossed my mind as well. If the meter is properly zeroed, and the reading is hi... replace it. The increased resistance will affect the operation. Even if it "cycles" correctly I am sure the Timing aspect is off
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That thought had crossed my mind as well. If the meter is properly zeroed, and the reading is hi... replace it. The increased resistance will affect the operation. Even if it "cycles" correctly I am sure the Timing aspect is off
Well, it fired up with a few kicks and ran ok. I took it out and put about 20 miles on it to make certain it was nicely warmed up before re-checking the idle speed and to give the battery a good charge which coincidentally (not) took me past a gas station I know I can trust so I was able to top it off with 3/4 of a tank of known-good gas too. I'll put an order in for a new bystarter and hope I can keep starting it until that arrives.
The proof of the pudding will of course be tomorrow when it's sat overnight again. Fingers crossed.
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..good luck with it...mine drove me up th wall till it cleared up...
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Thanks for the help guys, it fired up ok this morning so I'm hoping the underlying problem is sorted, now I just need to retweak everything. At anything other than idle its fine.. but the idle has gotten a bit rough so I'm guessing the mixture is off. Kinda hard to tell which way though.. the tendency to slow down and and stall out sounds lean-ish but the response on returning to idle from part throttle (often needs a "blip" to settle back down to idle after the throttle is closed slowly) makes me think rich.
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May be lean, and the blip is adding enough to settle it down. Simply adjust the mix screw 1/4 turn at a time either direction (after warming the engine). This may take as much as 2 full turns, so keep track of the setting. If there is no response from the mix screw the idle circuit may still have some debris in it. Once you get the fastest rpm's on the mix screw the idle speed screw can be set to the desired rpm's. Glad to hear your on the right road. These tiny jetting set ups can get frustrating, it is all in how much patience you have for it.
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May be lean, and the blip is adding enough to settle it down. Simply adjust the mix screw 1/4 turn at a time either direction (after warming the engine). This may take as much as 2 full turns, so keep track of the setting. If there is no response from the mix screw the idle circuit may still have some debris in it. Once you get the fastest rpm's on the mix screw the idle speed screw can be set to the desired rpm's. Glad to hear your on the right road. These tiny jetting set ups can get frustrating, it is all in how much patience you have for it.
I hear ya man. Its a darn good thing I found this place, I'm not at the level of ignorance I started with last time I was maintaining a bike engine but that was 20 years ago and with my knowledge that rusty and far out of date its good to have so many wrench-heads with knowledge of this particular beastie around to refresh it and reassure me I'm going in the right direction :D I do remember that I always hated having to mess with the mix though, so many ways to screw it up and either drop the performance in the toilet or just plain knacker the engine.
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..the good thing about this carb, is that the mix screw only effects idle, and just off idle fuel mixture..
..everything else is jet size...
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Speaking for myself, That's why I'm here posting. While it's harder to help trouble shoot over the NET, it's better than nothing, or the local wrench heads in most cases. From the Rugby referance earlier, and the Knacker on this post I'm guessing Wales? Close?
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I hear ya man. Its a darn good thing I found this place, I'm not at the level of ignorance I started with last time I was maintaining a bike engine but that was 20 years ago and with my knowledge that rusty and far out of date its good to have so many wrench-heads with knowledge of this particular beastie around to refresh it and reassure me I'm going in the right direction :D I do remember that I always hated having to mess with the mix though, so many ways to screw it up and either drop the performance in the toilet or just plain knacker the engine.
..i like that term...beastie...aaarrggh....
;D
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Speaking for myself, That's why I'm here posting. While it's harder to help trouble shoot over the NET, it's better than nothing, or the local wrench heads in most cases. From the Rugby referance earlier, and the Knacker on this post I'm guessing Wales? Close?
English by birth, significant portions of Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Manx in the ancestry (comes from having most of my recent ancestors from the Liverpool area) been living in the states (Minnesota) for the last 11 years... but yeah, I retain enough accent and brit figures of speech the locals here never mistake me for one of 'em :)
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Thank Gawd aye! I'm American by birth, but Irish to the core. There were 2 Kings in the Mc family, but that's another forum. Sorry about the short tail tho. (Manx)
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Progress has most definitely been made :)
3/4 of a turn richer on the pilot screw and its now idling smoothly. Only glitch its got left is it does still like to slow down and die if you blip the throttle from idle and dont roll off it smoothly but thats at least livable with given that its performing smoothly otherwise. I need to improve my technique to be smoother on the throttle anyway (rode it for long enough in its stock restricted state got into the bad habit of what we used to call an "italian throttle" - on or off) Assuming it hasnt been saving up its misbehavior for tomorrow morning its coming to work with me as usual.. If I end up pushing it back from downtown Minneapolis tomorrow evening you'll hear about it here ;)
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Thank Gawd aye! I'm American by birth, but Irish to the core. There were 2 Kings in the Mc family, but that's another forum. Sorry about the short tail tho. (Manx)
If you ever get the chance to travel to the "old country" and the possibility comes up for a visit to the Isle of Man, theres two really good reasons why you should NOT pass it up. One is that the Isle of Man is unique - its the only place in the world that was settled by both Norse and Celts and they didnt fight. They cooperated and eventually merged into a distinct population. There is no sense of humor like that of the manx, anywhere in the world. For example, they will tell you perfectly sincerely that there are no rats on the island. Not one. However, if you are all skeptical and wander down to the docks and point at the critter disappearing behind the packing crates and ask "No rats? Whats that then?" "Oh dont mind them, thats one of the longtailed folk. We share the island with them."
The second reason (which makes this comment forum-relevant... just) is to take the mountain tramway from Laxey up Snaefell.. On a clear day from the summit they say you can see 5 kingdoms (England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the Kingdom of Heaven) but the stop just before the summit is where you want to get off, so you can wander the Motorcycle Museum. Its as close to a shrine to "going insanely fast on two wheels" as you'll ever see, only a few yards back from the road which once per year gets lined with straw bales and old tires as it becomes part of the course for the TT races. Although the lineage of bikes and scooters has diverged a little over the years, here you'll find the common ancestors.
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Scootcomute, You have just given me ANOTHER reason to believe there is more good in the world than bad! However I believe I came from the Fighting Irish... Line the course w/ rocks, and pave it w/ glass cause I'm gonna run it naked! I'll see you at the bottom, If you make it! Heavenly father, please give us the wisdom to avoid conflict w/ our enemies. If you can't see your way to do that ... at least break their ankles so we can recognize them by their limp!
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Scootcomute, You have just given me ANOTHER reason to believe there is more good in the world than bad! However I believe I came from the Fighting Irish... Line the course w/ rocks, and pave it w/ glass cause I'm gonna run it naked! I'll see you at the bottom, If you make it! Heavenly father, please give us the wisdom to avoid conflict w/ our enemies. If you can't see your way to do that ... at least break their ankles so we can recognize them by their limp!
"Pass me my lightsaber, its the one that says 'badass motherf***** on the hilt'"
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If you ever get the chance to travel to the "old country" and the possibility comes up for a visit to the Isle of Man, theres two really good reasons why you should NOT pass it up. One is that the Isle of Man is unique - its the only place in the world that was settled by both Norse and Celts and they didnt fight.
Isle of Man also has one of the most dangerous natural race tracks in the world.
Another one is just few kilometers from the place where I live - Preluk. Now it is defunct and unfortunately not in use anymore.
It was considered to be too dangerous so moto racing was moved 30 kms away, to new Grobnik race track around 1979.
In case somebody is interested...
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/676/reluk.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/676/reluk.jpg)
http://images.opatija.net/povijest/000071-001.jpg (http://images.opatija.net/povijest/000071-001.jpg)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.liburnija.net/wp-content/uploads/preluk_moto.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.liburnija.net/video-moto-utrke-preluk/&usg=__0AS1fYvulfpZm90b4NdkJqRPYgw=&h=195&w=200&sz=8&hl=hr&start=2&itbs=1&tbnid=J8bXwS04AcDd_M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpreluk%2Butrka%26hl%3Dhr%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1 (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.liburnija.net/wp-content/uploads/preluk_moto.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.liburnija.net/video-moto-utrke-preluk/&usg=__0AS1fYvulfpZm90b4NdkJqRPYgw=&h=195&w=200&sz=8&hl=hr&start=2&itbs=1&tbnid=J8bXwS04AcDd_M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpreluk%2Butrka%26hl%3Dhr%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1)
Preluk race track is now a part of regular road between cities of Rijeka and Opatija. I learned how to drive a car properly on that road. Between 1993 and 2000 I used to go there daily, usually in the night or late in the evening, and learn how to drive, understeer, oversteer, basically, how to control the car. The best granite asphalt you could find anywhere.
Unfortunately, the road is now partially in a very bad condition, and half of the track is covered with new pavement which is much WORSE than 60 year old one... so I do not go there anymore.
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What a beautiful place! Thanks Axy. Sooo much to do, and see. Sooo little time
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And sooo few money :))
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I just touched the screen...AMEN BROTHER!
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Well, it got me to and from work again... :D
Interesting observation on the two trips... Morning run and evening run were about 20 degrees diff in air temp (Farenheit) The scoots still not quite right but its not right in two different ways on each trip.
Morning run, cooler and denser air, it idles high when the bystarter is engaged (almost enough to make it creep) and acts like its getting the perfect mix and rarin' to go.. suggesting that its still idling a little lean when warmed up, but at the end of the trip, fully warmed up it really didnt act that way.
Evening run, warmer and less dense so making the mix richer still.. No fast idle, even on first start with the bystarter engaged but its clearly warming up rich unlike the morning. Once its warmed up we're back to "normal" behavior at idle. Nice stable low revs and running even.
Morning run it tended to bog when nailing the throttle from idle, evening run not a trace of it.
Mystic Meg says theres a jumbo box of clean plugs and a lot of chops in my future.. But you know... This is a midwest spring. Temperatures are changing fast enough that if its this sensitive I'm going to get it dialed in just right and a month later have it all to do again... maybe I just need to find a decent medium-level setting and just get peak performance for two months of the year.
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There are several AG/50 owners that have posted the same observations. Might be a slightly larger carb is needed for these scoots? It appears they run right on a razor edge w/ carb. tuning. Chops at wot are the most important in my book. The rest of the rpm range can be done thru adjustments vs parts.
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There are several AG/50 owners that have posted the same observations. Might be a slightly larger carb is needed for these scoots? It appears they run right on a razor edge w/ carb. tuning. Chops at wot are the most important in my book. The rest of the rpm range can be done thru adjustments vs parts.
yep. although until I cut the cdi and get rid of the rev limit theres a question over whether WOT is really WOT. :)
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Oh yeah! No doubt!
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Tell ya Zombie, I think you're right about the carb being a tad undersized. All it would take is a two or four mm increase in the carb size to reduce the sensitivity.. extra volume, less tweaky. Hmm.... DAMN IT.. you're going to get me into putting a keihin on this and I dont want that level of hassle...
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It may get a little involved, what w/ changing the throttle cable also. That part I don't know. I do see a new filter/jets along w/ that. Then maybe cvt time? Or as Jprestonion would suggest "Leave well enough alone". I like option 1, but that's just me. I have seen the 125cc go cart racing set-up's using a wing mounted on the intake side of the carb. that directs the flow down across the jets. The idea is a more uniform flow to reduce any pulsing in the fuel charge. Something could be rigged up easily to find out! It is only 1.5-2 degrees facing down at the jets. Maybe another Million $ idea for free!
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LOL... I'm not going to do much of anything this year. For now I'm happy enough with it able to keep up with the traffic on my commute and having enough guts to get me OUT of trouble, having got me in.
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It may get a little involved, what w/ changing the throttle cable also. That part I don't know. I do see a new filter/jets along w/ that. Then maybe cvt time? Or as Jprestonion would suggest "Leave well enough alone". I like option 1, but that's just me. I have seen the 125cc go cart racing set-up's using a wing mounted on the intake side of the carb. that directs the flow down across the jets. The idea is a more uniform flow to reduce any pulsing in the fuel charge. Something could be rigged up easily to find out! It is only 1.5-2 degrees facing down at the jets. Maybe another Million $ idea for free!
..tell me more please...lol..
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Here is the closest I could find for an example. They call it an x wing. The unit My budy uses is a single horizontal plane. Billy Meenie is the fella I am refefing to, and he swears by the effect it has on maintaining a steady flow on the jets. http://www.boyesen.com/cwo/Home (http://www.boyesen.com/cwo/Home)
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"http://richstaylordporting.com/vintage_Venturi.html"
..like this one??
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I've seen those Boyesen dividers. Anyone have any experience with them? It makes a little sense as to how it works, just wondering if it's noticeable?
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Slinger, Exactly! Shaka, Not $90.00 worth. Make one from an old P.A. horn or a speaker cone, and a piece of anything scrap. The concept is to eliminate the pulsing of the expansion chamber on a 2t, or the cycle of the valves on a 4t. The reality is the pulse is still there but the jets work more efficiently both before, and during the "cycle". I have never run one on any bike/scoot/engine. It's just something I have heard of from others. I guess the finer the tune on your engine the more noticeable the effect would be.