KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => People 50 => Topic started by: chaz35 on January 04, 2015, 06:41:31 AM
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Got pipe on order, so I am researching how to modify CVT to work OK with pipe (Tecnigas Next R). Not sure if my CVT is stock or not, but works very well with stock muffler, derestricted CDI, and rejetted carb (installed 82 main jet). I am pretty sure it will be a dog with the new pipe on take off until engine gets enough rpms, then will take off and have better top end.
So, like Z said I probably need lighter rollers. I also know my other scooter (Super 9) needs some CVT tuning too. The other day, it was pitiful going up a hill, could bearly make 20mph until I crested the top then it took off. Doing some reading, I suspect it needs a stronger torque spring for that issue. Or, maybe have some worn parts?
I know enough about clutches to suspect I don't want stronger fly springs for the clutch, don't want it to slip excessively and generate a lot of heat. Probably try to stay stock on the fly springs and work around them tuning the rollers and torque spring. I know the length of the belt is critical, will probably stay with OEM belt. I am not racing anyone, just want it to work well riding around the neighborhood, be able to go fast enough to stay out of the way. I am not interested in pulling wheelies or smoking my tires.
Looking around at available parts, I found Scooter Assassins on eBay. They have a roller kit with various weight rollers so you can do some tuning for a very reasonable price. Same with the torque spring, there is a kit that has 3 different springs you can try in combination with the different rollers. Best I can tell, CVT is all about compromise. You use lighter rollers to stay in lower gear ratio longer, but they can hurt top speed. To get maximum top speed you may need to sacrifice some low end to get higher top speed with heavier rollers. Then you need to match the strength of the torque spring to the weight of the rollers. If the torque spring is too strong, you may need to install heavier rollers for the CVT to properly go from lower ratio to higher ratio, or possibly install softer torque spring.
I realize I know just enough to be dangerous. I just thought the Scooter Assassins kits looked pretty good for tuning purposes. After get it dialed in, maybe spend some $'s and get better components, like Dr Pulley sliders, better variator, clutch, etc. Anyone have experience with Scooter Assassins kits?, any comments welcomed. Cheers
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Everything you said is correct as for the tuning of your cvt.
Stay away from Scooter Assassins. They sell China JUNK.
Get a Malossi purple control spring, and a set of Malossi 5 gram rollers. That will match up well w/ any 8k pipe, and last for years w/ a good balance of torque/top end.
You're OEM rollers are 8 gram, and your OEM spring is equal to a Malossi yellow. (S - 9)
It's just that simple.
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My mechanic buddy told me that the rollers inside of my stock CVT are 15 x 12, 8,1g. So that confirms what Zombie said. BTW, he took everything apart and measured since I couldn't remove the cover of variator. He struggled with it too :o And told me that later I might want to change them for lighter ones. But I don't want to lose top speed because I often ride long distances (100+ miles).
CVT tuning is something I'm interested in too. My derestricted People S 2T is sluggish uphill. On flat ground it has top end 45 mph. I know it could be better. I've got derestricted CDI, vario, a Tecnigas Next R pipe (BTW what do you mean by 8k pipe?). These are the parts which I've already checked, because the previous owner didn't know what was done in his scoot (he just paid money and told some guys to make it run faster >:(). I'm mostly interested in making the uphill performance better, since I ride in area with a lot of mountains and there aren't many flat roads here.
All in all, I think I will look up those Malossi parts and give them a try ;D
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Get a Malossi purple control spring, and a set of Malossi 5 gram rollers. That will match up well w/ any 8k pipe, and last for years w/ a good balance of torque/top end.
Looks like my mechanic buddy was wrong! Malossi 15 x 12 rollers don't list Kymco on the list of compatible scooters for this size. 16 x 13 should be the correct ones, Malossi part number is 669823I0.
BTW, it's interesting that OEM rollers are 8 gram, but the Kymco spare parts book states 7,5 gram ???
I also found the spring, I think that's the one Z is talking about.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/537/bJGhYd.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/exbJGhYdp)
Chaz, Malossi part nr is 298324V0 in case you want to look for it :)
Zombie also mentioned "Malossi Black Fly springs for a real kick in the nutz" in another topic :D Are they much stronger than the stock ones? What would be the advantage and disadvantage of using them?
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Hello Z, thanks for reply, probably will do.
I think People 50 2T comes with 8.5gram rollers, Super 9 comes with 7.5gram. Both are 16x13mm.
Don't know about black springs, but suspect is stiffer spring that slips more, so engine is turning more rpms making more power at take off, so stronger take-off. If you are looking for fast take-off and/ or hill climbing, may need to go with stiffer springs. Just be easy until you learn the limits. If you do a little searching there are threads with pics of burned up clutches, belts, etc. Faster take-off and more $'s doesn't imply longevity and reliability.
If I was in hilly area, I would probably try lighter rollers and/ or stiffer torque spring, so scooter stays in lower gears longer. This set-up will sacrifice top speed, so that's the trade-off.
8000k pipe is rpm where pipe makes power. Stock pipe has peak power lower than 8000k pipe (approx 6500 rpms), racing pipe is higher than 8000k. You can get pipes that are engineered to make power 10,000 plus rpms, but would be pretty nuts trying to drive in traffic IMO. An 8000k pipe will be a little harder to tune than stock pipe, a 9000k pipe will make more power still, but be a little harder to tune than 8000k pipe generally.
There are very cool vids of Stage 6 racing scooters on youtube. There is one where 125cc scooter is racing a bunch of 1100cc motorcycles and runs up front, but I am sure costs lots of $'s, very loud, and touchy to tune.
I am a newbie, have very little experience with scooters or CVT's. I just know what I have read on web, which can be dangerous LOL's. I am having great fun with scooters. It's 30 degrees out today and I am planning to go riding. Cheers
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I'm reading a lot now, I've found a topic with good explanations here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?8960-Variator-roller-weights-and-contra-spring-mechanics-for-dummies (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?8960-Variator-roller-weights-and-contra-spring-mechanics-for-dummies)
Thanks for the knowledge that you shared with me/us :) I don't care about the take offs since I don't ride in the big traffic, I also don't want to sacrifice top speed (and reliability & longevity!). It's a shame that People S 50 doesn't have the gauge for RPM's, but I'm sure anyway that the reason why my scoot is sluggish uphill is because of too low RPM when going up, you can hear that easily. Funny thing is that when the terrain gets even more elevated, I can hear the RPM's and speed going up. So, it's like on moderate hills it climbs slowly, but on even more extreme ones it actually rides faster ??? Maybe I should just try rollers 1 gram lighter to see if uphill performance would be better without big sacrifices on flat top end.
Have fun riding today :) Here it's cold, 0C. I will definitely look for these videos, must be fun to watch a 125cc ride faster than a big bike.
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Both of you guys nailed it.
One gram lighter will help but not as much as two grams lighter. The main focus for hills is the stiffer Purple Malossi control spring for the rear pulleys. It forces the pulleys to stay closed at lower rpm, and gives you a better gear ratio, Just like down shifting.
You will NOT lose any top speed w/ lighter rollers UNLESS they are too light to open the rear pulleys. That is the Only purpose rollers have. To use their weight to counter act the spring in the pulleys.
The heavier the rollers the faster (lower rpm) the pulleys open. The lighter the rollers the longer it holds a lower gear.
I was mostly joking about using Malossi Black springs. They are mainly for drag racing because the bike sits still until approx 7-8 grand, and then it will take off like a rocket (with a proper racing clutch.)
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Yes, scooter drag racing is very cool too. Have seen good vids of scooter drag racing. Watched one compilation of a weekend meet and one guy had a monster 2T scooter. It was killing everybody else, approx 70mph plus in whatever distance they were racing, looked like 1/8th mile to me. The guys on 4T Chinese Clones were hitting approx 50mph and looked fast on the vid. Looked like fun, but nobody does it around here to my knowledge.
I was into minibikes before scooters and drag racing minibikes is big too. But I graduated to scooters and do not miss minibikes. Still ride in the yard with grandkids, but not on the street anymore, dangerous, illegal...
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I was mostly joking about using Malossi Black springs. They are mainly for drag racing because the bike sits still until approx 7-8 grand, and then it will take off like a rocket (with a proper racing clutch.)
Haha good that you mention it now :D
I'm not an expert but I think that 50mph on a Chinese 4T is a very nice speed. But I'm sure that 2T will always be faster, plus they are easier to work on and mod. 70mph is an enormous speed for such a little thing. I once heard that Yamaha Aerox is one of the fastest 50cc scooters that you can easily derestrict and modify to get speeds around 60mph.
OK so now I'm wondering whether to just get 6 gram rollers and stick with the stock spring, or go with the setting you proposed, that is the purple control spring and 5 gram rollers. Did you try both of these settings? The purple spring is stiffer than the stock one, and the 5 gram rollers are much lighter than the stock ones. Will these be able to open the rear pulleys for the top speed?
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It's a good combo for a 2t w/ an aftermarket pipe, ans carb work (re-jetting). If the bike is otherwise stock 6 gram, and the OEM spring is just fine. Better take off is the advantage along w/ better recovery in turns.
I've messed with a dozen springs (fly, and contra) as well as every combo of rollers you can imagine to run with them.
My ZX currently has 3 gram Polini rollers/Malossi red control/Malossi torsion controller/Stage 6 MK II clutch, and Malossi red fly springs. It's set up on an 82cc Polini Corsa/44mm stroked Doi clone engine w/ a 24mm OKO flatslide, and a Scorpion 9k pipe. Take of rpm is approx. 9k.
The bike red lines at 14k rpm thanks to an HPI programmable CDI so 0-60 is around 4 seconds even with taller rear gears.
I've been tuning case porting that bike for years, and I know it is the best it can be the way it sits today.
If anyone wants it, I'll trade for a bottle of Whiskey, and a pack of rolling papers. ;)
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I guess I will have to experiment and see what works for me... I want to replace the belt & rollers anyway. I will start with 6 gram Malossi rollers and stock spring.
Nice! I admire the amount of time & patience you invested in testing all the settings. It must feel sweet when you know that you've tried every setting out there and actually found the sweet spot!
So... do you ship internationally? ::)
EDIT: Wait, what? 0-60 MPH in 4 seconds? :o
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dude Warsaw, Poland!, that's cool, I am in Dallas, TX...it's a small world indeed. Cheers
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So... do you ship internationally? ::)
EDIT: Wait, what? 0-60 MPH in 4 seconds? :o
« Last Edit: Today at 07:48:36 AM by gosku »
Yes, and Yes. 82 mph top speed. Verified by a local cop, and his radar gun at Carabelle airfield, April 2014.
Since then I have removed the primary gears, kept the secondaries for a final gear ratio of 8.1::1, and ridden it exactly 32 miles.
Here's one of the threads on the bike. There's also a build thread on here somewhere...
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=11422.15 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=11422.15)
Build thread (incomplete)
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6494.msg67418#msg67418 (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=6494.msg67418#msg67418)
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Niiice! The part that got me laughing the most when was you stated all the details of the build of ZX and Vivo replied: "Lol! I thought you were listing your store's inventory...!" ;D
It's all like unbelievable to me... You're a boss man! Wouldn't you like to work for NASA? :D First spacescooter in history, made by Z 8)
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NASA wouldn't let me bring weed to work. I had to turn them down... ;)
I went nuts on that bike. It was fun, and worth every penny but I moved on to other things. Now I'm building a solar powered, vacuum assisted, fractional, concentric fuel ethanol column. It took longer to figure out what it is called than it took to design. It's about half built (prototype)
I have that, and a new design in Hydrofoil sport boats that are taking up my time. I had to put up a garage for building that prototype.
On top of that, and work every day... I've started classes in Organic Chemistry, and Pharmacology.
My goal is to be the first guy to sail a wind surfer to Mars, open a bar selling my own hootch, and make super drugs out of moon rock.
NASA can kiss my butt! I got this! 8)
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I laughed my ass off, you're hilarious!
I've seen the ethanol column in one of the threads, I don't have any idea of how that is supposed to work but it surely looks nice and tall haha. I see you from greater perspective now Z, you're not only a scooter genius, you're a maniac ;) So many projects and interests. Keep it up bro! Imma visit you on Mars for some nice hootch in the future ;D I just need to slightly modify my People S and I will be there.
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I'll distill the fuel for your trip Bro!. Maybe some "Space Speed" to keep ya goin' on that long ass trip.
I don't know what it is in me that makes me do the things I do. I've had more jobs that most people have had bicycles. More career choices than I can easily remember. Built more boats/cars/bikes/scooters than I could ever remember, and I still keep looking for the next best thing.
I'm running two businesses by myself MaxMarine Restoration, and Repair, and Carrabelle Engine Repair. Both legit, and paying taxes.
The HydroFoil business is something I am developing for a retirement business.
The fuel column is my own vision of a renewable fuel source. I'd like to see it implemented on a mass scale in the next 15 years.
The classes in Chemistry, and Pharmacology are just to amuse myself. I've been a fan of Sasha Shulgin for a long time, and I thought it would be nice to see what he see's, plus learning how/why the human body works in relation to the chemistry involved is fascinating.
Hell just learning the principles involved in all the things I do is fascinating. It took me about a month to learn the software to design the boats I am working on...
On top of that I am working on a one of a kind web site, (raymaran.com) and establishing a forum to support the hydrofoil community.
7 dogs/5 cats, and most of a fake Elk... Full plate brother!!!
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I will take a cistern of that fuel, since in space there is no gravity the People S should be able to pull it somehow! And another one of booze.
Wow all the things that you do! So many of them. And you seem to be passionate about every one of them! But the retirement business? Oh come on, zombies don't retire! 8)
I'm on the beginning of the road, on the contrary. Not only here, at the forum, also in life. I'm studying Human Resources now, got a degree in Swedish philology and work full time in administration of an IT company. I like mountains and everything that has two wheels. I've started with bicycles, year after year I was making bigger trips, but also worked on my mechanic skills. I've always did everything regarding the bicycles I rode myself. Then my dad a few years ago bought the People S from a friend. I remember that he took me as a passenger on that day, later he got off and told me to try riding it. I did a big nice circle, then I stopped and I forgot that even that it's bigger and heavier than a bicycle, you still have to support yourself with a foot when you stop. I forgot about that, and I fell off on the left side, together with the scooter ;D That was so stupid and funny. Then a few months later and I thought to give it a try again, because I needed some kind of the transport on that day. It was a sunny, warm day and the mountain roads where I come from are beautiful. Since then, I did many miles on it, mostly on mixed trips (that's what I call a trip where I first ride it to some distant place near the mountains and then I get my ass up and spend the rest of the day on climbing or trekking some summits, and then I return). I always liked the freedom the two-wheelers are able to give you. Never was a fan of the sport bikes though. I'm thinking about driver's license now, would love to get a second, bigger bike - Suzuki DL VStrom 650. That's what I'm aiming at. But the People S stays within my family anyway! And I guess I like to fix things, improve them for better performance. And that is what got me here 8)
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It really sounds like you're on the right path Gosku.
Keep you feet on the ground, and your head in the air. Keep seeking out the answers to whatever issue arises. Most of all, keep exploring.
I always find the coolest things when I am looking for nothing in particular.
Ps... Irish philosophy is much easier that Swedish... Pour another Whiskey tonight, and worry tomorrow.
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Thanks Z. I will do my best.
It's a good advice. I think that when you're looking for something particular and you have your whole focus on it, you can sometimes become narrow minded, seeing the trees but not the forest itself. It's good to take a step back.
Haha that's right, I have a day off tomorrow and I think I'm gonna practice this philosophy. Will post later about the results ;D
BTW, I'm going to buy the speedo drive gear tomorrow, I called one of the local shops and they have it on stock. Gonna grab a new OEM Bando belt too. Later this week I will order the Malossi spring, rollers and brake pads. I also found Malossi rear brake shoes, I think I will get those too.
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You're golden Lil' brother!
Life is a great journey. Just beware of the conductor... Pick your own stops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNH32rKXqd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNH32rKXqd0)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaHDCcUcmc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaHDCcUcmc0)
Just a thought...
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Wow, nice audition! Thanks buddy :) Times may have changed, but these advices are still helpful.
Yea smoking crack on tv... LOL. Pretty badass 8)
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I watched Dead Snow last night... Hilarious but it was in Polish, and I didn't D'load the subs. I got enough of it to see it was kinda like Evil Dead. One of my all time favorites.
They tried to make it scary, and some bits were but for the most part... Funny as hell! Thanks!
Tonight Part II!
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Glad you liked it! That's exactly what I'm thinking about that movie - it's something between scary and funny, and quite silly but in a positive way.
I haven't had the time to watch the part 2 yet, but will definitely do that soon.
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Finally got Tecnigas Next-R pipe installed. I originally tried to order 1-1-15, took 2 weeks to figure out they didn't accept my credit card payment, so ordered again. Long story short, took long time for parts to come in. By the time I got the parts, wasn't sure I still wanted to mess with my 50's anymore. Been looking at Sym HD200, Honda PCX150, People S 200, etc. Finally got over bigger scooters, still like my 50's the best.
For test, I just installed the pipe, added pod air filter, and rejetted the carb. People 50 2T is AC so I wanted to be sure jetted rich, because seems like I run it WOT 90% of the time. I installed the largest jets I had: 45 idle jet, and 108 main jet. Fired it up and took for test run approx 1 hour, maybe 40 miles. I wasn't planning to run it that long, but was so much fun, I just kept going and going.
Runs good, top end definitely better, mid range a little better, low end not as good as before, but that was expected. Actually, wasn't bad low end, seemed to run a little better longer I ran it, maybe blew out the pipe a little. Pipe was a lot quieter than old Tecnigas pipe on Super 9, so new muffler makes a big difference.
For CVT, as recommended by Z, I have Malossi 5.1 gr rollers, and Malossi purple torque spring. I pulled off the CVT cover, and took off the variator and clutch. Everything looked good and appeared to be OEM. I checked the width of the belt and seemed a little less than new belt, but appeared OK. I measured and came to approx 17mm, so I didn't replace it. I replaced the rollers with new Malossi 5.1 gr rollers and put it all back together. I want to test it again, before I change out the torque spring. The torque spring looked red, so maybe that was aftermarket, I don't know.
I used my impact driver to disassemble and reassemble with blue loctite . I would rather use a torque wrench, but haven't firgured out how to hold variator/ clutch, plus seems everybody else just slams it on with impact drivers now a days.
Supposed to rain next few days, so will test and report back when I can. I didn't test tonight, want to let loctite set.
I really like my People 50 2T, maybe as well as Super 9 LC. Super 9's are pretty rare around here, but People 50's come up from time to time, will probably get another one. Cheers
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Hi Chaz! I'm glad to see the progress and that you didn't abandon the sweet 50 ;)
For sure it's better to run a little more on the rich side than lean! I'm very curious how is the bike going to run on 5.1 rollers with a red (OEM?) spring. I'm planning to do my upgrades in about 2 weeks, have some sets of the Malossi rollers prepared as well as the purple spring, but I was thinking to just go down with 1 gram on the rollers and then see if that fits my needs :)
You have a stock/OEM carburetor right?
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5.1 gr rollers too light, engine revs past powerband, scooter slower. I left the purple torque spring in and reinstalled the OEM rollers (I think 8 gr), and works pretty well, maybe a little better than stock. I don't know, but think OEM torque spring is OK, just need some lighter rollers, maybe 7 or 6 gr would work well. I am pretty sure I had OEM torque spring, it had some red paint on it, but was not stiff, was softer than purple spring.
Was really educational to see the effect of the 5.1 gr rollers, just like installing lower gear. I still had good top speed, so 5.1 gr rollers were heavy enough with purple spring, but with a stiffer spring, would probably effect top speed too.
5.1 gr rollers would probably work OK with racing engine. Kart racing 2 cycle engines usually make peak torque approx 10,000 to 11,000 revs. I can tell People 50 engine makes peak torque way below anything like that. Wish I had a tach and cylinder head temp hooked up to it, could really tune it then. Actually, only need cylinder head temp, you can tell when making HP when get higher temps, so you know engine is working at peak torque zone, because it's making a lot of temp. Also, can tell from tone of exhaust, it's loudest, sounds the coolest when making max torque, like a mean chain saw on it's powerband.
CVT's are really cool the way they work. I didn't have any trouble working on it, but I have a nice impact driver, which helps a lot. I even had a 1.5" socket to take apart the clutch, so that was cool. Haven't quite got relationship between roller weight and stiffness of torque spring down, but have a pretty good idea now. If engine is running too slow, need lighter rollers, if engine is over revving, need heavier rollers. I don't really think you need a stiffer torque spring with street engine set-up, just lighter rollers, but I am no expert for sure.
Cheers
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Finally got Tecnigas Next-R pipe installed. I originally tried to order 1-1-15, took 2 weeks to figure out they didn't accept my credit card payment, so ordered again. Long story short, took long time for parts to come in. By the time I got the parts, wasn't sure I still wanted to mess with my 50's anymore. Been looking at Sym HD200, Honda PCX150, People S 200, etc. Finally got over bigger scooters, still like my 50's the best.
For test, I just installed the pipe, added pod air filter, and rejetted the carb. People 50 2T is AC so I wanted to be sure jetted rich, because seems like I run it WOT 90% of the time. I installed the largest jets I had: 45 idle jet, and 108 main jet. Fired it up and took for test run approx 1 hour, maybe 40 miles. I wasn't planning to run it that long, but was so much fun, I just kept going and going.
Runs good, top end definitely better, mid range a little better, low end not as good as before, but that was expected. Actually, wasn't bad low end, seemed to run a little better longer I ran it, maybe blew out the pipe a little. Pipe was a lot quieter than old Tecnigas pipe on Super 9, so new muffler makes a big difference.
For CVT, as recommended by Z, I have Malossi 5.1 gr rollers, and Malossi purple torque spring. I pulled off the CVT cover, and took off the variator and clutch. Everything looked good and appeared to be OEM. I checked the width of the belt and seemed a little less than new belt, but appeared OK. I measured and came to approx 17mm, so I didn't replace it. I replaced the rollers with new Malossi 5.1 gr rollers and put it all back together. I want to test it again, before I change out the torque spring. The torque spring looked red, so maybe that was aftermarket, I don't know.
I used my impact driver to disassemble and reassemble with blue loctite . I would rather use a torque wrench, but haven't firgured out how to hold variator/ clutch, plus seems everybody else just slams it on with impact drivers now a days.
Supposed to rain next few days, so will test and report back when I can. I didn't test tonight, want to let loctite set.
I really like my People 50 2T, maybe as well as Super 9 LC. Super 9's are pretty rare around here, but People 50's come up from time to time, will probably get another one. Cheers
I just got mine a few days ago from RC Europe. Took a little over 30 days. Incredible pipe!
Mine came derestricted. Might want to make sure yours is derestricted if you want every ounce of power.
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If engine is running too slow, need lighter rollers, if engine is over revving, need heavier rollers.
I think your "rule" is pretty accurate and very simple! Thanks for details of your testing experience. If I remember correctly the OEM rollers are 8.1 gram. I'm planning to leave the spring as it is and insert 7 gram rollers and if it won't be good (but I honestly believe it will be better!) I will change to 6 gram. I'm keeping the 5.1 gram rollers and purple spring as a third option.
If you say that OEM spring was softer than the purple, it would mean that you could try a bit heavier rollers now with the purple spring, probably 6 or 7 gram. And for the OEM spring the rollers wouldn't need to be so heavy because it's soft as you said - a slight change of weight, from 8 gram to 6 or 7 could work nice!
This is all in theory, I'm no expert!
Good that you have proper tools! You can test many different settings now just by yourself.
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I ordered some Dr Pulley sliders, hope I am getting the real thing because price was pretty good, not much more than top of the line rollers like Malossi/ Polini, vendor was selling them on ebay and amazon, has good feedback/ reviews so I think probably OK. Have Dr Pulley 7.5, 7, 6.5gr coming so should be able to dial it in really nice.
With OEM rollers and purple Malossi torque spring, pretty close now. People 50 2T probably running as well as my Super 9 LC, maybe better. I keep one scooter at my son-n-laws (50 plus miles away) to ride with him, so can't compare here. Best way for me to compare is to ride with son-n-law with him on his Super 8 150.
Rode approx 2 hrs last night, was running strong. Actually, at this point I like my People 50 2T about as well as Super 9 LC, which is saying a lot. New pipe seems to be running better, maybe needs a break-in. I don't think it's restricted, or if it's restricted I don't know where restriction is? It's just a little different than my other Tecnigas pipe, maybe some of the tubing is a little larger diameter, and is a little longer overall. I may swap pipes between People 50 2T and Super 9 LC to see it makes any difference.
Experience with People 50 CVT makes me want to open up Super 9 CVT and adjust it too, it could definitely be running a little better and needs some attention.
I looked at 2008 Sym HD200 for sale locally yesterday, rode it some, very cool scooter, but at this point I still like 50's better. I am going about as fast as I want to (especially after dark), a few times need a little more power, but not often. So far, I am getting my need for speed with 50's and very fun to tweak too. Nothing to do to bigger scooter, just ride it. I could be like Harley riders around here, I blew by one a few days ago like he was on a bicycle. Cheers
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Have some more thoughts on CVT. I have read CVT are approx 85% efficient. I assume most of the 15% lost power goes to friction from belt dragging on the variator and clutch pullys.
It seems to me a stronger torque spring will cause more friction/ less HP getting to rear tire. So, appears want to run the weakest torque spring that gives the performance you are looking for (CVT starts out in low gear and smoothly moves to higher gear as you gain speed with engine running at just below maximum torque).
As HP goes up, CVT will require stronger torque spring to keep belt from slipping on the pullys. As RPMs goes up, a stronger torque spring will be required to offset the higher force from the rollers spinning at higher speeds, generating more centrifugal force. Appears you can tune the CVT to run pretty much the same with a stronger torque spring and heavier rollers, compared to weaker torque spring and lighter rollers, but I bet all other parameters the same, the scooter with the lighter rollers and weaker torque spring will be faster.
Cheers
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This is very interesting! I bet you did a nice research on the CVT. I'm wondering what Zombie could tell us about this lost friction and what would be the difference between two perfectly aligned sets of torque spring + rollers, but one set being lighter than the other. Hey Z, you around pal? ;D
I heard that Dr Pulley sliders are more durable, but also their weight doesn't correspond exactly to the weight of rollers, for example if you have 7 gram Dr Pulley sliders and 7 gram rollers they won't work the same way. But it's only what I have heard.
My People 50 definitely needs higher RPM's, it climbs mountains with too low RPMs and on too high of a gear and hardly downshifts if the hill isn't very steep (14% or so). I think I will swap the rollers from 8 to 6 gram first, 7 may give little difference and I doubt that 6 grams will be overkill. I will definitely post in 1,5 week and let you know about my expierences with CVR!
I bought mine with Tecnigas pipe already on it, but I have no clue what model it is. Any clues on how to check that? By looking on pictures, it looks like Tecnigas Next R, but it's not dark or blue, mine looks like carbon fiber or at least a pretty good imitation of it.
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Yes, Z has disappeared for some reason, hope he's OK.
I didn't mention, but I also installed the Malossi torsion controller. I don't know if it's helping that much, but can't hurt. I added it to my order when I got the pipe so I could get free shipping. I like it, will probably order another one for my other scooter.
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/M2512827/Torsion+Control+MALOSSI+Minarelli+50+cc (http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/M2512827/Torsion+Control+MALOSSI+Minarelli+50+cc)
As I understand it, if your CVT is not downshifting when scooter gets slowed down going up a hill, you need a stronger torsion spring. You want the lightest torsion spring that works properly. So, if CVT is not downshifting, it's not working properly, may need stiffer torsion spring.
My Super 9 LC has this problem, but I haven't fixed it yet. After I installed Uni air filter and rejetted the carb to 42 idle jet and 105 main jet, seemed like the CVT worked better on Super 9, but still not perfect. I think CVT working the same, but engine making better torque so can pull through lower gear better. I experienced the same effect on People 50 too.
I really like the pod air filters, if you can stand the extra noise. People 50 was really quite with OEM exhaust, now sounds mean and working hard, not as loud and annoying as chain saw, sounds acceptable to me, don't feel like I need ear plugs, espicially with helmet on. Plus, in traffic cagers are more likely to notice you are close by which is safer IMO.
I understand the Dr Pulley sliders work a little different from rollers too. Can't remember if Dr Pulley sliders work like lighter rollers or vise versa.
Another effect I just realized last ride was throttle control is different on scooter with CVT. Sometimes, when engine is lugged down too much can get a little better performance by backing off the throttle a little, because the carb will work a little better. But scooter with CVT likes WOT all the time. I used to race kart with 100cc 2 cycle engine direct drive, no clutch, so coming off slow turns engine was lugged down and liked less throttle better. I got used to that and now realize scooters don't need you to feather the throttle.
Cheers
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You got it exactly right with the torque spring, you want the lightest possible otherwise the CVT has to work through extra friction. Those torque control things do actually work, I have the Polini version on my Zuma. I just installed one on a customers vespa that is actually a bearing, and has almost zero friction, pretty cool. One of the most important things you can do to keep the variator shifting right is CLEAN IT!!!!!!! At least once a year, take the variator apart and clean the poop out, I like to use polishing compound to make the boss ultra smooth, and make sure all the belt dust is out of where the boss contacts the movable pulley. Make sure all the ramps are clean of belt gunk, carb cleaner works wonders.
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Thanks for post B&L. I didn't know how to clean mine, I just put it back the way it was, next time I have it apart I will clean it some. Brake cleaner is my go to cleaner, so I will go at it with brake cleaner and compressed air. What about lub, I have seen some CVT grease, what do you think? I've seen the torque controllers with ball bearings, looks very cool to me, 50's probably don't make enough HP to need that.
Next thing I am looking for is higher gearing. That's one reason I bought some Dr Pulley sliders, they claim to have a little more top end. My engine is making good power and just running out of gear. When I ride it now, I keep it 50mph on the speedo max, it will go 1/2" or more past the final top speed from time to time, but engine sounds like its over revving, so I don't like going there now. I don't think I am hurting it, just wearing it out faster?
I don't know, but think you can get variators that run the belt a little higher on the pulley for more top gear. I recall some posts about running the belt high enough to have to worry about getting the belt into the starter gear teeth. If not too expensive, might try one of those. I guess you then need a longer belt?
These scoots are really fun to tweak and ride. I rode mine over 3 hours today, it was a blast. Cheers
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Yeah man, the key is to not stay at wot for a long time, over 10k is pushing the stock crank plus air cooling. The "overrange" kits are SICK, i have one for my zuma. Malossi MHR, was about $350 totally worth every buck. I have yet to see one for the kymco engines. It replaces the variator and rear pulley with larger ones, getting low low gear and higher high gear. If you get upgears, your scoot will suffer off the line a bit, if that matters for where you use the bike. I love tuning 2t 50cc's also, you get huge gains relatively. I'm too the point with my zuma where my next stage is gonna be about $600 from Germany and a couple weeks porting the case haha. Maybe my winter project.
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Yes, will be interesting to see how it holds up.
Traffic is pretty fast around here, speed limit 40 to 45mph most roads I ride on, so some cagers driving 50 plus. If speed limit is over 45mph, I usually stay off that road, except for short runs. There are a fair number of red lights to wait at, so it gets some rest. Engine has never acted like it was hot, always idles nice, runs very consistent, starts easy, with 108 main jet it burns lots of gas LOLs.
I suspect it will give good service for long time. I am thinking positive and ordered some new tires and Malossi variator tonight. I am hoping Dr Pulley sliders and Malossi variator will give me a little more top end. Cheers
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Got in Dr Pulley sliders and tried 7.5gr 1st. I cleaned the variator with brake cleaner and wiped it clean with a rag. Then, I blew out the inside of CVT casting and cover with compressed air. At least will be able to see any additional belt dust, next time I open it up. Put it all back together and took it for a ride.
I want to say, Kymco variator and clutch appear to be well engineered. Kart clutches are fairly problematic, break easy, come off easy, generally give you trouble, especially if you don't know what you are doing. The CVT variator and clutch both go on splined shafts which is very good design IMO. After I get it tuned to perfection, I will use blue loctite to finish it, but up to now only tightened it down with impact, then rode it for hours and hours and no problems. I was expecting it to come off, but after awhile I realized the splined shaft is doing the business, no problems.
With Malossi purple torque spring and Dr Pulley 7.5gr sliders installed CVT worked very well. From stop was awesome, acceleration great, top speed a little better, going up hills seems to pull down some gear and pulled up hill on powerband. I could cruise at less than WOT and stay at max on the speedo just modulating the throttle going to WOT from time to time.
I think with OEM torque spring will take 7 or 6.5gr sliders, but may be making enough HP to slip belt going up a hill or into a strong wind with OEM spring, I don't know.
This scooter is feeling fast, I am very happy with it. Cheers
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Are you going to test other sets of Dr Pulley or are you completely satisfied with the 7.5 gr ?
Heck, I have the purple spring and the torsion controller, can as well go for Dr Pulley instead of rollers... But having in mind what you guys said about the lost power due to friction, maybe it's better to stay on OEM spring, which is softer.
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Probably won't be doing anymore testing until Malossi variator with white spring (I think equivalent to OEM) comes in. I got the extra Dr Pulley weights so I would have them to use if needed. Since scooter running so nice, probably just ride it some. After awhile, I will get my Super 9 back home and work on it's CVT, and now have plenty of parts to get it tuned up nice, too. Compared to People 50 CVT, Super 9 CVT is lousy now lol's.
I got Dr Pulley because they were not that much more than Malossi/ Polini rollers. If your's working well, I wouldn't recommend changing it all up just for some small effect. I haven't tried Dr Pulley sliders with the OEM or white spring, but I am pretty sure going from purple spring to OEM or white spring will change weight of rollers needed, so I may eventually use 7 or 6.5gr sliders.
Also, interesting effect with purple spring and 7.5gr sliders, engine maybe over revs a little from dead stop then settles down some as I gain speed. I am thinking maybe compromise in design of CVT, maybe not possible to tune out that effect with OEM variator, so will be interesting to see how Malossi variator performs. I can see getting some more Malossi torque springs to try too, I think there is at least one between the white and purple. You get it tuned too perfect and you will start to notice changes in how it works day to day depending on the weather/ season of the year lol's.
Cheers
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I'm very curious about the Malossi variator. I didn't even know that those are available for our People 50.
Where I live Dr Pulley is nearly 2x more expensive than Malossi / Polini rollers. But that's not a big deal. Anyway, I will stick with Malossi rollers and OEM spring for now, and will do some tests with different weights of rollers. Gonna start on Monday, already called my mechanic. I'd like to be able to mess with CVT by myself in the future, but as for now I've got only a variator blocking tool and a lot of common wrenches, but no impact one. Do you think that impact wrench is a must? And why the loctite?
Haha you nailed it! "Look, there's a mountain! Let's stop now and change the spring in the CVT" ;D
I've got a similar "thing" going with the carburetor. I adjust the idle screw nearly on a daily basis, especially since the altitude (and maybe humidity) seems to affect it. But it takes just two seconds!
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If you have holding tools, I would use that. I may eventually get some holding tools for clutch and variator. Actually, I mainly use impact for disassembly. I don't think very accurate for assembly, either over or under torque. I guess if you used it a lot, and had a really nice high quality impact could get pretty good at it. However, at the kart races, I see them used a lot and causing trouble, like stripping out bolts/ threaded holes, and stuff coming loose.
I use loctite to glue fasterners (nuts/ bolts), keeps them from coming loose. Don't use red, too strong very hard to disassemble. I have red, but generally only use blue.
I like to use old fashion beam style torque wrench, I have 2 I have used for 20 plus years and still work great. The fancy adjustable style needs to be recalibrated after it's used over time and few do that, so not that accurate IMO, simple is always better.
I didn't have impact driver for long time, but eventually got one to save time and my energy. I worn out the 1st one, batteries wear out over time and won't take a charge anymore. It's really a great tool to have. This is link to my latest one, so far I am very happy with it.
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-19.2-volt-impact-driver-kit/p-00931304000P (http://www.sears.com/craftsman-19.2-volt-impact-driver-kit/p-00931304000P)
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I probably don't need Malossi variator, but got it because think it may give me a little more top speed. Will be interesting to see how it performs, will report on that when I get it and have it installed, may be awhile.
The way my CVT behaves now started me thinking about the fly springs and the angled slots on the torque driver. I decided early on not to use stronger fly springs for more slip, cause more slip means more heat, faster wear, more problems. But thought occurred if slip the clutch a little more, rpms will move up and maybe be an adjustment for how soon the CVT moves from lower to higher gear ratio. Probably nothing here, but I am going to do some thinking about it anyway.
Have also been thinking about angled slots on torque driver. Not sure how this puppy works, but appears angle varies spring tension depending upon whether engine is accelerating or decelerating. I noticed Malossi makes one that has 2 sets of slots at different angles so you can use it for tuning, very interesting.
All for now, time to ride my scooter. Cheers
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The angles of the torque driver changes how easy the belt can "pull" into higher gear. Think of it this way, if the slots were straight the only thing holding the belt back would be the spring tension, so with more angle the resistance to open the rear pulley is higher. My malossi mhr overrange came with the pulley that has two different angle slots. The steeper angle keeps the rpms up for longer, until the torque shifts the pulley. The main difference from all my looking into it, a lot of stock pulleys have slots that aren't one angle, they get less angle while the pulley travels apart causing that "shift" in some scooters that kills acceleration. The Malossi ramps are straight creating a very constant rpm operation. Took me a long time of thinking it over to fully grasp how important the rear pulley is in a cvt. On a side note the Malossi variator is AWESOME, you will feel a huge difference in smoothness, and acceleration and top speed should be a little better. Mostly your rpm will stay more constant and rev up exactly how you want it to. They take a strange weight size, but you can find the sliders for them. Ps I have a lightly used mhr delta clutch for Kymco engines, just posted in for sale check it out if you guys are interested. Took it out of a used scoot before it sold, would boost acceleration greatly.
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B&L thanks for post, very interesting, have to think about it some more. I still am trying to figure out how the torque driver works mechanically, how the parts fit together. I only had it apart 1 time and can't remember exactly how it all goes together. Fun to learn new stuff. Cheers
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Looked up torque spec for variator and clutch, only 25 ft #'s, so feeling more comfortable with using impact driver. Also, many would object, but probably OK to use piston stop to hold variator, and rear brakes to hold clutch for assembly/ to properly torque to 25 ft #'s.
Don't use impact driver and piston stop!!!
Got in Malossi variator kit 519988, looks nice, why they include 9gr rollers I don't know. Ordered Malossi torque driver to go with it and green torque spring. I will have white (OEM stiffness), green +60% stiffness, and purple +82% stillness Malossi torque springs, so should be able to really dial it in.
Rode scooter approx 100 miles today, runs great with OEM CVT with 7.5gr Dr Pulley sliders and Malossi Purple torque spring. I am thinking all the new Malossi stuff is overkill. Although CVT does work very well, there is a lot of modulation going on, over revs some from stop, then settles down and does gear shift thing, but scooter is flying. I can tell some torque/ HP left on the table, but how much?, will just have to install all the cool new Malossi stuff and see how it runs.
I am thinking need straight cut torque driver to eliminate gear shift, otherwise have to compromise with too much revs sometimes and too little others. With straight cut torque driver, should be able to get nice flat powerband from stop to top speed?, or maybe too much to hope for, we will see.
Had fun today. Cheers
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Score, i love their parts. Such quality.
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Awesome my friend! I'm glad to hear you are satisfied with the performance. I'm dying to read what Malossi variator set did to your CVT and if it's worth the buck, let us know when you test ride it!
Have fun!
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Installed all the new Malossi parts. Thought about testing all the different components, finally decided too much trouble. Could really see the ramps were higher on the Malossi variator, appears will close the pulley more for possible higher gear. Diameter about the same, maybe a little more. The limiting factor is the housing for the starter bendix in the CVT casting. I installed the 9gr rollers, because the white spring had at least 2 more coils than the purple one I took out, I guess I got the right torque spring, makes me wonder? Not much difference in stiffness, maybe white one stiffer?
Noticed kick starter is separate from electric starter, so understand how that works now.
I disassembled the torque driver to see how to do it and noticed the slots had a pretty shallow dog leg, less than I thought I would see. I realized I had the spring collar assembled wrong, had both collars on torque driver side, so fixed that. Don't have the Malossi torque driver yet, so put it all back together with the white spring.
Raining here, no testing yet. Will report soon. Cheers
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White torque spring too stiff, revs way past powerband, no top end speed. So, kit as it came with 9gr rollers, white torque spring doesn't work for me. Maybe would work on more modified engine with more HP and higher powerband, I don't know. Actually, after doing a little research, I think it may be for an over range rear pulley, which is not what I have, but maybe some that buy the kit have an over range rear pulley? Apparently, just the color is not all you need to know, not all Malossi white springs are the same.
Put it back the way it was with new Malossi variator, Kymco OEM torque spring and Dr Pulley 7.5gr sliders. Ran pretty well, really likes to stay in low gear and rev, pretty much have to give it WOT to get going, took awhile to get use to. Once moving, works a lot better keeping revs up if get slowed and need to accelerate again, revs will come right back up. Top end a little better, I really like the mid and top end with the Malossi variator. Seems like it needs a little heavier rollers, so will try my OEM Kymco 8gr rollers next. I like it, don't want to go back to OEM variator at this point. Not sure, but seems faster in traffic.
Pretty confused about Malossi torque springs. I thought the white spring was supposed to be OEM replacement. If you look at a torque spring with the end on top and bottom facing you and count the wires, I get 8 for the white, 6 for the purple I have, 6 for the OEM Kymco. If you search for images on the web you can count number of coils for the same colors and get different numbers. Seems like 7 is the correct number of coils for standard rear pulleys and maybe more for over range pulleys, I don't know. Anyway, the white one I got with the kit I can't use. Now I know why the purple one works so well, it's not +82%, is missing 1 coil, has 6 appears should have 7, so is probably same as OEM Kymco. Torque springs, something else to learn about. Cheers
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Yeah man most of the mhr stuff is really for high end race, my over range came with like 3.5g rollers lol. And with the springs, there's more than just the coils, the actual thickness off the metal in the coils plays a big part too. I try and not base it off color and go with feel, put them both on the ground and feel how much resistance it has compared to another. The spring is installed almost fully compressed so make sure to feel it all the way to the floor.
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B&L you are right as usual. I think all is well, scooter is running better than ever. Just a surprise about the white Malossi torque spring, and appears my other one a purple is a little different too. Oh well, learned something new today. Cheers
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Nice! Funny that in the end you returned to some OEM parts!
Today I installed Malossi torsion controller, changed the belt to a new one (OEM of course) and changed the OEM rollers to Malossi 7 grams. The spring is the stock one. The difference is huge. According to my speedometer (which I have fixed today too) I'm doing above 60kmh when going uphill, and the hills are actually quite steep. Before changes I managed to ride 40kmh at best. Another good thing is that if I brake when riding uphill, I can then gain the 60kmh again with no problem. The engine stays at good RPMs no matter the terrain. On flat I'm fast to 70kmh, then it slows down but I'm nearly able to get to the limit on my speedo which is 80kmh. Probably Malossi variator could help improve this even more, but overally I'm very satisfied and do not want to mess with torsion springs / rollers anymore because it feels like I have already found the sweet spot :)
Happy riding!
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Yes, unless you just want to tweak it, I would stay with what you have. My experience same as yours, will run very well just changing out to lighter rollers. I am going to try 9gr rollers in mine next.
Also, I thought about cutting a couple of coils off the white torque spring and trying it. I know I will loose the nice flat part on one end of the spring, but with the spring collar, maybe won't cause a problem? Cheers
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Yes, unless you just want to tweak it, I would stay with what you have. My experience same as yours, will run very well just changing out to lighter rollers. I am going to try 9gr rollers in mine next.
Also, I thought about cutting a couple of coils off the white torque spring and trying it. I know I will loose the nice flat part on one end of the spring, but with the spring collar, maybe won't cause a problem? Cheers
One thing I just found out about my Malossi variator on my Zuma, it takes the 19x15.5 rollers, and I've been using Dr. Pulley sliders for some time. I found out this weekend that they are flipping in place. I tested it then checked it right away and sure enough they are flipping. So I went back to regular rollers and they work great. So if your malossi vario that takes the 19x15.5 rollers is acting funny, try rollers.
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Thanks for heads up on Dr Pulley sliders, Malossi variator takes 16x13, and I think the 16x13 7.5gr Dr Pulley sliders were working OK, except too light.
Today, I tried the 9gr Malossi rollers that came with the kit. Wow, they worked great, seemed to be pretty close to perfect. Only other issue is the Malossi torque driver I am waiting on. When it comes in I will install it, test it, and report. Probably wasted $'s on it, because the shift with the OEM torque driver is very slight with the Malossi variator installed. With the OEM variator, the shift was very pronounced, but acceptable. The Malossi variator will be faster/ better but at additional cost and trouble.
If you are happy with the OEM variator, I wouldn't recommend the Malossi unless you are looking for a little more acceleration/ speed. For me, the Malossi variator kit is worth it. I will definitely be buying another Malossi variator kit for my Super 9 LC. At this point, I think my People 50 2T is way faster than my Super 9.
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Must just be the overrange malossi variator that takes the large weights. O well rollers for this setup lol. Yeah man, i like the people 50 body style better than the super 9, don't tell anyone tho!! Always wanted to make a murdered out people 50, and toss about $1000 on Italian goodies at it. Have people laughing everywhere you drive.
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After some extended riding I must say I'm impressed and I think lighter rollers gave me the RPM's I wanted, but the Malossi torsion controller seems to have provided me with very smooth acceleration! And I feel like I have some power left unused in the engine when it comes to top end speed on flat. How do you improve it? Probably need to mess with final gear's teeth amount?
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Yes, I concluded probably leaving some top speed on the table without change in final drive gearing. I think it's probably a good compromise, because with 50 have very limited HP. If gear for more top speed, will have less acceleration and from time to time no top speed due to headwind and/ or uphill road. So, I think final gearing is about right for what we have. Mine will run at 50mph/ 80kmh fairly easily at part throttle, giving it WOT from time to time to maintain speed.
You can get more top speed by over rev'ng engine, for example if going 50mph at 10,000 revs, wouldn't 12,000 revs give you another 10mph or 60mph for short burst of speed. But modifying engine to turn 12,000 revs would be a lot of trouble/ $'s and probably ruin bottom power anyway, so I don't want to go there.
As I understand it, BBK doesn't give you any more top speed, still have final gear issue. BBK would pull up hills better, but the way mine is running now, there are very few places I get slowed down much going up a hill. Mine will accelerate up most hills. Cheers
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B&L, when I ride my Super 9, I like it the best, but funny when I ride my People 50, I like it the best.
When I 1st discovered Aprilia Scarabeo 50 2Ts I really liked them, still do. I almost bought one, but in end they are always more $'s than People 50's. Plus, I am comfortable with Kymco and working on/ getting parts for Aprilia is an unknown. I have seen a few disparaging comments about getting parts from Aprilia/ Piaggio, but have no personal experience, it's probably not an issue, but I don't know.
I actually like the way the People 50 looks better than Scarabeo now too. The Scarabeo looks a little more feminine to me, People a little more manly. A lot depends on paint color, because if you search for images, there are some really cool looking Scarabeo's out there and some People's, like two tone white with baby blue that definitely look like a girl's scooter.
One issue for me is does the Super 9 LC stock OEM engine make more HP than the AC engine? I know it's capable of more HP, but that's not my question. I am thinking it makes about the same HP, is ported the same, has the same compression, has same carb, will run about the same derestricted with Tecnigas pipe, rejetted carb, pod air filter like I run mine, but I don't know.
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B&L, when I ride my Super 9, I like it the best, but funny when I ride my People 50, I like it the best.
When I 1st discovered Aprilia Scarabeo 50 2Ts I really liked them, still do. I almost bought one, but in end they are always more $'s than People 50's. Plus, I am comfortable with Kymco and working on/ getting parts for Aprilia is an unknown. I have seen a few disparaging comments about getting parts from Aprilia/ Piaggio, but have no personal experience, it's probably not an issue, but I don't know.
I actually like the way the People 50 looks better than Scarabeo now too. The Scarabeo looks a little more feminine to me, People a little more manly. A lot depends on paint color, because if you search for images, there are some really cool looking Scarabeo's out there and some People's, like two tone white with baby blue that definitely look like a girl's scooter.
One issue for me is does the Super 9 LC stock OEM engine make more HP than the AC engine? I know it's capable of more HP, but that's not my question. I am thinking it makes about the same HP, is ported the same, has the same compression, has same carb, will run about the same derestricted with Tecnigas pipe, rejetted carb, pod air filter like I run mine, but I don't know.
Yeah man, I flipped a Scabeo 50cc a while ago. Drove it for a month or so. Awesome bike, has the minarelli (zuma) engine. I liked the bike, not quite as fast as the older p50. ZERO storage, smaller gas tank, horrible Italian design that is really hard to work on the carb and engine, very, very skinny tires ( I swapped mine to P50 tires!!). As for the LC Vs AC Kymco, they prolly put out the same power stock vs stock. The liquid cooling makes a huge difference after modded.
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B&L thanks for reply. I see Super 9 AC and LC and wonder if AC would be good. I am thinking AC would work well for me, because I am not going to mod it a lot.
What's a P50, I searched the web and saw pics of last Honda moped, maybe you were slamming Scarabeo?, OK with me, I got over them LOLs. Cheers
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B&L thanks for reply. I see Super 9 AC and LC and wonder if AC would be good. I am thinking AC would work well for me, because I am not going to mod it a lot.
What's a P50, I searched the web and saw pics of last Honda moped, maybe you were slamming Scarabeo?, OK with me, I got over them LOLs. Cheers
The P50= People 50!!!!
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OK, I get it, I can be slow sometimes.
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Also the air cooled motor can be tuned for over 15hp, no pig at all. The only difference is with liquid cooling there is less thermal expansion so the tolerances can be higher, and you can run at full load for longer without heat soaking the cylinder and locking up the motor. I've heard that the liquid cooled kymco engine was the bees knees back in the early 2000's in the euro racing scene. For daily use, air cooled works flawlessly.
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On the LC version, I like the rear disk brakes and extra swing arm support on the muffler side. But the drum brakes are more than adequate on my People 50, so should be the same on Super 9 AC. Also, I like the look of the open rear wheel. Some trade offs, but overall I think I like the AC better.
If it runs like my People 50 2T, that is good enough for me.
Raining here, so probably no riding today. Cheers
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Got in my Malossi torque driver 618317. Very difficult to see any difference in angle of 2 sets of slots, but i believe there is a slight difference between the 2. Based upon my experience with Kymco OEM torque driver and looking at the parts detail, it appears the slots with steeper angle will shift to higher gear sooner, but I am just guessing. I will just try it and see how it goes, then try it the other way, and see if makes a difference, all else being the same.
Had set back with tires today. I got in some really nice Heidenau K63 tires. Turns out 16" rims are a little harder to install than 12" that I already installed on my Super 9. Long story short, I got front tire on, but will not bead up, I was too rough with it. I even messed up the OEM front tire taking it off and it will not bead up either. I did figure out trick, have to take off on each side, then slip the rim through the middle, if you know what I mean. Normally, just take tires off on one side or the other of the rim, but these puppies didn't like that approach.
I really like look/ feel of these Heidenau's, wish I had some on my Super 9 instead of Avon Viper Stykes. Oh well, will order another front tire and try again. 1st see if I can get rear on OK, hopefully don't have to buy complete set and take it somewhere to have them changed out. Cheers
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Worked to install Malossi torque driver, appears was sent the wrong part. Has different dimension than OEM, a larger OD step at bottom so the spring collar will not fit flush to bottom with the pulley. OEM part does not have step at the bottom of the shaft with the guide grooves, spring collar goes all the way down and is flush at the top and bottom. I received Malossi packaging already cut open, so I think correct part was swapped for some reason. I called supplier, will report back how it goes.
Got my rear tire mounted up OK, so know how to mount them now. Cheers
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Appears there is new and old style Malossi torque driver 618317, and unfortunately I got the old style. Problem is, the old style has a lip that needs to be machined off to fit Kymco. There is thread on scooterinvasion site that discusses situation that is dated 2007. Plus, after you get the part machined, it leaks grease.
Current pics of this part Malossi 618317 do not have the lip and have two o-rings like Kymco OEM torque driver, so apparently Malossi fixed the problems. I would like to have the new part that fits without modification, but appears Malossi still uses same pn. I don't want to buy another one and get the same one I already have.
I do bolt-on mods only, no machining, way too much trouble for what I am trying to do.
So, I am done with CVT mods. Scooter runs great, wasn't sure I needed the Malossi torque driver anyway. So, for my Super 9 LC will not be buying another Malossi torque driver, and at this point I do not recommend it.
CVT mods as follows: Malossi variator kit 519988 with Malossi 9gr rollers that came with kit, OEM torque spring because Malossi White torque spring that came with kit is way too stiff, and Malossi yellow plastic torque controller 2512828 extra part not included in variator kit. I believe everything else is OEM. This set-up works really well with my other mods: Tecnigas Next-R pipe, re-jetted carb 108 main jet, 45 slow jet, and pod air filter.
Next, got to get my Super 9 LC running like my People 50 2T. Should be easy, just like People.
Got front tire beaded up too. These Heidenau looks awesome, can't wait to ride it, but still raining. Cheers
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Sorry to hear that some parts didn't fit. I had same problem with rear brakes, bought a Malossi kit which was supposed to fit my Kymco but it didn't. Luckily the OEM rear brake shoes are okay. The front brake pads were nearly completely worn out, swapped them to Polini ones and I can recommend them (I did 500 miles with them so far).
Awesome that you posted all the parts that you have installed, if someone will be looking here in the future they will have a good answer for their questions :)
My set is currently OEM variator, OEM torque spring, Malossi 7 gram rollers, Malossi torque controller 2512828. The bike runs great with Tecnigas pipe, OEM filter and derestricted CDI, regarding the jets I still have to check them as I don't know the size. Bike has smooth acceleration, has power to climb hills and the RPM's are always nice. The top end speed regarding to the Kymco speedometer also is upgraded thanks to the CVT upgrade by around 6 kmh (I have top end around 80 km/h now), although I haven't confirmed this with a GPS device.
Chaz, what pod filter are you using? Do you remember some specific part number?
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On the People 50 2T I was able to use straight filter and used one left over from a kart engine: Briggs and Stratton Part# 698973 Green Air Filter Briggs World Formula Same as #557043.
On my Super 9 LC I needed angled filter to clear rear spring: Uni 2-Stage Angle Pod Filter - 38mm I.D. x 102mm Length UP4152AST. The Uni part # for straight: Uni Filter UP-4152ST.
There are some really cheap pod filters out there that would probably work OK, but I went ahead and bought a Uni, which has a pretty good reputation for quality. However, you can spend a lot more. The Green Air Filter I am using on the People is probably 2x's what a Uni costs. I wouldn't buy more, already had it, so I am using it.
I am talking with supplier of the Malossi torque driver, he says contacted Malossi about issue, he thinks supposed to just bolt on, we will see. I like the part, I think it may have some advantage, but probably not huge for street scooter. If it doesn't work, I can live without it.
Sounds like yours is running awesome. Cheers
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Got to compare People 50 2T to Super 9 LC. My son-n-law rode the Super 9 and he's a little heavier, maybe 20#'s. I was surprised, Super 9 definitely has more HP. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.
I am starting a Super 9 LC CVT tuning thread. I got the Super 9 home and I am working on it now. Cheers