KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => People 250 => Topic started by: ifican on December 30, 2015, 09:07:32 PM
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So over the last 6 months been sitting more then riding. Between waiting on parts and wfh the scooter hasnt been utilized much. Today put it all back together and it struggled hard to start. Had to eventually hold throttle open some to get it to go, prior to that it sounded like it was going fire but never did. Once started though ran like a champ, went about 12 miles city and hwy driving, up and down hills no problem. Stopped, shut off and tried to start, again just crank crank crank then finally it started. Ran it back home pulled into driveway shut it off and tried to start it again. This time nothing just cranking, I dont think its fuel or spark as when it starts it runs great. Though i am open to testing / looking at anything. What i dont want to do is randomly buy parts without a logical path as to why its needed. Any input?
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What was wrong with it before and what parts did you put on?
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just maintenance things (belt, air filter, rollers). It ran fine after getting it all back together then it sat a few weeks. Interesting thing is after letting it sit for a couple couple hours it fired right up. I havent tried today so that is still an unknow.
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new twist, went to try starting it today and the started got stuck on. Flipped the kill switch, turned off the key and it just keep cranking. If i turn the key on it would start and when i turn key off or killed motor starter just kept cranking. Scrambled around the garage to find a screwdriver to pull battery terminal. Finally stopped. but if i touched the positive terminal with wire it would start cranking again. Any input on this strange behavior?
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That exact same thing has been happening to me too.
The shop replaced the starter solenoid with a Chinese copy, and it still happened.
Luckily I found an original solenoid that was in the scoot 2 years ago(replaced when troubleshooting starting issues)
Since then, no more running on problems.
Research indicates a possibility it also can be the actual starter switch.
There was also reference to a starter relay as a possible cause, usually lives under the front plastic.
Sent from my Samsung Note 3 with Tapatalk
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As xsel777 alluded to, it sounds like the starter solenoid is stuck in the on position.
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Current is so high the contacts "weld" closed. Usually caused by cranking with a low battery or bad connection in starter circuit (heavy wire circuit between battery and starter THROUGH start relay/solenoid).
Karl
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after posting i went digging around and eventually just opened the manual i have. The manual says the same, so ill pull it apart eventually and check it out. I havent started to look but looks like quite a bit of plastic has to come off to get to solenoid. Going to take a good week before i get some time but will post back when get it working. Though i am not sure this is the reason its not starting correctly.
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Not sure, but there's a chance you might be able to get away with just taking out the seat/underseat storage.
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So had a few minutes last night to look, under seat plastic removes (i forgot about that) and makes getting too solenoid very easy. Put an ohm meter on it and it was wide open. Took it out and whacked it a few times to break loose inside, works fine now though does not start well still. Backfired on me good too. I am leaning towards fouled plug at the moment and am hoping to check it out sometime this coming weekend.
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Plug issues are not the norm these days, guessing you have pilot circuit issues within your carb. Clean your pilot circuit, pilot jet and orifices.
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Good call on plug, it looks good with nice clear spark. Carb is pulled just havent yet had time to disassemble and give a good cleaning. Appears was flooded though as plug was really wet. Once more thing to think about for sure.
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Keep us updated, remember, do the carb really good and right the first time, doing it over takes longer.
If it was flooded and you did not flood it trying o start, you will need to check your choke circuitry, float levels and also making sure it shuts the fuel off as it should at the proper level.
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Current is so high the contacts "weld" closed. Usually caused by cranking with a low battery or bad connection in starter circuit (heavy wire circuit between battery and starter THROUGH start relay/solenoid).
Karl
I second CrossBolt's analysis and suggest the following:
1. Battery should be tested /replaced. Can be charged on the bench then hook up and turn the scooter on for 30 seconds but don't crank the engine, turn off and test voltage with a multi-meter the voltage should read at least 12.3v (full charge a good battery should read 12.5v). I have found the GV / People 250 need a strong battery that cranks the engine rapidly or the scoot will have trouble starting.
2. excessive cranking damaged the solenoid and or starter relay. I suspect this is the real culprit across brands and scooters and motorcycles. In 90K miles of riding since the late 1980's I have never replaced a motorcycle starter or solenoid. I got my 2005 GV 250 with 2500 miles now I have 19K - no problems with the starter.
3. Kymco Rear brake light - watch out for this. As the scooters age 6 years + regardless of miles. The contact on the rear brake light switch corrodes. If you don't see your rear brake light come on when you squeeze the left brake light - the scooter will not start (verify that your rear brake light works and that the bulb is ok). Note: the motor will crank even if the lever is not pushed or with the kick stand down but it will not start. I took my switch apart and cleaned it and applied dielectric grease. It works great but sometimes still acts up. Quick temp fix is to press the lever a bunch of times.
4. Moral of the story: With 19K miles my scoot starts instantly when cold. Below 45 degrees and in damp weather I need to hold the starter for up to 6 seconds before it starts. In hot weather or when the motor is hot the choke does not come on and that requires throttle open ~ 1/2 way. If after cranking for 6 seconds stop and fix the problem don't keep cranking of you risk damaging the starter or solenoid.
5. Get help from your car: Hook jumper cables and then try starting - that ensures your battery is not an issue. If it starts right up your battery is weak and needs to be replace. I discovered this last year - scoot haveing problmes starting. After sitting a few days I noticed it cranked very slowly - replaced battery problem solved.
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Kymco Rear brake light - watch out for this. As the scooters age 6 years + regardless of miles. The contact on the rear brake light switch corrodes. If you don't see your rear brake light come on when you squeeze the left brake light - the scooter will not start (verify that your rear brake light works and that the bulb is ok).
Interesting insight. My right brake level became very intermittent with starting but the left has never been an issue. Light continues to work on both. Battery i dont think so but maybe, will have to test voltage, though it was replaced less than a year ago and i put it on the charger every few weeks. What i do find interesting though and may be part of the problem is the auto bystarter varies greatly in resistance based on when i check it. Pulled it and checked it cold and it was 50 ohms. I thought man thats kinda high i bet it doesnt work (also seems like its extended farther out then it should be cold). Hooked it to power and it slowly extended some. Pulled it from power and tested ohms and it was 15ish. Was 15 for 15 minutes or so, put it down and figured let me check it again. Back to 45, does anyone know off hand the length of the choke pin cold. This one is just about 3/4", im leaning towards this being part if not all of the issue but usually when they fail they fail closed not open or partially open. Since i have carb pulled ill pull it apart and check it out as well.
Let me also toss this out, when it eventually starts (slightly holding open throttle usually) fast idle seems to work and it otherwise runs fine. However getting it good and warm, it still wont start very well. Sometimes fires immediately, sometimes not at all just cranks...... input....?
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Thats a tough one.
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I always have to chuckle at how this scooter has a mind of its own. Long and short of it, I finally put carb back on (basic go over no issues found). After initially cranking to get fuel down line into carb, fired right up. Shut it down turned it back on several times no real issue. a few times 1-2 seconds of cranking but always fired right up. Rode to gas station refueled came back home, went to start and just cranking. So getting a bit frustated put volt meter back on with light off 12.6v with light on 12.15ish, cranking 11ish. Put charger on battery for 2 minutes and it fired right up. After all this i am leaning towards battery being the issue and am mad at myself for letting it fool me. I am going to do some research now but any one have a sure fire way to test battery without the use of a tester? Battery is a walmart everstart that is on the order of 18 months old.
Update:
Pulled the battery cover and all of the cells were low with 3 of them showing exposed plates. Filled with distilled water and now its on a slow charge. Will update when i know for sure.
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That's a good update for the thread. The battery can be removed and tested at an auto store - might want to call first to verify that they can test an mc battery. You could also jump the scoot to a running car for max voltage and see if that makes a difference. Either or both could provide more clues.
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So why chatting with my neighbor came to find out he has an electronic tester, even with the cells low it showed good. After filling the cells and charging i can tell you for sure its the battery. I have started it now 5 times over the course of an hour and it fires like it should on the first crank. I cannot say that this battery will hold a charge but i am sure the battery is the key player in the weird issues i have been having. Im just floored at myself that i lived with it not starting very well for so long. Makes sense now after the fact seeing how low the electrolyte level was. This has been going on a long time. My only concern now is if this one got ruined or not from my charging it in the state it was in. I am going to put some time on it over the next couple weeks and will report back conclusively at that time. Though i feel really good right now, the pop it now has on firing it hasnt had in quite a long time.
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That's a good update for the thread. The battery can be removed and tested at an auto store - might want to call first to verify that they can test an mc battery. You could also jump the scoot to a running car for max voltage and see if that makes a difference. Either or both could provide more clues.
Do not jump start from a running car , voltage too high, over 16 volts, some one reported that it fried there electrical system in there scooter, jump start from battery only!!! car not running!
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So original issue is resolved, turned out to be the battery even though it didnt appear to be so with voltage reading. I have a residual problem if need be i will start a new thread on. But quickly simply this, cold start is perfect (cranks then fires and roars to life). However hot start never really fires it just starts running. Really hard to explain but basically the starter spins up the motor (maybe 3 seconds) it never makes that initial fire im starting sounds. I can just tell its running so i let off the starter and its idling. Its odd behavior for sure but not like i need to pump gas or do anything different. Its starts just fine but never makes that initial fire pop like it does when its cold.
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That is strange behavior. I have rarely experienced that although hot starting is often a problem requiring me to twist the throttle 1/4 to 1/4 then it starts. Be very careful about not over filling or putting gas all the way up in to the filler neck as I did for a number of years. I suspect the charcoal canister gets gas leaking into it then provides and overly rich mixture. Just a theory which I'm testing by not over filling and seeing if hot starting improves.
What you describe I experienced with a lawn tractor. Keep cranking and the motor might star but still requires the starter for a few more seconds to prevent stalling until the idle can stabilize.
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Similar but not quite same same. So for the more technically inclined it acts exactly opposite of bad rings. Its almost as if it cant build compression when hot but I dont see that as the real issue because after starting it runs great. Idles perfect and accelerates no different than any other time. In real world timing, morning start is perhaps 1 second and acts normal. Warm,hot or basically most of the rest of the day after its been made good and hot, perhaps 2 - 2.5 seconds. Its not alot of cranking or what i would call hard starting its just a few more cranks than when cold and not a "fire". I have figured out over time the starter sound changes to where it sounds like its no longer working to turn the motor. Once i hear that i let off and its idling.
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...Warm,hot or basically most of the rest of the day after its been made good and hot, perhaps 2 - 2.5 seconds.
I would say this describes my 2005 GV's behavior. A lesson could be taken from Yamaha. A friend had a Yamaha radian and still has a 1993 virago 1100cc and both start instantly at all times warm cold hot. I suspect that the scooters engines need to have higher compression to make them start better - say above 180psi. Heck my 19 year saturn wagon starts instantly even in cold rainy conditions even after not being driven for 10 days!
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Thats just it, if it was a compression issue they are generally opposite. Worn rings for instance, very low compression when cold but once warm, metal expands and compression increases. But this behavior is 180 degrees out of phase of that. I have no explanation why compression (seems like but not sure its the issue) would be great cold and not so great warm but only directly related to starting. Running feels the same all the time.
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Last and final update for me.
Never discount your battery if you have odd behavior that seems it could be electrical related, i dont care what your multimeter or tester says. Long story short, finally checked cell fluid levels and they were all low. Filled with distilled water and though everything worked just didnt work right. Voltage showed 12.5v +/- .1 and electronic tester showed good (kind they use at automotive shops). But things were just off, on a whim i purchased a new battery to test. New battery showed up at 13.15 volts and sits at that voltage all the time. Been a couple days now and things are what i would consider back to normal. First time ever for me across 10's of owned vehicles with lead acid batteries that anything like this has ever happened. Goes to show you can teach an old dog new tricks.
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Last and final update for me.
Never discount your battery...
I suspect.... that Kymco either used a starter for a smaller motor or used a starter that requires max voltage - ideally 12.6v+ in order to start right up. A no start is the perfect invitation to visit your local dealer for service. I say this because my battery is a sealed batter where you add the acid and hammer on the caps strip and it is only 1.5 years old and is getting a little "tired". Keep in mind I'm in san diego - no cold winters and I ride all year an average of 5 days a week. Volt meter shows 12.5v BUT if you turn the key on (head light on) etc the voltage drops to 12.3v if you crank a few seconds and stop voltage now reads 12.0v! which should be more than enough but lately - past 4 months or so I find myself cranking 6 seconds or having to pause and retry 2 or 3x before it starts.
A good test (putting testers aside) - hook up jumper cables to a car or use a battery charger with "jump start" mode. When I did this even on cold mornings ~40 degrees F each the the scooter started right up.
Thanks for the update.
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San Diego funny, thats where i am as well so know what you speak of well. My previous battery was same "sealed" type. Use a small screw driver and pull the plug you used to fill it, i guarantee most if not all your cells will be low. I refilled it and it would hold a charge for several days then start to act funny. Purchased a replacement super cheap online, it arrived in a few days and is a real sealed battery (no plugs), you can install it on its side if you wish. It came charged and sits comfortably a week without issue and fires right up when i go to turn it on no matter the temps outside. PM me if you want the site i used am Ill look it up.
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San Diego funny, thats where i am as well so know what you speak of well. My previous battery was same "sealed" type. Use a small screw driver and pull the plug you used to fill it, i guarantee most if not all your cells will be low. I refilled it and it would hold a charge for several days then start to act funny. Purchased a replacement super cheap online, it arrived in a few days and is a real sealed battery (no plugs), you can install it on its side if you wish. It came charged and sits comfortably a week without issue and fires right up when i go to turn it on no matter the temps outside. PM me if you want the site i used am Ill look it up.
Thanks for the information! I will pry those "sealed type" flat caps off and check the water level. I sent you a PM for the link to the battery online. Like I said the current battery is an Interstate brand and cost $70!
Update: I pried the cover off and it was dry but I was told that it is supposed to absorb the water like a sponge and be dry?
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... However hot start never really fires it just starts running. Really hard to explain but basically the starter spins up the motor (maybe 3 seconds) it never makes that initial fire im starting sounds. I can just tell its running so i let off the starter and its idling. ....never makes that initial fire pop like it does when its cold.
Recently, I had to do the same thing. I kept spinning the starter even after the motor was running to keep it going so it wouldn't stall. At first I didn't think my scoot ever needed to be started that way but I realized once in a while it does the same thing you described. Now lately after dissembling, cleaning and greasing the clutch / drive belt assembly AND cleaning the wires that go to the spark plug and applying dielectric grease it is starting really well even when hot.