KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Agility 125 => Topic started by: topaz6turbo on December 13, 2009, 02:21:12 AM
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Hi All, been snooping around here for a while having a look and have decided to post. I bought a Kymco agility 125 with 31km on the clock 2 months ago and have now done 1800km. I have just ordered a new exhaust, 1500rpm torque spring, Bando belt, 11g Dr Pulley weights and an upgraded cdi. I am awaiting arrival now, as we live in Australia and the goods are coming from the states, and while I was shopping around I saw the big bore kits and camshaft upgrades. Im seriously looking to fit the 170cc kit, so I dont have to bore the casings, and was wondering if anyone has been down this path before, and there experiences either positive or negative. I love the scoot and use it daily, so not interested in going to a bigger scooter, and enjoy having a play so give me your thoughts. What else will need changing with such an upgrade, and what issues can anyone see that I might have?
Thanks
Andrew
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Well, you won't like my answer.
I don't personally know anyone who was happy with their big bore kit mods. Almost to a one, you're sacrificing reliability for whatever performance gain there is in going to a larger cylinder. The best scooter mechanic I know said, "There's a reason they put that engine in THAT bike, and believe me, the people who designed it are a lot smarter than you or I." I tend to think there's a bit of truth to that.
If you want more performance, get a bigger bike, period. If you like the Agility, keep it, too! There's no shame in having more than one scooter. :)
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So even the basic 150cc upgrade isnt viable? They bare the same engine in that regard, simply slightly larger, can that be so bad? Why have people been unhappy, reliability? Performance? What areas have been dissapointing? Sorry to be a pain, just want the facts before I decide.
Thanks
Andrew
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I can only speak for myself, so I will! I LOVE the improvement on my zx/50! 2 1/2 years ago I installed a Malossi bore kit, and ALL the extras that would enhance the kit! Jpres. is CORRECT in saying MOST people are unhappy after their mods. I have found that the main reason is incompatible parts. Just because an OFF BRAND supplier says something will work doesn't mean it will. For example; If you install a full flow air filter, and "performance" exhaust alone, I promise you will melt your piston faster than you can get it to the shop to show off your handy work! All the parts MUST be carefully planed out to work together. Only buy the TOP OF THE LINE PARTS! There is always a risk of a poor install, or incorrect sequencing of installation, but a well planed, and funded modification can produce a well tuned, and most of all reliable machine. The Manufacturer builds a solid well rounded machine designed to require as little maintenance as is possible. You can modify your machine to gain more performance, and you will have to spend alot more time maintaining it. Fortunately scooter are easy on the wallet as far as oil, and MOST spare parts. Some things are just overkill when it comes to big bore kits. Find the most common size, and tune the Hell out of it. I have seen 125cc "stroker" kits for the dio/zx, and I think for a few laps around the circuit they would be the most fun you could have on a "throw away" motor. But you want to ride for a few years...right? Pick a common size jug kit, form a TOP manuf., install your cdi, work on the cvt to get it all to the ground. You will have to re-jet your carb to get the extra fuel, so now is where you can lay low, and let the piston/cyl. break in. You can next add the cam, exhaust, and free flow air filter. (a little more re-jetting) After that it is all cosmetic; race stickers, lighted valve stem caps, whatever... My highest recommendation is to stay away from distributors or local dealers until you have TALKED to the techs. at a company like Malossi, Pollini, NYC ect. Everyone has their own in house recommendation, but if you want power, and reliability TALK to the people that have designed the parts for those purposes. Then you can shop around for the best price on the best parts. You could always PM me for more info on what MY experiences have been, and I will tell you here that taking a 35mph 50cc scooter to a 63mph 70cc scooter has been one of the most fun and least expensive hobbies I have had! Just to finish in the last 2 1/2 years I have replaced only my rollers, belt, clutch springs, and tires, due to wear. I melted one piston due to poor quality 2t oil, and replaced three cdi's. (the cdi I now purchase direct from Suitia w/ NO trouble so far). So I don't want to go against the flow but I believe you can get a LOT more out of your scoot if you do it right the first time! Just MY opinion...
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Sensational! Thats what I like to hear. I have been searching and reading as much as I can for sometime now, have found the local guys know stuff all, and have founf a bloke in the states who seems to be on the ball. He rides what he sells, has been extremely competitive and easy to talk to, and if he doesnt know something, has told me! I am going to go with the kit, all thru the one shop, so I have a reliable source to go back to. I have spoken to a bike tuner in Melbourne (300km away) and they are set to do the dyno tuning once I have finished the build, so will advise how it goes.
Keep any positive or negative advice coming, if you have an opinion I want to know!
Thanks
Andrew
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The BEST advice I can give is go 1 step at a time. If something is not working right it is easier to figure out what it is. Also you will KNOW what each part is doing so it will be easier to trouble shoot down the road. G'day Mate!
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So even the basic 150cc upgrade isnt viable? They bare the same engine in that regard, simply slightly larger, can that be so bad? Why have people been unhappy, reliability? Performance? What areas have been dissapointing? Sorry to be a pain, just want the facts before I decide.
It's not that it isn't viable; it's that you'll spend a lot more time working on it (and in most cases, I've seen guys who spend as much time, if not more, tweaking and tinkering than riding). If that's appealing to you, you may enjoy the mods life -- a lot of people do! For me, my time is worth money, so every hour I have to spend dicking around to get my bike running adds $65 (the going rate, locally) to the bottom line. For me, I'd rather buy another, larger bike that was designed to have the performance AND reliability I desired, as in the long run it'll be more cost effective, for me.
Again, if you're not the type to be disappointed that instead of going on a planned ride with your pals one Saturday, you instead spend it swapping jets out of your carb, etc., you may be entirely happy going this route. If I had 4-5 bikes, I probably wouldn't hesitate to trick one out. As it stands, I want the one I have to start every time I need to use it, and not break down and need a push home... but that's just me!
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All that pushing is the only exercise I get! What with scoot'in to the store instead of walking or riding my bike! For quite awhile I was into radio control boats, planes, and cars. It was the same thing then TWEAK that little sucker till it SCREAMS! You're right! You got to LOVE it!
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:lol:
I hear ya, zombie. That's the point I wanted to make to our new friend -- you will have to love the constant tinkering, as it's quite likely you'll spend as much time doing that as riding. I've seen a lot of folx expect to kit a bike and have the same bike with better performance... but it's just never that way. If this sounds like fun (http://kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=1461.0;topicseen) to you, then by all means...
Once I'm in better financial shape, I will get another 50cc 2T, and another 125cc. Once I'm there, I will tinker with the 50, 'cause they're so much fun just stock, even. But the folx I know who have a mostly-successful kit experience are almost all 50cc 2T riders.
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Ok, well to get started I have ordered the following. An unlimited uprated CDI unit, a 1500rpm torque spring, a set of 11g dr pulley sliders, a bando replacement belt, and an alloy sports exhaust system. They have been posted and I (impatiently) await there arrival. Im going to fit these under the advice of my supplier, and if everything works the way he suggests it will, I will then be going to the 170cc big bore kit along with airfilter and a dyno tune early in 2010. Is there anything I have missed that you think I might be missing and need?
Thanks
Andrew
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Stiffer springs on the clutch shoes will help give you a better launch. The 11gr Dr. pulley's will get your scooter rolling sooner than stock so to keep your rpms up stiffer springs will allow a later lock up in the clutch. 12-18 $ will make a big difference.
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Clutch springs are on the way. I cant wait to get all my stuff and fit it up. It will be an interesting path I reckon. I will sey some baseline figures before I start and assess as I go for reference.
Be good,
Holty
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...I'v done some basic mods to my A50, and have had some success so far...however, I kinda feel like Jpres on this one..
..dang, wish this wasn't my only ride..it'd be so cool to have the only (50) 4t around that'd run 60 mph...
..keep us informed on your progress...
peace
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Ok, I got the new Alloy Exhaust system the day before Christmas in the post. I have just fitted it now. The engine pipe didnt suit, so I had to cut the flange, change the angle and extend the engine pipe a little to suit. The mounting brackets for the muffler were damn close, but made the muffler sit too low for my liking, so I adjusted that as well. It looks really sweet on the bike, weight nearly half the standard pipe, and sounds so nice. Very deep and a lot louder. It does get off the mark better, but seems to be a little worse off on the hills. I suspect it is over exhausted at the moment, but once the rest of the goods come I will then re-assess the system as a package. All up the muffler cost me $30US and is worth it in weiught saving and sound alone! I took pics and will post them once I work out how and can be bothered. Im still bloated from Christmas lunch!!
Andrew
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Well there is a Merry Christmas story... The decrease in power at the top end is most likely a lean condition due to the better flow from the pipe. There are several ways to adjust that. You can open your carb., and get the jet size off your current jet. Order the next 4-5 sizes up, and try them 1 at a time doing plug readings untill you get the right ratio for your top end. Here is a link to a plug guide that may help...http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html (http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html) . You may then find it is too rich in the lower to mid range so you will want to lower your needle 1-2 notches to lean out these areas. It is critical you do not run your engine lean as this will melt your piston, and or burn the valves. Re- jetting is mandatory after changing MOST pipes. You may also want to order your free flow air filter at the same time as you will have to re-jet when you install that item. Your idle circuit should also be adjusted a little richer to add the extra fuel your engine now requires. The way I have been adjusting jets is to drill them out w/ either pinn drills or tourch tip cleaners to get the size. If you go too far they can be soldered to start again. Try to stay off the higher rpm ranges untill you get the jetting sorted out. Hope this helps!
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I was going to start jetting, but my Big Bore kit comes with jets and a starting range, so figured I would wait in the short term until the goods all arrive and save doing it twice. This will be used daily in the warmer weather so I want to get it right. I love the sound and reckon when its a bit bigger in capacity it should get deeper sounding as well! How many have changed there camshaft in the four stroke Kymcos? I reckon thats when the tuning will be a real pain in the ass. I love the sound of a big cam, and I reckon on a scooter it should turn some heads while offering a good midrange upgrade.
Be good,
Andrew
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I believe this may be a good source for a cam.http://books.google.com/books?id=G0lYoRq7SusC&pg=PT232&lpg=PT232&dq=M676458&source=bl&ots=lqbKDa09db&sig=8e8H4bBI6rp_51iadLGpBzc0A3o&hl=en&ei=OCESS88djrW2B--M6KwJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=M676458&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=G0lYoRq7SusC&pg=PT232&lpg=PT232&dq=M676458&source=bl&ots=lqbKDa09db&sig=8e8H4bBI6rp_51iadLGpBzc0A3o&hl=en&ei=OCESS88djrW2B--M6KwJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=M676458&f=false) These guys seem to have EVERYTHING. In case the link doesn't work due to translation you can find it at SIP scooter catalog. Yeah the best bet is to get ALL your ducks in a row before spending alot of time/money on fixing things that aren't broke. My advise to you is add 1 piece at a time UNLESS you KNOW what the result will be. That's why I drill jets vs. buy jets. Keep posting!
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Hey on a PS. I run a 2t 70cc engine REAL rich on the bottom end, and it does turn heads when it starts to SCREAM.... Sorta like a "cammed out" 4t.
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Great news!!! New years day here and I thought I might slip the new Dr Pulley weights into my scooter. Rather than hook up the compressor and drag it all out I tried to shortcut by jamming a screwdriver into the fins and guess what, snapped a fin off! Anyone here in Oz got one they can express post or any thoughts what to do? I gather repairing is out due to balance issues, so without spending up on a flash new one, what are my options? God Im pissed off, at it breaking and my ignorance!!!
Andrew
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You might try some JB Weld in a pinch. I would still look into getting a replacement, but it will probably work in the mean time. If nothing else save you the express shipping charge!
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In a pinch you can run w/out the fan. just replace it with washers to take up the space. Or I know it may sound redneck, but grind the break down flush, and do the same 180 degrees opposite. That fan doesn't do much anyway in a sealed environment. Don't sweat it Bro! Happy New Year!
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Ok thanks. Im going to weld it in the short term, and am looking to upgrade now as I have briken this, but want it on the road in the good weather. Who is running what in the way of after market? Malossi? Dr Pulley? Cheapy tiawanese copies? Any advice?
Again Thanks,
Andrew
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DUDE, DO NOT SPEND A PENNY ON BARGIN BRANDS!!!!>>>>>?????>>>>> EVER!!! I have ALL Malossi in my zx/ superfever. I recently found my final drive gears are Polini. I ride EVERY day, and the ONLY time I have had trouble is with Ebay parts. The biggest diff. in COPY parts is the materials used. A Malossi clutch bell is hardened steel vs. stamped stock steel from the "bargin" dealers. Springs can be painted ANY color, but it does not mean they are "spring steel". Save the few dollars up, and buy the BEST parts. If you buy cheepos you might as well have saved your money on the scoot and bought a Chinese knock off that will run like a bat out of hell for 2-3 hundred miles, and fall apart. Try to stick to one major brand, and you will have a "tuned" scoot that will last. There is a reason some manuf. have a "rep", and others copy. Save a few bucks now, and put your scoot in the shed SOON. Keep looking around, and you will see the people that have RUNNING scoots have spent a few extra dollars on parts. The ones that have "saved" money are not running.
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Rodger. Noted and adhered too! Now goddamn it, I ordered 11g Dr Pulley sliders for my scoot. Guess what arrives? 10G. Oh well, maybe thats what I should have ordered in the first place. Just fitted them up and it screams to 80kmh and then, much like an old automatic V8 gearbox it seems to drop into overdrive. Its a very pronounced "groan" so to speak as it seems to lock up properly and then grunts away to 100kmh without a whimper. Is it too light on the sliders, and should I step up to the 11g as first requested? Im concerned it might be slipping down low and then loading up too much as it drops into overdrive in the top end. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Holty
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It sounds to me more like you are peaking in the power band, and running out of umph!. You could extend that power by going even lighter on the sliders. Going heavier will give you an even longer time in that groan state. You may want to do a "plug chop" with a new plug after about a 1 mile run in that groan zone just to see how your mix is doing in that range. Shaka had a good suggestion of either buying a mixed kit of rollers to dial in the best set up, or cheap rollers to use until you find the right set up. Then get the correct sliders.
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Heres a question. What if I fit 3 x dr pulley sliders and 3 x factory weights? What would happen then? Would I get best of both worlds or will it rattle itself to peices?
Holty
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Heres a question. What if I fit 3 x dr pulley sliders and 3 x factory weights? What would happen then? Would I get best of both worlds or will it rattle itself to pieces?
Holty
I'm not sure. I think that the worst that may happen in you prematurely wear your sliders. The sliders don't seem to wear on the top very quickly, due to their shape. They may end up holding all the weight and wear down to match up with the rollers. You could always give it a try, might just cost you a new set of sliders and/or rollers. My personal recommendation is to stick with a full compliment of one type. This seems to always give the best performance as well as longevity.
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I believe shaka is right. The sliders will self destruct while the rollers rattle around. Three of anything in the multivar is a bad idea.
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Well, I have just ordered a Dr Pulley Variator. Has anyone tried one of the units from Italy that has all the different style balls in it? It seems in principle a good idea, but wondering if anyones had a go at one yet?
Holty
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I've seen those, I think J. Costa, or something like that makes them. I saw a cool youtube video on how it works. Also someone mentioned it on the Scooter Invasion site, I don't think anyone has actually used it though.
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I can dito shaka. Try looking on utube. The vids I saw showed a very smooth function.
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Well more great news from the mighty upgrade house. The new CDI is the wrong one. It arrived, I fitted it without looking at it much and it blows a fuse when I try start. Coincidental and try again, same outcome. Look at the wires and the plugs are identicle, but my scoot has 5 wires and the new cdi has 6. F#ck! I contact the seller and he tells me that I have an odd unit the he doesnt supply. Whoop dee f#cking doo! I couldnt be happier. This upgrade thing is starting to sh** me now. Anyone got a use for a 6 wire CDI cheap, and anyone got an uprated unlimited unit for sale that I can use.......WITH 5 WIRES?
Thanks
Holty
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Exhaust didn't fit, cdi wrong? sounds like you need to find a new supplier. Who did you say you were ordering from anyway?
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The good news: It didn't burn up your stator. :)
Ah, the joys of not leaving well-enough alone...
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Ah, the joys of not leaving well-enough alone...
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But what's the fun in that?! The payoff is when everything finally comes together, everything works in harmony, and the satisfaction of enjoying what you have achieved! 8)
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... for the short time that circumstances allow. Then, the joy of pushing it however-many-miles home. :)
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It May be a little late,.What make, and part # is the cdi you received? I may have a way to re-wire it for you. The biggest difference will be if the timing is correct for your engine. Don't listen to Jpres... He is sitting inside next to the toaster oven wishing it was warm enough to ride! Keep it cool Bro! Like shaka said, It will all come together. Just stay away from Ebay.
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Hey, I've ridden a little -- very little this year, as it's been well below freezing, every day until yesterday. Then, starting tomorrow, we'll be back to normal temperatures for Nashville for a while (high 40-to-low-50F).
Then, I'll ride more. :) Last fuel up was 12/31, though.
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Your gonna need fresh fuel by the time it warms up enough! It's been well below freezing here to, and I worry about shearing the output shaft in the morning. I've broken a few bikes when I lived in New York.
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Ok, heres the link to the unit that I bought, not thru my supplier, but off... yes...ebay! Heres the link if you want to check out the one I bought. If you can get it to work I would be very grateful.......
ttp://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200418975693&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
I thought it would be ok, as long as it had more advance and no limiter, and it was damn cheap.... Lesson learned I guess. Anyway, such is life. Move on and try again I guess. I got to say, after fitting my 1500 springs last weekend I pulled out on the road after a test ride, leaned forward with the front brake locked and spun the rear wheel. Damn those factory tyres smoke up like a bitch! I was very impreseed with them in that regard. They are crap in the wet and I nealy lost it earlier in the week when she started to slide out over a wet round about, but I caught it just in time and kept her upright. Just got to be aware that they arent the best in the wet.
Be good,
Holty
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Your gonna need fresh fuel by the time it warms up enough! It's been well below freezing here to, and I worry about shearing the output shaft in the morning. I've broken a few bikes when I lived in New York.
...warm-up time...i let mine run for 10 minutes or so before headin out into the 25 degree weather....
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Piece of crap, It will not work on your scoot in any way. I bought the same one from another vendor, and complained so hard he took it back. You could always try to convince them to allow a return. I wound up contacting Suitai. They make/program the factory cdi. They will program a factory cdi to replace your stock one with any specs you want. Just google suitai, and follow to their site. There is a phone # to reach an English speaking rep to set one up for you. Ps Cost 39. bucks plus shipping. $52.00 total to Florida.
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Its all cool. I am going the big bore kit and going to play with porting, then once the engine and carb are in I will the assess the extras from there. Anyone used one of the 4 valve heads available? Kit is on order and should be here within 3 weeks. I dont know whether to pull it down straight away or wait till winter and build it up then. I guess I will get it all here and then make the decision. Funny enough, I have just ticked over 3800km this week, and it feels like it is starting to loosen up. Economy is improving, power is up, top speed is up, all good things that generally has me worried something is going to sh** itself! Anyway, keep on scooting and I will let you know how it happens when it happens....
Holty
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Way cool!!! When you get the chance PLEASE post back with the list of what you did, and how so we can see how it came together. Glad to hear it is running.
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Ok been a while. Just ticked over 5200km on the scoot, and have just today got an email from the supplier that all of my stuff for the big bore upgrade is in stock and ready to post! I have been waiting patiently, and now am so excited its a funny feeling! One question that I will pose here, with the 170cc head and barrel and A9 upgrade, what weight rollers would you suggest I start with? I reckon its going to be a hell of a lot more torquey, so maybe a heavier roller is in order?
Any Thoughts?
Holty
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I think I lost track somewhere. The common problem most of us have is a lack of information from suppliers. Meaning the kits we buy are not suppling the optimum range the parts are "supposed" run at. Thats where Forums seem to be important. Scoot. Invasion has tried to establish some "sticky threads" to address this. Some of their members have a ton of experience w/ certain combos, and can still only give limited advice on "overall" recommendations. Same w/ me. I started to read a 2t tunners manual that I posted under the general thread that explained alot of the tuning problem. MANUF. SPECS. Or more precisely the lack of. What works for MY scoot may be a disaster for yours because of the tolerances from the factory. I am still learning as much as you are. The one thing I do know, and was reminded of is: You have to start from a common "base" if you want repeatable results. This means getting YOUR engine set to what it was supposed to be when you bought it BEFORE moding it. I have been very lucky because I have been tuning 2t's for almost 35 years, and have an ear for what is happening inside the power plant, never mind the transmission. In the few months I have been posting here I see most all the trouble comes from untuned bolt on kits. sorta like putting a 350 small block in a VW bug. Sorry for the long a$$ story. I'm just trying to qualifk the answer. You HAVE to know what rpm range your pipe/jug are meant to run at, and match the rollers to that range. You have to tune the cvt to take advantage of your power band, and riding style. I suggested to another to buy a $hit load of CHEAP rollers, and trade them out sequentially until you find the set that works. I know this is vague Bro, See where your jug is supposed to make power/where your pipe is supposed to make power, and tune the cvt to that range. 5,000 rpm's go heavy on the rollers. 10'000 go light. You don't want to over rev a low rpm kit becuase you will gain NOTHING. You don't want to under rev a high rpm kit because you spent money for nothing. Find the SPECS. for your kit, and set the cvt accordingly, or they will take your boots away
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Ok, family friends run a performance bike tuning shop, and once I have it all together, I am taking it there for a dyno tune, but they have never dealt with scooters. So they will get the engine right, but the rollers were my question. I will ask the supplier the same question and see what he reccomends. He seems on the ball and has been doing these kits for some time, so he should be able to ballpark me a weight roller.
Be good,
Holty
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See where your jug is supposed to make power/where your pipe is supposed to make power, and tune the cvt to that range. 5,000 rpm's go heavy on the rollers. 10'000 go light. You don't want to over rev a low rpm kit becuase you will gain NOTHING. You don't want to under rev a high rpm kit because you spent money for nothing. Find the SPECS. for your kit, and set the cvt accordingly, Yeah holty, sorry bro the answer was this short little bit.
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Ha, all cool. My gut feeling is that its going to be more of a torque monster than a revver, and keen to try it out. Should be all here in next 2 weeks he reckons.....God Im like a kid at Christmas and cant bloody wait. Thing is we head to New Zealand in a couple of months for 3 weeks so debating whether to wait till then so I can take the time and do it all carefully (while on holidays) and get the dyno tune done at nthe same time, or knowing me, once its all here, I will just got straight out and pull it down and throw it all together! Absolutely mad keen to see what it runs like and what it sounds like with the kit on and running.
BTW, I "accidently" pull away from the lights the other day on the back whell and it just so happened it was an unmarked copper next to me! By the time I noticed him, he has his glasses down and was looking over them straight at me! He just shook his head and kept going!!! I wonder how far I can get on the back wheel with this new kit........
Holty
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An amazing read, but where is the gripping finale? How is the bike, what's the top speed, reliability, fuel consumption??????? ???