KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: shawgb on March 22, 2010, 07:26:04 PM
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Hi all -
Well, I've had SUCH amazing responses using this forum in the past - I'm giving it a shot again...
So - the battery on my '06 Grandvista 250 didn't hold a charge thru the winter.
I've got the battery out of the bike, and I have a charger (it even says "smart charger" on it!), but I don't have the instructions for the dang thing.
Okay - first, it wants you to select the type of battery. The 3 choices (obviously abbreviated) are WET, GEL and AGM. Then you select charging rate, and the 3 choices are 2, 10 and 15 amps.
Sadly - I DUNNO EITHER PIECE OF INFORMATION! And I'd like to keep from causing an explosion, if possible. ;D
Of course I realize the battery may have had it - but since I have this charger I'd like to give it the ol college try.
Any help will be HUGELY appreciated!
The users on this forum totally RULE!
Thanks
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Without sounding like a tutorial: wet is the plain old lead acid battery that most of us add water too. Gell is the sealed/do not add water type, and AGM is the newest absorption glass matt also sealed. The #'s are the charging rate in amps. The 2 amp setting is preferred for slow charging a battery. The higher are for a quick boost. If the battery is more than 2 years old I would just replace it. The sealed gell type are the most cost effective battery's at the moment. Generally running around $60.00. You can try charging yours at the 2 amp setting for 6-12 hours, but check it every 2 hours to see if it will take a charge.
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Oh YEAH - once again, YOU rule and this forum RULES!
Thank you!
I think the thing is fried...but I'll give it a shot.
Hell, it's 4 years old...surely that's about all one can expect of such a battery, yes?
Nonetheless, we shall see...
Thanks again!
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I bought mine from WalMart and it's been great. It is a sealed battery that they sell dry. You add the acid and charge it. I think they will do it for you if you ask.
There are only about 4 major manufacturers and about 100 brands. The Wally ones are made by the majors for them.
The first three letters are the manufacturer/brands branding of the battery. I think most of the ones that end in X are sealed.
The number, like 12, is the capacity,
The suffix tells you the type of the terminals.
Basically if the first letter is different, it make no difference. It is just a manufacturers code. All of YTX, GTX, BTX... xTX are the same size
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ya they are ok batterys I use theam all the time the ones you buy with acid in theam you dont how long they just sat around this way you know the acid is good
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Four years is a heck of a long time for a standard lead-acid battery (such as what comes OEM with the Kymcos).
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AGAIN...(and again!)
THANK YOU to all...
A lot of great info.
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Tell your friends!
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try giving the battery a "shock charge" for about 10 minutes on the 15 amp setting!
this might sound harsh but can sometimes "wake up" a flat battery :) always worth a try :)
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I have Shocked batteries in the past It is a short term fix. What happens is the battery plates start building up a coating (zinc oxide I believe). The heat created from a fast hard charge (Careful Axy) breaks this coating, allowing new lead to be exposed to the acid. The down side is this free floating material can short the battery. That can either take out a stator, or maybe cause an exploding battery. I have had many batteries actually reverse their polarity, because of overcharging. If I had to do it I would be hunkered down in a remote location.
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If you look at a battery it will have a rating in AMP HOURS, so say you have a battery that is 4 amp hr. the correct way to charge this is to divide the amp hours by twelve, this will give you the maximum rating you should ever charge the battery with.
So your 4 amp hour battery should never be charged with more than 0.330 amps (330 mAh) or you could damage the battery permanently.
Never use a car charger even on trickle as there way too powerful, most trickle settings are over 2 amps.
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Wow!
So - just what kinda charger should I have for a scoot battery? Do they make special chargers for small batteries?
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Yes they have nice little ones for motorcycle and scooter batteries. They sell them on ebay very cheaply you are better going for an automatic trickle charger then you can leave it hooked up all winter or when your not using it and it will save your battery.
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I bought one at Batteries Plus for like $20 that is a 1 amp charger, works great!
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I bought one at Batteries Plus for like $20 that is a 1 amp charger, works great!
To be honest even 1amp is too powerful for a little scooter battery it should be around 1/2 an amp or less to be safe.
1amp would be a boost charge for a short period.
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It seems to work just fine. It is what the "battery specialist" recommended when I bought a new sealed battery. I've left it plugged in for extended periods (24-48hrs) accidentally with no ill effects.
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Have had good luck with my 1 amp charger also.
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I think joeboys point is for long term charging. Electronics due have some pretty strict rules. Like NEVER jump start off an automotive battery. Just connecting can take out your cdi before you can say c...
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I think joeboys point is for long term charging. Electronics due have some pretty strict rules. Like NEVER jump start off an automotive battery. Just connecting can take out your cdi before you can say c...
Rule of thumb is the rated amps of the battery dived by 12 for a boost charge and divided by 20 for a trickle charge.. I didnt make the rules i am just telling you the facts about batteries. :)
How you use these facts is upto you.
http://www.motorcycle.co.uk/Articles/Maintenance/Battery-Care-Guide.aspx (http://www.motorcycle.co.uk/Articles/Maintenance/Battery-Care-Guide.aspx)
http://www.dansmc.com/batteries.htm (http://www.dansmc.com/batteries.htm)
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The instructions for my XTREME PERMASEAL battery state, "Charge the battery once a month during storage or as needed using automatic charger with output in amps that is not more than 30% of the amp-hour capacity of the battery."
The battery is rated at 4Ah
30% of 4Ah = 1.2Ah
I've never seen a battery charger that ranges from between 1/3Ah & 1/5Ah, which it would be using the 12 & 20 method!
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-AUTOMATIC-CAR-MOTORCYCLE-TRICKLE-BATTERY-CHARGER_W0QQitemZ200419368369 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-AUTOMATIC-CAR-MOTORCYCLE-TRICKLE-BATTERY-CHARGER_W0QQitemZ200419368369)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6V-12V-MOTORBIKE-MOTORCYCLE-BATTERY-TRICKLE-CHARGER-UK_W0QQitemZ220577323334QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item335b6ed946 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6V-12V-MOTORBIKE-MOTORCYCLE-BATTERY-TRICKLE-CHARGER-UK_W0QQitemZ220577323334QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item335b6ed946)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TRICKLE-CHARGER-12-VOLT_W0QQitemZ200448399921QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item2eaba7da31 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TRICKLE-CHARGER-12-VOLT_W0QQitemZ200448399921QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item2eaba7da31)
::)
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Only one of those chargers really even falls into the category you are talking about with 1/20th of 4 amps, or 200mA. Both those articles you refer to, call for a, "1 Amp or smaller trickle charger.". This is exactly what I'm using! I don't really see where your argument comes from? I believe they are more referring to the danger of hooking up a standard car battery charger to a motorcycle battery. Where the car chargers can run 10Ah. Like I said. the instructions for the batteries I use on all my scooters clearly states 30% of rated Amps. Which is 1.2Ah, where I'm actually still well within the manufacturers recommendations for charging with a 1Ah charger!
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200ma is the correct current for a trickle charge of a 4ah battery, the other 2 chargers are good for a short boost charge.
I myself would not want to charge a 4ah battery with 1amp for more than 10 minutes.
To be honest i dont really care what other people do I just add my input to try and help if they choose not to use the information and things go wrong then thats their look out.
I supplied the links to the chargers that have the current range you said you have never seen, now you have.
Also did you abserve the size of the battery he was charging, even that was maxed out by a 2amp charger as he said. Of course people are entitled to there opinion even if it is wrong.
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Charging Batteries and Battery Chargers
Battery chargers are usually very simple things. The average manual charger is just a beefy transformer, a few large diodes and not much else. They often have less than wonderful internal connections and always benefit from a case removal, some soldering of the crimped connections and maybe some extra heavy wire. They usually have a circuit breaker somewhere and may have an alleged amp meter which imagines it can read current, more or less, approximately, somewhat related to reality. They produce pulsed DC with no filtering at about 15 volts. Some have a "fast charge" setting that really abuses the battery with even higher voltages. They are designed for very occasional use, expecting the battery to be routinely charged by a car's regulated charging circuit, not to be the only source of recharge for a battery.
Such simple chargers are good for pounding on batteries. They will easily overcharge batteries of the lead/acid type they are designed to work with. This causes electrolysis and gassing which damages the battery and makes an explosive gas (hydrogen).
There are some "automatic" chargers available at places like Sears for just a bit more than the equivalent manual ones. They are well worth the extra price when your primary use for the battery is portable or emergency power and a lot of recharging will be done off this charger. They are highly recommended over the manual versions.
The best battery charger is a power supply that can be current and voltage regulated. There are some super fancy automatic ones that incorporate these features. Based on the chemistry of a battery, there is a MAGIC voltage where it can be left connected and it will not overcharge, and its internal leakage will be compensated for, keeping the battery fully charged all the time. This is called trickle charged or "floated", but most so called trickle chargers are junk, not voltage regulated and really just slowly boil away the electrolyte with electrolysis, making certain it will be a "late" battery when you actually need it.
To properly charge a battery, you should apply a voltage that causes current to flow (being careful to get the plus and minus hooked up properly!) at about 1/10th the amp/hour rating of the battery to a maximum of about 1/4th the amp hour rating of the battery.
For instance, for a 45 amp/hour battery you should not charge much faster than 5 amps. For a 12 amp/hour motorcycle battery you should not charge faster than about 1.5 amps, etc.
When the voltage required to maintain this charge rate exceeds 14 volts, you should turn it down and regulate it at 13.8 volts. Just let the charge rate drop naturally while the voltage is held constant at the battery terminals.
Eventually the current into the battery will drop to practically nothing at 13.8 volts if it is lead/acid. Different chemistries will have different magic voltages. This is what is called "float" charging a battery. Maintaining it at a voltage which just balances the electrochemical potential of a fully charged series of cells, just below where they will start to perform electrolysis on the battery solution. If done correctly such a float can go on for a very long time and the battery will stay healthy, just compensating for the internal discharge rate of the battery.
http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/bat.html (http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/bat.html)
I do not feel i need to comment any further on this, if you want to mess up your battery, go ahead.
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google for "desulfator". You should be able to buy one on ebay for $30-50. My scooter battery wasn't holding a charge when i got it. After a month sitting on a 1amp "smart charger" and the desulfator together, it held its charge in storage for the past 3 months of winter. I had it on my car for a while too, and that battery was purchased in 2006, and still kicking good. Every scooter should have one attached.
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Thank you for the help, and advice joeboy. I did bench work on electronics for several years, and I completely agree w/ the facts you posted. Many of us have been luckily "pounding" our batteries for years. I myself believe if it is a problem maintaining/charging your present battery... Get a new one. If you can afford to... get a better one.
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I have a desulphator i made it from a kit thats for sale over here in the uk...I am about to try it on a few batteries I have that are a bit flakey to say the least..
If it fixes just one of them then its payed for itself. :)