KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Super 9 => Topic started by: TheAmishSasquatch on July 01, 2015, 11:51:48 PM
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I have a few questions about PHBG installation and maybe set up if we have time. I finally managed to mount the carb to my modded factory manifold and even managed to modify the stock throttle cable to (in theory) operate the new carb. My question is where do I hook up which hoses and which are to be capped off? The air tube that normally mounts to the stock intake manifold was a no brainer as the same port is on down stream end of the PHBG. Thats as far as I can get lol. Where does the hose for the oil<? that usually mounts the the 90° horizonal port on the stock carb go? There is a similar grey port on the new carb but it is at the top of the carb body and faces down, and there is a second identical grey port on the opposite side of the carb. ??? I could be wrong but I assume the largest diameter brass port that is mounted vertically on the side & near the intake portion; is the main fuel line connection?; or is this the port/hose that is looped over on tbe factory PB carb? Lastly on tbe ports, there is a very tiny port on tbe side opposit of the adjuster screw/spring which is already capped off. Does this stay capped or is it used for something? Thanks everyone. Pics are very welcome!!!
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Remember that there are (usually) two hoses or connections for hoses that vent the float bowl. The vertical brass should go to the float bowl needle.
Hell, take the bowl off and blow air or cleaner through each hose connector and see where they go! If it has an oil house place you can cap that off since your oiler hoses are at the intake, unless you want to try to run another line.
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Is this similar?
http://www.zumasrus.com/zpix/17mmcarblftsm.jpg
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Thanks. Any pics of your setup? I think our builds are mirroring eachother in scope, parts and time frame. And thats not a bad thing for either of us lol.
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No mine is the moto-force DS black rep. Id post pics but I just dont jave luck posting here >:(
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Hope this works
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Trying better quality
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Fuel is correct. The one you marked air to intake is the vacuum line that goes to the fuel petcock. Remove the cap from the one below the down facing one. That is the oil injection line.
The down facing one is the vent for the float bowl. That just gets a straight line below the bike or to the airbox.
Verify the last one to be sure there is no vacuum on it when the bike is running.
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∆ yeah, what he said...
And have fun tuning it. The only way I got mine as close to right as I have it was after opening up the airbox like I posted.
I still get a weird slight bog when I'm cruising a little less than 3/4 throttle then ease towards full. If I straight open it, it doesn't bog, only when I ease in. I blame that on the needle or my piss poor job at tapering the gasket between the intake and the carb. I hope to one day get a larger intake, that may help. The needle is already leanest. I may try to find a different one.
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EDIT: NVM I think I got it. There are 2x down facing grey tubes. Are they both vents or does one need capped or hooked to something?
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I like where this is going
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What about jetting? I found a set of 6x jets from 60- 85 on eBay for $9 . Should I get these or go larger?
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Those would work if you're using the air box stock. I got all the way up to 95, the highest I have, and lucked out. Nice caramel color. Unless there's compensating for the rich needle.
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So open filter/ Vstack = 105-107ish?
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∆ yeah, what he said...
And have fun tuning it. The only way I got mine as close to right as I have it was after opening up the airbox like I posted.
I still get a weird slight bog when I'm cruising a little less than 3/4 throttle then ease towards full. If I straight open it, it doesn't bog, only when I ease in. I blame that on the needle or my piss poor job at tapering the gasket between the intake and the carb. I hope to one day get a larger intake, that may help. The needle is already leanest. I may try to find a different one.
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Did you change to the au tube? seriously it's MUCH better for 2T, I tried tuning my Zuma with the 4t nozzle and it was not possible, put on the au and it's been a breeze tuning. http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve (http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve)
I have the exact same carb.
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Did you change to the au tube? seriously it's MUCH better for 2T, I tried tuning my Zuma with the 4t nozzle and it was not possible, put on the au and it's been a breeze tuning. http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve (http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve)
I have the exact same carb.
Mine is the arreche, and honestly, I don't know the method to remove mine to check.
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So open filter/ Vstack = 105-107ish?
I'm not sure what the vstack would affect entirely, I don't have that lol. But I would assume that would be the area you'd be in. I think that my box mod put me close to open air filter specs.
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EDIT: NVM I think I got it. There are 2x down facing grey tubes. Are they both vents or does one need capped or hooked to something?
Hook up a hose to one, and blow thru it. If they are bowl vents it will pass right thru the other one
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What about jetting? I found a set of 6x jets from 60- 85 on eBay for $9 . Should I get these or go larger?
Too lean. Contact the seller, and see if you can go from 85 -90 -95 - 100 - 105 - 110.
Below 85 is useless. That might explain the low price.
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∆ yeah, what he said...
And have fun tuning it. The only way I got mine as close to right as I have it was after opening up the airbox like I posted.
I still get a weird slight bog when I'm cruising a little less than 3/4 throttle then ease towards full. If I straight open it, it doesn't bog, only when I ease in. I blame that on the needle or my piss poor job at tapering the gasket between the intake and the carb. I hope to one day get a larger intake, that may help. The needle is already leanest. I may try to find a different one.
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Go for a thinner needle or a larger pilot. If it is good at wot that means he main is fine. Most likely a larger pilot by two steps will get it.
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Go for a thinner needle or a larger pilot. If it is good at wot that means he main is fine. Most likely a larger pilot by two steps will get it.
Are you saying it seems like I am running lean in the pilot and needle? I thought I was rich in the needle...
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Did you change to the au tube? seriously it's MUCH better for 2T, I tried tuning my Zuma with the 4t nozzle and it was not possible, put on the au and it's been a breeze tuning. http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve (http://www.dellortodirect.com/Parts/PHBG-Parts/Dellorto-PHBG-Spray-AU-Nozzle?zenid=cfumgmve)
I have the exact same carb.
No I sent a PM meant for you asking about that to Tries instead. :-[ Which AU tube should I get? There are several different numbers. 548, 662, 568 etc etc. Which slow jet are you running #38? Lastly which of the needles #9 or #12 give you the best results?
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No I sent a PM meant for you asking about that to Tries instead. :-[ Which AU tube should I get? There are several different numbers. 548, 662, 568 etc etc. Which slow jet are you running #38? Lastly which of the needles #9 or #12 give you the best results?
you want the au262 nozzle. Also if you guys haven't read it, there's an awesome tuning guide on mopeds army for the pgbh. My best tune has been with the#9 needle. I also have a#7 and a #12, but the 9 is best for my bike. http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=273050&d=1424038332&thumb=1 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=273050&d=1424038332&thumb=1)
That shows you kinda where the different needles are in comparison to each other. Also if you haven't yet, take off the little tray that sits under the main jet, brass worth four holes.
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Are you saying it seems like I am running lean in the pilot and needle? I thought I was rich in the needle...
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I read that wrong or thunk it backwards... You could go leaner on the pilot IF it runs better with the needle all the way down (clip in top slot) OR go to a 92/93 main
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I read that wrong or thunk it backwards... You could go leaner on the pilot IF it runs better with the needle all the way down (clip in top slot) OR go to a 92/93 main
I might try the pilot back to the 38 (if I remember correctly), but I fear that I'll get that wretched bleed over after coming to a stop again. It's not too terrible and barely noticeable, so I may just pick my battle at this point...
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Bleed over? Is that when your idle stays high as fak when you come to a stop after a WOT run, usually caused by too small of pilot jet?
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Bleed over? Is that when your idle stays high as fak when you come to a stop after a WOT run, usually caused by too small of pilot jet?
Yep, solved mine with a 45 pilot.
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So from what Im gathering from the various setups mentioned I think Ive devised a good compromise as a starting base. Im open to suggestions though. #8 needle, # 42 slow jet, #98 main jet (open filter). Whatcha think? As for the AU nozzle; is it the AU "spray nozzle" or the AU "atomizer" that I need. Both are offered but which do I buy?
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So from what Im gathering from the various setups mentioned I think Ive devised a good compromise as a starting base. Im open to suggestions though. #8 needle, # 42 slow jet, #98 main jet (open filter). Whatcha think? As for the AU nozzle; is it the AU "spray nozzle" or the AU "atomizer" that I need. Both are offered but which do I buy?
You want and need both
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Ok thanks. Dellorto dirrect has everything, but they charge too much in shipping :( Anyother places?
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Yep, solved mine with a 45 pilot.
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Try a 40-42. That will most likely get you balanced.
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Bengi at treatland.com
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Dellorto direct they do charge higher for shipping but last time I got my stuff in TWO DAYS!!!! Also, just order anything you think you might want, jets, needles, the AU setup and it will still be the same shipping just get it all at once. Treatland is really good too tho, they are fast. Hey Z, I'll be building my Polini motor on my Zuma in a week, getting parts on Monday, any chance you feel like loaning out the pressure tester for a short while?
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The little embossed triangle on the piston top faces down to the exhaust correct?
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The little embossed triangle on the piston top faces down to the exhaust correct?
Correct!!!
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Seems odd since the open ports of the piston skirt are opposite of that. Id figure the open section wowoulpass over the exhaust outlet. Anyway, im having a difficult time getting the bime to start. If looking at the front/intake of tbe carb, the downward bung n the left spits fuel out of the intake if blown into. Air is also felt on the opposite downward bung. The bottom of the fuel petcock is attached to the bung on the carb outlet side/manifold inlet. Fuel is to the front of the carb, and the oil injection line is on the lower right bung that was capped by the factory. The choke is closed as I dont have a means to open it yet, but I figure this shouldnt matter since its a cold engine. ( or do I have that. Bass ackwards?)
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.. :-\ bike no starting. :-\... The Squatch is getting frustrated. Maybe ill install the airbox and see how that works. Since the choke is spring loaded, how on earth do I pull the choke, squeeze the brake lever and hit the starter button?
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.. :- bike no starting. :-... The Squatch is getting frustrated. Maybe ill install the airbox and see how that works. Since the choke is spring loaded, how on earth do I pull the choke, squeeze the brake lever and hit the starter button?
Kick it, like a real man! Or like me since my starter is weak AF. Seriously though. I've never used one so I'm wasting your time there...
Since you just put the new kit, you may consider running the old, and guaranteed working, carb. One upgrade at a time to make sure they're good always seems like a smart approach.
You won't be able to really tune the carb until after you break in the kit some anyhow. I waited a few days of slow running before putting in and figuring out the new variator.
Just advice!
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Thanks. That is typically my approach but no can-do this time. I had to hack and modify my stock manifold in order to mount the new carb. I also had to hack the stock carb top to remove the throttle cable to be used with the new carb. I tried kick starting it but still nothing. Any pics of PHBG's installed on S9's? Im not sure my hose routing is 100%
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Thanks. That is typically my approach but no can-do this time. I had to hack and modify my stock manifold in order to mount the new carb. I also had to hack the stock carb top to remove the throttle cable to be used with the new carb. I tried kick starting it but still nothing. Any pics of PHBG's installed on S9's? Im not sure my hose routing is 100%
Bummer! I made sure to not completely destroy the cap for the stock carb when removing the throttle cable, which turned out to be a good thing since the nineteen arreche didn't want to work at first. Major bummer on hacking up the intake... If at any point you need the cap to run the stock carb, I would gladly loan it to you.
I'll ask my buddy that has really went nuts on modding his super nine what type of carb he has. If it is similar I'll get him to send me pics. Maybe you could post a pic of your setup at the moment.
Have you searched scooter invasion forums yet? Hell, if you can get with Josh there he would be a great deal of help.
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Thanks fot the suggestions. I joined scooter invasion a few weeks ago as suggested in another thread/post. The site has cool S9 info but seems to be very slow in trafthread/post .The carb cap had to be destroyed was it was a sweged fitting type with no othe means to remove the cable. Today I took the head off the cylinder just to verify the V was pointing down to the exhaust. Does the choke cable need pulled open when starting or left closed? I also noticed the spark plug was wet. Ill check again to verify its origin as fuel or oil. Also I have left the oil injection alone for the moment as its cable operated and I can always adjust it to stay partly open if needs be.
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Change that plug! That may be a reason. I keep one in my box just in case I get throttle happy trying to start it. On more than one occasion I've had to swap the plug because I accidentally soaked it.
After changing the plug, just turn it over with no throttle, after a moment it should at least try to fire. The oil that you used while installing the piston makes the first start a little hard, at least it does for me. Depending on the temp you're in the carb may not be fully useful, my opinion. Pulled will be open, cold choke. I'd try it closed to try to at least catch fire without flooding the plug.
I may be wrong on a lot of this, but that's what I would try.
I actually got my bike to start the first time I put a kit on it with the piston upside down, but it ran like crap and risked snapping a ring.
I ran my new kit with the oil cable adjusted a little more open than normal, plus a small cap of oil in the tank just for good measure. I've recently adjusted the cable back to regular, trying to solve my excessive smoke and rough morning starts, and decreased the amount of oil I put in the tank, but I also like to risk it lol.
How do you have the carb set up? The screw out about two turns until you get it started I would assume.
With all the mods on the intake you're sure there's no leaks?
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This is the cut I did to remove my cable from the cap, saw it on YouTube. Definitely saved my hide.
Damn, that thing is dirty...
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Nope not sure about leaks. Im pretty sure there are no leaks on the manifold or coupler. Most starts have been choke closed. Ive tried starting with 2x. Plugs known to be good. I have not made any adjustments to the carb as I thought they are setup in a basic running tune from the factory?? I might try swapping a couple hoses around and see if theres any change. I do notice a large change in tone when I try cranking with the throttle open vs closed.... especially with the velocity stack installed. Might try the stock air box too.
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Gas should not be coming out of the two downward facing holes, those are breathers. The large brass one is for gas, the small one near where the carb mounts to the manifold is vacuum, and the small side on is oil line. If you have fuel coming out the breather your float is sticking, or the reeds are messed up and engine sending pressure back into the carb. With the starter and choke, just reach with your left hand and do the choke and hold the brake and hit the starter with you're right. Alternatively you can install a handle bar mounted choke lever.
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You didn't use those reeds from the kit, right? I know you had to see the thread on it.
On that note, is your reeds and cage, etc in working order? I'm not sure if you removed it when modding the intake.
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Thanks fellas. Yes the reeds are good. They are the stock reeds and cage not the Malossi reeds. No fuel is not coming out of the vent holes. If air is blown into the vent holes, fuel will come out of the carb inlet. All the lines are connected as youve detailed. I try to cover all of my bases before posting questions and Im still at a loss. Ive got spark and fuel. Compressions good, starter is good, battery is good, CDI is good, kick starter is bullet proof, kill switch is set to run. In theory everything needed to make the bike run is in place and operable. :o WTF!?
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Can't forget that wretched kill switch lol. Mine doesn't work so I always leave that one out.
While we're thinking of all the dumb things, one time I was going crazy about it not starting, called it a night. When I came out the next morning I found that I never put the plug wire back on the plug.
I would say to retrace your steps, but you've done a lot.
Anyways. Best of luck, man! I feel for ya. I'll put in a few extra miles for ya tomorrow!
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I should have gotten an Aprilia, done the computer flash and added a pipe. Would be just as fast or faster then this worked S9 and It'd be running!!! :(
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I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the oiling holes for the piston were drilled in the wrong spot ??
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I should have gotten an Aprilia, done the computer flash and added a pipe. Would be just as fast or faster then this worked S9 and It'd be running!!! :(
Then replace a $300 fuel pump a year later. Those bikes are very overrated, and you think your frustrated now? Try diagnosing one of those Italian POS bikes, if there is ANYTHING wrong it can be a nightmare. Plus it takes 45 minutes to just take the seat plastics off.
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I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the oiling holes for the piston were drilled in the wrong spot ??
Did you drill them? I know zombie talked about drilling in the wrist pin, if I remember correctly, and beveling the piston skirt edges...
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Edit, he does say in the spot where the wrist pin goes into the piston. Unless you speak of elsewhere
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Yep, I drilled the 2 bulges on the inside of the piston through to the wrist pin.
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I never did that. I didn't have a good enough drill at that point. I can't imagine that causing a problem...
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This is bugging me now. All the necessary elements to function and no worky. Out of desperation, have you shot any carb cleaner or starting fluid into it?
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No carb cleaner or starting fluid. I do have some moonshine though :D Im kinda at a loss myself. I was very concerned that perhaps Ive ruined the portmaps when smoothing the sharp machining edges but I itetally just knocked the sharpness down on the port edges. The piston skirt was already beveled so no work there or piston crown. No cylinder skirt work either. Maybe Z will chime in with a theory (other then my brain is only good for zombie food)
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No carb cleaner or starting fluid. I do have some moonshine though :D Im kinda at a loss myself. I was very concerned that perhaps Ive ruined the portmaps when smoothing the sharp machining edges but I itetally just knocked the sharpness down on the port edges. The piston skirt was already beveled so no work there or piston crown. No cylinder skirt work either. Maybe Z will chime in with a theory (other then my brain is only good for zombie food)
Lol, yeah, he's always hungry. Moonshine might do it if you have the Super hot stuff that's 190 proof.
I can't imagine you messing up the ports. I went to town on my hoca kit, no problems. This kit I just knocked off the sharpness.
Sadly, it's probably something really simple that's evading us. I chased around an issue with random dying to find out I needed to trim my plug wire.
This would be a bit easier to get if you were able to strap on the stock carb. Maybe you could connect the cut bit of the manifold to the old manifold, cover the top of the carb, no cable, and try to get it to start with just the idle screw in a bit more than normal idle. Then you could narrow it down to carb tuning.
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I just triple checked everything. Between yesterday and today I now have no spark. I even took a brand new Bosch car sparkplug and hooked it up to look for spark. Nothing :( I have 3 CDI with another on the way. They are good. What could just quit? Ive not touched anything electrical other then disconnecting the autochoke.
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I'd start at the cap and work my way back. Including checking that the wire doesn't need to be trimmed. The auto choke wires were secured with no chance of touching? I'm sure that would possible pop the fuse...
You didn't have to fuss with the stator wires when pulling off the plastics that cover the head?
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At least you're making headway!
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Not too much fussing with the stator wires. I might double check the stator pick-up spacing JIC. I guess its time to break out the ole multimeter. On a more positive note; my new clutch & contra springs arrived today along with 80 cigars from Famous :) Ill probably go ahead and order a new coil and regulator from Aliexpress to have as a back and /or replace the stock stuff depending on the multimeter results.
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Seems like a dead coil is the culprit.
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I thought you said it has spark?
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It did 2 days ago 😕. Project on hold. Waiting for parts 😡
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Seems like a dead coil is the culprit.
Well, congratulations! Sucks that it just gave up the ghost like that during a rebuild. But at least you found the issue.
I definitely need to not take for granted the fact that I have spare parts lying around willy nilly.
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True, true. At least it stopped working in my living and not when I'm out n about in 85-90° heat. I could get a coil sooner but I'd rather pay $11 for a coil and NGK plug and wait 2-4 weeks then pay $40 for just a coil and have it here this week. I'm in no rush as I typically only ride a mile total each day.
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That's still pretty rough. I'd lose my mind waiting that long to ride. And probably my girlfriend. I'm actually about to go and take a hatred fueled therapy ride right now to keep from taking any drastic measures.
Another fortunate thing for me is having so many scooter shops and riders around that I would just have to pay a few bucks more to someone in town for a lot of things I'd need on the fly...
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Must be nice! I've not found any other scooter enthusiasts here in the city of brotherly love. Brotherly love my left nut! This place has the highest idiot & asshole rating per capita, then any other state in the union. To top it off effing new jersey is rite next door :\
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Must be nice! I've not found any other scooter enthusiasts here in the city of brotherly love. Brotherly love my left nut! This place has the highest idiot & asshole rating per capita, then any other state in the union. To top it off effing new jersey is rite next door :
Lmao, I'm in little Seattle, Asheville, NC, so I'm good. Still the fair share of ass holes, but I'm sure that you've got me beat!
I've yet to really meet anyone a as big of a scooter nut as I am in town, save for one guy that had a Super Nine that he had done so much modding to that it was barely a Super Nine any more, besides the shred of beat up plastic he had left. He was hit the other day and it was totaled [emoji22]
I am coaching this one kid through tuning his people 50, and others hit me up for mechanical advice and light work. I've beginning to be known as "Scooter Shaun" lol. I do have possibly the fastest fifty model scooter in town.
I feel like a small fry on the forums, but everywhere else barely anyone has a clue what I'm going on about, or they're so hell bent on keeping their bike stock that I'm an outcast. But I'm an outcast that shreds their bigger expensive new scooters to pieces!
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I might have mentioned on 49cc scoot that grew up in Asheville. Went to TC.Roberson. Circa '04-05 there wernt too many scoots in the area. The few scooters around were driven by old guys or as DUI specials. I think I was one of a couple and possibly the only guy in his early 20s riding a scoot. It was a black '04 Vino 50 2t. Put over 10'000 miles (not kms) on it the first year! Hendersonville to Asheville, Asheville to Black Mountain, Hendersonville to Batcave/Chimney Rock, sometimes from Batcave to Saluda and every combo there of. I rode north and south on the Prkway alot, usually starting at the Arden/Biltmore Forest entrance (sometimes at the Arboretun entrance.. Sweeten creek rd ?) The furthest North I rode on the prkway was a little North of the big pull off at the Asheville water-shed tben turning around and returning to the city via Towne Mnt rd and the furthest South was up to Devils Courthouse! Good times :)
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Awesome! I actually live in Arden, do all of my riding in all the areas you mentioned, besides bat cave. Planning to ride out there and lake lure.
Most of the people are old or have duis. That's actually what put me back on one. I rode before the incident, and now I ride, mainly by choice and will continue. It gives scooters a bad rap here. Everyone assumes your a worthless drunk. I've been clean for almost nine months and make almost $50k annually. It's a shame, but it's the cross I gave my self to wear.
But, you can tell by the type of scooter who rides for pleasure and who's forced to. So many Chinese beaters...
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I started riding bec I lost my license for tickets and driving while suspended. Im glad it happened because I otherwise might not have ever owned a scooter. Lake Lure is nice. I would usually ride down to lake Summit aka Lake Scum-mit with friends and go swimming. Theres a tressel we'd jump from. Id really like to visit the area again soon. Itd be great to bring my Super 9 with me!)
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Definitely hit me up if you ever do get around here. It would be awesome to ride and swap mechanical advice!
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I checked my carb last night, I was mixed up when we talked of pilot jets. On my stock carb I had it all worked out with the 45 pilot. This arreche 19mm has a 20 pilot. I went to go down to see about helping my little sputtering issues and realized that I got the two confused. It can't be bad since I run it with the mix screw a little over two turns out.
Since I couldn't swap those jets with my stock, they don't swap lol, I cleaned up my Reed block, noticed I have carbon fiber reeds already, put new gaskets on said block. Then took the dremmel to the intake and spacer just a little. Didn't get it to completely match, my dremmel tool is crappy, but what I did open up, and the cleaning and polishing, seemed to make a difference.
Oh yeah, point of this, I'm not running a 45, I'm running a 20 pilot in my 19mm arreche carb.
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Today I took the Dell rep apart to have a better idea of what I have, and I now have a few questions. Here is a pic of what's what with my carb.
Which is what? I know the #75 is the main jet but what are the others called? Isnt the holder of the main called an air corrector? Which sizes of each should I order as per our earlier discussions?
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How do I remove the nozzle pictured?
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No number on the small one? If that 60 is your pilot, which I would guess it to be, then that thing is HUGE!
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I wonder if they went large on the pilot to ballance the small 75 main? The smallest jet has no markings. And Im not sure how to or if the nozzle is removable??
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The TINY jet is the idle jet. The large #60 is the choke fuel jet. The other large tube is the emulsion tube. To get the current spray nozzle out you use a punch and gently tap it downwards towards the float.
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I would guess for your setup, pilot #38-#42 and main #85-#95 just guessing though.
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Thanks B&L. Do you think the #60 choke is the correct size?
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Thanks B&L. Do you think the #60 choke is the correct size?
Yeah choke jet doesnt matter really.
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Today I ordered the AU 262 atomizer and nozzle from Treatland. Oh and I forgot to post up but the last week I made a few custom "Yeti Moto" manual choke cables. If anyone's interested I have 3 ready to go. $15 shipped anywhere in the lower 48.
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That's awesome!
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That's awesome!
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Thanks. Ive already sold one on Brents site. The fellow should get it today. Im anxious to hear some feedback.
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I had to downjet a number of sizes after installing the AU setup. Try what you have first, but mine was REALLLLLLLY rich after switching to that AU setup.
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I just won an eBay auction of 16x various jets. Most are going to be unusable but included is a 38, 40 and I think 42 idle jet, a 95 and 100 main and a 110 main. The rest are eith way high or way low. For under $10 shipped I really couldnt go wrong. Still need to get an assortment nearer the sizes Im interested but couldnt pass up this deal. Seller posted they were used for his son when he used to race motocross.
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Good score
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Been a while... How's it coming?
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Waiting on parts. I ordered a new stator, regulator and flywheel tool. The new coil and Casoli CDI arrived and still no visible spark. I hooked up the multimeter and with the multimeter probe attached I then had visible spark?? This leads me to think there is a bad ground somewhere but none could be found and everything is attached. Im begining to think that this was an intermittent falt which may have been the reason my scooter wouldnt run for more then a few seconds after the previous (before bbk) engine mods. Also since last posting, my Hoca roller spring base which was lost in the mail finally was forwarded to me and attived yesterday and has since been installed. The eBay jetting deal I scoref arrived as did tbe AU nozzles and such. Tbe bike is really close.... I hope :\
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Great to hear some of the good news, like you may have a good kit on the side. The roller base is great if your spring wasn't as stiff as you wanted. I had to leave out the metal spacer that was in the clutch to begin with. It would bind and not allow full spring compression. The results weren't mind blowing, but it does help a bit.
Lemme know if that cdi does any better. Most people have told me to stick to the stock, but I don't follow instructions well, lol.
Not to try to sound like a jerk or repeat myself, did you check your plug wire alone? I said before, I had a problem I chased forever, bouncing back and forth between spark and fuel problems, just to find that the plug wire needed a trim and put back on the cap. It was wore out just enough that when wiggled it would cut out, mainly at idle or low rpms. You saying it came back intermittently makes me think of how mine did that.
Anyways, keep me updated!
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Hmmm im still stumped. The stator arrived today but is a slightly larger 8 pole stator. To be honest Im not sure how a stator could even go bad. I cleaned the magnetic strips on tbe inside of the flywheel and went ahead and swapped the magnetic pickup from the new stator to the old, as tbat seems to be tbe only part that looked a little worn down. I swapped the pressed in nozzle in the carb, installed the AU nozzle, upjetted to a 103 main and 42 slow jet. Which side of the press in nozzle faces the air box side? Open cresent or closed? I have the closed facing out. Sorry for the lack of punctuation. The bike has tried firing several times. Ive noticed that my starter can barely rotate the engine with the plug installed and they is a kickback in the kick start. Occasionally ill get a good kick and the bike sputtesputtera bit. Does removing the flywheel affect the timing at all? It just seems the kick and the piston arent in sink, or maybe im just frustrated?? BTW I have trimmed the coil lead. It didnt really need it but i was taking advise given.
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Can you start over one time, and list what is happening?
When it started, and why? what you have done?
I never pulled out an atomizer so I would have to look to see which side is which, but logic tells me it should have the cut out facing the airbox.
Also the small trigger coil may have to be slotted to move it toward a more retarded setting. I have had to do this even on OEM replacements where the bends in the metal were not exact. It won't hurt to pull the flywheel again, and double check the key did not fall out on install.
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Sure thing. Well, I Swapped to a 72cc BBK and 19mm Dell Rep carb. Everything assembled well and I tried to fire its maiden start-up after the install, and nothing happened. After much troubleshooting and re checking, I found a no spark situation. This is odd as the scoot was firing prior to the BBK, although not running as prior to the BBK I modded the stock jug and such (as you may recall?). At that time I made the mistake of assumtion, in that I assumed I had spark. I also assumed being relativly newb to cylinder mods that I flubbed the stock stuff (even though Im very presice and detail oriented). During this timeI also added a few other bits like new clutch springs, Hoca roller base, and contra spring. (Not that those should affect any of my cutrent issue). So fast forward to the carb and no spark: as stated its a 19mm Dell replica. Yesterday I swapped in an AU main jet holder, and AU nozzle even though the stock pressed in nozzle is identical in every way. Nozzle was installed closed end out which might be wrong. I up jetted to a 103 main jet (open filter/velocity stack) and 42-43 small jet. All my lines to tbe carb are installed correctly and as noted buy you on page 1. After researching the no spark issues a couple weeks ago it suggested that most no starts are due to a bad stator (I assume pick-up). I ordered and recieved an 8 pole stator and regulator/rectifier slated for the super 9. It is too large to fit in the flywheel with the magnetic pickup strips still installed in tbe flywheel (not sure if they can be removed or bypassef??). I have not changed regulators yet. Since the stator is only coiled wires and magnets, not much can go wrong so I removed the timing pickup from the stock stator and swapped the new pickup on, keeping the stock 6 pole stator which fits inside the flywheel. Everything is reassembled, all connections are checked and all looks good. I first try the electric start and it can barely rotate the engine, almost as if the battery is weak. The starter rotates the engine fine and strong with the sparkplug removed from the head. So I use the kick starter. Im kicking like a Taliban goat and not getting much. I pull the choke open and kick and the bike does a double sputter (same sound as nomal when kicking but twice as long as if trying to fire). When the bike tries firing, there is smoke coming from the exhaust which is I can assume is pretty loaded up at this point and smells very rich. There is also a kick back to the kick start and it actually stops mid kick as if the piston/crank are out of timing, or I possibly and more likely re installed the kick mechanism wrong after CVT cover mods. The bike is obviously getting fuel but no spark and why the hell is the starter having trouble? Long post but gives a good picture of whats going on. Any help would be great. Thanks guys.
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Well the new cylinder will have more air/fuel to compress, and maybe a higher compression ratio. That will make a marginal electric starter appear bad.
I would start off with a new battery.
If it still spins over slow then a new starter...
You are most likely too rich on the pilot jet. These bikes, and kits are goofy. No two will take the same set up.
I would try a 38-40 pilot jet, and a new spark plug.
The fact that it kicks back is telling there is enough spark to fire it but too much fuel.
The re-jet should get you running, and from there we can trouble shoot the rest. I would return or sell the 8 pole stator to. It's of no use to you.
Where did you buy it?
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I bought the stator on ebay. It was like $18 so not a huge loss but I will try to return it if possible. Is the pilot jet the very tiny one? You really think Im getting spark? I can't visibly see the plug sparking when removed from the head. Also wanted to ask about the carb adjustments themselves. I have not adjusted anything from the factory settings as I figure they have them set to atleast run as is... Maybe not run well but run none the less. Is that a fair assumption? Maybe tomorrow I will turn the open end of the carb nozzle to face the airbox side, double check the small jet size and drop the main down to a 100. I ordered 6 new NGKs the other day and they should be here tomorrow. Id really like to get this jigabo running this weekend. Anything else I can do to help the cause and get things going?
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Grab that plug and feel the bite! That's my sure fire way to tell if I got spark. It's kinda addicting. I found that my pilot jet on the 19mm is only a twenty. It might be that small to compensate for the over rich needle I have in it.
I would be at wits end if i were in your position. You are a stronger man than I...
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Listen to Tries. Don't be a girl (sorry BlueSin) See if it bites you. You do know the plug has to be touching the metal engine to make a spark?
The only thing to do now is wait for an assortment of jets. 20 sounds tiny but it may be what that carb needs to run.
try a 20/25/30/35/40.
The mains wont matter until you get a good pilot jet but 100 sounds like a fair place to start.
When you order jets I would also get 105/110/115/120/125 mains.
The idle mix screw is on which side of the carb? Near the engine or near the air box?
If you get addicted to sparking yourself, I don't know you, and was never here.
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There was some tingle to the lead the other day but nothing that made me jump and yes I have it on metal. Ill play with the jets today and see. The assortment I got was a mixed bag from a dirtbike racer who was finished with racing. $9 shipped on eBay so I wasnt too picky. I was thinking and I do remember the open cut in the nozzle facing out and I belive that helps atomize the air/fuel so Ill correct that as well. As for the screws on the side of the carb, Im not certain without getting out of my warm bed on this fine early saturday morning...... Crap, now Im obsessing over where theyre located... Well I might as well go ahead and burn a cigar while im up.
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Yesterday Inswapped everything that needed changing. Still too much fuel but I dont have smaller then a 38 pilot jet. Im down to a 100 main. I also put the battery on a jump start/tender and the starter runns great , fast and strong while its hooked up. After removal Ill get 1-2 good cranks and thats all, so I guess the battery is going bad. Ill hold off on the battery because even with the stronger crank and spark, Im still gettinv waay to much fuel as the plug is soaked. Will adjusting the setting on the carb help? They are still set at manufactures specs.
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It might help, yes. Try seating the screw, and turn it 2 turns out. That is the normal base line setting.
You didn't say if it was on the air box side or the intake manifold side... Or did I miss that?
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The silver screw is closer to the airbox and the brass one is closer to the intake manifold.
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And the fox ran round the bush.
There is a small screw that adjusts the idle mix, and a larger screw that adjusts the idle speed. The small screw is the one we need to know about.
Just looked it up. The brass screw is the idle mix. Yours controls the amount of fuel allowed to pass thru the idle circuit. Try setting it at one turn, and that 38 pilot jet you have. With a new spark plug it should start with 2-3 kicks.
Also try adding a new ground wire from any engine bolt to the frame, and the battery. Something like an 8awg wire will work. That may explain the weak spark, and dead battery
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Great! Thanks, Ill give that a try and report back.
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And the fox ran round the bush.
There is a small screw that adjusts the idle mix, and a larger screw that adjusts the idle speed. The small screw is the one we need to know about.
Just looked it up. The brass screw is the idle mix. Yours controls the amount of fuel allowed to pass thru the idle circuit. Try setting it at one turn, and that 38 pilot jet you have. With a new spark plug it should start with 2-3 kicks.
Also try adding a new ground wire from any engine bolt to the frame, and the battery. Something like an 8awg wire will work. That may explain the weak spark, and dead battery
I need to do this as well, might be a solution to a few of my problems, like the electric start taking a few turns before spinning well, and the always scary bike trying to cut out when I switch on the right blinker every so often.
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That does sound like a ground issue. I go off one of the bolts in the head just under the valve cover. Looking at the front of the engine it's a ten mm bolt on the bottom left corner of the head. I think it was for the emissions pipe, and most bikes have this hole tapped. From there to the shortest reach to the frame, and again to the Batt.
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That does sound like a ground issue. I go off one of the bolts in the head just under the valve cover. Looking at the front of the engine it's a ten mm bolt on the bottom left corner of the head. I think it was for the emissions pipe, and most bikes have this hole tapped. From there to the shortest reach to the frame, and again to the Batt.
No valve cover ;) but I'm sure I'll find a place. I am making a new thread of my bigger problem at the moment...
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2t/4t... whatever... B&L usually catches these for me.
Add a valve cover, and it's all good.
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I'll put one in asap. It'll go nice with the turbo and the windshield wiper washer fluid reservoir.
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So I made a couple new ground cables and installed a new plug as well as adjusted the carb as suggested, and still no start. I havnt gotten a new battery yet (gotta pay bills first). I took the baytery up to A-zone to be charged and tested but they said they dont charge or test small batteries, only car batteries ??? Im going to install the new voltage regulator today an readjust my kick start lever since it will kick to 90° from horizonal when it should be more like 45°. Ill update once i get a new battery. I just want to ride again :o
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I feel for ya, brother. I was down for just a few days and I felt like I was missing a limb, all depressed and whiney and moody.
The air cooled are still DC fired, right? Or are they ac fired?
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AC fired I think. As I remember only the early LC's were DC fired. Kinda deceiving because Kymco uses large CDI's that look like DC cdi boxes. ... or maybe it's just mine?? I'm gonna order a battery today so. Any recommendations? Currently has an ever start ES4L-BS which I think was installed by the dealer at sale time in '07!!
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In addition to the post above: Still not sure if AC or DC but the lights illuminated while kick start for compression testing (battery removed). BTW I'm getting 160psi with the kick start. Is this good, acceptable or low for a 72cc? Zombie?? Are you around man??
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From what I've read around that is good compression. You don't want too much more than that. When on the fifty kit I had 125psi, with a cracked ring, and it ran like a champ.
I'd like to say that you're running AC by the way that your light comes on while kicking it, but don't quote me. Lol.
You should still be able to start it with a bad battery, if AC fired you can run without one.
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Yeah the stock CDI looks like a deck of cards sized DC unit, but I think thats just a kymco thing. Ive ordered AC CDIs and run tbem with no issues so... I think your correct. As for the battery: I suppose it would start but not sure. I know I had to kick and kick and kick and got weak spark, so I just ordered a new battery for $16.30 shipped from Brooklyn :) Shoud be here tomorrw or Friday. ...Im past the point of getting excited that "this will be the weekend" I get tbe bike going, so we'll just plug away and hope for the best.
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Fingers crossed for ya!
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Thanks man , good luck on getting those body panels
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Those aren't great priority. Bigger fish to fry at the moment!
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Update: Still not running :'( After I installed the new battery I was eventually able to kick the thing into life. It ran for about 8-10 seconds while I pulled on the choke. As soon as I let it go, the motor died and I've not gotten it to fire since. I've removed the fly wheel as I wanted to check the pickup spacing and I guess check timing. Since it was just a cylinder swap and not crank swap I can't imagine how a timing change could even happen, but it was suggested to check it so I am. With the bike not running, checking the timing is in my mind impossible as the flywheel can only go on one way and I'm installing it with the piston at TDC. Why the eff is my bike not running? It actually ran for 8 seconds so I know for a fact it can actually do it, so wtf!? Please help me out fellas and ladies.
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Damn man, that's almost worse than it not starting... Was your plug wet afterwards? I found a problem on my tgb, after it would sit without me working on it for a while, oil would leak into the engine. I found my cylinder, case, and exhaust full of oil that would drown the spark plug after it started. I had to pull it all apart down to the case and soak the oil or of the case with paper towels.
I figure my s9 does similar due to the large amount of smoke and sputtering until really opening it up after it has sat for the night or longer.
I'm grasping at straws here, hoping someone will stumble across your issue...
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Thanks man. I'm so bummed and over this scooter! The plug does get wet with fuel/oil but only after kicking it over, repeatedly. I've taken the plug out and flame dried it with the stove. I figure the hot electrode would also help keep the plug dry for a few kicks and give me a better chance at ignition; but I'm wrong. I'm really really at a loss. I figure the plug is wet from too much fuel (duh!) So I've tried starting with the carb adjusted in (lean) on the idle circuit and running adjustments. Might try an unusually small (then what would be expected for this setup) main jet. I'm gonna try to source a smaller idle jet as well. Maybe there's just too much gas for proper ignition?? I really have doubts about the common crank seal leak simply due to the good compression of the motor... not to mention it has run (even if pooly) with the current setup. I'm grasping at straws here too. FML 😕
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Is it drenched ? I found out by taking out the plug and turning it over. When I did, sh** started blowing out of the plug hole. More than the mist that is necessary to start. In my case it was a large amount that money shot me, as I was leaning in front of the open tunnel lol. That's when I discovered my oil has drained into the engine bits.
From what I thought, which I may be wrong, is that the compression tests test only the top end, piston and rings. A leak down test would only tell leaking crank seals. I'm not 100% on that though. Is your base gasket have any problems? I wonder if that would be noticeable from compression tests or not...
What's bad is that this is probably just something that is being overlooked and will make you want to drop the damn thing off a bridge when you figure it out.
I would definitely try to find a smaller idle jet to start with just to get it to maintain idle before needing the main.
Man, I really wish you had the chance to toss back on the stock carb....
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Dumb question, you're positive the arrow on the piston is facing down? I actually got my first kit to start with it facing up, but it ran terrible for just a few seconds then wouldn't again...
Not to try to insult your intelligence, man!
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The plug isn't dripping wet after many start attempts, but it is certainly damp. I'm certain the piston arrow is facing down, as noted in one of my previous on one of the pages here. As for the base gasket, I'm using the Malossi supplied gasket which is thinner then stock. I wonder if the port timing is off with this gasket?? The original was ruined during removal so I think I'll order a new OE gasket and try that. I too wish I could use the tick carb, but it's Fuct and the manifold was hacked to be used with the new carb.
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I didn't pay attention if my liquid cooled malossi kit base gasket was any thinner. I wouldn't think it would cause a timing disruption, since to increase or decrease your squish is usually done by adding and removing gaskets. Not 100% on that though.
Are the base gaskets interchangeable between liquid and air cooled? I may still have a new one from a gasket kit I bought in the package of you're going that direction.
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I think the gaskets are the same between LC and AC. It should be recalled that the Malossi kit I got was not specified for "kymco super 9". It was designated for use with cobra, top boy, and agility IIRCC. All of which are interchangeable, but perhaps some minor differences such as the gaskets. That would be great and very appreciated if you have a spare gasket you can part with. If it works I'll send you the thin metal gasket the kit included, in return.
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A metal base gasket? That's odd. The one's I've gotten were paper type material...
I'll check that I have it once I get back home this evening. If I do I'll message you to get an address. Shouldn't be much to ship, I'll just sandwich it between some cardboard.
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/19/ed50d08715c0426066e8dad07609b4f1.jpg) this look right to you?
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Yep that looks about right!! :) Thanks! I'm sending my address now via PM.
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The gasket arrived friday, safe and sound. Thanks man!! Now I just need to install it :o
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Awesome man. Let us know!
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Its aliiive!! Its ALIIIIVE!!! Well sorta ::) After much tinkering and retracing steps and listening to various advice and a new OEM gasket thanks to my budy Tries; the bike fired for the first time this morning. Im still not sure what ultimatly solved the no start as since the previous 8 second run a couple months ago, I have replaced the base gasket, installed yet another new battery, replaced the "new" timing pickup with the original, re gapped the pickup to a much smaller (then credit card) gap, and cleaned the carb agian JIC. The issue now is at idle (or lack there of). The bike will fire right up using the electric start with a little throttle input (choke not pulled). Once started I have to hold the trottle at around the 1/4 position to keep it running and will not idle without assistance. The engine revs fine from 1/4-3/4 throttle upto full open throttle is givin, at which time the bike begins to sputter. If I pull the choke cable the stalling attempt subsides. Ive tried adjusting the idle mix and speed screws haphazardly just to get a self sustaining idle, but the bike instantly dies :( Any ideas what to try next? Im planning on ordering new idle jets.
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If it runs on choke the idle jet is too lean, my Zuma With stock airbox takes a #45
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Awesome man! Glad to hear that you've made some headway!
I'd say to crank the idle to the max in attempt to keep it running then Jack with the mix, but I'm sure you've already tried that.
I'm still not sure how my 19mm arreche carb is good to go with the 20 idle jet with an extremely open airflow. I had a 38 idle jet in the stock carb, and a genuine that I worked on had a 45, stock all the way.
I'm at the point that I'm happy with my carb as it is just to avoid having to relearn it's quirks.
Anyways, glad to hear, hope it all comes together again before snowfall!
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Today I decided to tinker with the 9 again. After a little trial and more trial, I got the bike idling on its own ;D After a bit more tinkering I found a somewhat rideable setup. Currently running a 108 main and an unmarked idle from that came stock with the carb. The 38 was lean and my only other options were a 40, 48, and the unmarked jet. Since the mix seemed way out, I figured a 40 is still too lean. The 48 Bogged down so I figured it's too rich. The unmarked is ( I assume ) in the 44-47 range. Being that those are both odd sizes and the fact it came stock; I think it's safe to say that it's probably a 45 idle jet. I orignally was running (if you can call it that) a 100 main which caused a sputter an bogging throttle at WOT. Since my options here again are very limited I chose the 108 over the other options of 60, 75, 80,110. I'm planning to take the bike to school tomorrow. I have noticed a smell of rubber or possible clutch, so I think I will try a ride with the Hoca roller bearing base, removed.
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That bearing case puts a lot of extra tension on the torque spring. I was thinking of putting in my malossi white spring, but I've wore it in enough now that I get a good pickup of rpm from almost any speed between 0 and 40.
Glad you're finally getting her dialed in!
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I'm getting great acceleration from standing to 80kms but once the bike is warm and been ride hard for 30 mins or so, I notice that when I go from a WOT stretch to stop at a red light, the CVT stays in slightly higher rpm longer then I'd expect. I figure the roller bearing cap is just doing its job as they're designed to keep rpm up for course racing and to maintain rpm band coming out of turns. I guess it's just not the best for street stop n go traffic. Not bad, but not ideal either. :\
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Yeah, mine too. It took me a while to get used to. My biggest issue with traffic is the clutch wanting to jerk when trying not to go full on into the car that is in front of me.
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